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Neo King Rose

Usagi's Rose
Staff member
Site Admin
Sep 13, 2008
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in my aesthetic
#21
depends on the dub, I think it's safe to say stuff like Cowboy Bebop have exceeded it's Japanese counterpart
that's rare but yes sometimes it does happen

that being said that's never happened in anything Sailor Moon related in English language while I like viz it's not anywhere better than the JP version
however it is the definitive English dub of sailor moon we have available right now and I say this as a fan of the old dubs
 

matt0044

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 3, 2012
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#22
For the most part, yes, their dub seems to be fairly faithful to their subs. (I won't comment on the voice acting and sound mixing here; I've made my thoughts on that subject quite well-known already.) But then they add in anachronistic insults to Mamoru's fashion sense, a joke they've really run into the ground. They've added dated meme jokes ("I heard her IQ is....OVER 9000!"). They, too, tried to correct the problematic aspects of the exercise episode, and have tried to rewrite dialog that was originally homophobic, which is commendable...but then they themselves had Usagi uncharacteristically tell the Cardian in the first episode of R she looked like a drag queen, thus using an identity largely associated with the queer community as an insult. They've had Usagi uncharacteristically swear at other times as well, and I'm sure there are other instances of characters saying something out-of-character. There have even been some minor character name changes (both outright changes and simply changes to pronunciation). You can't call your dub faithful when you've made that many changes. And if you're going to make that many changes, why not make more so that show comes across less awkwardly? The Viz dub is just too wishy-washy and forgettable.
To each his own but I feel like that running gag was done well because it was done sparingly and didn't overstay its welcome after Season 1. At least compared to DiC's more corny jokes being all over their scripts. Even certain other dub-only jokes weren't overdone and Usagi swearing was made for real pivitol moments, conveying the spirit of the original in terms of her being pushed to her limits ("OOC Is Seriously Business" for a reason, you know).

It's not perfect as you highlighted with Usagi's one comment but I feel there were more hits than misses as there tends to be in the dubbing process. Though I'm not sure what you mean by character name changes. That sounds like something on Toei in terms of what official terms are to be used internationally such as the "Legendary Silver Crystal" or "Malefic Black Crystal." It's a common thing nowadays like ODM Gear in Attack On Titan.
 
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#23
In this day and age, when a show is being dubbed for a home release and with the existence of Adult Swim I cannot say a mere translator and a dub scrip writer has any right to "rewrite" or "cut scenes" from a foreign show that is the product of a hard-work of so many people. Especially old show done entirely by hand where everything from designs to animation to plot-points clearly show it's age. If you think this show is broken and you need "fixing" it this is disrespectful in an era that you are not forced to by broadcast law. I am not talking about Viz dub as their changes are minor, but the idea a dub should change a piece of a foreign production - adapting jokes and make the dialogue sound natural is one thing, but cuts and edits are too much. If you find it that necessary - create your own shows. In the past it was needed to make a show more marketable as anime was a very new and unknown thing that you could try presenting as a Sunday morning show to market it, but nowadays it is not the same. With so many raunchy American stuff like The Simpsons and Family Guy existing, it is a bit xenophobic and double-standard. You are releasing it on blu ray/dvd instead of trying to make it work as something it was not designed to be.
 
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Jun 30, 2010
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#24
I definitely believe a dub can improve on the original material. I believe the DiC dub just did that.

However, you can't want a close dub and want a dub to deviate from the source to make it more palatable.

I do believe a proper dub is a complete localization, which is not merely translating the words, but translating the concepts, the ideas, and in many cases replacing aspects that are not natively understood by an average member of the general public. This also means changing plot aspects to make the show better for its target audience.

So, I have no problem with a dub that does wash away problematic elements in a culture. There's no reason we need have an "elephant" joke or realistic-looking guns without consequences in a product kids would watch.

The problem is that you should't market an altered product as an uncut, uncensored version of the show.

If you want 90's Sailor Moon as it was and not as you want it to be, you have to embrace the homophobia, the sexism, and all the unpleasant aspects. Otherwise you're sanitizing the product and presenting a false version of the show and proclaiming it the true version, even though you disgraced the actual 90's English version for allegedly doing this.

Modernizing Sailor Moon to make it more progressive isn't just making the show more "politically correct" as people used to tell me, but it's also changing a product of its time to a product of our time.
 

matt0044

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 3, 2012
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#25
but cuts and edits are too much.
Well, I wasn't really talking about visual edits so much as select line revisions with the animation and larger story intact. I'm talking about the little things that rarely ever stick out and may affect one's viewing experience for better or worse if at all.

Though Adult Swim isn't exactly terribly raunchy these days with Fire Force getting visual edits for television due to close up shots of lecherous acts.

even though you disgraced the actual 90's English version for allegedly doing this.
I should clarify something I've neglected. I've grown to appreciate localized dubs of yesteryear, particularly the ones that do their best to keep true to the original's story despite certain changes being "needed" to make. Digimon Tamers and Digimon Data Squad impressed me in this regard especially. Death would often be retained, the music would be well composed as well as scored and the voice direction felt ahead of its time.

DiC's Sailor Moon, looking back on it as of late, had a lot of elements that could've helped it stand on its own. The music was well composed and the voice actors were largely well casted. It's more the execution of these elements that marred what could've been a decent dub for its time. The scoring could be all over the place and the voice direction could be underwhelming with dialogue dragging it down further.

I mean, "Day of Destiny" really exemplifies everything that made it go down hill with or without certain broadcast restrictions. In comparison, whatever changes Viz dub changes hardly have a thing on what previous dubs employed aside from a surface dialogue level. DiC and Cloverway had potential with their dubs but felt like they were holding themselves back from it.

Perhaps a more deep dive into the "changes" I referred to in the original post would be prudent. I highly recommend this blog post here:

https://keyofjetwolf.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F157202839682
Or watch the redubbed episode for yourself:

VIZ: Watch Sailor Moon Episode 96.0 for Free
 
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MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
Mar 8, 2012
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#26
Though I'm not sure what you mean by character name changes. That sounds like something on Toei in terms of what official terms are to be used internationally such as the "Legendary Silver Crystal" or "Malefic Black Crystal." It's a common thing nowadays like ODM Gear in Attack On Titan.
They changed Mr. Kunitachi to Mr. Kokoritsu in episode 15.
They changed Shinozaki to Kenji in episode 49.
They've mangled the pronunciations of numerous characters' names (Jadeite, Makoto, I think Motoki got a bit mangled too, Kunzite, Berthier, Esmeraud, Demand, Helios)
They called Fish Eye "Fish's Eye," which, as with "Legendary Silver Crystal" and "Malefic Black Crystal," was apparently chosen to maintain terminology consistency with the then-current translation of the manga, which is now outdated, and not something I think they were mandated to do as I believe there are other instances where they didn't use what the manga translation went with (or maybe I'm thinking of Sailor Moon Drops). "Legendary Silver Crystal" is fine, but otherwise... In their botched attempt to be ~accurate~ they've just ended up dating their product.
 

matt0044

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 3, 2012
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#27
They changed Mr. Kunitachi to Mr. Kokoritsu in episode 15.
They changed Shinozaki to Kenji in episode 49.
They've mangled the pronunciations of numerous characters' names (Jadeite, Makoto, I think Motoki got a bit mangled too, Kunzite, Berthier, Esmeraud, Demand, Helios)
They called Fish Eye "Fish's Eye," which, as with "Legendary Silver Crystal" and "Malefic Black Crystal," was apparently chosen to maintain terminology consistency with the then-current translation of the manga, which is now outdated, and not something I think they were mandated to do as I believe there are other instances where they didn't use what the manga translation went with (or maybe I'm thinking of Sailor Moon Drops). "Legendary Silver Crystal" is fine, but otherwise... In their botched attempt to be ~accurate~ they've just ended up dating their product.
Interesting. Changing Japanese names into... Japanese names. Weird but hardly a dealbreaker.

Though again, I wonder if it was on the script writer or on the materials they were provided from Toei. If you look into these sorts of things, often the party responsible tends to be the Japanese clients from the studio itself nowadays compared to back in the day. This video goes into depth:


As far as pronunciations go, the names based on jewelry (some named after while others are more loose in the original) are actually not exactly far off. They're just different from how DiC spoke them. Well, the ones they didn't change.
 
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#28
I am not 100 percent sure but I think Shinozaki's name was written as Shinozaki Kenji, so it might be they made her use his name instead of surname. As far as I remember Kunitachi's name was never spoken in the Japanese script and the name was written in Kanji. I got to ask my teacher but I think both are possible readings. I am sure German dub used Kunitachi, though.
 
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MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
Mar 8, 2012
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#29
Since DiC called him "Ken" and other dubs called him "Kenji," it's entirely possible that "Kenji" came from an official source, but since such a source has yet to be made public, and since that name is not used in the Japanese episode itself, it's still a change.

As far as pronunciations go, the names based on jewelry (some named after while others are more loose in the original) are actually not exactly far off.
You pronounce a person's name the way they pronounce it. "JADE-ite" may technically be the ~correct~ pronunciation of "jadeite," but the character Jadeite clearly pronounces his name "JED-ite" in the anime, Crystal, the live action series, the musicals, etc.

"Kunzite" is pronounced "KOONTZ-ite," not "KOON-zite," both officially and by the character himself.

"Berthier" is pronounced "burr-TEA-ay" in the real world and pronounced "be-roo-chie" by the character herself. Viz's "burr-THE-urr" is horrendously wrong.

etc. etc.
 

Seira Hazuki

Lumen Cinereum
Jan 17, 2007
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#30
In this day and age, when a show is being dubbed for a home release and with the existence of Adult Swim I cannot say a mere translator and a dub scrip writer has any right to "rewrite" or "cut scenes" from a foreign show that is the product of a hard-work of so many people. Especially old show done entirely by hand where everything from designs to animation to plot-points clearly show it's age. If you think this show is broken and you need "fixing" it this is disrespectful in an era that you are not forced to by broadcast law. I am not talking about Viz dub as their changes are minor, but the idea a dub should change a piece of a foreign production - adapting jokes and make the dialogue sound natural is one thing, but cuts and edits are too much. If you find it that necessary - create your own shows. In the past it was needed to make a show more marketable as anime was a very new and unknown thing that you could try presenting as a Sunday morning show to market it, but nowadays it is not the same. With so many raunchy American stuff like The Simpsons and Family Guy existing, it is a bit xenophobic and double-standard. You are releasing it on blu ray/dvd instead of trying to make it work as something it was not designed to be.
I don't think it's that black and white. Anime is art, but it is also a commercial medium and if the animation studios cared that much about having it altered they would be very selective on who they license their show to. At the end of the day, it's all a business decision.

Nowadays, dubs that take liberties are quite rare (probably because anime no longer has the same cultural cache in the west as it once did in the '90s)... But they do exist. Glitter Force for example, which is very much in line with 4Kids/DiC style dubbing. And while Precure fans may have hated the way the show was edited, the name changes, etc. There's just not enough of them to justify a release faithful dub (or even a sub release)... It's just not as lucrative as targeting children in the west who probably are unaware of anime.
 

matt0044

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 3, 2012
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#31
Since DiC called him "Ken" and other dubs called him "Kenji," it's entirely possible that "Kenji" came from an official source, but since such a source has yet to be made public, and since that name is not used in the Japanese episode itself, it's still a change.



You pronounce a person's name the way they pronounce it. "JADE-ite" may technically be the ~correct~ pronunciation of "jadeite," but the character Jadeite clearly pronounces his name "JED-ite" in the anime, Crystal, the live action series, the musicals, etc.

"Kunzite" is pronounced "KOONTZ-ite," not "KOON-zite," both officially and by the character himself.

"Berthier" is pronounced "burr-TEA-ay" in the real world and pronounced "be-roo-chie" by the character herself. Viz's "burr-THE-urr" is horrendously wrong.

etc. etc.
Not exactly a "change" in the technical sense since dubs tend to not use the "Last Name Basis" that goes without saying in Japan. If anything, it's taking supplementary material into account.

Aside from Jadeite possibly, I think it's more to do with annunciations that they hear in the Japanese audio and try to sound natural enough in English.
 
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#32
I don't think it's that black and white. Anime is art, but it is also a commercial medium and if the animation studios cared that much about having it altered they would be very selective on who they license their show to. At the end of the day, it's all a business decision.

Nowadays, dubs that take liberties are quite rare (probably because anime no longer has the same cultural cache in the west as it once did in the '90s)... But they do exist. Glitter Force for example, which is very much in line with 4Kids/DiC style dubbing. And while Precure fans may have hated the way the show was edited, the name changes, etc. There's just not enough of them to justify a release faithful dub (or even a sub release)... It's just not as lucrative as targeting children in the west who probably are unaware of anime.
With new shows aimed at kids that are to be on TV or a streaming platform I can understand it to an extend. Not that PreCure needed any of it - with such a multicultural background kids won't be shocked to hear some foreign names and it is not a bad thing to learn some foreign cultural stuff = like dishes and such. Nothing in Pretty Cure really justified the changes, but I guess it can be explained. With Sailor Moon, though, we have a release that is supposed to be a collection item, despite the horrible video quality for the majority of the show, mostly intended to appeal t old fans with the specific promise of faithful dub. Like I said it is ok to adapt some jokes and dialogue to make it sound better in English is one think, but to alter stuff just because they don;t conform to modern political correctness is pretty different. Sailor Moon being released for home cinema with age restrictions doesn't have to be treated like some educational kid material. I doubt many modern kids under 12- 13 would find it appealing anyway. When a company decides to dub anime they should respect the cultural differences that come with it.
 
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matt0044

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 3, 2012
2,390
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#33
With new shows aimed at kids that are to be on TV or a streaming platform I can understand it to an extend. Not that PreCure needed any of it - with such a multicultural background kids won't be shocked to hear some foreign names and it is not a bad thing to learn some foreign cultural stuff = like dishes and such. Nothing in Pretty Cure really justified the changes, but I guess it can be explained. With Sailor Moon, though, we have a release that is supposed to be a collection item, despite the horrible video quality for the majority of the show, mostly intended to appeal t old fans with the specific promise of faithful dub. Like I said it is ok to adapt some jokes and dialogue to make it sound better in English is one think, but to alter stuff just because they don;t conform to modern political correctness is pretty different. Sailor Moon being released for home cinema with age restrictions doesn't have to be treated like some educational kid material. I doubt many modern kids under 12- 13 would find it appealing anyway. When a company decides to dub anime they should respect the cultural differences that come with it.
My argument was more to do with how the changes in episode 96’s redub were actually praised by many fans despite it being technically going against the idea of an “uncut dub.” This here is one example out of many: https://keyofjetwolf.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F157201712132
It’s how the lines seem to blur in that particular moment when it comes to what a dub can and can’t change.

I’ve grown to see dubs as more like adaptations where one that’s faithful to the story and spirit tends to be the one that shines the most. However, the changes made to the script from the big to the small can alter how one takes in the story and are not always a inherent negative.

Rather it can also depend on if this version has entertainment value into itself. If the voice acting is different, are they still well casted on their own? If certain dialogue is rewritten, is it well written or should they’ve left well enough alone?

The answers are rarely the same. Even with a vocal opinion denouncing these sorts of dubs, there are plenty who give pause and find this new interpretation interesting. Sometimes even preferable.

Also I don’t think that anybody on Viz Media’s team claimed that no liberties with the script would be taken whatsoever. The label of “uncut” referred to “ not pulling a Day of Destiny.”
 
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#34
Then these fans never wanted a faithful dub to begin with. They wanted a progressive dub and used the "faithful" card as an excuse to retcon Sailor Moon. That's precisely the opposite of following a creator's intent. At least I outright say that I don't care about how it was originally. These fans don't care, either, they just overwrite the original material with their own biases and are claiming that they are speaking on behalf of authenticity.

It's one thing to want a more accurate dub. I never wanted one, but I never pretended to want one.

But when you are praising changes to make content more LGBT friendly, that is the same "political correctness" that you fault the localizers for including, just wrapped up modern-day values. It's even worse because unlike then, where there were regulations and such that broadcasters are required to follow, this is completely voluntary. This, in my view, is actually worse than pulling a "Day of Destiny" as at least "Day of Destiny" went over most of the same plot beats, albeit modified and crunched up. Here, the actual plot is actually changed without anyone being the wiser.

If you're saying it's welcomed to make a problematic product more acceptable, then you cannot fault the DiC dub for doing that in the 1990s and you can't use today's standards to judge the prior attempt. Not unless 20 years later, you accept making more changes to the old Sailor Moon anime in a re-release to make it more fitting for its time.
 

matt0044

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 3, 2012
2,390
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#36
Then these fans never wanted a faithful dub to begin with. They wanted a progressive dub and used the "faithful" card as an excuse to retcon Sailor Moon. That's precisely the opposite of following a creator's intent. At least I outright say that I don't care about how it was originally. These fans don't care, either, they just overwrite the original material with their own biases and are claiming that they are speaking on behalf of authenticity.

It's one thing to want a more accurate dub. I never wanted one, but I never pretended to want one.

But when you are praising changes to make content more LGBT friendly, that is the same "political correctness" that you fault the localizers for including, just wrapped up modern-day values. It's even worse because unlike then, where there were regulations and such that broadcasters are required to follow, this is completely voluntary. This, in my view, is actually worse than pulling a "Day of Destiny" as at least "Day of Destiny" went over most of the same plot beats, albeit modified and crunched up. Here, the actual plot is actually changed without anyone being the wiser.

If you're saying it's welcomed to make a problematic product more acceptable, then you cannot fault the DiC dub for doing that in the 1990s and you can't use today's standards to judge the prior attempt. Not unless 20 years later, you accept making more changes to the old Sailor Moon anime in a re-release to make it more fitting for its time.
Yeah... no. It's not even close to being the same. Barely any overlap if any.

"Day of Destiny" gave the original two parter season finale a major overhaul if you were to really watch the DiC dub of it after the original. Scenes weren't just cut, some were rearranged. The rewritten script watered down any amount of gravitas that was in the original to make it seem like another fun adventure. Death wasn't just removed, it was like any amount of drama didn't exist outside of it being the final battle. Hell, there's even a plothole of how the girls got amnesia that wasn't in the original.

In direct comparison, Episode 96 is a meager filler episode at best that sticks out because of certain off-color dialogue from the protagonists. It might not be "offensive" in intent but it does feel like a rather poor attempt at humor. Viz Media's redub pretty much adapted the script faithfully but employed slight tweaks to the aforementioned off-color dialogue (of which you can see in the post I linked above) which was about 5% of that episode's story. If not less. They barely even come close to "Day of Destiny" which, again, removed whole scenes and watered down the drama.

Now, I don't deny that DiC and Cloverway were largely making do with the restrictions they had to work with. I've said it before but I have grown to appreciate localized dubs and how they too make do. That said, there's a world of difference between removing LGBT+ content altogether and rewriting a few lines that might reflect poorly on said LGBT+ content while not removing said depiction. Even if we are going with the excuse of how the 90s forced their hand, the way CWi in particular went about it was just plain tactless when it came to the whole "cousins" thing.

Now when it comes to wanting a "faithful dub," what most people mean by that tends to be less so "not even the slightest script adaptation" if some people have anything to say about it and more so along the lines of "a dub that doesn't try to make Sailor Moon into something it isn't." As far as Episode 96 goes, it's selected line changes are a drop in the bucket compared to the laundry list of alterations DiC alone made to just two seasons. Once again, the blog posts above detail the exact rewrite in question that were employed for those not in the know on what exactly was tweaked.

Now, putting how much a dub should change and keep aside, I won't say that there's no merit to debating whether a product of its time should retain its more "problematic" aspects from said time or if it should get with the times with re-releases. It is honestly something I think doesn't have any real clear answer even if I agree with this instance here. Does a new adaptation of a work from days gone by alter aspects that have fallen out of favor today (to say the least)? Do they keep it to do right by the beloved source material? That's... actually what this thread was meant to be largely about.
 
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#37
The topic is wheter or not a dub in general could "improve" on the original version. I don't think you can credit a duhbwhich is a mean of translation improve on the material it is translating. First I do not thnk a person or a crew of people have the right to give themselves improve on the work they are translating when you have one job - takigthe hardwork somebody alreadydidand translate in a different language. It is the same translatinga book. You make it available in another language. You might not support the author's opinion on stuff, you might fijd some inaccurate stuff in the original you might feel like fixing, but this is not in your authority. Unleass a certain legislation or certain legal regulations are applied you have no right alter a copyrighted material. It is one way of saying the dub feels more natural because the action takes place in this country or the translation is better than the subtitle version as more care is put into it. It is offensive, considering the significantly lower effort of translating a script somebody already wrote from scratch, or mimicing the voice and character work an actor did on their own. Making a revision of something in a form of reboot or remake where you create something of your own gives you the moral credit to say I did better job, but a dub or a translation has no right of such statement. Translation is more art than science and different languages work differently, but a translation shouldn't address anythijg but linguistic issues, especially political ones.
 
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flash over

Lapis Lunaris
Feb 7, 2015
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#38
Absolutely can. I prefer the dub of Crystal because the script is much better than the Japanese version

Same applies to the game Final Fantasy XII; the English script is vastly superior to the Japanese script

Then there’s Ghost Stories. Even Japan prefers the English dub of Ghost Stories lol
 

blondibear_17

Luna Crescens
Mar 3, 2017
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#39
There are dubs which I prefer due to the liberties they have taken with the script but generally this is not appropriate by today's standards. Now a days unless it's a very popular broadcast dub the show is already old news so people already know the material very well and when the material is messed with it's honestly distracting and upsetting as hell to be expecting a certain line and not get it. I think in some cases it's fine to pander to loyal fans of established properties in the west but when it comes to Sailor Moon in particular that doesn't seem appropriate given this is not what people were told they were getting.
 
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Aug 16, 2014
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#40
Then these fans never wanted a faithful dub to begin with. They wanted a progressive dub and used the "faithful" card as an excuse to retcon Sailor Moon. That's precisely the opposite of following a creator's intent. At least I outright say that I don't care about how it was originally. These fans don't care, either, they just overwrite the original material with their own biases and are claiming that they are speaking on behalf of authenticity.

It's one thing to want a more accurate dub. I never wanted one, but I never pretended to want one.

But when you are praising changes to make content more LGBT friendly, that is the same "political correctness" that you fault the localizers for including, just wrapped up modern-day values. It's even worse because unlike then, where there were regulations and such that broadcasters are required to follow, this is completely voluntary. This, in my view, is actually worse than pulling a "Day of Destiny" as at least "Day of Destiny" went over most of the same plot beats, albeit modified and crunched up. Here, the actual plot is actually changed without anyone being the wiser.

If you're saying it's welcomed to make a problematic product more acceptable, then you cannot fault the DiC dub for doing that in the 1990s and you can't use today's standards to judge the prior attempt. Not unless 20 years later, you accept making more changes to the old Sailor Moon anime in a re-release to make it more fitting for its time.
Thats basically is the same thing its hyprocritical.
 
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