Did Viz Mislead Us About The Necessity of Its Dub Name Choices?

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NeoJupiter

Lapis Lunaris
Feb 10, 2009
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#22
The dub names are ingrained in me and how I still refer to the characters so it would've been nice if they had used them but I dont think they were forced to use their Japanese names.
 
#23
The dub names are ingrained in me and how I still refer to the characters so it would've been nice if they had used them but I dont think they were forced to use their Japanese names.
I understand, my favorite dub names are Amy, Mina, and Michelle.
 
Nov 22, 2016
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#24
Apparently, the Mexican distributor didn't think so. :)

So far the consensus seems to be that Viz didn't outright mislead anyone. I disagree. I remember when Viz wouldn't outright state there would be no returning voice actors when asked prior to them announcing the cast when asked, which led some fans to believe some of the old favorites would return. They never did say, but that "I'm a businessperson" response from Charlene Ingram (and that horribly fan-dismissing, unprofessional remark from Robbie Draymond) in response to people who wanted the old dub and/or a new dub with old dub names wasn't just dismissive but suggesting they didn't have the leeway to make an uncut dub with Serena and Darien. This was a rampant belief of many old dub fans, which is why some decided to support Viz, because "their hands were tied."

This company has strung along the fans before and let fans blame Toei and Naoko Takeuchi (who I do have issues with for separate reasons) for their bad decisions. I'll never be able to prove it was intentional, but I can't help but think it was.
What did Robbie say?
 
#25
The dub names don't bother me. Amara is a very pretty name and I don't mind it as much (even though it doesn't really fit her personality) but Alex (Alexis), Kris (Kristina or Kristen), Jordan, Brennan...etc.

Michelle is fine for Michiru...it's just that the dub voice jokingly makes me think Usagi's mother alter ego is Neptune! Haha..

I think some goofy questionable names come from the early dub if some of the youma....and please...please...pretty please tell me they are changing...Mega Mars Fire Rings Flash attack..
 
Jun 30, 2010
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www.smcx.me
#26
What did Robbie say?
I thought it was in the 2014 Otakon panel, but it's not, and I can't find it. His social media people either scrubbed it from the Internet or my search capabilities have diminished.

Anyway, he said something to the effect that if people are getting hung up over the difference between Serena and Usagi they need to get a life. He outright insulted Sailor Moon fans but, of course, most fans took it as a compliment and endorsed it.

The only thing that I can find close is this other interview, where he's upselling Viz's dub at his employer's request, although his enthusiasm doesn't seem to be an act. Of course he's an actor, so he's paid to sell it, but reading in between the lines this guy does not like fans of the old dub.

Imagine if any recast actor insulted the fans of the old actor or old material; he'd be pilloried for that.
 

John

Luna Crescens
Dec 20, 2011
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#29
I don't really care about the situation with the names. We were going to get a new dub that was going to use the original Japanese names whether it was required in the license or not. There was enough fan demand for such a thing.

I do agree that in terms of overall fan communication, a lot of licensing companies have painted PNP and Takeuchi in particular as incredibly demanding and difficult to work with. Not sure how accurate that is.

I also kinda feel that Viz has been misleading when it comes to the first English dub, though. Do they not have the rights to it? Do they have the rights but simply don't have access to the episodes themselves? Is music an issue? Regardless of how anyone feels about the DiC+Cloverway dub, a lot of us probably wouldn't be here without it. I think it should be re-released. The fans can enjoy it as their definitive version of Sailor Moon while completists and hardcore fans can view it as a piece of history. I wouldn't mind a Blu-ray upscale or even an SD Blu-ray release, or just a DVD release if it'll keep costs down.
 
Nov 22, 2016
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#30
I don't really care about the situation with the names. We were going to get a new dub that was going to use the original Japanese names whether it was required in the license or not. There was enough fan demand for such a thing.

I do agree that in terms of overall fan communication, a lot of licensing companies have painted PNP and Takeuchi in particular as incredibly demanding and difficult to work with. Not sure how accurate that is.

I also kinda feel that Viz has been misleading when it comes to the first English dub, though. Do they not have the rights to it? Do they have the rights but simply don't have access to the episodes themselves? Is music an issue? Regardless of how anyone feels about the DiC+Cloverway dub, a lot of us probably wouldn't be here without it. I think it should be re-released. The fans can enjoy it as their definitive version of Sailor Moon while completists and hardcore fans can view it as a piece of history. I wouldn't mind a Blu-ray upscale or even an SD Blu-ray release, or just a DVD release if it'll keep costs down.
Toei is painted as demanding and difficult as well, but due to PNP/Takeuchi Sailor Moon is even harder to work than their other big franchises, like DB, Digimon and Saint Seiya. It seems like every international release is supposed to get final approval from Naoko, and according to a Spanish licensor... she sometimes puts it on hold for years. Almost like she forgot about it.
 

John

Luna Crescens
Dec 20, 2011
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#31
Toei is painted as demanding and difficult as well, but due to PNP/Takeuchi Sailor Moon is even harder to work than their other big franchises, like DB, Digimon and Saint Seiya. It seems like every international release is supposed to get final approval from Naoko, and according to a Spanish licensor... she sometimes puts it on hold for years. Almost like she forgot about it.
Yeah, I know these licensing companies have said this, but what I mean by accuracy is more like...are they referring to "final approval" from her herself, as an individual? Or do they mean "final approval" from her office? Because that can mean two different things.

At any rate, there are a lot of possibilities about Takeuchi's business decisions -- maybe she's more focused on her family because isn't her husband chronically ill? Something like that? It's possible that Takeuchi herself might not be the best person to run the business. But all the same, even if that's true, I think we should keep that in mind as a critique and not use it as an attack or as a way to demonize her. Not saying you're doing this, kevoso96, but I've seen people do it before.

Also, if you want to quote just one part of a person's message, you can just erase the rest of the message instead of bolding the one part you're replying to. In case you didn't know. :)
 
Nov 22, 2016
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#32
Yeah, I know these licensing companies have said this, but what I mean by accuracy is more like...are they referring to "final approval" from her herself, as an individual? Or do they mean "final approval" from her office? Because that can mean two different things.

At any rate, there are a lot of possibilities about Takeuchi's business decisions -- maybe she's more focused on her family because isn't her husband chronically ill? Something like that? It's possible that Takeuchi herself might not be the best person to run the business. But all the same, even if that's true, I think we should keep that in mind as a critique and not use it as an attack or as a way to demonize her. Not saying you're doing this, kevoso96, but I've seen people do it before.
Well, they always refer to "Naoko" or the "author" when they are talking about this "final approval".
I think she just isn't the best person to run the business. According to what I heard from people with close ties with a Toei licensing agent, she does stuff like setting the price bar pretty high even for the 90s episodes. That's damaging for Sailor Moon in countries where Sailor Moon was never a big thing, like mine. I don't demonize her, but I wish she stayed away from the powerful position she is in since the 20th anniversary revival. She would remain rich and respected as the creator anyway.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#33
I also kinda feel that Viz has been misleading when it comes to the first English dub, though. Do they not have the rights to it? Do they have the rights but simply don't have access to the episodes themselves? Is music an issue? Regardless of how anyone feels about the DiC+Cloverway dub, a lot of us probably wouldn't be here without it. I think it should be re-released. The fans can enjoy it as their definitive version of Sailor Moon while completists and hardcore fans can view it as a piece of history. I wouldn't mind a Blu-ray upscale or even an SD Blu-ray release, or just a DVD release if it'll keep costs down.
Someone on viz (Charlene?) did state they had the rights to the old dub music included. I myself suspected for the longest time the DiC music was an issue but this turned out to not be the case.
 
Jun 30, 2010
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www.smcx.me
#34
I don't really care about the situation with the names. We were going to get a new dub that was going to use the original Japanese names whether it was required in the license or not. There was enough fan demand for such a thing.
What I was wondering, though, was Viz playing a game to try to placate old dub fans by acting as if their hands were tied? The consensus is no.

I also kinda feel that Viz has been misleading when it comes to the first English dub, though. Do they not have the rights to it? Do they have the rights but simply don't have access to the episodes themselves? Is music an issue? Regardless of how anyone feels about the DiC+Cloverway dub, a lot of us probably wouldn't be here without it. I think it should be re-released. The fans can enjoy it as their definitive version of Sailor Moon while completists and hardcore fans can view it as a piece of history. I wouldn't mind a Blu-ray upscale or even an SD Blu-ray release, or just a DVD release if it'll keep costs down.
The new dub has ensured the old one never will be officially released. A lot of fans wanted and still want to paint this fantasy of Viz releasing something for the old dub fans, but it is a zero sum game. We aren't going to have both, since fan demand was for the uncut dub and even moreso for new subs for the Japanese version.

If completionist fans wanted old dub fans to have access to the old dub, fan noise supporting the old dub should have been magnified and bolstered before the license was granted. Now, it's far too late.
 

John

Luna Crescens
Dec 20, 2011
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#35
Someone on viz (Charlene?) did state they had the rights to the old dub music included. I myself suspected for the longest time the DiC music was an issue but this turned out to not be the case.
Thank you, Lemons! This is good information to have.

What I was wondering, though, was Viz playing a game to try to placate old dub fans by acting as if their hands were tied? The consensus is no.
To be honest I don't think Viz cares about us old dub fans. I consider myself one among you, to a degree -- I prefer the original Japanese version, but I associate a lot of nostalgia with that dub. And that's kind of the thing, too -- Viz knows that there are a lot of fans out there like myself who ultimately prefer the Japanese version even if we didn't despise and hate the 90s English dub. In fact I would say nowadays that most people have mellowed out regarding the old dub; even before the new dub was announced, you didn't really see that many angry threads and posts across the Internet about it. Or at least I didn't. So I guess Viz didn't think it was a big deal?

The new dub has ensured the old one never will be officially released. A lot of fans wanted and still want to paint this fantasy of Viz releasing something for the old dub fans, but it is a zero sum game. We aren't going to have both, since fan demand was for the uncut dub and even moreso for new subs for the Japanese version.

If completionist fans wanted old dub fans to have access to the old dub, fan noise supporting the old dub should have been magnified and bolstered before the license was granted. Now, it's far too late.
I get what you're saying but I don't agree 100% -- I think that Viz was never going to release the old dub before they released their re-dub, and I think a re-dub was on their minds as soon as the prospect of gaining the license became a possibility for them. As long as they have the rights (and assuming they have access to the episodes themselves), it is still technically a possibility and "fan noise" can still be generated. Is it likely? Not really. But I don't think it's physically impossible. At any rate, I think it makes more sense to bolster this "fan noise" AFTER they release their dub, because they were never going to release the old dub alongside or before their own dub.
 
Nov 22, 2016
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#36
How would Viz manage to release the old Classic and R dubs? They had plenty of cuts and transitions, the company would not be able to rely on the uncut masters they received from Japan. They would have to digitally restore the DiC footage. That would mean a considerable investment. Re-releasing the S/SS dub seems a lot safer.
 

Clow

Luna Nova
Jul 29, 2012
3,252
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#37
With news of the Mexican dub of Sailor Moon Crystal being aired, though, as cuau_cg mentioned, the old dub names are coming back in that version, something that so far has not happened with other countries' dubs. Before this, one could argue that "no name changes" was an unconditional point of getting the license.
I don't believe VIZ has lied.

The 90's version of "Sailor Moon" did not gain a new dub in Mexico. When Towers Entertainment released the boxsets, they had to use the exact same dub from the 90's with the old dub names. According to the executives, PNP/Naoko did not even allow them to dub the song "Princess Moon" or add any changes to the original dub. Because the characters' names remained the same in the 90's version, I think the Mexican executives were allowed to keep the old dub names.

Many distributors from Latin America (I believe from Mexico and Brazil) said that working with and pleasing Naoko/PNP is difficult. For example, it took over a decade for the manga to be released in Brazil. Here is a video from the Brazilian publisher of the manga; the distributor says that releasing the manga was very difficult and that his company was only able to release the manga because the author "softened her heart."

My impression, as far as licensing goes, is that the situation of each country is handled differently.

I seriously wonder how Argentina managed to release those "Stars" DVDs. :purpleghost:
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#38
To be honest I don't think Viz cares about us old dub fans. I consider myself one among you, to a degree -- I prefer the original Japanese version, but I associate a lot of nostalgia with that dub. And that's kind of the thing, too -- Viz knows that there are a lot of fans out there like myself who ultimately prefer the Japanese version even if we didn't despise and hate the 90s English dub. In fact I would say nowadays that most people have mellowed out regarding the old dub; even before the new dub was announced, you didn't really see that many angry threads and posts across the Internet about it. Or at least I didn't. So I guess Viz didn't think it was a big deal?
The fandom had mellowed about the old dub...until any efforts were made to actively support it. As long as it was unlicensed and the series was dead, it was just bursts of Internet infighting. Then when the manga was to get a new translation, this started a renewed push to make sure that the old dub was seen as toxic, malicious, and evil. Eventually, Viz got the license and acted on this behalf

Even if you personally wouldn't mind having the Japanese version and the old dub, the loudest voices were crying "We want a faithful dub" and actively attacking the old dub. The old dub needed people to support it as Sailor Moon to have a chance at it coming back; if Viz had still pushed its dub down the throats of fans then there would have been a backlash.


I get what you're saying but I don't agree 100% -- I think that Viz was never going to release the old dub before they released their re-dub, and I think a re-dub was on their minds as soon as the prospect of gaining the license became a possibility for them. As long as they have the rights (and assuming they have access to the episodes themselves), it is still technically a possibility and "fan noise" can still be generated. Is it likely? Not really. But I don't think it's physically impossible. At any rate, I think it makes more sense to bolster this "fan noise" AFTER they release their dub, because they were never going to release the old dub alongside or before their own dub.
A return of the old dub is not possible for the following reasons:
  • The vast majority of people who watched Sailor Moon via the old dub are no longer into Sailor Moon.
  • Many nostalgia fans actually don't know the difference between the dubs and think the new dub is the same show they watched.
  • Many of the fans who were against a redub swallowed their love and decided to join "Team Viz" and became fans of their dub.
  • The rest of the fans who were against a redub ended up walking away from the product from a consumer.

So, aside from collectors/completionists, there isn't much of a base to work with. Since the new dub is Sailor Moon, it's hard to explain to new fans that this isn't the Sailor Moon that came first in this market and is a retcon. It is impossible to make "fan noise" because the only way to do so is to decry Viz's product as illegitimate, and given this is what happened to the old dub to get the new dub in the first place, this strategy can't work because it's guarded against.

That's why the show should have never been licensed again. Unless Sailor Moon gets Solo-ed (which requires people turning their back on the franchise) there's no chance that Viz version would be displaced to allow an opening for the old dub.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#39
[QUOTE="Guardian Princess Nadia, post: 904021, member: 4742]
Many nostalgia fans actually don't know the difference between the dubs and think the new dub is the same show they watched[/quote]


I agree with this but only
to an extent. I knew a girl from middle school on facebook who posted her copy of the first volume blue ray release claiming she loved this show as a kid and I didn’t have the heart to tell her it wasn’t the same one (no clue if she found out the truth)

but my sister knew at the very least it wasn’t the same voices and was dismissive of the redub


It’s pretty easy to find at least pro-DiC people on youtube

So, aside from collectors/completionists, there isn't much of a base to work with. Since the new dub is Sailor Moon, it's hard to explain to new fans that this isn't the Sailor Moon that came first in this market and is a retcon. It is impossible to make "fan noise" because the only way to do so is to decry Viz's product as illegitimate, and given this is what happened to the old dub to get the new dub in the first place, this strategy can't work because it's guarded against.

.
I dunno Funi released a limited release of their old dub that was a collab with Ocean Group and Saban Entertainmemt and I get the distinct impression from personal experiences more nostalgia fans remember the Optimum dub of Sailor Moon than remember the original english voices of DBZ . (I’ve seen way too many fans believe Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat and co to be the og English voices)
 
Nov 22, 2016
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#40
I don't believe VIZ has lied.

The 90's version of "Sailor Moon" did not gain a new dub in Mexico. When Towers Entertainment released the boxsets, they had to use the exact same dub from the 90's with the old dub names. According to the executives, PNP/Naoko did not even allow them to dub the song "Princess Moon" or add any changes to the original dub. Because the characters' names remained the same in the 90's version, I think the Mexican executives were allowed to keep the old dub names.

Many distributors from Latin America (I believe from Mexico and Brazil) said that working with and pleasing Naoko/PNP is difficult. For example, it took over a decade for the manga to be released in Brazil. Here is a video from the Brazilian publisher of the manga; the distributor says that releasing the manga was very difficult and that his company was only able to release the manga because the author "softened her heart."

My impression, as far as licensing goes, is that the situation of each country is handled differently.

I seriously wonder how Argentina managed to release those "Stars" DVDs. :purpleghost:
Actually, France/Italy/Portugal/Germany re-aired the old dub and used the Japanese names in Crystal anyway. But I agree, each country, a different situation.