Do you think villains got redeemed too much sometimes?

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MariaTenebre

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 22, 2009
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#22
magic713 said:
Yeah, I think so. If used sparingly with good character development towards redemption, it could work. But sometimes the development is rushed in a two or three episodes. Everyone from the Dead Moon Circus (with exception of Zirconia) were redeemed, which annoyed me. Especially Nehellenia, who's story changed between SuperS and Stars from a vain woman who stole the dream mirrors of her followers to remain young, to a lonely woman who is deserving of a second chance as a child.

I am also not fond of how Sailor Galaxia was suddenly not actually evil but under evil's control, which we discover in like the last few episodes of the show. Throughout the season we see no evidence she was under the influence of another being as she killed people, and then we are informed nearing the finale that she's possessed. The revelation was so sudden, and was practically used to excuse all of her wicked actions. It felt like a forced revelation so as not to kill her.
I actually liked Galaxia's redemption. I thought that her story of being a strong and good soldier who sealed Chaos inside of her body to stop the Sailor Wars was a really cool idea and it was much better then her honestly emo story of the manga.

However I don't feel like they redeemed too many people most of the redemption stories I think were handled pretty well. Plus I think that more villains actually died and were not redeemed then vice versa. Also the manga is pretty much the opposite. The villains are on the most part like monsters of the day that are always killed. I think the only villains to get redeemed in the manga if I am correct were the Amazones Quartet. Although the Shitennou also turned good in their own way and became Mamoru's advisers as rocks.
 

Maetch

Luna Nova
Mar 31, 2010
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#25
To me, Usagi had every right to kill Beryl without hesitation in the anime (and Minako had no business doing it for her). This was the woman who destroyed the life she once led out of hate and jealousy, and now threatens to do the same thing with her current life. No other villain that Usagi faced since was ever more personal than Beryl and Metaria.

As others have stated, the other villain redemptions would have been better if there was at least more buildup to them over the course of the season and not just "Poof! You're good now!" It just makes the whole thing feel fake and unemotional.
 

Soter

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 2, 2010
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Ñ-land
m.youtube.com
#26
In the manga Galaxia was born alone and remained isolated for a long time in that deserted little wasteland of a planet. Like Neptune said once: "anyone's heart would become cold after being alone for so long." Add to that traumatic past an extreme power-hungry disposition, grandiose delusions of the God complex variety, some malicious manipulation from Wiseman, and magical powers and you have the perfect Evil Overlord. So I wouldn't say she was just "emo".

But I agree that a possessed/corrupted Galaxia was interesting, and I liked the fact that Usagi/Sailor Moon/Serenity peacefully defeated her by literally lending Galaxia a hand - while the bloodiest of battles failed to finish her - because that's the essence of Usagi's power and heroism. Galaxia's redemption was a logical outcome because she wasn't responsible for anything she had done after her sacrifice to end the mother of all wars. If I had a complaint about the final battle arc of the Star season was that it dragged a bit too much before reaching its climax with Uranus and Neptune's deaths, thought the manga was way duller TBH.

BTW, wasn't manga Galaxia a bit of a case of Redemption Equals Death? I tend to like these, however I've never thought much of Galaxia in the manga continuity. Even with the explanation of her past and bits of character development she was basically reduced to arcade game super-villain. I prefer other big bads from earlier arcs.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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skelenator-rainbow.tumblr.com
#27
Soter said:
BTW, wasn't manga Galaxia a bit of a case of Redemption Equals Death? I tend to like these, however I've never thought much of Galaxia in the manga continuity. Even with the explanation of her past and bits of character development she was basically reduced to arcade game super-villain. I prefer other big bads from earlier arcs.
Yup! Before she died in the manga she seemed to start realizing she had been wrong. And I completely agree with your feelings on the ending of the final battle. :D
 

CopeDog87

Lapis Lunaris
Sep 2, 2012
372
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Minnesota, United States
#28
imaginationgirl said:
I actual liked Galaxia in the manga,she was better. I failed to see how she was emo?
I have to agree with you. I preferred Galaxia in the manga too because unlike the anime, she was naturally evil and power hungry in her own right, who did not allow herself to get manipulated, and executed a well thought out plan to end up on top that wasted no time (whittling down Sailor Moon's team, crushing her emotionally by having her fight them, and then using her to take down Chaos so she would be left to rule the roost) vs. wasting her time by first using a previous enemy in order to awaken one star seed (her attacks could have done this without her) and then letting her minions waste her time by targeting the wrong people, episode after episode when the real star seeds were right in front of them the entire time.

I also preferred the Stars manga final battle to the Stars anime final battle because it was more epic on pretty much every level (I couldn't disagree with you more Soter). It had the team travel to the very place where senshi are born as their final battling place (some place other than earth for a change), had Chibi Moon come back and save her mother, had Sailor Moon take on her boyfriend and entire team pretty much on her own vs. just two in a group, brought the entire story around full circle by explaining where Sailor Senshi come from and how all of Sailor Moon's past enemies are connected, and sported a much more valiant Sailor Moon all together. In the manga she was able to bring herself to take down her whole team, actually hold her own against Galaxia and NOT let her bully her around, while still having her be empathetic enough to save her from falling. The manga also had her make the more epic leveled decision of destroying or not destroying the very place where stars are born (the Sailor Cosmos side story was great in itself) vs just having to kill Galaxia or not, and had her ultimately dive straight into the Galaxy Cauldron in order to save her loved ones.

Where as in the anime, the entire battle was done on earth, it was never explained what Galaxia was even going to do with all the star seeds she collected, had the senshi try to take Galaxia down in foolish small groups that were easy for her to dismember like insects, had her damage her own star seed / heart (which should have hurt, and more realistically killed her), and the day was saved by a once braver hero who was reduced to being a hypocritical sap, who could not bring herself to harm anyone in any way (even in self defense), who defeated her enemy with a hoaky "killing with kindness" handshake.

90s anime may have been the kinder version of SM, but I'll take her braver and less idealistic manga counterpart almost any day.
 

Soter

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 2, 2010
606
4
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Ñ-land
m.youtube.com
#29
Only because I think the outcome of the anime battle perfectly defined Usagi's character in that continuity doesn't mean I prefer that whole version over the manga. I just found the manga chapters prior to the finale monotonous and predictable, just as I said the anime dragged out too much. Anyway, that wasn't even the point of my post, just a side note... I'm prone to going off on tangents, unfortunately, but I didn't mean to digress and turn this into yet another general 90s anime vs. manga vs. whatever thread. God forbid.

Sorry for veering off topic, but I wanted to clarify that.
 

imaginationgirl

Lumen Cinereum
Aug 16, 2014
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#30
CopeDog87 said:
imaginationgirl said:
I actual liked Galaxia in the manga,she was better. I failed to see how she was emo?
I have to agree with you. I preferred Galaxia in the manga too because unlike the anime, she was naturally evil and power hungry in her own right, who did not allow herself to get manipulated, and executed a well thought out plan to end up on top that wasted no time (whittling down Sailor Moon's team, crushing her emotionally by having her fight them, and then using her to take down Chaos so she would be left to rule the roost) vs. wasting her time by first using a previous enemy in order to awaken one star seed (her attacks could have done this without her) and then letting her minions waste her time by targeting the wrong people, episode after episode when the real star seeds were right in front of them the entire time.



Where as in the anime, the entire battle was done on earth, it was never explained what Galaxia was even going to do with all the star seeds she collected, had the senshi try to take Galaxia down in foolish small groups that were easy for her to dismember like insects, had her damage her own star seed / heart (which should have hurt, and more realistically killed her), and the day was saved by a once braver hero who was reduced to being a hypocritical sap, who could not bring herself to harm anyone in any way (even in self defense), who defeated her enemy with a hoaky "killing with kindness" handshake.

90s anime may have been the kinder version of SM, but I'll take her braver and less idealistic manga counterpart almost any day.
Honestly I think you just summed up,the reasons I prefer Galaxia,and Stars in the manga. I mean Chibi Chibi is Galaxia star seed rely? :unsure:
 

Mamo Two-Face

Lapis Lunaris
Feb 12, 2012
995
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#31
I think both SuperS and StarS departed too much from the manga. Not that the others didn't, but in those two they changed what they should not have.
 

imaginationgirl

Lumen Cinereum
Aug 16, 2014
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#32
Mamo Two-Face said:
I think both SuperS and StarS departed too much from the manga. Not that the others didn't, but in those two they changed what they should not have.
I agree with this so much,this is why i'm grateful we have sailor moon crystal.The last two seasons rely did jumped the shark. The changes in the story,was so much it hardly resemble the manga. It was like they just took the names of those character's and made there own story. They changed,and leaved out interesting,and important manga plot elements. In favor of more childish,and less filling ones. Basically of all the seasons Star's,and Dream 's need a re adaption the most.
 

Sakka

Lapis Lunaris
May 7, 2020
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#33
I found that the redemptions (besides Demandes) worked up until the 4th and 5th seasons, when it started getting stale and overdone.
 
Nov 22, 2016
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#34
I found that the redemptions (besides Demandes) worked up until the 4th and 5th seasons, when it started getting stale and overdone.
Nehelenia had absolutely no reason for redemption. She turned her own kingdom into weird creatures in order to "stay beautiful". I guess they just redeemed her to showcase how much purity Usagi had within her, and that had already gotten pretty cheesy by that point.
 

Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
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#35
I found that the redemptions (besides Demandes) worked up until the 4th and 5th seasons, when it started getting stale and overdone.
Why is Demande a problem?

He never treated his followers badly, the worst he tried to do was to remove Rubeus from the position. When Esmeraude died he felt sad. Not to say the brother relationship.

His redemption makes a lot of senses because he was not a rotten to the core character.
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#36
As some in this thread have said, the problem isn't that too many villains were redeemed. The problem is that the villains were redeemed at the last minute and even when they lived, they did not have any impact on the series.

If there were to be a reboot of the 90's anime, one thing I wish for it to do would be to drop hints about the better nature of the villains before their swan song and for the villains who do live to actually stick around. As much as I love the Makaiju arc, I really hate that after learning their lesson, the aliens take the little sapling and go back into deep space. That is a literal 180 from the conclusion where the idea that the Makaiju needs love and the experiences on Earth were critical for the aliens to understand that after spending an endless time alone with only each other...I mean, going off into space means the abandoning of that. Come on!
 
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Slowpokeking

Luna Crescens
Apr 1, 2020
242
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#38
As some in this thread have said, the problem isn't that too many villains were redeemed. The problem is that the villains were redeemed at the last minute and even when they lived, they did not have any impact on the series.

If there were to be a reboot of the 90's anime, one thing I wish for it to do would be to drop hints about the better nature of the villains before their swan song and for the villains who do live to actually stick around. As much as I love the Makaiju arc, I really hate that after learning their lesson, the aliens take the little sapling and go back into deep space. That is a literal 180 from the conclusion where the idea that the Makiju needs love and the experiences on Earth were critical for the aliens to understand that...I mean going off into space means the abandoning of that. Come on!
That's why I like Demande's character in the 90s.

He did start evil, yeah unlike Hotaru anime Tomoe. But he also has some soft spot so he was not beyond redemption. Through reasonable process, not only he realized his mistake, but also sacrificed his life to atone it rather than "hi I'm good now let's make friends and forget it". This makes his character memorable and showed how strong the power of good can be. Also unlike the Amazon Trio and the sisters, he stayed dead.
 
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SILVER

Lumen Cinereum
Jan 7, 2014
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Dark Kingdom
#39
She was very emo she was basically a angsty girl who had it bad on her planet and basically sees everything as trash. I think that anime Galaxia was much better and more interesting.
I think that Galaxia was written as a subversion of the "Sailor awakening" trope the series establishes: She's a powerful warrior born on a bad planet with zero friends or support. While I don't think 90s Galaxia being a noble hero is bad, it was yet again another redemption and it felt like a copout. Galaxia's redemption literally killing her was much more shocking and interesting, as she comes to realize that her chasing power is why she's so empty and sees why Sailor Moon has been able to continue forward and is even compassionate to Galaxia (seeing Galaxia's loneliness and likening it to her own) despite the trauma that she's put Moon through.
 

Seira Hazuki

Aurorae Lunares
Jan 17, 2007
2,117
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#40
I think the issue is that Sailor Galaxia’s redemption in the anime had no significance in terms of any character development she has (she actually has none compared to the manga). She spends the entire time brainwashed with the anime not even hinting at it until the very end, which makes her redemption deeply unsatisfying.

With the other villains, this stuff is, for the most part, built on their characterization. For example, we see how much Professor Tomoe loves his daughter to the point that he’d willingly sacrifice himself to a foreign entity. It just gave the conflict a few more hues of gray, instead of just being this black and white conflict.

I think while it’s true the original anime might redeem its villains a bit too much, I prefer that over how completely disposable the manga treats them (with a few exceptions like Sailor Mnemosyne and Sailor Lethe, who happen to be the most memorable).