Do you think villains got redeemed too much sometimes?

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Apr 1, 2020
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#61
Look at the impact Demande's death had on both stories. In the manga, Demande's death serves to strengthen the bond between Usagi and Mamoru, which made him very effective as a villain. In the anime, his confession does nothing to erase his previous actions and it doesn't have any lasting effects on Usagi's character. She came out of the R arc the same person she did going into it. The whole redemption angle in this case hurt the story more than it helped.
I don't see how did it strengthen their bond, they are already lover to death. It's already been done to death in DK arc.

In Crystal, Demande's character was more complete and showed that Usagi was able to awake ppl's good inside them, even someone like Demande in the manga.

In the anime, his confession also showed that he had regain his heart and realized the path was wrong. And it was done by Usagi, it showed her will to trust in such ppl actually was the right way to go. As it was a big theme of R. Because of it, she continued that path and chose to trust Hotaru in S.
 
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#62
Actually even in the anime, Demande was the first non-brainwashed/possessed major villain that Usagi was able to convince and turn back. His character also had setup to show that he was not beyond redemption. His sacrifice also made it powerful compare to most of the later ones.
 
May 30, 2020
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#63
I had a sad enough time absorbing some of the villains' deaths like Eudial's ^_^' (still like to think she survived the fall somehow and just quit). Perhaps not necessarily more redemption but less death would be nice? Some villains could reasonably quit being villlains even without a purification. For example Kaolinite was content wtih just being Pr. Tomoe's secretary/housekeeper after her first death, and didn't care about being a death buster.
 
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Onuzim Ima

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Aug 11, 2010
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#64
I had a sad enough time absorbing some of the villains' deaths like Eudial's ^_^' (still like to think she survived the fall somehow and just quit).
@SpicyNoodle Personally, I also believe that Mimete was never 'actually' killed but rather 'digitized' (not unlike Flynn in 'TRON' or Jobe in 'Lawnmower Man') and is spooking around the Internet until this very day, kinda like some sort of virus. :keke:

Some villains could reasonably quit being villlains even without a purification.
As again with Mimi, who had more than enough Stamina and Showgirl Potential so she could've become a Celebrity of some kind and make a Living out of it.
 
Dec 7, 2009
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#66
One villain who died which I found kinda distressing was Rubeus believe it or not lol. He was evil to the very end and never showed any sign of possible redemption but his death was just so awful x_x
Dying alone in space, screaming until his ship exploded, after a brief moment of hope until it was squashed by Esmeraude laughing in his face and cheering for his death.

Holy mackerel. My jaw dropped at that scene. That's brutal in any show but positively shocking in a kids show.

Especially since the previous three episodes featured the Spectre Sisters all redeeming and getting happy endings.

I mean like he wasn't a very nice guy or anything but damn. I have to admit it was kinda upsetting lol. Too bad he didn't get to have a redeem.

(Not to mention his Viz voice has played a bunch of characters who I love tons so I was a bit biased in his favour because of that lol. As soon as he opened in his mouth I was like STEVE STALEY :D)
 
May 30, 2020
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#67
@SpicyNoodle Personally, I also believe that Mimete was never 'actually' killed but rather 'digitized' (not unlike Flynn in 'TRON' or Jobe in 'Lawnmower Man') and is spooking around the Internet until this very day, kinda like some sort of virus. :keke:



As again with Mimi, who had more than enough Stamina and Showgirl Potential so she could've become a Celebrity of some kind and make a Living out of it.
Mimete had a serial killer streak, i think it would be hard for her to lead a normal life without purification (or medication). The girl flipped from obsession over hunky men to vindictive disregard for their lives with disturbing ease.

But she was otherwise talented enough to be an idol. And maybe thats what it takes to succeed in showbiz, lol.
No, she deserves to die for hurting Michiru like that.
Eh, it was just a scratch, she could walk it off.
 
Apr 1, 2020
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#68
One villain who died which I found kinda distressing was Rubeus believe it or not lol. He was evil to the very end and never showed any sign of possible redemption but his death was just so awful x_x
Dying alone in space, screaming until his ship exploded, after a brief moment of hope until it was squashed by Esmeraude laughing in his face and cheering for his death.

Holy mackerel. My jaw dropped at that scene. That's brutal in any show but positively shocking in a kids show.

Especially since the previous three episodes featured the Spectre Sisters all redeeming and getting happy endings.

I mean like he wasn't a very nice guy or anything but damn. I have to admit it was kinda upsetting lol. Too bad he didn't get to have a redeem.

(Not to mention his Viz voice has played a bunch of characters who I love tons so I was a bit biased in his favour because of that lol. As soon as he opened in his mouth I was like STEVE STALEY :D)
Actually that scene was meant to let ppl feel sympathy for him, to add more human side for him. Because he was such a jerk so that scene had to be cruel to let ppl feel bad for him. That's why I like BMC because all of them are so human.
 
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Likes: Neo Moonlight
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#70
Actually that scene was meant to let ppl feel sympathy for him, to add more human side for him. Because he was such a jerk so that scene had to be cruel to let ppl feel bad for him. That's why I like BMC because all of them are so human.
Well they did a very good job lol. I almost felt sick when I saw that XD And yes, I very much enjoy the BMC too♡
 

Nadia

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Jun 30, 2010
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#71
Regarding the idea of redeeming the Death Busters members in the anime, wasn't it implied that the members of the Witches 5 lack heart crystals? Not only do all of them have the pupil-less eyes of those whose heart crystals have been taken, but when Eudial rigged the room to shoot at Neptune, Eudial was able to walk across that stretch with no problem. I can't remember if it was said in the dialogue that the bullets were set off by the presence of a heart crystal, which would suggest Eudial doesn't posses a heart crystal.

If I'm misremembering, please feel free to correct me. If the Witches 5 (and possibly Kaolinite) don't have heart crystals, then they don't even have the capacity to reform unless they have those, right?
 
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Apr 1, 2020
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#72
Regarding the idea of redeeming the Death Busters members in the anime, wasn't it implied that the members of the Witches 5 lack heart crystals? Not only do all of them have the pupil-less eyes of those whose heart crystals have been taken, but when Eudial rigged the room to shoot at Neptune, Eudial was able to walk across that stretch with no problem. I can't remember if it was said in the dialogue that the bullets were set off by the presence of a heart crystal, which would suggest Eudial doesn't posses a heart crystal.

If I'm misremembering, please feel free to correct me. If the Witches 5 (and possibly Kaolinite) don't have heart crystals, then they don't even have the capacity to reform unless they have those, right?
In the manga they were all perfect daimon. So it's possible.
 
May 30, 2020
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#73
Regarding the idea of redeeming the Death Busters members in the anime, wasn't it implied that the members of the Witches 5 lack heart crystals? Not only do all of them have the pupil-less eyes of those whose heart crystals have been taken, but when Eudial rigged the room to shoot at Neptune, Eudial was able to walk across that stretch with no problem. I can't remember if it was said in the dialogue that the bullets were set off by the presence of a heart crystal, which would suggest Eudial doesn't posses a heart crystal.

If I'm misremembering, please feel free to correct me. If the Witches 5 (and possibly Kaolinite) don't have heart crystals, then they don't even have the capacity to reform unless they have those, right?
Eudial said that anyone walking across the floor would be targeted other than herself. So the trigger had nothing to do with having a heart crystal. She also developed software capable of recognizing specifically the owners of the talismans.

As for whether they have heart crystals I dont know obviously, but i find it strange that anyone would create daimons that dont care much about their job (Mimete, Kaoli), or capable of love (Kaoli), or daimons that need training (Eudial mentions she had taught the other members of Witches 5). Seems unnecessary complex and counterproductive.
 
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Nadia

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#74
Eudial said that anyone walking across the floor would be targeted other than herself. So the trigger had nothing to do with having a heart crystal. She also developed software capable of recognizing specifically the owners of the talismans.

As for whether they have heart crystals I dont know obviously, but i find it strange that anyone would create daimons that dont care much about their job (Mimete, Kaoli), or capable of love (Kaoli), or daimons that need training (Eudial mentions she had taught the other members of Witches 5). Seems unnecessary complex and counterproductive.
You're right about Eudial. I do remember now what implied in a roundabout way that the Witches 5 don't have heart crystals.

When Tellu injected the plant to make a Hyper Tellun, it was to devour anyone with a heart crystal. It only started to attack her when the heart crystals she carried were released.

This implied Tellu would have been safe from the plant normally because she lacked a heart crystal.
 
May 30, 2020
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#75
You're right about Eudial. I do remember now what implied in a roundabout way that the Witches 5 don't have heart crystals.

When Tellu injected the plant to make a Hyper Tellun, it was to devour anyone with a heart crystal. It only started to attack her when the heart crystals she carried were released.

This implied Tellu would have been safe from the plant normally because she lacked a heart crystal.
Hyper-Telulun was said to react to pure hearts only, at least in my sub. If Tellu had a heart it was most certainly not pure.

I view them not having heart crystals as a possibility, but I also think they might be just bad humans, and I am more sceptical about them being daimons. I think its more plausible they are either possessed by daimons or just a bunch of immoral people hired and endowed with dark magic powers (befitting the name Witches), or aliens that aren't daimons. In particular Eudial is suspect because she doesn't have any magic powers to speak of. If she is a daimon she is a very strange one.

Kaolinite is an interesting case. She doesnt seem to know what a city tram is in ep. 99. This implies she is not from earth, or not from a modern time period. At the same time if she is a daimon, a daimon can apparently fall in love with a human. While he was possessed by another daimon, and this fact went completely over her head. She even hoped for reciprocation, why would a daimon care about such matters? This is quite bizarre. I am leaning extraterrestrial but not a daimon.
 
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Jun 17, 2019
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#76
I think the problem with the 90's anime isn't that they do too many redemptions but who they pick and choose to redeem in the first place, while most of their choices work, alot of them also come off as just really bizarre and forced.

For example it still baffles me to this day why 90's anime Beryl wasn't redeemed and that she was made even less sympathetic than her manga counterpart, when actually Manga!Beryl’s story would've fit better in the 90's anime while the actual 90's Beryl was a better fit for the manga. Same goes for Rubeus, why was he the only one of the clan not portrayed as even remotely sympathetic in the 90's anime? By contrast Manga!Rubeus is probably the only sympathetic Clan member, it's like their versions were switched.

There was never any attempt at redeeming Esmeraude, Eudial, Mimette or Kunzite either despite all 4 showing very sympathetic & relatable traits, yet Tigers Eye & Hawk's Eye get to ride-off the coattails of Fish-Eye's well earned redemption when they were sexist, pick-up artist creeps? Buh?

See alot of the redemptions just plain don't make sense and feel unearned, Galaxia being the biggest example of this and the worst offender, though honestly with her can you even really say she was redeemed when the 90's anime says she was never even evil in the first place and just "possessed?" Does her story even count as a redemption? :|

She was very emo she was basically a angsty girl who had it bad on her planet and basically sees everything as trash. I think that anime Galaxia was much better and more interesting.
At least Manga Galaxia actually had a personality and character, as opposed to her 90's counterpart who we know nothing about considering she was possessed by Chaos until the last few seconds of her screentime.

Another thing the reformed villians that don't die, they are all but forgotten. Why not use them in future arcs. Ali and An never comeback but they are in far off space so that excusable, but the Spectre Sisters they are turned into normal humans living in Judan as makeup sales women, what is their excuse? Why aren't the Amazoness Quarter appear in Stars like their manga counterparts, they even said they would all meet again.

At least Fairy Tail in most occasion after they reform their villains, they make use of them as allies in future arcs. Why doesn't Sailor Moon do that.

They rush there redemption stories with no real build up, and after that they are disguarded.
This is probably an unfortunate side-effect of the 90's anime itself being light on continuity. Each season is meant to be fairly self-contained with sparse references to the last compared to the manga's linear continuous story.


To me, Usagi had every right to kill Beryl without hesitation in the anime (and Minako had no business doing it for her). This was the woman who destroyed the life she once led out of hate and jealousy, and now threatens to do the same thing with her current life. No other villain that Usagi faced since was ever more personal than Beryl and Metaria.
No Venus definitely deserved that kill, it showcased her rightful status as Leader of the Inners and personal protector of her most precious person, the Princess. It was the perfect bookend to her training days as Sailor V, and reading the Dark Kingdom arc right after Sailor V makes her kill all the more satisfying. Plus it's shown that she was the one who killed Beryl in the past in the exact same way, so it's meant to serve as a parallel and echo the themes of the past inevitably repeating that the 1st arc tackles.

In the manga Galaxia was born alone and remained isolated for a long time in that deserted little wasteland of a planet. Like Neptune said once: "anyone's heart would become cold after being alone for so long." Add to that traumatic past an extreme power-hungry disposition, grandiose delusions of the God complex variety, some malicious manipulation from Wiseman, and magical powers and you have the perfect Evil Overlord. So I wouldn't say she was just "emo".

But I agree that a possessed/corrupted Galaxia was interesting, and I liked the fact that Usagi/Sailor Moon/Serenity peacefully defeated her by literally lending Galaxia a hand - while the bloodiest of battles failed to finish her - because that's the essence of Usagi's power and heroism. Galaxia's redemption was a logical outcome because she wasn't responsible for anything she had done after her sacrifice to end the mother of all wars. If I had a complaint about the final battle arc of the Star season was that it dragged a bit too much before reaching its climax with Uranus and Neptune's deaths, thought the manga was way duller TBH.

BTW, wasn't manga Galaxia a bit of a case of Redemption Equals Death? I tend to like these, however I've never thought much of Galaxia in the manga continuity. Even with the explanation of her past and bits of character development she was basically reduced to arcade game super-villain
Galaxia in the manga was sooo much more than that, in fact I contend that not only was she easily the most complex & well done villain in Sailor Moon, but in fiction in general, that's right you heard me.

It really takes a 2nd read through of the manga in order to be able to pick up on the subtext, but Galaxia is great not just for all the reasons you mentioned but because she perfectly encapsulates the themes of the Stars arc on how being a Senshi isn't how it's all cracked up to be and is ultimately a cursed existence. What's great about Galaxia is she's just as much victim as she is villain. Her planet & Star Seed was heavily implied to be one of those weak-developing planets that the Galaxy Cauldron sometimes spits out and has failure to thrive, through no fault of her own she's been cast into this miserable existence because of the very system in place, she is a victim of the system and is little more than collateral damage in the Star-making process so she developed an inferiority complex which shaped her beliefs on everything. To her, only one's Sailor Crystal and their power is worth anything while the human flesh is worthless, because that's basically all that's defined her entire life and shaped her experiences. "Reject" Star Seeds like her are condemned to a miserable fate, while "Powerful" Star Seeds like the Sol System Senshi get to live it up, is it any wonder that one's Sailor Crystal is all she'd define one's worth by? In her eyes she's a walking example!

But the really great thing about Galaxia is that she doesn't just take this lying down, oh no, through sheer will-power she manages to train herself & her Sailor Crystal to unfathomable heights, to the point where she's now easily surpassing even the "healthy" Star Seeds in power. She tries to start a revolution throughout the Galaxy, convincing them to revolt against the Galaxy Cauldron system and in return she'll give them Sailor Crystals and make them into Senshi, because everyone knows only they have any worth compared to lowly humans with regular Star Seeds. (And with some genuine Sailor Senshi like the twins Lethe & Mnenosyne she instead convinces them that a being like Sailor Moon who was lucky enough to be born with the most powerful Star Seed in the universe is the real source of all their problems and if they could just get rid of her, their unfair situation would resolve)

Despite the Cauldron having a clear system in place she refuses to be just a cog in it's machine and submitting to her fate, she attempts to take destiny into her own hands and take control of the very system that made her who she is. (and she's the one playing Chaos here rather than the other way around, who she also views as just another sad sack entity in the Cauldron's system) Galaxia's endless galactic genocide could also possibly seen as a revolt against the system, sure she's looking for the strongest Star Seed of the universe, a planet "worthy of her" but the fact that she seems to destroy every star that she comes across speaks to the sheer anger & grief buried deep down within her over the unfair situation she was born in and if all one's existence is determined by the quality of their Star Seed, then nothing matters, life doesn't matter, so she should just burn down everything this twisted system begot. She seeks out Sailor Moon purely because she's the owner of the Universe's most powerful Star Seed/Sailor Crystal but ends up learning an important lesson regarding the value of one's soul & identity, human bonds and the acceptance of the circle of life despite it's unfair existence for some like her, but ultimately it's too late for her and to be redeemed she has to die which makes for one of the most poignant scenes in the entire manga up to that point.

Galaxia is the perfect SM villain in particular because she serves as the direct anti-Sailor Moon and does what a villain is supposed to do, challenge the hero's core beliefs and be an opposite reflection of themselves and their foil. Usagi, through Galaxia realizes she could've ended easily ended up just like her and it was only through sheer luck that she happened to be blessed with the Sailor Crystal Star Seed, Galaxia also helps Usagi come to an important realization within herself that fighting won't solve anything, that each and every star is in the same boat and that they're all ultimately the same, even Chaos, just lonely Stars beholden to a system that keeps the universe in balance, nobody is truly the villain in this story, this is just the way the world runs and the key to personal enlightenment is the acceptance of this fact all while making sure to treasure those fleeting, human moments in between, something Galaxia was unable to do and grew bitter as a result but that Usagi won't allow for herself.

Galaxia as a character & Manga Stars with it's core themes in general is a masterpiece in writing and the 90's anime in comparison can't even begin to come up to it's shoelaces.
 
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MariaTenebre

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#77
I would disagree Tsundere I think we did get to see Sailor Galaxia's true personality just a more warped insane version of herself. For every part of Sailor Stars till the end it was Sailor Galaxia just in a more warped personality. It was only when Sailor Galaxia's Golden Bracelets were broken that Chaos took full control of her. So I imagine her personality was rather similar to what we saw. Arrogant with an elitist personality but at the same time with a sense of justice and a desire to protect people. I believe she would do anything to stop Chaos even sacrifice her life. Another difference between Sailor Moon is while Sailor Moon relies on her friends I belive that Sailor Galaxia would prefer to work alone. For one I think that she thinks that no other Sailor Senshi is capable of stopping Chaos as they neither have the strength nor intelligence to do so and another is if possible she wouldn't like to put another in harm's way or sacrifice them all though she would if neccessary to stop Chaos but in many ways she would prefer to be the one if necessary to give up her life to spare anyone else. So I think you saw what would be much of Sailor Galaxia's true personality just more warped and evil.

Also I really don't see Beryl as being that different in the 90s anime vs. the manga in terms of evil. At best I would say that she was harsher to the Shitennou in the 90s anime but even then she did many messed up things.
 
Jun 17, 2019
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#78
I would disagree Tsundere I think we did get to see Sailor Galaxia's true personality just a more warped insane version of herself. For every part of Sailor Stars till the end it was Sailor Galaxia just in a more warped personality. It was only when Sailor Galaxia's Golden Bracelets were broken that Chaos took full control of her. So I imagine her personality was rather similar to what we saw. Arrogant with an elitist personality.
Granted it was only a few seconds but from little we do see of her unpossessed she doesn’t strike me as arrogant or elitist at all, quite the polar opposite of her Chaos-possessed self in fact. She reads to me as someone absurdly gentle and calm/serene.

I agree with you about the part of her being self-sacrificial and thinking she could do it all on her own though.
 
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Apr 3, 2021
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#79
I guess it depends on which seasons and storylines they are trying to go by. I did like that they redeemed the Black Moon Clan. It did make for a good storyline. It was very sad to see Diamond and Saphir die though just when they became redeemed. As much as I wish they stayed alive, it would be way too cheesy and if the writers wanted to explore more storytelling, this would have been a bit more of an interesting approach. I would have loved to see more back story on Diamond and Saphir too. Their storylines were too rushed in my opinion.

Anyways part of my point is that, some people can be redeemed, some people become redeemed but die from being a hero, and some just can't get redeemed at all and they deserve to die. For example, Rubeus, because he was emotionally abusive and cruel with the Ayakashi sisters. It was especially sad for Koan, since he made her believe strongly in something that wasn't even real and took advantage of her emotions for him. She deserves better. With Rubeus's character, he seems to be incapable of love at all from what he appears to be.

However, if they did redeem the Ayakashi Sisters, it would have been interesting to see them in Sailor Moon S, sometimes hanging out with the Sailor Guardians. It would still be cheesy and be completely irrelevant, but having them be a cameo in S would have been interesting at least.
 
Apr 1, 2020
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#80
I guess it depends on which seasons and storylines they are trying to go by. I did like that they redeemed the Black Moon Clan. It did make for a good storyline. It was very sad to see Diamond and Saphir die though just when they became redeemed. As much as I wish they stayed alive, it would be way too cheesy and if the writers wanted to explore more storytelling, this would have been a bit more of an interesting approach. I would have loved to see more back story on Diamond and Saphir too. Their storylines were too rushed in my opinion.

Anyways part of my point is that, some people can be redeemed, some people become redeemed but die from being a hero, and some just can't get redeemed at all and they deserve to die. For example, Rubeus, because he was emotionally abusive and cruel with the Ayakashi sisters. It was especially sad for Koan, since he made her believe strongly in something that wasn't even real and took advantage of her emotions for him. She deserves better. With Rubeus's character, he seems to be incapable of love at all from what he appears to be.

However, if they did redeem the Ayakashi Sisters, it would have been interesting to see them in Sailor Moon S, sometimes hanging out with the Sailor Guardians. It would still be cheesy and be completely irrelevant, but having them be a cameo in S would have been interesting at least.
They probably went back to the future and lived with the remaining ppl of BMC.