Do you think villains got redeemed too much sometimes?

[MsImagination]

Listen i'm not saying,I don't like some villain get redeemed. Sometimes I feel liked they got redeemed to much? Like some of them,shouldn't got redeemed. I mean tasked the Black Moon Clan,Akyashi sisters nice.But than you had Diamonds redemption that was rushed. I know the classic anime was a story about friendship,but sometimes I think they overboard redeemed them.

 

[Death Metal Papillon]

Yes. They used the redeemal plot so much that I felt sorry for Beryl at end series. Even Nehelenia is changed to a misunderstood child queen from a Chaos reincarnation , Galaxia turned into a legendary hero from a multi-galactic terminator. You know what it was exact opposite on Beryl, she turned into an evil for evil from a former human who had obsessed with her love and corrupted. I like some redeemals but if only villains to be redeemed were chosen with justice.

 

[Find the Rabbit!]

I am a sucker for redemption stories so I ate this stuff up. One thing I liked about the Black Moon Clan, and I think they were consistent with in the anime, was that they weren't necessarily evil but they had been heavily manipulated by Wiseman. Compare Demand in the 90s anime where he wasn't really a bad guy, just driven by an unrequited love to Demand in Crystal/manga where he is more of a madman.

Beryl as tragic villain was more powerful in the manga/Crystal though precisely because there weren't so many redemption stories. It might be for the best that they didn't really elaborate on that in the original anime when you already have Nephrite and will be getting basically all of R.

 

[Buggsie blue]

I think some of the villains redeemed probably didn't need to be. None of the generals really needed to be, nor the death busters. But I think Nehellenia's backstory wasn't bad. It makes a little more sense to me to be evil resulting from your actions despite the good intentions rather than being evil because evil.

 

[Neo King Rose]

No far from it I liked redeeming villains
It made me care for some of the villains as well as the main cast

I love how Usagi sees the good in people and does her best to help them

 

[Black Heart]

oh goodness yes, so much so it got pretty tedious and predictable in the end, as others have mentioned we had the sisters, nephrite, demande and saphir, nehellinia, galaxia... the list could go on... not only did it make it cliché by the end, it somewhat ruined the integrity of the whole series's villains if they had to keep resorting to using the redemption story...once in a while its nice to see a reformation... but I like my villains to stay villains most of the time...

 

[The Blizzard Prince]

I liked the redemptions. I'm a sucker for development and emotional scenes, something those sort of scenes tended to do. They also helped make the characters more memorable, which I appreciated. I agree I think they did it a bit too much though. Like I don't think Nehelenia or Demand needed it, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I still enjoy their redemption scenes anyway.

 

[zttmoon]

I have no problem with redemption story, my favorite on going series is Fairy Tail and they redeem bad guys all the time, so you know where I am coming from.

But I hate how they do it in this series. There is no build up, it just happens. Almost every villain, shows no signs of character depth, they are just two dimentional villains, than when it time for redemption, they all of sudden have character depth. Sometimes even within a episode. Nephrite went from having nothing but destain for Naru and than one scene later all of sudden he has feelings for her.

Ali and An wanted to suck the enegy out of babies, and than they have feelings beoynd just selfishness, the Spectre Sisters showed no sign of any sympathic qualities, until it was time for them to turn good, even within the redemption, in Berthier redemption episode, Petz and Calaveras were so awful to her. And so on, they improve later on in later seasons, but not by much, the Amazoness Quartet weren't terrible heartless people, so that is a start.

That is not how you do redemption stories. Yes you introduce as straight out villains with no sympathy and redemable qualities, that is step 1, step 2 you slowly show some signs of sympathetic quality and / or show some signs of a good side, step 3 you mix up step 1 and 2 for a big, step 4 you redeem you character.

The way Sailor Moon does it, they start with step 1 and stick until the last moment, and than go to step 4.

It is like in Avatar: The Last Airbender if Zuko was more like Azula or even Ozai until he redeemed himself.

 

[MsImagination]

I have no problem with redemption story, my favorite on going series is Fairy Tail and they redeem bad guys all the time, so you know where I am coming from.

But I hate how they do it in this series. There is no build up, it just happens. Almost every villain, shows no signs of character depth, they are just two dimentional villains, than when it time for redemption, they all of sudden have character depth. Sometimes even within a episode. Nephrite went from having nothing but destain for Naru and than one scene all of sudden he has feelings for her.

Ali and An wanted to suck the enegy out of babies, and than they have feelings beoynd just selfishness, the Spectre Sisters showed no sign of any sympathic qualities, until it was time for them to turn good, even within the redemption, in Berthier redemption episode, Petz and Calaveras were so awful to her. And so on, they improve later on in later seasons, but not by much, the

That is not how you do redemption stories. Yes you introduce as straight out villains with no sympathy and redemable qualities, that is step 1, step 2 you slowly show some signs of sympathetic quality and / or show some signs of a good side, step 3 you mix up step 1 and 2 for a big, step 4 you redeem you character.

The way Sailor Moon does it, they start with step 1 and stick until the last moment, and than go to step 4.

.

I agree with you,a good a fraction redeems felt out of no where? Lot of them felt forces,and just suddenly the character had changed of heart. Which is very unrealistic,and kinda bad. I probably would had less problem with some of the redemption,if they were build upon like you said.And less them got redeemed.

 

[CopeDog87]

Yes, the redemption plot was overused in the 90s anime. However, I think there was some beauty in it, in the sense that growing up I learned from Sailor Moon that villains are human too, can have depth, make mistakes, and are the way they are for a reason. I think this plot especially worked well for the Akayashi sisters in the 90s anime and the Amazoness Quartet in the manga.

However, as I have expressed before on this forum, I got fed up of it during the Sailor Stars anime. During that season, Sailor Moon felt like she had to redeem and save everyone, and that even in self defense, it was never ok to harm or kill anyone (which on a personal level, I have to disagree with). When you are in a do or die situation, you more often than not do have the luxury of being able to reason with your perpetrator, and you have a right to protect yourself and others through violence.

 

[The Blizzard Prince]

I think the redemptions would've worked better had they built up to them more. You could tell it was more of a last minute decision, though I think some reeked of that worse than others. (like Demand, or the jarring "let's actually make Nehelenia sympathetic after all!" change)

However, as I have expressed before on this forum, I got fed up of it during the Sailor Stars anime. During that season, Sailor Moon felt like she had to redeem and save everyone, and that even in self defense, it was never ok to harm or kill anyone (which on a personal level, I have to disagree with). When you are in a do or die situation, you more often than not do have the luxury of being able to reason with your perpetrator, and you have a right to protect yourself and others through violence.

I do think there is a certain beauty to that decision with the final season, but I agree they went a bit too far with it. It also sort of conflicted with the previous seasons, and it's not like Moon had much of an attack that season anyway. They should've made one of her two attacks that season a killing one, and the other a healing one. That would've made her choice of not fighting more effective.

 

[Moon Star]

I always thought it was overused in the anime. I remember being about twelve years old and having feelings of, "Ugh, again??" when I learned that Galaxia was redeemed at the end of Stars.

 

[aceina]

sailor moon is a rare example of a series that does it properly

 

[magic713]

Yeah, I think so. If used sparingly with good character development towards redemption, it could work. But sometimes the development is rushed in a two or three episodes. Everyone from the Dead Moon Circus (with exception of Zirconia) were redeemed, which annoyed me. Especially Nehellenia, who's story changed between SuperS and Stars from a vain woman who stole the dream mirrors of her followers to remain young, to a lonely woman who is deserving of a second chance as a child.

I am also not fond of how Sailor Galaxia was suddenly not actually evil but under evil's control, which we discover in like the last few episodes of the show. Throughout the season we see no evidence she was under the influence of another being as she killed people, and then we are informed nearing the finale that she's possessed. The revelation was so sudden, and was practically used to excuse all of her wicked actions. It felt like a forced revelation so as not to kill her.

 

[Starpower67]

Yeah, I think so. If used sparingly with good character development towards redemption, it could work. But sometimes the development is rushed in a two or three episodes. Everyone from the Dead Moon Circus (with exception of Zirconia) were redeemed, which annoyed me. Especially Nehellenia, who's story changed between SuperS and Stars from a vain woman who stole the dream mirrors of her followers to remain young, to a lonely woman who is deserving of a second chance as a child.

I am also not fond of how Sailor Galaxia was suddenly not actually evil but under evil's control, which we discover in like the last few episodes of the show. Throughout the season we see no evidence she was under the influence of another being as she killed people, and then we are informed nearing the finale that she's possessed. The revelation was so sudden, and was practically used to excuse all of her wicked actions. It felt like a forced revelation so as not to kill her.

Yeah I kind of hated what they did to Nehellania in Stars arc because it didn't match up to her arc in Super S at all. First your right her motivation did change. Second why did her becoming a threat in the Stars arc suddenly awaken Saturn when she was she was just as much of a threat in Super S if not more so. Thirdly wasn't the whole point of her resealing herself in the mirror at the end of Super S so she could maintain her beauty? How suddenly she was able to maintain her beauty free from the mirror seal and without the golden crystal made absolutely no sense! Also wasn't Zirconia Nehellania's older self? So in a way Zirconia got redeemed to.

 

[zttmoon]

Another thing the reformed villians that don't die, they are all but forgotten. Why not use them in future arcs. Ali and An never comeback but they are in far off space so that excusable, but the Spectre Sisters they are turned into normal humans living in Judan as makeup sales women, what is their excuse? Why aren't the Amazoness Quarter appear in Stars like their manga counterparts, they even said they would all meet again.

At least Fairy Tail in most occasion after they reform their villains, they make use of them as allies in future arcs. Why doesn't Sailor Moon do that.

They rush there redemption stories with no real build up, and after that they are disguarded.

Of all the reformed villains, I thought they did the best job on was Fiore. The anime writers should have tooken notes on that, that is how you write a villain that is going to turn good.

 

[magic713]

Another thing the reformed villians that don't die, they are all but forgotten.

That is true. As far as future impact of the story is concerned, there's really no difference between dead and redeemed villains. Either way, we never hear from them again.

 

[The Blizzard Prince]

But sometimes the development is rushed in a two or three episodes.

I've always wondered if part of the problem was the fact they were adapting a manga still being made. Like maybe they kept them evil until they saw what Naoko would do with the characters before deciding their ultimate fate. Nonetheless, I'm in agreement that I wish the redemptions were built up to better.

Everyone from the Dead Moon Circus (with exception of Zirconia) were redeemed, which annoyed me.

I didn't like the last minute changes with the Trio, but otherwise it didn't bother me too much. It felt thematically appropriate for the season to me, like the only reason they were bad guys was due to an evil queen taking advantage of them. What did bother me was Nehelenia getting redeemed in Stars, since it undermined it.

Yeah I kind of hated what they did to Nehellania in Stars arc because it didn't match up to her arc in Super S at all. First your right her motivation did change. Second why did her becoming a threat in the Stars arc suddenly awaken Saturn when she was she was just as much of a threat in Super S if not more so. Thirdly wasn't the whole point of her resealing herself in the mirror at the end of Super S so she could maintain her beauty? How suddenly she was able to maintain her beauty free from the mirror seal and without the golden crystal made absolutely no sense! Also wasn't Zirconia Nehellania's older self? So in a way Zirconia got redeemed to.

I think the problem with Nehelenia in Stars was due to the staff changes between seasons. It's pretty disappointing since I loved Nehlenia in SuperS, since someone irredeemably evil in the 90s anime was pretty rare. As for things like Saturn awakening, my best guess is they just wanted to incorporate some stuff from the Dream arc that wasn't used in SuperS.

 

[MsImagination]

Honestly , I think part of the reason they didn't bring any redeems back. Is because they didn't have anything to worked with. Most the redeems were dead,and didn't come back in any way in the manga. Excluding the Amazon quartet,and the Shitenou acourse.

 

[CopeDog87]

I think the problem with Nehelenia in Stars was due to the staff changes between seasons. It's pretty disappointing since I loved Nehlenia in SuperS, since someone irredeemably evil in the 90s anime was pretty rare. As for things like Saturn awakening, my best guess is they just wanted to incorporate some stuff from the Dream arc that wasn't used in SuperS.

I have always assumed the same about the director changes between those two seasons. I've always been under the impression that the new director for Sailor Stars was probably an extreme pacifist, and his ideals were thus transferred over to the plot of the story in Sailor Stars. I also was under the impression that Toei had the anime do the Nehelenia revenge arc in a last ditch attempt to "make right" all of the things they left out of SuperS so they could even proceed with the Stars arc. However in retrospect, I don't to this day see why the threat of the Inners lives in danger from the Animates wouldn't have been enough to alternatively awaken Saturn and the Outers just as much as Nehellenia was. However, it didn't completely work, because some of the plots, such as Setsuna "borrowing" Hotaru and all of a sudden the four Outers living together seemed very forced and awkward. Where as of course in the original manga, it was a transition that made sense since Hotaru was an orphan after the events of the Infinity arc.

I for one think Queen Nehellenia was best portrayed in the Dream arc of the manga, as the dark reflection of Queen Serenity herself. Which is why, yet again, I absolutely cannot wait for Crystal to animate the Dream arc and hopefully finally get that entire season right 20 years later .

I am also not fond of how Sailor Galaxia was suddenly not actually evil but under evil's control, which we discover in like the last few episodes of the show. Throughout the season we see no evidence she was under the influence of another being as she killed people, and then we are informed nearing the finale that she's possessed. The revelation was so sudden, and was practically used to excuse all of her wicked actions. It felt like a forced revelation so as not to kill her.

What makes that whole plot even more jarring though, is if you think about it, Galaxia's star seed was out of her body as Chibi Chibi the entire time during the anime plot. Wouldn't you think that even if Sailor Moon had fought back and killed Chaos Galaxia, they would have still been able to revive and save the good Sailor Galaxia through Chibi Chibi, as she is essentially her heart? Or in an even more bizarre twist, wouldn't you think that when Chaos Galaxia shattered the Sword of Sealing and hurt Chibi Chibi, she would have also hurt herself?

I think if you take those things into consideration, Sailor Moon really had no good reason not to destroy Chaos Galaxia, other than not having to compromise her extreme ideals .