Doesn't this speculative idea make you jealous?

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rgveda99

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 5, 2009
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#1
Dragon Ball is such a healthy franchise that most of these speculations/concepts will come true in one form or the other. If only :usagi: gets a multiverse cinematic universe with Netflix spin offs with Parallel :usagi: that has more artistic freedom. I would certainly love to have the She-Ra writers deconstruct the :usagi:-verse.


Do you think we'll even get one if TOEI profits from the Eternal movies? Or is it just going to just make another remake of the manga for the next 30th, 40th and 50th anniversary?
 
Jun 30, 2010
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www.smcx.me
#2
We're lucky we're getting movies at all.

While Sailor Moon is a cash cow for Toei, it's not a prized bull. As long as PNP pulls the strings and has creative control, there's not going to be any expansion on this concept.

To be fair, this is in large part because of the fandom. The fandom, for the large part, took a "we want fidelity" approach to the product. Fans wanted Sailor Moon as is ""originally" was. Therefore you aren't going to get deconstructions. The fandom couldn't handle a dub that moderately deviated from the show without chasing away the people who enjoyed it. Why would it show up for a deconstruction? The fandom wants hyper-fidelty and thus Toei, and more importantly, PNP, will give it to them.

Then Toei did try to woo manga faithful with a new series. But it turns out the fandom really only wanted the 90's anime all over again. Does Toes own part of thre blame? Definitely. Crystal was substandard. But there were too many fans who acted like they only wanted to support the 90s' anime...even people who were supposedly manga enthusiasts.

So why would any company reboot, revamp, or expand this property if people are happy buying merch and arguing about translations until the end of time? If you wanted something different, you had your chances to support the different stuff. There was the old dub. There is Crystal. But the fandom has rejected both, and the existing fandom isn't enough to sustain high profile new projects.

The only way to reverse this situation is for the fandom to show that it will support an alternate take on Sailor Moon that doesn't involve "Moonlight Densetsu" and to recharacterize it from the way Toei intended it. But that means rejecting the status quo.

Nobody is going to do that.
 
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Rika-Chicchi

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May 7, 2009
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#3
PGSM is already a deconstruction - even a pretty huge one I'd say. It ostensibly started quite faithful to the manga in its early episodes, but then deviated more & more all the way to the last episode. Its rating was so-so, but still not a big failure & it managed to run for almost 50 episodes (i.e. a full year!) w/o being axed. Its merchandise also seemed to be doing quite well at the time. :)
 

Maraviollantes

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Jan 3, 2006
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Embelyon
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#4
The fandom wants hyper-fidelty and thus Toei, and more importantly, PNP, will give it to them.
This theory implies:
A) Toei and, more importantly, PNP, actually care about what the fandom wants.
B) At some point in time Toei and, more importantly, PNP, actually interacted with the fandom, made polls, participated in discussions, to check what that fandom wants.

Neither of these two assumptions sound even remotely feasible to me. :ninja:
 

Seira Hazuki

Lumen Cinereum
Jan 17, 2007
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#5
I think what Moonies don’t realize is that Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon are in completely different phases of their respective franchises. DBZ is literally in its 30th anniversary right now.

To compare them you have to look at the beginning of both of their respective revivals... Both of which started during the franchise’s 20th anniversary.

For starters, Dragon Ball Z commemorated its 20th anniversary with Dragon Ball Kai in 2009. Like Crystal in 2014, Kai was a version that was billed as being a more faithful adaptation to the original manga. However, the biggest difference is that Kai had an easier job as the original DBZ anime was already a pretty close adaptation of Toriyama’s manga, which meant all they had to do was cut filler, reanimate certain scenes, remaster everything that was left, and then rerecord all of the audio.

Crystal, the commemorative anime for Sailor Moon’s 20th and 25th anniversaries, didn’t have the same luxury as the ‘90s anime is a totally different beast compared to the manga. Regardless if they kept the original cast or designs, they would have to reanimate almost everything from scratch to match the manga. That’s probably why a Sailor Moon “Kai” doesn’t exist and instead we just have a “”””””remastered””””” ‘90s anime.

But back to Kai, despite it starting in 2009, the series covered the manga up until the Cell saga which ended in 2011. That’s three years of basically an old anime with a new splash of paint. Then it wasn’t until 2013, when the franchise had its first movie, Battle of the Gods...So It took the franchise five years to release any kind of brand new animated content. Kai relaunched in 2014 and then ended in 2015, followed by the Frieza movie in 2015 and the Dragon Ball Super tv series in 2016.

Crystal, while a panel-by-panel adaptation of the manga, is still brand new content compared to Kai and might as well be considered a new story since the Sailor Moon manga has essentially never been animated. Even from a timeline standpoint, the same way it took five years for Battle of the Gods to be released after the start of DBZ’s 20th anniversary, we are now getting the Eternal movies five years after Crystal began in 2014.

The only point DBZ has against Sailor Moon is that Battle of the Gods was at least a completely brand new story. However, (someone correct me if I’m wrong) the movie was the first time I think in ages Toriyama was involved. Similarly, Eternal is the first time Naoko has become directly involved with the Crystal brand in an official capacity. While Eternal is not based on a new story, if it’s successful and if the experience is enjoyable for Naoko, who knows if it can open the door to more material in the future.

...I’m sorry that I wrote this much, but the fandom’s woe is me attitude can be a BIT too much even when it’s justified (none of what I wrote touches on the shoddy production values of Crystal, which to be fair DBZ’s revival suffered through as well). But I think y’all are doing too much by arguing that Toei is convinced Sailor Moon fans don’t want new content...
 
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rgveda99

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 5, 2009
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#7
It also depends on whether Takeuchi wants new content to go with her new Porsche.:)
Fixed. :yoshi:


Just how does one say no to that when you have monthly royalties for you to splurge on. :wow:
 
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Rika-Chicchi

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May 7, 2009
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#8
^ Its exterior looks cool, especially the back design, but I don't like the manual-roof thing & not being able to access/see the engine. :confused:
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#9
This theory implies:
A) Toei and, more importantly, PNP, actually care about what the fandom wants.
B) At some point in time Toei and, more importantly, PNP, actually interacted with the fandom, made polls, participated in discussions, to check what that fandom wants.

Neither of these two assumptions sound even remotely feasible to me. :ninja:
I understand what you mean, and I did write as if I were taking it personally. I am. I admit that's the luxury of being a fan.

That being said, entertainment companies do "listen" to their fandoms when it comes to things like sales and gauging interest in potential new sources of revenue. It's likely not as direct as viewing forums, but there is research being done. For something like a new anime, they wouldn't just create it and hope people would come; they would determine if there is enough viability in such a project before committing any dollars, resources and, staff. That's how companies stay in business.

And there is evidence that fan feedback has an impact on an official product. Why else would there be yet another re-translation of the manga after the 2011 debacle? If PNP or Kodansha literally did not care, they would just slap "Spark Ring Wide Pressure" on all official English-speaking media and just use the old script for the revamped comic pages. Given that they are willing to put out more money for a new translation (for a niche product, no less ) shows that there is some effort into making sure things are right.

While Crystal's sales likely met expectations and did well enough to justify continuing, it's clear it was not a blockbuster hit. If it were, everything associated with Sailor Moon would be using the revamped Crystal designs.

People complaining about Crystal isn't limited to Western, English-speaking fans; from what I've heard secondhand, many of the same complaints are echoed in the Japanese fandom. If no one were listening, why did they get rid of the 3D transformations in Crystal instead of enhancing them? Why else would Toei go back to Kazuko Tadano for character design and intentionally try to make the visuals of Crystal's characters more in line those of with the old anime? Probably because they suspect that the old anime visuals would evoke nostalgia dollars...but how would they do that without feedback?

Again, Sailor Moon is a cash cow - a reliable moneymaker. With reliable moneymakers that don't show potential for growth but produces steady income you do what was done for Sailor Moon -- the bare minimum to keep the dollars flowing. That means you're not going to chase new dollars at risk of alienating your existing ones. If you're not getting that many new/returning fans but have an outsized portion of old fans who is reliably purchasing what you put out, then the answer is to "stay the course."

It also doesn't help that PNP has more control over the franchise than Toei does. That's why Toei puts more money into other franchises that will reap a greater profit.

Also, Seira Hazuki, much of what you wrote was basic fact and true, so I'm not going to quote it all. I'd also like to add there is another BIG difference between Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball, popularity aside.

For Dragon Ball, even though it went through a period where there was little animated content, it never went completely dormant the way Sailor Moon did. Even when it stopped airing on TV and movies stopped, there was tie-in material, things like the Budokai video game series which kept interest alive. There was also new animation like Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! even before Kai was released.

Heck, even though Dragonball: Evolution was a bad, bad movie, that an official, live-action Hollywood movie wasn't just planned, but made indicated that there was an expectation of growth.

By contrast, after PGSM (which people complained about being cheap back then) and the last of the old musicals in 2005, Sailor Moon was DONE. Internationally, it was worse as PNP got control over the franchise again and all the licenses expired. As a result, there was no one keeping the franchise alive but the fandom.

The only point DBZ has against Sailor Moon is that Battle of the Gods was at least a completely brand new story. However, (someone correct me if I’m wrong) the movie was the first time I think in ages Toriyama was involved. Similarly, Eternal is the first time Naoko has become directly involved with the Crystal brand in an official capacity. While Eternal is not based on a new story, if it’s successful and if the experience is enjoyable for Naoko, who knows if it can open the door to more material in the future.
The difference is Toriyama was and is remains hands off with the property, allowing TOEI to come up with ideas, and then even re-importing some of the "non-canon" ideas into canon. Even though he's more involved now creatively (partly to avoid more foolishness like Dragonball Evolution), he isn't super-controlling. Toriyama has also allowed others to draw manga with characters he created which, and is semi-grooming Toyble as a possible successor.

The biggest evidence of this is the new material we got, Battle of the Gods. Initially, in the early stages the name "Beerus" was supposed to be a take on "Virus" but somehow the intended meaning got misinterpreted, so as a result. Toriyama rolled with it. There was also a fairly extensive development process in which Toriyama was open to ideas. One reason why Battle of the Gods was so successful was because it wasn't the same old Dragon Ball, and both it and Dragon Ball Super (which is largely Toei going its own way beyond Toriyama's outlines) led to a soft discard of Dragon Ball GT.

By contrast, Takeuchi has been reported by multiple sources to be very demanding when it comes to her business and the treatment of her property. Has she ever let anyone else create a manga side-story that would become part of the Sailor Moon mythos? Sure, she has been reported to be receptive of fan work, but there are no signs she would ever open up her creation beyond what she already has allowed. At most, she'll allow short-lived performances such as the musicals and like the Universal 4-D ride.

...I’m sorry that I wrote this much, but the fandom’s woe is me attitude can be a BIT too much even when it’s justified (none of what I wrote touches on the shoddy production values of Crystal, which to be fair DBZ’s revival suffered through as well). But I think y’all are doing too much by arguing that Toei is convinced Sailor Moon fans don’t want new content...
In all fairness, I am engaging in assumption from an outsider's POV and I am grossly simplifying. But I don't think PNP or Toei perceives an actual market for new material for Sailor Moon, plus Toei is disincentivized from pushing Sailor Moon too hard when it has Pretty Cure. If they believe Sailor Moon fans wanted new content did there would have been something completely new for Sailor Moon animation-wise. Instead they're reaching to the past, a manga that will soon be 30 years old.

PGSM is already a deconstruction - even a pretty huge one I'd say. It ostensibly started quite faithful to the manga in its early episodes, but then deviated more & more all the way to the last episode. Its rating was so-so, but still not a big failure & it managed to run for almost 50 episodes (i.e. a full year!) w/o being axed. Its merchandise also seemed to be doing quite well at the time. :)
The thing is...PGSM didn't have much staying power, and it was clearly made on the cheap.

That's not to say it was bad, but as a live-action TV program, it would never have the international profit potential or impact of an animated series or movie.

I vaguely remember someone on this board writing that PGSM is hardly acknowledged any more officially, despite being all the rage when it came out. If PGSM had that much impact on the franchise, then the metaseries would have adopted some of the conventions it introduced the same way as it has with the old anime. Even the name Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon seems to align with the re-release of the manga, suggesting that the series was named after the changed official title instead of the metaseries title coming from the show. By contrast, the old anime has its imprint on very single iteration of the franchise that succeeded it.

Put another way, is there any evidence that a PGSM-like product would be received well today? If so, why not make an animated PGSM instead of an animated version of the manga?

It also depends on whether Takeuchi wants new content. :)
Agreed. From the decisions made about this franchise, one can infer she does not.
 
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Sep 6, 2014
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#10
For Dragon Ball, even though it went through a period where there was little animated content, it never went completely dormant the way Sailor Moon did. Even when it stopped airing on TV and movies stopped, there was tie-in material, things like the Budokai video game series which kept interest alive. There was also new animation like Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! even before Kai was released.
From my understanding there wasn’t that much Dragon Ball content in Japan between the time GT ended in early 1997 and when Yo! Son Goku and his friends Return!! came out 11 years later.

In the states it’s true Dragon Ball never really went dormant. Partially because it started so late (GT was more than halfway through its run in Japan when the first dubbed episode of Z aired in syndication in the US) but even after Funimation dubbed Dragon Ball, Z, and GT they went back and redubbed the first 67 episodes of Z, that were originally dubbed in Canada and edited down to 53, with their in-house cast under the uncut label. Then they went and re-released the series in remastered season box sets with the Japanese music being paired with the dub audio and newly recorded dialog for some of the characters (mostly for vocal consistency) and not long after that Kai happened in Japan and the tv edited dub for Kai in the US ended up being aimed at an even younger audience than DBZ’s dub due to the channel(s) it was broadcasted on (which I know a lot of Z fans hated but it did help introduce a new generation to Dragon Ball Z something I’d argue hasn’t really happened for Sailor Moon) and then of course the revival movies and Super.

And to compare Dragon Ball Super was far more popular and successful of a revival in terms of audience interest than Sailor Moon Crystal and the redub of the 90s anime.

And that is most likely because Sailor Moon essentially was wiped from existence in North America from 2004-2013. And the big revival with Crystal and the 90s redub wasn’t quite as big as TOEI and Kodansha and Viz probably hoped. Interest in both died pretty quickly from what I’ve observed. Most people, from what I’ve seen, didn’t even realize Sailor Moon was gone for a good decade.


One reason why Battle of the Gods was so successful was because it wasn't the same old Dragon Ball, and both it and Dragon Ball Super (which is largely Toei going its own way beyond Toriyama's outlines) led to a soft discard of Dragon Ball GT.
Off topic but I loved Battle of Gods because of how different it was from Z. All this absurdly high stakes being treated as a farce. Beerus is ready to destroy the world because Buu wouldn’t share some dessert. Bulma is giving the dragon balls away as a prize for a party lotto. The prophesied Super Saiyan God ends up doing nothing to turn the tide (as opposed to Z where it definitely would have)

I vaguely remember someone on this board writing that PGSM is hardly acknowledged any more officially, despite being all the rage when it came out.
I would argue it was all the range when it came out with the online western fandom because it was “new content”. The SuperS dub had finished 3-4 years ago, I think your average Moonie had given up on Sailor Stars being dubbed at that point and many had already seen it subbed.

I honestly don’t recall PGSM being that popular with the Western fandom when it was out with many being turned off by the “ cheapness” its sudden wide acclaim was fairly recent.

I have no clue how popular it was in Japan but from what I understand its 52 episode order was cut down to 49 and, as you pointed out,it has had no influence on the wider canon.