Dub vs Sub:Why do some fans hate on the dubs (both)?

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Dub vs Sub:Why do many fans hate on both dubs?

  • Subbed

    Votes: 11 42.3%
  • Dubbed

    Votes: 6 23.1%
  • Both

    Votes: 9 34.6%

  • Total voters
    26
Dec 3, 2017
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#62
If you don’t like hearing languages you don’t understand, fair enough and say no more — but I don’t think “I grew up with the dub” alone works because almost all of us old-time anime fans grew up with English dubs. :) It depends on what happened after you watched the dub.
Where the [deleted] did you get that idea that I don't like hearing other languages?
 
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Dec 3, 2017
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#63
If you don’t like hearing languages you don’t understand, fair enough and say no more — but I don’t think “I grew up with the dub” alone works because almost all of us old-time anime fans grew up with English dubs. :) It depends on what happened after you watched the dub.

I never said anything about not liking to hear other languages. It's just for certain shows like Sailor Moon speaking in an alien language that is totally distant and different to English such as Japanese just makes the characters sound annoying and what makes it worse is that I cannot understand any word they are saying! :angry: It just gets me so frustrated.
 

Kerochan no Miko

Knight Radiant
Staff member
Site Admin
Feb 29, 2004
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#64
It's just for certain shows like Sailor Moon speaking in an alien language that is totally distant and different to English such as Japanese
Okay, uh, just advising you that calling a language "alien" and "totally distant" doesn't sound...good. In fact, it sounds really, really insulting.
 

John

Luna Crescens
Dec 20, 2011
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#65
You’re misunderstanding everything I was saying.

Firstly...I got the idea because you said it yourself. You literally wrote that you are “not a fan” of listening to languages you don’t understand. Want me to quote it?

And like I said before, I've got nothing against subs. Just not a fan of shows speaking in an totally alien language I do not speak of and translated text that can mistranslate some of the dialogue.
I apologize if I got the wrong idea but you seemed to make it pretty clear.

Of course you have a problem understanding those languages, but that’s a different statement from not liking a language. What I’m saying is that a lot of people here grew up with the English dub so that alone isn’t a very good reason IMO, because a lot of us went on to watch the show and anime in general in Japanese. So what was different about your experience? That’s the key to the mystery.

It is totally fair if you don't like listening to languages you don't understand. I'm not knocking you for that. But you can like how a language sounds despite not understanding a word of it. Maybe you can’t personally, but it is possible. You can also, you know, always try to study and learn other languages...that's always a possibility, so you don't have this problem in the future. But that of course requires a lot of work.

I think that saying the characters sound "annoying" just because you can't understand the language they're speaking is just...kind of weird. I have heard all sorts of languages that I can't understand and I don't think any of them sound "annoying" but then again, that might be because I enjoy languages in general.

Also, I want to make a very important point:

You do not understand Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. because YOU DID NOT STUDY THEM; it has NOTHING to do with how "alien" or "foreign" or "different" they are. You can learn any language you wish. It is OKAY that you did not study any of those languages. Nothing wrong with that. But please don't say they sound alien or annoying just because you don't understand them...you don't understand them simply because they have not been studied. That's all. There is no inherent "alien"-ness to them.
 
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#66
Okay, uh, just advising you that calling a language "alien" and "totally distant" doesn't sound...good. In fact, it sounds really, really insulting.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to insult the language. I guess there are some words that are close to sounding English. I don't want to go through all the trouble of learning one language that takes years for me to just understand what the characters are really saying in an anime. The subtitles don't even help, they get in the way of what's going on and you have to pause the episode just to read the whole text and at times you may run into some inappropriate or nonsensical text. And the characters the voice actors give to can sound unpleasant or sometimes uncomfortable whenever they get into intense emotions. The male characters sound like they're angry who are bottled up with hatred and frustration or sounding sometimes depraved while the females can be obnoxious or just won't shut up. In English dubs, they can get quite irritating but at least I can easily understand what are they saying.

And yes, I already know that all anime was originally voiced in Japanese, but if that were the case anime would just stay and be popular only in Japan.

I'm not a hardcore anime fan who is obsessed with Japanese culture and watches subs over dubs because it was made first and the quality is better, I'm just a casual anime fan who prefer dubs over subs and collects various anime and cartoon paraphernalia. I do not want to get too involved into a language that is unfamiliar and complicated because of the language barrier.
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#67
Butting in here, because I see a few things I would like to address.

You’re misunderstanding everything I was saying.

Of course you have a problem understanding those languages, but that’s a different statement from not liking a language. What I’m saying is that a lot of people here grew up with the English dub so that alone isn’t a very good reason IMO, because a lot of us went on to watch the show and anime in general in Japanese. So what was different about your experience? That’s the key to the mystery.
I don't think it's fair to judge a reason for a preference as a good reason or a bad reason based on what other people did. Often preference is just that; preference. Not every preference has to be logical or fair, especially when it comes to entertainment.

Plus, there are a lot of people who did grow up on the English dub who never bothered to watch the show in Japanese. Just because the Sailor Moon fans who are active now did does not mean that the majority of fans followed this trajectory. Many people watched Sailor Moon, then when it went off the air, stopped looking at it and never looked back.

You’re misunderstanding everything I was saying.It is totally fair if you don't like listening to languages you don't understand. I'm not knocking you for that. But you can like how a language sounds despite not understanding a word of it. Maybe you can’t personally, but it is possible. You can also, you know, always try to study and learn other languages...that's always a possibility, so you don't have this problem in the future. But that of course requires a lot of work.

I think that saying the characters sound "annoying" just because you can't understand the language they're speaking is just...kind of weird. I have heard all sorts of languages that I can't understand and I don't think any of them sound "annoying" but then again, that might be because I enjoy languages in general.
For many people, including myself, we generally have to understand something to like it.

This isn't merely language, but preference in general. In order to like anything we have to know what we are liking. Take food for example. There are certain tastes I prefer and certain tastes I dislike, but for me, I do have to have know what I am eating in order to fully enjoy it. If you put an actual apple pie in front of me that for some inexplicable reason looks, smells, and had the texture of chocolate cake on the fork, but when I tasted it it was apple pie, the dissonance alone would prevent me from liking it. I wouldn't know if this were a chocolate cake that simply tasted inexplicably like pie, or a pie that was magically disguised as a cake. Either way, I'd be wary of consuming more, even if I knew it was perfectly safe. In order to like what I am consuming, I have to trust it is what it says it is.

That disconnect is the same for different languages. Being able to effortlessly hear, understand. and interpret is critical to the enjoyment of the work. Without the innate ability to understand, then you can't trust what you are watching is what is happening, and especially in a media like animation where sound helps define the visuals. If you can't trust the narrative, you can't suspend disbelief. If you can't trust the language, you can't like it.

You do not understand Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. because YOU DID NOT STUDY THEM; it has NOTHING to do with how "alien" or "foreign" or "different" they are. You can learn any language you wish. It is OKAY that you did not study any of those languages. Nothing wrong with that. But please don't say they sound alien or annoying just because you don't understand them...you don't understand them simply because they have not been studied. That's all. There is no inherent "alien"-ness to them.
If something is outside of your worldview or culture, it is "alien," "foreign," and "different." Suggesting that this person didn't study the language is just at the root of the problem is a bit disingenuous, since it suggests that any fault in not understanding is on them. Every person has their own perspective and cultural lens that affects what they perceive; one cannot understand everything, and I don't think one should have to understand everything to acknowledge something exists. There are differences between languages and cultures and to diminish these differences by urging study as a magical remedy minimizes the enormity of what culture and language entail.

Plus, linguistically, the difference between English and Spanish is minuscule than the difference between than either of them and Japanese or any other non-Roman alphabet-based language*. (Japanese and Spanish do have an uncannily similar pronunciation, though, for as far apart as the languages are.) Anyone who has even remotely looked into the languages can attest to this. To effectively study Japanese, you have to be cognizant that it is a completely different language on a structural level and not a one-to-one cipher of English. You have to think in an "alien" way conceptually just to grasp the basics (which is why I never could learn Japanese). Trying to learn Japanese by using English as a base is to treat it as just something you can "study" the way you would study mathematics or history. It doesn't work.

*Yes, I know there's Romanization, but I don't think even learning to use romaji qualifies as learning Japanese.
 
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Dec 3, 2017
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#68
You’re misunderstanding everything I was saying.

Firstly...I got the idea because you said it yourself. You literally wrote that you are “not a fan” of listening to languages you don’t understand. Want me to quote it?



I apologize if I got the wrong idea but you seemed to make it pretty clear.

Of course you have a problem understanding those languages, but that’s a different statement from not liking a language. What I’m saying is that a lot of people here grew up with the English dub so that alone isn’t a very good reason IMO, because a lot of us went on to watch the show and anime in general in Japanese. So what was different about your experience? That’s the key to the mystery.

It is totally fair if you don't like listening to languages you don't understand. I'm not knocking you for that. But you can like how a language sounds despite not understanding a word of it. Maybe you can’t personally, but it is possible. You can also, you know, always try to study and learn other languages...that's always a possibility, so you don't have this problem in the future. But that of course requires a lot of work.

I think that saying the characters sound "annoying" just because you can't understand the language they're speaking is just...kind of weird. I have heard all sorts of languages that I can't understand and I don't think any of them sound "annoying" but then again, that might be because I enjoy languages in general.

Also, I want to make a very important point:

You do not understand Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. because YOU DID NOT STUDY THEM; it has NOTHING to do with how "alien" or "foreign" or "different" they are. You can learn any language you wish. It is OKAY that you did not study any of those languages. Nothing wrong with that. But please don't say they sound alien or annoying just because you don't understand them...you don't understand them simply because they have not been studied. That's all. There is no inherent "alien"-ness to them.
I apologize to all Chinese, Japanese and Koreans out there. I didn't mean to call their languages "alien". I guess to me, languages are like mathematics. English and Spanish are addition and subtraction while Chinese and Japanese are algebra and calculus.
 

Kerochan no Miko

Knight Radiant
Staff member
Site Admin
Feb 29, 2004
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#69
Being able to effortlessly hear, understand. and interpret is critical to the enjoyment of the work.
Completely disagree.

Being able to understand, sure. That's what subtitles are for. But you can't tell me that it's impossible to like, oh, say, Amelie because I don't understand what the actors area saying in French, because that's really not true at all. It's completely possible to enjoy something even if it's in a language that's not one you speak - I mean, look at how ridiculously popular "Gangnam Style" was with people who probably wouldn't even be able to point at Korea on a map.

You don't have to somehow fully comprehend every nuance of a work to be able to enjoy it. I mean, there are so many books and movies and whatever where people draw out meanings that I would never have noticed, but that doesn't mean I don't like them. Liking something just requires me to find some aspect of the media that appeals to me in some form.

If something is outside of your worldview or culture, it is "alien," "foreign," and "different."
Word choice is EXTREMELY significant here. Foreign, sure. Different, sure. But calling it "alien" implies an "other"ness that devalues that culture/language, saying that it's just too different for me to bother trying to understand. It kind of borders on uncomfortably xenophobic.

Plus, linguistically, the difference between English and Spanish is minuscule than the difference between than either of them and Japanese or any other non-Roman alphabet-based language*.
Writing systems are not the sole indicator of a language family. English and Spanish are VERY VERY different languages - Spanish derives straight from Latin, but English is a hodgepodge of so many languages it isn't even funny. Yeah, they both use the Roman alphabet, but you really can't say that means they're not "different on a structural level" because they are. EVERY language you learn requires a special understanding of that language, if you want to be fluent in it.

If you don't want to watch stuff that's in a language that you don't speak, then that's your thing, no big deal. However, to claim that there's some kind of inherent barrier to being able to like something just because you have to use subtitles to follow the dialogue? That's not something I can agree with in any shape or form.
 
Likes: usachan25
Jun 30, 2010
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#70
Completely disagree.

Being able to understand, sure. That's what subtitles are for. But you can't tell me that it's impossible to like, oh, say, Amelie because I don't understand what the actors area saying in French, because that's really not true at all. It's completely possible to enjoy something even if it's in a language that's not one you speak - I mean, look at how ridiculously popular "Gangnam Style" was with people who probably wouldn't even be able to point at Korea on a map.

You don't have to somehow fully comprehend every nuance of a work to be able to enjoy it. I mean, there are so many books and movies and whatever where people draw out meanings that I would never have noticed, but that doesn't mean I don't like them. Liking something just requires me to find some aspect of the media that appeals to me in some form.
I'm not saying it's impossible for anyone to like material in another language, and I have enjoyed material in other languages. However, for some people, being able to innately understand is necessary for them to enjoy it. There are cases of people walking out of Pan Labyrinth because they did not know that the movie was not an English-audio film and refused to watch it on that principle alone. If something is inaccessible, it has a null value and can only be worth what the audience member puts into it.

Gangnam Style was popular, but for me and a lot of people, we liked it because of "Hey Sexy Lady" (the phrase I did understand) contrasted against the indecipherable lyrics and the craziness in the video. We didn't enjoy the song because of the lyrics or even the beat, but because there were "these foreigners doing crazy things = funny," a very problematic view, I admit. Much like the "Moskau" meme, the merriment comes from laughing at the "wackiness I don't understand" and not from a place of recognition. If anything, such popularity is due to people projecting our own biases and ignorance onto other media.


Word choice is EXTREMELY significant here. Foreign, sure. Different, sure. But calling it "alien" implies an "other"ness that devalues that culture/language, saying that it's just too different for me to bother trying to understand. It kind of borders on uncomfortably xenophobic.
Othering people within one's culture is inexcusable, in but not recognizing the difference of another culture comes across as erasure and a road to appropriation. To me, it is necessary to "other" separate cultures to respect that they are distinct. Without a mental separation, there are no boundaries.

Writing systems are not the sole indicator of a language family. English and Spanish are VERY VERY different languages - Spanish derives straight from Latin, but English is a hodgepodge of so many languages it isn't even funny. Yeah, they both use the Roman alphabet, but you really can't say that means they're not "different on a structural level" because they are. EVERY language you learn requires a special understanding of that language, if you want to be fluent in it.
Being able to read and write in a language that has a written aspect is necessary to fully understand it. Personally, if I can't recognize the symbols are looking at as letters, I can't associate it with a sound, let alone a meaning.

English and Spanish, whille different, have critical similarities.

Spanish is a Romance language, true, but the basic grammar and sentence structure is very similar to English, even though English is not a Romance language. The biggest difference is with regard to conjugation; Spanish requires a different conjugation for every tense for a verb based on the subject, but generally the underlying grammar is very much the same in terms of construction.



If you don't want to watch stuff that's in a language that you don't speak, then that's your thing, no big deal. However, to claim that there's some kind of inherent barrier to being able to like something just because you have to use subtitles to follow the dialogue? That's not something I can agree with in any shape or form.
Again, not for you, but for many people a language barrier is a dealbreaker. Otherwise there would be no point in dubbing foreign works or adapting or remaking them for a different market.
 

Kerochan no Miko

Knight Radiant
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Feb 29, 2004
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#71
Othering people within one's culture is inexcusable, in but not recognizing the difference of another culture comes across as erasure and a road to appropriation. To me, it is necessary to "other" separate cultures to respect that they are distinct. Without a mental separation, there are no boundaries.
Okay, this here is where I absolutely cannot agree. Other cultures and languages are just as human as one's own, and putting some kind of boundary of "they are completely distinct from me" leads to suspicion and distrust and, often, eventually hatred. There's a vast difference between respecting the fact that the Japanese language has large differences from English and saying that it's too alien to be able to comprehend properly. Learning another language isn't appropriating someone's culture, it's letting yourself try to understand their point of view.

Again, not for you, but for many people a language barrier is a dealbreaker.
And honestly I find it really sad that people are so turned off by the fact that a movie isn't in their native language that they refuse to watch it unless it's dubbed (especially when cultural references are toned down/removed, as used to be very common in anime dubs). Exposure to other cultures helps break down barriers between people and lead to better understanding of one's own place in the world as a whole.

(Disclaimer: I am fully aware that dubs are easier to understand and more accessible, especially to children and people who don't read fast, or who find reading subs uncomfortably distracting. It's a thing. I'm just disturbed by people who think other languages or cultures are just too weird and refuse to so much as hear someone speaking a tongue they don't understand.)
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#72
To cut in, I don’t think understanding the language is important to enjoy something necessarily, especially when subtitles exist, but I do understand its easier to get absorbed into something when you understand the language. I generally only watching anime dubbed. Sailor Moon is a major exception, only because the Viz dub is in my opinion garbage and the old dub is fine as a Saturday Morning Cartoon show from the 90s but is pretty distinctively different.


Live action is a different beast. Dubbing live action sounds awkward as hell. Subtitled all the way
 
Dec 3, 2017
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#75
You’re really...not helping convince people that you’re not xenophobic...


There’s a line between “I want to be able to enjoy something I can audibly understand “ and “this other language is scary and indecipherable”
Forget about all the things I said about it being alien and indecipherable. The actual reason that I don't watch subs, because Japanese can sound hostile whenever they yell or just get angry. It just scares me. :shocked: I just want to stop the sub and go back to watching the good old dub in English. :smug:

I'm not xenophobic. I have nothing against Japan or any other country. I am aware of their culture and I admire it, but I never want to go to those places because I have no business there. I rather stay in my comfort zone of hearing and speaking English most of the time because I'll start missing it if I stray too far from it. Ever heard of "xenoglossophobia"? That is somewhat different than xenophobia. Here's the link: Foreign language anxiety - Wikipedia
 
Dec 3, 2017
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#76
New #76
I just feel sorta "homesick" when I watch the sub. I've been watching popular anime dubbed like Sailor Moon along with Dragonball Z, Pokemon, Digimon, etc. for nearly twenty years and watching them all in Japanese just feels awkward and unfamiliar. I know it was the original but it's never going to be the same as how I first watched them because I'll always going to miss that familiarity of the characters speaking English.

However I am truly satisfied that Viz is redubbing Sailor Moon from beginning to end. I gave the redub a chance and it feels like the original I've watched, but now most of the voices are fitting and sound much better. :yay: They have consistent voice actors, the pacing is not so choppy and for the first time ever it's unedited! They're now dubbing Super S and soon they're going to do the two films S and Super S, the OVAs and for the first time ever in English they're going to dub the remaining fifth and final season of the series, Sailor Stars sometime next year. I can't wait for that! :wow:

I really never got into Sailor Moon Crystal because I have heard that it takes it from the manga (which I've never read by the way). Although its dubbed in English, I've decided not to watch it because I didn't like the new animation. Unlike the 90s anime which has a cartoon-like animation, this "new and improved" Sailor Moon just looks odd. They look too tall and scrawny, their faces look too realistic with pointed chins and their eyes are not as big with sparkles. Now they look like the girls from that other magical girl anime Pretty Cure. I've also heard that the characters are a lot different than the original anime where is mostly lighthearted with its serious moments, Sailor Moon Crystal looks like it's a lot more serious and not as lighthearted.
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#77
Forget about all the things I said about it being alien and indecipherable. The actual reason that I don't watch subs, because Japanese can sound hostile whenever they yell or just get angry. It just scares me. :shocked: I just want to stop the sub and go back to watching the good old dub in English. :smug:

I'm not xenophobic. I have nothing against Japan or any other country. I am aware of their culture and I admire it, but I never want to go to those places because I have no business there. I rather stay in my comfort zone of hearing and speaking English most of the time because I'll start missing it if I stray too far from it. Ever heard of "xenoglossophobia"? That is somewhat different than xenophobia. Here's the link: Foreign language anxiety - Wikipedia
I can understand, although to me, anyone screaming in a language I don't understand can be traumatic because screaming does "disrupt" the brain, as well as hearing vocalizations but not understanding them. It's not exclusive to Japan or Japanese, but a primal fear of not being able to communicate.

Watching media in Japanese when you are not a Japanese speaker IS an acquired taste. I remember watching untranslated DBZ in Japanese and thinking myself so much more open-minded for not needing subtitles...and not understanding or truly liking it, but thinking that by watching I would learn Japanese (I did not). Eventually, I lost interest in watching the show that way. Nearly 20 years later I do watch anime with subtitles and love it, because when reading the words, I literally don't hear the characters and their sounds become meaningless background noise (if it weren't for the memes, I wouldn't even pay attention to what the utterances actually were) , even though I would prefer to watch a dub. However, I have no burning desire to watch anime subbed, and usually choose it because it's the free option.

Even though this is at a point where it will come down to "agree to disagree," this is not "hate," dislike, or deeming anyone less "human." To me, acknowledging that people are NOT me and thus separate from my being is treating them the way I would like to be treated.

And honestly I find it really sad that people are so turned off by the fact that a movie isn't in their native language that they refuse to watch it unless it's dubbed (especially when cultural references are toned down/removed, as used to be very common in anime dubs). Exposure to other cultures helps break down barriers between people and lead to better understanding of one's own place in the world as a whole.
Exposure to other cultures doesn't remove barriers. If anything, research has shown that exposing people to other cultures can cause a backlash and strengthen their initial beliefs. Technically, when armies of different cultures meet each other in ground combat , they are exposed to each other...violently.

Furthermore, mainstream anime aimed at children is not the medium to use to connect with real people. It turns people into caricatures.

I wouldn't want someone presuming to learn about the American experience through Scooby Doo and Looney Tunes. All that does is reinforce stereotypes and devalues the experience of people, I don't want to be "understood" through a "celebrity" or "fictional character." I want someone to actually do research. Connecting to me as an American through Captain America isn't connecting to me at all; if anything it's marginalizing me even further given that I am nothing like him.

(Disclaimer: I am fully aware that dubs are easier to understand and more accessible, especially to children and people who don't read fast, or who find reading subs uncomfortably distracting. It's a thing. I'm just disturbed by people who think other languages or cultures are just too weird and refuse to so much as hear someone speaking a tongue they don't understand.)
What I'm getting at is that it's not necessarily active refusal but just disinterest. Why can't dubs cater to those who are disinterested, since the interested parties would choose the sub anyway?
 
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Feb 10, 2019
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#78
I vote for both the sub and dub versions because they are both amazing. To be honest when it comes to the dub version, I prefer the Viz Media dub because it's my favorite Sailor Moon English dub.
 
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#79
I definitely prefer the original subtitled version of Sailor Moon. The voices are just so classic and appropriate for the characters to me, not to mention I prefer subtitled anime in general. That said, I think the new Viz dub is okay, and quite competent -- it's just not what I prefer to watch.

I don't like the original DiC/Cloverway dubs due to censorship and rewritten dialogue.
 

julayla

Luna Nova
Feb 9, 2018
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#80
To be fair, I honestly tried to watch the Viz dub the second time. I struggled with each episode's voice of the English, especially the "bilingual language episode turned educate episode". And well...I wanted to like it, I wanted to tolerate it...but I just can't. I honestly can't. :blue: Everyone who I knew expected me to enjoy it and when I struggle to like it by force, I didn't feel good and had to lie on liking it just to please everyone who does enjoy the Viz voices.