Is Sailor Moon becoming a queer icon?

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blondibear_17

Luna Crescens
Mar 3, 2017
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#41
I think the Sailor Moon anime should've made fun of Dragon Ball too. XD


Not to mention that it's adapted from a manga by a female manga writer. lol
I think the Sailor Moon anime should've made fun of Dragon Ball too. XD


Not to mention that it's adapted from a manga by a female manga writer. lol
Haha I don't know how that would have fit into Sailor Moon at any point but I honestly hope that when they get to dubbing those episodes of Super that they have the sense to do some really meta casting if they could get somebody who has worked on some iteration of the Sailor Moon dub that would be great.
 

Rika-Chicchi

Staff member
Site Admin
May 7, 2009
36,853
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#42
Haha I don't know how that would have fit into Sailor Moon at any point but I honestly hope that when they get to dubbing those episodes of Super that they have the sense to do some really meta casting if they could get somebody who has worked on some iteration of the Sailor Moon dub that would be great.
The Sailor Moon anime has parodied Crayon Shin-chan, so I think they could somehow do the similar thing on Dragon Ball if they really wanted to. lol
 
Jun 30, 2010
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www.smcx.me
#43
This notion is quite common and I find it somewhat offensive. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to say there is something bad being gay, it is just don't like the labels some people put on male Sailor Moon fans specifically. I remember my middle school crush. She was a fan of the franchise just like me and we talked about it, sharing tape records of episodes and stuff, but she clearly friend zoned me. Years later we talked how she had a crush on me as well, but because I liked Sailor Moon she thought I was gay, so she never considered being more than friends. I guess some of the fanbase has different sexuality, but as a straight male representive I am agains this prejudice and abit sexist for people to assume a guy must be gay just because he enjoys a shoujo anime. Nobody assumes that for girls watching shounen after all. I know Sailor Moon help lots of queer kids to come in terms with their sexuality and this is one more reason to love this franchise, but stereotyping is bad.
You do raise an important point. As Sailor Moon has become more and more of a feminist and LGBT icon, this does make the show and fanbase less accessible to those outside of those demographics, to the point where straight men can't be seen as liking Sailor Moon unless they are either actually not straight or just perverted. There is a danger in this self-directed marginalization, which takes a show from everyone and instead makes it for only a select crowd. In a sense that is the opposite of progress.

As Rika mentioned, there is a tremendous double-standard about girls liking boy shows and boys liking girl shows, and there is some validity to the demographics and marketing tactics involved. Even in cases of MLP, where straight men who are outside the target demographic enjoy the show, these fans are also mocked and made fun of. Toxic masculinity hurts males and prevents them from enjoying female things, and it doesn't help when the fandom itself tries to determine who should and shouldn't be able to like it.

I'm disappointed with how Sailor Moon is now marketed in the West. While Sailor Moon was marketed to girls in the West, too, at first it flopped hard with the bad timeslot and the girls to buy the toys. The franchise got its biggest boosts when it aired on USA as part of the morning Action Extreme team and Toonami, both of which were blocks which did skew towards boys. However, instead of keeping this boy-skewing track, the show went off the air, the license expired, and the franchise went dormant until revived via the manga re-release. Now everything is girly again. You can even see in the difference between the old and new international logos how Sailor Moon was to be marketed. The old logo was generic and for all ages. The new logo is clearly feminine and to emphasize the "pretty" parts of the franchise, which limits male interaction but tries to encourage female interaction.

"Buffy: the Vampire Slayer" is a girly show and it is a show that straight men love and are vocal about it.
Buffy is nowhere near a "girly" show.

Despite it being a supernatural soap opera, the horror and superheroic elements are definitely intended for a male audience. You can tell this just from the logo. Generally, horror is not marketed to girls any more than romance is marketed to boys.

That's not to say girls didn't watch it or become a vital part of the audience, but Buffy, in spite of its progressive (at the time) messages, was aimed for young men. That's why it could have such the appeal that it did and still does.

It's the same reason why franchises aimed at male audiences tend to outperform those aimed at female audiences, with rare exceptions. If you aim for male, you tend to get females, too. If you aim for female, then men will be driven off.
 
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Rika-Chicchi

Staff member
Site Admin
May 7, 2009
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#44
It's the same reason why franchises aimed at male audiences tend to outperform those aimed at female audiences, with rare exceptions. If you aim for male, you tend to get females, too. If you aim for female, then men will be driven off.
This. And I also agree w/ the other parts of your preceding post (but not for those concerning the dub, on which I have no opinions since I'm not familiar w/ the dub). :)
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#45
While the old dub and Sailor Moon in the West are intertwined, I should be clear I was referring more to how it was marketed rather than the content or value of the dub. The old anime seemed to have a wider appeal in the US when it was marketed as an action show rather than a "girl power" show. However, now it's clear the show is aimed at a different crowd. When a door opens up, another one closes.
 

John

Luna Crescens
Dec 20, 2011
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#46
I definitely see what you mean, Nadia, about how Sailor Moon was marketed back then vs. how it's marketed today. In general I do find that most anime fans don't care if a show is "girly" but back in the late 90s/early 2000s, most young boys probably needed that kind of approach to marketing to really allow them to get into Sailor Moon. Nowadays, everyone considers Sailor Moon an anime classic even if they've never watched an episode, and people who are into anime tend to be a bit more open-minded than the typical Westerner. I guess what I'm saying is that nowadays, Sailor Moon doesn't need to be marketed as something that can appeal to all people. It's marketed as an anime/manga franchise--yes, a "girly" one in many ways, but it's no longer "just" a cartoon.

Also...

Buffy is nowhere near a "girly" show.

Despite it being a supernatural soap opera, the horror and superheroic elements are definitely intended for a male audience. You can tell this just from the logo. Generally, horror is not marketed to girls any more than romance is marketed to boys.

That's not to say girls didn't watch it or become a vital part of the audience, but Buffy, in spite of its progressive (at the time) messages, was aimed for young men. That's why it could have such the appeal that it did and still does.

It's the same reason why franchises aimed at male audiences tend to outperform those aimed at female audiences, with rare exceptions. If you aim for male, you tend to get females, too. If you aim for female, then men will be driven off.
Thank you so much for saying this. @Clow, I'm honestly not sure why you consider Buffy to be a "girly" show and I'd love to hear more insight on the matter, but for now, I really have to agree with Nadia on this one. There definitely was CW (or rather WB)-style "relationship drama" on Buffy, but it was just the polar opposite of "girly" in my mind.
 
Jul 6, 2018
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#47
Aldo in Buffy all yhe gay things started much later in the show. First 3 or 4 seasonhad notjing of that. I have never assumed it to be neither girly nor gay centered show in the slightest.
 

Clow

Luna Crescens
Jul 29, 2012
3,447
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#48
I didn't mean to use the word girly as an offensive word; my apologies if I conveyed that message.

I am a huge Buffy fan and I felt that Buffy was catered to the same audience as Dawson's Creek (teenage girls), but the show had a supernatural element. I also perceive the original Buffy movie from 1992 as a movie catered to a female audience (Luke Perry, anyone?) When Angel starts sleeping on the floor of Buffy's bedroom, for example, the show feels like "Twilight." A 300 year old extremely handsome vampire sleeping on the floor of your bedroom (?)

I do agree that as the seasons of "Buffy" progressed, beginning with season 3, "Buffy" became more of a "boy" show.

By the end of the season 3, though, Whedon thought: "okay, let's remove Angel from Buffy and make a show for guys." And so he did.

There is definitely a difference between "Buffy" and "Angel." To this day, I still have not gotten into "Angel" because "Angel" feels so different than "Buffy." It is far more action and monster packed and it doesn't have much romance... whereas in Buffy there was plenty! When Buffy falls in love with Spike (so many teenage girls supporting "Spuffy" back then).

"Buffy" expanded itself, and there was more action, but it was consistent, in that, in my opinion, it remained female-oriented, much like it was in the beginning. I definitely do not believe that Buffy was intended for a male audience. It was clear in season 7 that only girls could be slayers. No boys allowed. Boys just fought along.

One thing I will say: Whedon is a feminist and Buffy was about subversion: it is why so many guys got into the show. Heck, I know heterosexual guys who say things like "I am team Angel" or "I am team Spike."

"Angel," on the other hand, is aimed at a male audience, and it feels sometimes like "Blade."
 
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John

Luna Crescens
Dec 20, 2011
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#49
Oh I didn't take offense to the world girly, I just didn't know what you meant though.

Angel as a show actually has lots of romance in it, though...the Angel/Cordelia pairing is a huge story element as the show goes on, and the Fred/Wes/Gunn love triangle is a driving force behind Wesley's development in season 3 that also leads to probably the most traumatic and amazing episode Whedon has ever written in the show's 5th season.

Though I guess I'm getting off topic lol. Sorry.
 
#50
I loved Buffy, Sailor Moon, Xena but hate MLP, Winx and other shows. I only like Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, Ronin Warriors etc.

I've always loved Sailor Moon openly and had a girl make a comment about my sexuality because of it. I can be a bit of a firecracker like Rei sometimes so I had to shade her off.

Sailor Moon is important to me, since it gave me a push to become a writer/artist of my own series. Didn't do anything for me sexually...lol

The anime itself was something epic for me growing up.

I'm a grown man and the other day I was at work & we use Slack to chat for our business group and we joke a lot on it. Well, one of the leads left and needed to go do something and said he would be right back. I felt the the need to put in the chat, Meanwhile," and attached a gif of Sailor Moon transforming. Most of the guys were quiet but a girl responded with a picture of Sailor Mercury doing Shine Aqua Illusion. I was estatic..lol

Everyone knows I love Sailor Moon and could care less about how they view me sexually..lol
 
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rgveda99

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 5, 2009
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Philippines
#51

Time Sage

Suburban Senshi's local Demon Lord
Site Admin
Suburban Senshi OP
Apr 23, 2012
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Behind You! BOO!
#53
When people talk about LGBT themes in Sailor Moon, they often forget that Usagi herself is likely bisexual. She stalked Rei went to Rei's shrine for the first time because Ami said she could find a Beautiful girl there. She also has no issue with Haruka kissing her the manga and in fact is able to indentify her as Uranus because "they" both kissed her the same way.
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
Mar 8, 2012
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#54
Continuing the trend of reviving old threads...

I just came across a book from 2015 called セーラームーン世代の社会論 "Social Theory of the Sailor Moon Generation." Part of the book discusses how Sailor Moon featured a large number of LGBT characters, its airing coincided with certain LGBT milestones (like the first gay pride parade in Japan in 1994), and how the "Sailor Moon generation" seems more accepting of LGBT people. I wish the book were 1) available in English, and 2) available in full online. You can preview some pages from the book, including this fun little chart:



I find it interesting that the author considers all of the Amazon Trio to be LGBT. (I know Naoko describes them as being effeminate, cross-dressing gay men, but I feel like Hawk's Eye is the only one who overtly came across that way in the manga, with Fish Eye being the only one who came across that way in the anime, but the author seems to be citing their outfits as proof they're all trans?) I also find it interesting that Haruka and Michiru are labeled "Homosexual Couple (!?)" That "!?" makes me wonder if they're expressing surprise or doubt. Hmm...
 
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blondibear_17

Luna Crescens
Mar 3, 2017
275
153
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#56
You do raise an important point. As Sailor Moon has become more and more of a feminist and LGBT icon, this does make the show and fanbase less accessible to those outside of those demographics, to the point where straight men can't be seen as liking Sailor Moon unless they are either actually not straight or just perverted. There is a danger in this self-directed marginalization, which takes a show from everyone and instead makes it for only a select crowd. In a sense that is the opposite of progress, as instead of beinf

As Rika mentioned, there is a tremendous double-standard about girls liking boy shows and boys liking girl shows, and there is some validity to the demographics and marketing tactics involved. Even in cases of MLP, where straight men who are outside the target demographic enjoy the show, these fans are also mocked and made fun of. Toxic masculinity hurts males and prevents them from enjoying female things, and it doesn't help when the fandom itself tries to determine who should and shouldn't be able to like it.

I'm disappointed with how Sailor Moon is now marketed in the West. While Sailor Moon was marketed to girls in the West, too, at first it flopped hard with the bad timeslot and the girls to buy the toys. The franchise got its biggest boosts when it aired on USA as part of the morning Action Extreme team and Toonami, both of which were blocks which did skew towards boys. However, instead of keeping this boy-skewing track, the show went off the air, the license expired, and the franchise went dormant until revived via the manga re-release. Now everything is girly again. You can even see in the difference between the old and new international logos how Sailor Moon was to be marketed. The old logo was generic and for all ages. The new logo is clearly feminine and to emphasize the "pretty" parts of the franchise, which limits male interaction but tries to encourage female interaction.



Buffy is nowhere near a "girly" show.

Despite it being a supernatural soap opera, the horror and superheroic elements are definitely intended for a male audience. You can tell this just from the logo. Generally, horror is not marketed to girls any more than romance is marketed to boys.

That's not to say girls didn't watch it or become a vital part of the audience, but Buffy, in spite of its progressive (at the time) messages, was aimed for young men. That's why it could have such the appeal that it did and still does.

It's the same reason why franchises aimed at male audiences tend to outperform those aimed at female audiences, with rare exceptions. If you aim for male, you tend to get females, too. If you aim for female, then men will be driven off.
I never really thought about the marketing aspects of it but I guess now that you mention it I am sure that makes a big difference. I knew boys who watched Sailor Moon back in the day but I imagine as far as nostalgia goes the male fan base has all but been ignored and obviously moved on maybe it's because it wouldn't be easy to sell men Sailor Moon merch. Sailor Moon Crystal unfortunately made no major pop culture impact so now the franchise is something that a lot of people only vaguely remember outside of the devoted fanbase that keeps it alive with their dollars.
 

JunoDX

Luna Crescens
Nov 8, 2018
107
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#57
I think Sailor Moon is THE LGBTQI+ icon. She fights for love and justice and the series has so many queer characters and shows gender-fluidity and bi-curiosity (Rei, Makoto, Usagi) and all in a natural way. I myself am a gay man and I love the series even more for this progressive aspect and I think every Pride-parade needs Sailor Moon. I made for the last one a sweatshirt with a big uranus x neptune print and i wear it with Sailor Pride.