Is the Dream arc overrated?

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Feb 8, 2021
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#21
You‘ve mentioned this a lot but there’s really no basis for your claims other than a loose description of Galaxia becoming Sailor Chaos in the Material Collections.

The thing is, the Materials Collection just includes various ideas she was toying with from the start. It’s just brainstorming- that doesn’t mean they were ever the actual plot she wanted to go with, it was just her process to get to the final plot that she settled on.

She also included her ideas for fairy Diana, which doesn’t mean that’s how she really wanted her DK plot to go. It was just at one point an idea, she drew some designs, and then discarded it. I fail to even see a design for Sailor Chaos Galaxia, which tells me she didn’t even keep that idea up for long.

On the other hand, the Material Collection also features art that she designed for the anime- the SuperS movie designs mainly. Who’s to say that she wasn’t referring to the Sailor Chaos as part of the anime design instead?

If I’m wrong, please let me know, but I haven’t seen any other hint that she was forced to cut her Stars arc short. If they wanted her to end the manga sooner, then she wouldn’t have kept going with Sailor V (which was less popular than Moon) after Stars concluded.
She wants to end Stars as soon as possible due to certain issues that existed after Stars 2 or Chapter 51 of Shinsouban was published and burn out after that, I think she could have done Stars at 4-7 volumes at best.

That issue did not affect her other works.

Other mangaka like CLAMP and Yu Watase will put their manga in Hiatus if their manga is in the same condition as what happened to Stars, Arina Tanemura has a similar work ethic as Takeuchi, that is why I used to follow her for a certain time.
 
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SILVER

Aurorae Lunares
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#22
She wants to end Stars as soon as possible due to certain issues that existed after Stars 2 or Chapter 51 of Shinzouban was published and burn out after that, I think she could have done Stars at 4-7 volumes at best.

That issue did not affect her other works.

Other mangaka like CLAMP and Yu Watase will put their manga in Hiatus if their manga is in the same condition as what happened to Stars, Arina Tanemura has a similar work ethic as Takeuchi, that is why I used to follow her for a certain time.
Im so tired of you constantly calling Naoko lazy. You and other members would not last a day in her shoes in the 90s so dont start.
 

snowgeisha

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#23
She wants to end Stars as soon as possible due to certain issues that existed after Stars 2 or Chapter 51 of Shinzouban was published and burn out after that, I think she could have done Stars at 4-7 volumes at best.

That issue did not affect her other works.

Other mangaka like CLAMP and Yu Watase will put their manga in Hiatus if their manga is in the same condition as what happened to Stars, Arina Tanemura has a similar work ethic as Takeuchi, that is why I used to follow her for a certain time.
Where did you find this? This is the first I’ve heard of any Stars issues. I know there were issues with Kodansha that came later on (I think it was PQ Angels) but if she was burned out, she wouldn’t have continued the series with V right after.
 
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#24
Im so tired of you constantly calling Naoko lazy. You and other members would not last a day in her shoes in the 90s so dont start.
No, I don't I actually commend her for persisting and finishing the manga, not like other mangaka like CLAMP did with X OR Sugisaki of DNAngel.

Where did you find this? This is the first I’ve heard of any Stars issues. I know there were issues with Kodansha that came later on (I think it was PQ Angels) but if she was burned out, she wouldn’t have continued the series with V right after.
She has an issue only with Sailor Moon, not Sailor V or PQ Angels.
What's Up with Eternal Sailor Moon's Transformation Phrase?
 
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#25
Actually, the issues of Takeuchi in Stars and later PQAngels kind of run in parallel with Ikuhara and Saito's issues in Utena, I wonder if he did not quit working in Sailor Moon despite his issues with TOEI and did the Super S Movie he wanted regardless of the producer quitting, I suspect that aside from the Super S movie with Uranus and Neptune in 1995 we would have a different plot of Stars after Chapter 51 and it being at least 2 volumes longer than what we have and a different 90s anime Sailor Stars without the removal of the romance bonding between Minako and Rei and without Starlights being male in civilian form.

Nevertheless, I think the back story of Galaxia needs more fleshing out, I think Naoko was originally aiming for Galaxia not to be redeemed and sealed then changed it to a character who was redeemed, I think her backstory and redemption here needs to be detailed.
 
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Jul 6, 2018
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#26
Never in all of the 90s anime there wasn't even a hint Minako x Rei. In fact when u think about it they were probably the ones that interact less and don't have many scenes just the two of them. Nothing beyond some promotional artwork. The 90s anime was focused on Yuichiru and Rei. Rei was obviously heterosexual and interested in boys in the 90s anime. So was Minako. Even in the manga we have like one suggestive moment that is blown out of proportion. I am not homophobic in the slightest, just both Rei and Minako in the manga as well as Sailor V were with established interest in men. Casablanca Memory shows that, so does Rei's nightmare in her dream arc. As for Minako - countless guys in Sailor V. Most likely it could have been the case in the Sailor Moon manga if Naoko had more time dedicated to each if the girls. Even the parallel story, which is not canon, but still is a nice look into the feature, shows them as married to some nameless guys. Some people really took one image and created this whole ship, which most likely wasn't intended.
 
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#27
Never in all of the 90s anime there wasn't even a hint Minako x Rei. In fact when u think about it they were probably the ones that interact less and don't have many scenes just the two of them. Nothing beyond some promotional artwork. The 90s anime was focused on Yuichiru and Rei. Rei was obviously heterosexual and interested in boys in the 90s anime. So was Minako. Even in the manga we have like one suggestive moment that is blown out of proportion. I am not homophobic in the slightest, just both Rei and Minako in the manga as well as Sailor V were with established interest in men. Casablanca Memory shows that, so does Rei's nightmare in her dream arc. As for Minako - countless guys in Sailor V. Most likely it could have been the case in the Sailor Moon manga if Naoko had more time dedicated to each if the girls. Even the parallel story, which is not canon, but still is a nice look into the feature, shows them as married to some nameless guys. Some people really took one image and created this whole ship, which most likely wasn't intended.
Both of them are hetero in the 90s anime and there is a subtext of Rei and Minako in the manga, I think that is either a Class S kind of relationship, a romantic friendship or the Heterosexual life partners trope, I prefer the characterization of Haruka and Michiru in the manga and their treatment of the Starlights compared on how they acted in the 90s anime,wherein it is Minako and Rei who are hostile to the Starlights in the end rather than Haruka and Michiru in the manga.


I would say that Rei and Minako are like the protagonists of Maria Sama Ga Miteru who have a close friendship.
 
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#28
I think the issues of Naoko in writing Stars happened after Episodes 172 and onward premiered which is after chapter 2 of Stars is already done, that is just my opinion, I think TOEI changing her characters in Stars and the adaptation not being on her liking contributed to her burn out while writing the Sailor Moon manga, Takeuchi planned Stars to be the last arc but I think the anime changing her characters might have made her want to end it sooner.

Another issue in Sailor Moon is the issues with higher-ups of TOEI not being fond of it just because of its depictions of lesbians and female to female attraction in Sailor Moon, I read in the interview of Ikuhara that the producer of the Sailor Moon Super S movie walked out on it when the Super S movie was initially planned with Uranus and Neptune, I think the controversies of Sailor Moon made Takuya Igarashi make the Starlights male in their civilian forms, I think this would not happen in Ikuhara’s watch.
 
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#29
Never in all the 90s anime there wasn't even a hint Minako x Rei. In fact when u think about it, they were probably the ones that interact less and don't have many scenes just the two of them. Nothing beyond some promotional artwork. The 90s anime was focused on Yuichiru and Rei.
Yes. Yuichiro exists to be Rei's love interest in the '90s anime. I only wished she admitted for feelings for him.
 
Likes: kasumigenx
#31
I'll say this. Naoko was not only working on Sailor Moon but on Code Name: Sailor V as well. She had to meet monthly deadlines for both Nakayoshi (Sailor Moon) and RunRun (Sailor V). Which is the reason she made things up as she went along. She wasn't given an extended time period to expand on her ideas and further develop them organically, thus explaining the inconsistencies and plot holes. She'd done all this while the first anime was in production.
 
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#32
I'll say this. Naoko was not only working on Sailor Moon but on Code Name: Sailor V as well. She had to meet monthly deadlines for both Nakayoshi (Sailor Moon) and RunRun (Sailor V). Which is the reason she made things up as she went along. She wasn't given an extended time period to expand on her ideas and further develop them organically, thus explaining the inconsistencies and plot holes. She'd done all this while the first anime was in production.
Yes, and the issues Naoko had with working on Sailor Moon Stars did not affect the side stories and Sailor V.
 
Mar 12, 2021
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#33
I'll say this. Naoko was not only working on Sailor Moon but on Code Name: Sailor V as well. She had to meet monthly deadlines for both Nakayoshi (Sailor Moon) and RunRun (Sailor V). Which is the reason she made things up as she went along. She wasn't given an extended time period to expand on her ideas and further develop them organically, thus explaining the inconsistencies and plot holes. She'd done all this while the first anime was in production.
I know that, but that's not an excuse. Many manga authors have to meet deadlines and have the same or even more load of work. Besides, not all of them have got assistants like Naoko had and she didn't dedicate most of her time to Sailor V, a comic consisted of sixteen chapters released from 1991 to 1997. That's nothing.

There're a lot of fans of her works, it's allright, I'm not trying to offend anyone. I myself find this franchise interesting, being the Anime the next incarnation I'll deeply analyse. I must admit Naoko is really good at illustrating and mixing colours. :keke: I suppose that's what makes her mangas attractive to the eye. In my opinion, Naoko had good conceptualisations, she handled the poetry of some sequences elegantly, and her worldview is beautiful, but she messed it all up by using a not-so-good narrative.

She would have become an excellent artist if she had continued in the industry. However, back then in the early 90's, Naoko needed more practice, skills, and to be hardened as a manga author before embarking on the big task of writing and illustrating Sailor Moon.
 
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#34
I know that, but that's not an excuse. Many manga authors have to meet deadlines and have the same or even more load of work. Besides, not all of them have got assistants like Naoko had and she didn't dedicate most of her time to Sailor V, a comic consisted of sixteen chapters released from 1991 to 1997. That's nothing.

There're a lot of fans of her works, it's allright, I'm not trying to offend anyone. I myself find this franchise interesting, being the Anime the next incarnation I'll deeply analyse. I must admit Naoko is really good at illustrating and mixing colours. :keke: I suppose that's what makes her mangas attractive to the eye. In my opinion, Naoko had good conceptualisations, she handled the poetry of some sequences elegantly, and her worldview is beautiful, but she messed it all up by using a not-so-good narrative.

She would have become an excellent artist if she had continued in the industry. However, back then in the early 90's, Naoko needed more practice, skills, and to be hardened as a manga author before embarking on the big task of writing and illustrating Sailor Moon.
The main reason why she left is because of Kodansha losing her manuscripts for PQAngels, she is currently dedicated to Sailor Moon, I think the issues midway working on Stars took a toll on her as well.
 
Feb 16, 2021
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#35
I personally do think it is overrated, BUT, upon rereading it a couple of months ago, I was absorbed in the story. It's not a masterpiece, but it is compelling, and compared to the other arcs it moves pretty fast (unlike the SuperS adaptation.)
I 100% agree that she crammed too much into the end...the cats having human forms, the princesses, the Golden Crystal, and the one thing I really dislike, the Sailor Guardians from the castles. The manga needed more room to breathe. That wasn't Naoko's fault, she was always pressed to hurry out the next chapter and I believe the anime having such a high priority pushed her to get each chapter out without the polish it deserved.

As for her art being ugly, I would disagree. It's extremely stylistic and some of the scenes are a mess, but if you read the Eternal versions (which are cleaned up from older releases) there is quite a bit of detail going on. Again, everything feels compressed.

This is the problem people have with Crystal/Eternal compared to the old anime, the plot is just breakneck speed and no time to explain anything.
A perfect adaptation would be a manga plotline but with expanded chapters. Not necessarily the MOTD filler episodes from the 90's but rather than 13 episodes a season, maybe double that to explore villain backstories and let the characters interact. Rather than rerelease the same story over and over with slightly updated art, I wish Naoko would expand the manga story.



The Senshi do sort of lose some of their individuality, but they also talk more about it in this arc. While it's true they do decide to put their mission above their dreams, this arc seems to show each of them in conflict with that decision. They struggle to see how they can balance both.
Rather than giving up on their dreams they each realize they can have it all, Ami can be a doctor but she can also become strong enough to protect her loved ones (the image shows not just Usagi, but the others and her parents as well).
When they realize being a Senshi isn't the end of their dreams, they are filled with power.
 

Seira Hazuki

Solaris Luna
Jan 17, 2007
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#36
I enjoy the manga and I'm a fan of Naoko, but it's true her writing isn't great and that "she was under deadlines!!!!!!" is a paperthin excuse. As someone who has read all of Naoko's work, the problems Sailor Moon had with its writing didn't magically go away just because Naoko wasn't under tremendous pressure of an anime adaptation. Her last completed work Toki*Meca was really fun, but still suffered from things happening because ~pretty~, tons of characters being introduced with little to no development or reason and sequences of events that are confusing and/or hard to follow.

That said there's still plenty to like with her manga, and there's clearly something about it that attracts readers since it still sells enough to justify multiple different versions being released almost yearly.

I'm also always a bit uncomfortable with criticizing the Sailor Moon manga for portraying its main character as being *too perfect*, a claim that I don't think is fully accurate, but even if you accept the premise... I always feel like there's never as much as pushback with stories that portray male characters as perfect, ultra powerful, than when a series has a female character has those same qualities. That's not take away some of the crticism of the manga, and I think a lot of it is warranted. But there is sometimes this strain of "how could anyone like this?" when people criticize the manga now that doesn't sit right with me.
 
#37
I enjoy the manga, and I'm a fan of Naoko, but it's true her writing isn't great and that "she was under deadlines!!!!!!" is a paper thin excuse. Tons of characters being introduced with little to no development or reason and sequences of events that are confusing and/or hard to follow.

That said there's still plenty to like with her manga, and there's clearly something about it that attracts readers since it still sells enough to justify multiple different versions being released almost yearly.

I'm also always a bit uncomfortable with criticizing the Sailor Moon manga for portraying its main character as being *too perfect*, a claim that I don't think is fully accurate, but even if you accept the premise... I always feel like there's never as much as pushback with stories that portray male characters as perfect, ultra powerful, than when a series has a female character has those same qualities. That's not to take away some criticism of the manga, and I think a lot of it is warranted. But there is sometimes this strain of "how could anyone like this?" when people criticize the manga now that doesn't sit right with me.
I like Naoko as I enjoy reading the manga as well. I can acknowledge the faults and issues. Furthermore, I made an error in judgment regarding the deadlines excuse for Naoko's weak writing. It is a poor excuse overall and I helped spread the misconception to confuse other members in the forum. I sincerely apologize, and I'm going to own up to the aforementioned post.
She does have interesting concepts for her stories, yet she didn't execute them well when working on her Sailor Moon and Sailor V. The character writing is definitely one of her flaws as an author.
 
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Jul 17, 2006
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#38
tons of characters being introduced with little to no development or reason.
Because the manga was thought as a // complement to the classic anime.
Naoko was in charge of bringing secondary characters, the classic anime to give them stories backgrounds. Still funny that some never appear at the end in the classic anime (like the little guy in admiration of Mamoru; I don’t remember his name right now lol; he appears shortly in Crystal)
 
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Seira Hazuki

Solaris Luna
Jan 17, 2007
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#39
Because the manga was thought as a // complement to the classic anime.
Naoko was in charge of bringing secondary characters, the classic anime to give them stories backgrounds. Still funny that some never appear at the end in the classic anime (like the little guy in administration of Mamoru; I don’t remember his name right now lol; he appears shortly in Crystal)
The point is Toki*Meca also introduced a ton of characters that went nowhere. And it didn't have an anime adaptation either. All of the villains were also one-shot'd. So this would have been an issue for Sailor Moon even if Naoko had the freedom to do what she wanted.
 
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#40
Naoko has great ideas and concepts, she could make intense plot among shojo manga writers, but the pace was wayy too rushed and usually lack of enough set up.

Her characterization wasn't that great, most of the supporting roles and villains were meh and the anime did a good job to fill up.