Is the Dream arc overrated?

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#61
Seriously, I love the manga.
I really dislike when all people are overly critical and negative of the source material without having bringing up positive aspects of said material. I especially dislike when manga! Usagi is criticized for being too "perfect". Like Seira says, there needs to be equal pushback against perfect male characters as well. Why is that male characters are never called for a lack of flaws? The reason Usagi in the manga is "perfect" is due to her being the titular protagonist. Therefore, she gets a hefty amount of focus and characterization. I think people are forgetting the times in the '90s anime Usagi was shown NOT to care about her friends either. In the third season's climax Usagi gave the Holy Grail to Mistress 9. That Holy Grail was the result of her friends' powers.

Was Naoko an excellent writer? Not entirely. I know she wasn't a good writer. Thank you for pointing that out.
 
Nov 10, 2020
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#62
I read the manga for the first time this past year with the deluxe editions all coming out in English. I loved the art. It's stunning. I particularly liked the drawings Naoko used for the chapter titles in color. The girls look fantastic. It was my first manga ever and the only one.

Dream was probably my second favorite behind the Infinity arc. There was a certain darkness the arc still managed to capture with Mamo's illness despite all the added cuteness of Chibi Usa and the Circus theme. And then Usagi gets sick too. I liked that Naoko had a very specific vision for the theme of the arc. And Artemis turns human. How is awesome is that?

My only real criticism would be how easily Nehelenia was defeated especially since her first appearances made her feel so mysterious.
 

julayla

Luna Crescens
Feb 9, 2018
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#63
Seriously, I love the manga.
I really dislike when all people are overly critical and negative of the source material without having bringing up positive aspects of said material. I especially dislike when manga! Usagi is criticized for being too "perfect". Like Seira says, there needs to be equal pushback against perfect male characters as well. Why is that male characters are never called for a lack of flaws? The reason Usagi in the manga is "perfect" is due to her being the titular protagonist. Therefore, she gets a hefty amount of focus and characterization. I think people are forgetting the times in the '90s anime Usagi was shown NOT to care about her friends either. In the third season's climax Usagi gave the Holy Grail to Mistress 9. That Holy Grail was the result of her friends' powers.

Was Naoko an excellent writer? Not entirely. I know she wasn't a good writer. Thank you for pointing that out.
Uh not to be negative, but in the 90s, that grail was actually made by the Outers (who Uranus & Neptune were biased against Sailor Moon at times) and their talismans, not the Inners themselves. It's only when Saturn jumped to fight Mistress 9 does she actually gets her friends' powers (and Uranus & Neptune's) to power up to Super Sailor Moon one last time in S.
 
Likes: Starlight
Sep 6, 2014
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#64
. I think people are forgetting the times in the '90s anime Usagi was shown NOT to care about her friends either. In the third season's climax Usagi gave the Holy Grail to Mistress 9. That Holy Grail was the result of her friends' powers.

.
The Holy Grail came from the power of three talisman from 3 Senshi who weren’t her friends. One was a friendly acquaintance at best.

Also she did it because she thought she was helping Hotaru. It had nothing to do with not caring.

Agree with everything else you said.
 

yaya_ikuto

Lumen Cinererum
Jan 16, 2018
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#65
Seriously, I love the manga.
I really dislike when all people are overly critical and negative of the source material without having bringing up positive aspects of said material. I especially dislike when manga! Usagi is criticized for being too "perfect". Like Seira says, there needs to be equal pushback against perfect male characters as well. Why is that male characters are never called for a lack of flaws? The reason Usagi in the manga is "perfect" is due to her being the titular protagonist. Therefore, she gets a hefty amount of focus and characterization. I think people are forgetting the times in the '90s anime Usagi was shown NOT to care about her friends either. In the third season's climax Usagi gave the Holy Grail to Mistress 9. That Holy Grail was the result of her friends' powers.

Was Naoko an excellent writer? Not entirely. I know she wasn't a good writer. Thank you for pointing that out.
The problem with the princess-slave relationship is that the author didn't decide on the approach she wanted to take. For example, in the first arc the girls are nothing more than battle partners. Most of their meetings were held in the command centre to talk about the enemy or the mission they had to accomplished. Once the princess had awoken, Usagi started being treated as The Master. After defeating that ridiculous black fart / gas creature called Queen Metalia, Takeuchi tried to sell that there is a deep and true bond of friendship between the girls to the reader by illustrating a panel where the girls warmly hugged each other. It's not believable.

If the author wanted to show us the existence of a princess-slave relationship, that's fine. However, I think she should've been more consistent about it. It is impossible for the Senshis to change their relationship from one panel to another. Naoko didn't show the reader how those powerful bonds of friendship were forged and that she insisted so much on. The kind of friendship she tried to represent needs a maturing process.



I forgot.

I reckon you shouldn't compare Sailor Galaxia's years of solitude to Sailor Moon's sudden loss. As I said Usagi had it all. When Galaxia takes everything away from her, Usagi gets in a paddy, and decides to get everything back to be happy again. The loneliness that Galaxia experiences is deeply ingrained compared to the unexpected shock Usagi gets. And as I said, Usagi has never cared about her "friends", she has never experienced arguments, breakups, nobody said anything every time Usagi was wrong, how could a spoiled girl give moral lessons to someone who was suffering more than her?
what?
so to care about for someone you need that?
how about what happen in season 2 when her friends were kidnapped she wanted to go save them wanted to confront the only person that knows what happen and save them
well when usagi try to go with haruka and michiru they said they need take care the telulu and not that,
and the infinity arc she sacrifice herself for her friends the people she love and care about
even though if 90s usagi have that she was against her friends be friend with her boyfriend, acting jealous like in the sailor moon s episode when ami is the target and in some super s episode, and more like oh dont help a friend and homework or go to a friend house, her "friends" in 90s when they only tell usagi all the time what she do wrong even when she try to do something they keep telling her is bad like when she try to do a comic they said something bad about it, and keep telling her your boyfriend is going to leave you, again and again
the same with luna
 

Lady Pen

Luna Nova
Mar 12, 2021
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#66
Seriously, I love the manga.
I really dislike when all people are overly critical and negative of the source material without having bringing up positive aspects of said material.
I think that’s debatable. And I did mention some positive aspects of it.

what?
so to care about for someone you need that?
Yeah, especially if we talk about the sort of friendship Naoko depicts in the manga.

how about what happen in season 2 when her friends were kidnapped she wanted to go save them wanted to confront the only person that knows what happen and save them
It does not feel real. Usagi feels sad and cries when Sailor Mars is kidnapped as though Rei were a close friend she had shared a lot of things with. It’s a complete LIE.

well when usagi try to go with haruka and michiru they said they need take care the telulu and not that
And, again, I don’t quite understand Usagi's behaviour. She doesn’t know Haruka and Michiru and vice versa.

even though if 90s usagi have that she was against her friends be friend with her boyfriend, acting jealous like in the sailor moon s episode when ami is the target and in some super s episode, and more like oh dont help a friend and homework or go to a friend house, her "friends" in 90s when they only tell usagi all the time what she do wrong even when she try to do something they keep telling her is bad like when she try to do a comic they said something bad about it, and keep telling her your boyfriend is going to leave you, again and again
I’m watching the Anime for the first time (I’m watching Sailor Moon R right now) and I haven’t got to that part yet... I suppose.

I don’t want to compare the two versions of the story. Something I’ve constantly been finding on the net is reviews about the manga in which the reviewer is always claiming “the manga is better than…” “The Anime had too many filler episodes” “It’s a masterpiece, Toei changed a lot of things. They’re evil.” Almost nobody has reviewed the manga as a stand-alone work.

Maybe I’ll regret what I’m gonna say because I haven’t seen the whole series yet. I think I’m starting to understand the phenomenon behind the franchise. The plot of Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon is silly, and knowing the career (before and after SM) of Junichi Sato, Kunihiko Ikuhara, Sukehiro Tomita or Yoji Enokido, they might’ve known it. The plot in the Anime is largely abbreviated, highlighting the characters and creating a tie between them and digging into the interactions. The Anime was for everybody, there was something for kids, other things for teens, and even for adults (certain subjects in the so called filler episodes and the villains). And that’s great. The Anime is sillier than the manga, but it’s fun, has a heart, a soul, emotions. That is important! The franchise isn’t famous because of the story/the plot (ridiculous plot, indeed), it’s due to the relatability of the ensemble.

I know, someone would say, “That’s not true, Sailor Moon SuperS was a flop because there wasn’t a heavy plot, blah, blah, blah”. Well, I’d dare say that no one know exactly that. I’ve checked out the ratings and they were really, really good in 1995 and 1996. Massive for a Magical girl series in prime-time on Saturdays. Many people blame Toei Animation and Sailor Moon SuperS for the decline of the franchise. Actually, the deterioration began with a gradually loss of popularity in Nakayoshi in 1994 until it became the least popular series in the magazine in 1996. Whereas the Anime made history. It’s an important part of the japanese animation industry of the 90’s and its global domination and conquest along with Evangelion, Slam Dunk or Yu Yu Hakusho. Today it keeps being the main force of the franchise. Sailor Moon Crystal lives in obscurity and Sailor Moon Eternal is getting back the original designer for a reason.

But hey, maybe I’m wrong. I'll keep watching the Anime, I could change my mind.
 
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SILVER

Aurorae Lunares
Jan 7, 2014
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Dark Kingdom
#67

I don’t want to compare the two versions of the story. Something I’ve constantly been finding on the net is reviews about the manga in which the reviewer is always claiming “the manga is better than…” “The Anime had too many filler episodes” “It’s a masterpiece, Toei changed a lot of things. They’re evil.” Almost nobody has reviewed the manga as a stand-alone work.


.
You must've not looked at alot of places. Tumblr alone has several blogs that you could look into that look at the manga on its own.
 
Jun 17, 2019
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#69
No, that’s why I don’t love the manga overall. I like it, however there’s a lot of wasted potential because of a suboptimal writing.

The Stars arc has many ideas thrown in awaiting to be developed, concepts created in one panel and dropped on the next page, characters meant to get killed without any real function in the story, others just provide information about something and then get murdered by another disposable character. The rest of the sagas have the same problem, though in Stars it’s more noticeable along with being Usagi-centric. I gave my opinion about her, I’m not gonna change my mind, I see your point and I agree, but your reason does not exclude mine.

I know the final isn’t sweet and happy, precisely I love the message of Stars. It’s about life and for everybody. I love how Naoko relies on asian philosophy and the way she handles the “Destroy everything to get it reborn afterwards because there’s always hope and future” thing. Very Lao-Tse. :booze:

My biggest problem with the manga is the narrative. I remember reading dialogues, then stopping and staring at the pictures attempting to grasp Naoko’s intentions. That’s the thing, in a well written manga you don’t have to stop at every second to try and see what’s happening or the thoughts the character has at that moment (I used to guess thanks to the facial expressions because Takeuchi didn’t always write them down, especially in the first arc) or the actions Naoko didn’t draw.

It’s good in content, bad in execution. It’s a comic, and I had the impression I was playing a game in which I had to find out what the author wanted to tell.



I read that story and didn’t fit well in Infinity. Everyone had already got those heart-shaped brooches, and when they got them after Super Sailor Moon introduction, Chibiusa died and all of them went directly to the battle against the Death Busters. There’s no gaps in the story where all those imaginary conversations the Inners had with the Outers can take place.



And I understand your point. But at the time the Dream arc was being written Stars hadn’t been planned yet. Imagine for a second that Stars doesn’t exist. All the guardians are just mere dolls, robots devoided of human lives and dreams. Although I got to finish reading the manga, there are people who don’t because they get bored halfway through it, they can’t relate to Ami, Makoto, Haruka, Rei, etcetera. There’s no a reason why they’ve got to like those characters. Why do they have to resort to short stories to know them? In Act 15 Naoko should have told us something about Rei, her motivations, dreams, whatever, instead of introducing a character like Kotono and the rest of the useless background characters who talk about aliens, for instance.



Undeveloped concept as always and doesn’t answer my question. Why do they acquire human forms at that point and not before? Because reasons? Many things happen in this manga at plot convenience.
I've noted numerous times that Naoko's main weaknesses as a mangaka is sloppy paneling and pacing, (though the latter I suspect is more due to her being rushed by Kodansha & Toei and put under pressure with numerous deadlines, you have to understand that both the manga and anime were running concurrently at the time and Naoko's) what you've described above especially concerning not understanding what was happening on certain pages isn't a detriment to Naoko's writing ability but rather her artistic ability as a comic artist. A lot of her ideas and general plot outline for Sailor Moon were brilliant and ahead of it's time. You look at alot of Magical Girl manga of that era and very few ever dared to go as grim as SM, I suspect if she was under less constraints and given free reign (with maybe some paneling assistance) the manga would've turned out much better than it did. You should read some of Naoko's commentary, completing the manga almost drove her sick, she was under an extreme amount of pressure due to Toei & Bandai wanting to turn this IP into a million-dollar toy seller and milking the cash cow. As it stands, what we did manage to get under the circumstances is pretty damn impressive for a one-woman team.

I like Galaxia even though her story is a little bit... shallow? thin? It's a shame because this character is brilliant and deserves a deeper background.
What was shallow about her story? Are you talking about her background and how it was kept vague and wasn't delved deeper into?

The problem with the princess-slave relationship is that the author didn't decide on the approach she wanted to take. For example, in the first arc the girls are nothing more than battle partners. Most of their meetings were held in the command centre to talk about the enemy or the mission they had to accomplished. Once the princess had awoken, Usagi started being treated as The Master. After defeating that ridiculous black fart / gas creature called Queen Metalia, Takeuchi tried to sell that there is a deep and true bond of friendship between the girls to the reader by illustrating a panel where the girls warmly hugged each other. It's not believable.

If the author wanted to show us the existence of a princess-slave relationship, that's fine. However, I think she should've been more consistent about it. It is impossible for the Senshis to change their relationship from one panel to another. Naoko didn't show the reader how those powerful bonds of friendship were forged and that she insisted so much on. The kind of friendship she tried to represent needs a maturing process.



I forgot.

I reckon you shouldn't compare Sailor Galaxia's years of solitude to Sailor Moon's sudden loss. As I said Usagi had it all. When Galaxia takes everything away from her, Usagi gets in a paddy, and decides to get everything back to be happy again. The loneliness that Galaxia experiences is deeply ingrained compared to the unexpected shock Usagi gets. And as I said, Usagi has never cared about her "friends", she has never experienced arguments, breakups, nobody said anything every time Usagi was wrong, how could a spoiled girl give moral lessons to someone who was suffering more than her?
Usagi still has the knowledge of numerous battles/war and death, she might not have deeply ingrained loneliness, but she's experienced her fair share of trauma due to being a Senshi and thus I think she has the right to speak up about it.

“When Galaxia takes everything away from her, Usagi gets in a paddy, and decides to get everything back to be happy again.”

??? So what else is she supposed to do, she should just let her friends Sailor Crystals be extracted from their bodies to be turned into mind-controlled slaves? She should just let her future husband and daughter be murdered before her very eyes?

I think that’s debatable. And I did mention some positive aspects of it.



Yeah, especially if we talk about the sort of friendship Naoko depicts in the manga.



It does not feel real. Usagi feels sad and cries when Sailor Mars is kidnapped as though Rei were a close friend she had shared a lot of things with. It’s a complete LIE.



And, again, I don’t quite understand Usagi's behaviour. She doesn’t know Haruka and Michiru and vice versa.



I’m watching the Anime for the first time (I’m watching Sailor Moon R right now) and I haven’t got to that part yet... I suppose.

I don’t want to compare the two versions of the story. Something I’ve constantly been finding on the net is reviews about the manga in which the reviewer is always claiming “the manga is better than…” “The Anime had too many filler episodes” “It’s a masterpiece, Toei changed a lot of things. They’re evil.” Almost nobody has reviewed the manga as a stand-alone work.

Maybe I’ll regret what I’m gonna say because I haven’t seen the whole series yet. I think I’m starting to understand the phenomenon behind the franchise. The plot of Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon is silly, and knowing the career (before and after SM) of Junichi Sato, Kunihiko Ikuhara, Sukehiro Tomita or Yoji Enokido, they might’ve known it. The plot in the Anime is largely abbreviated, highlighting the characters and creating a tie between them and digging into the interactions. The Anime was for everybody, there was something for kids, other things for teens, and even for adults (certain subjects in the so called filler episodes and the villains). And that’s great. The Anime is sillier than the manga, but it’s fun, has a heart, a soul, emotions. That is important! The franchise isn’t famous because of the story/the plot (ridiculous plot, indeed), it’s due to the relatability of the ensemble.

I know, someone would say, “That’s not true, Sailor Moon SuperS was a flop because there wasn’t a heavy plot, blah, blah, blah”. Well, I’d dare say that no one know exactly that. I’ve checked out the ratings and they were really, really good in 1995 and 1996. Massive for a Magical girl series in prime-time on Saturdays. Many people blame Toei Animation and Sailor Moon SuperS for the decline of the franchise. Actually, the deterioration began with a gradually loss of popularity in Nakayoshi in 1994 until it became the least popular series in the magazine in 1996. Whereas the Anime made history. It’s an important part of the japanese animation industry of the 90’s and its global domination and conquest along with Evangelion, Slam Dunk or Yu Yu Hakusho. Today it keeps being the main force of the franchise. Sailor Moon Crystal lives in obscurity and Sailor Moon Eternal is getting back the original designer for a reason.

But hey, maybe I’m wrong. I'll keep watching the Anime, I could change my mind.
Look you don’t have to like the manga, it does have it’s numerous faults that I’ve acknowledged in the past. And I’m not trying to change your opinion on it or anything, you have a right to yours, but a lot of your complaints just feel like you’re looking for stuff to complain about rather than just taking the story as is.

“Why didn’t Naoko show this or that? How are we expected to buy they’re friends?”

As I’ve said before, you’re not supposed to think of each arc as short as it’s presented. Substantial time does in fact pass so you’re meant to infer that more time passed off screen. Unfortunately for us Naoko didn’t have enough time or the luxury to draw these scenes or create manga-original filler like the anime could so each arc is short and isn’t as fleshed out as it could’ve been but that’s more on Toei, Bandai and Kodansha’s back rather than Naoko since they were the ones who were treating her like a slave mule and forcing her to crank out chapters at a breakneck pace with no regards for pacing simply so she could keep up with the anime. (Also working conditions for mangaka in general is abysmal in Japan, google it. It’s honestly no wonder Naoko threw in the towel and retired like she did)

Most of the Inners characterization, backgrounds, and day to day lives being regulated to the short stories is simply due to the fact that Naoko had no other place to put them thanks to the speed she was forced to move the story along at.

Even with what little we got, at least the manga made an attempt to actually dive into their backgrounds. I know you’re still early days in the 90’s anime but I can tell you right now that in all it’s filler galore 200 episode run, it never makes even one mention about Rei’s parents or why she’s living with her grandpa. (Nor does it mention that Mako’s an orphan and how she lost her parents) At least in the manga Rei is given an actual backstory and we learn about her home life and what made her the way she is, we don’t get anything like that at all in the 90’s anime.

Also if you think Usagi’s friendship with the Inners seems unrealistic and unearned in the manga... Oh boy, just watch Crystal! Crystal’s portrayal of the friendship makes the manga look reasonable and grounded in comparison.

As it stands though I’m not really seeing this “deep, well-developed friendship” you keep claiming the manga is attempting to sell us on. Usagi doesn’t substantially change each Inner’s life for the better with just a feel-good speech upon their introduction like she does in Crystal, nor do they spend half the final battle of Metallia shilling her by replaying a montage of their introduction moments to showcase how important she is to each of them while also having her spirit extend their hand in the most cringe, over the top scene. Seriously if you think the manga’s bad on this front then you ain’t seen nothing yet!

So she and the Inners rush up to each other to hug and cry after Metallia’s defeated, so freaking what? They all almost died and had the Earth fall into catastrophe, anyone would be a little emotional. How is this unrealistic? They’re still battle companions and guardians/Princess, why do they need to be super close friends in their civilian forms for this to be justified?

Usagi also watched her Senshi be kidnapped right before her very eyes by a dangerous new alien enemy just as she’s still trying to get used to being Sailor Moon, she shouldn’t cry/be upset over this?

It’s also important to take into account that her bond with the Inners doesn’t just apply to their present lives but also their past. Usagi fully regained all her memories of that past when awakening as Princess Serenity, as did the Inners, so they would be attached just from that, it’s like they’re just picking up where they left off.

At the end of it all though, both the manga and anime were created to complement each other, neither is meant to be viewed through the lens as a stand-alone work, this franchise just doesn’t work that way. The manga focuses more on plot and lore & worldbuilding while sidelining the characters, that doesn’t make it badly written, just that it’s focus lies elsewhere. (Even though I would argue that besides most of the villains, the characters are still done quite well) The anime meanwhile is much more character-centric and episodic but light on the continuity and overall story. Neither one is better than the other or inherently has more “soul” they’re supposed to go together and it’s really all up to what you personally prefer.

You prefer a character-driven narrative that’s more light and humorous in tone, that’s fine but that doesn’t objectively make the manga “badly written.” For others that prefer a more serious story and darker take on the Magical Girl concept that trims out all the filler fluff and gets straight to the point while being purely plot focused, the manga is a better match. Ideally to get the full experience you would need to consume both as each makes up for what the other lacks.

Anyways you’re still early days in the 90’s anime, where virtually everyone agrees it’s overall superior to it’s manga counterparts... Just wait until you get to the SuperS and Stars seasons though.

Also if you’re primarily looking for character development I suggest taking a look into PGSM, the live-action version. It only does up to the Dark Kingdom arc but it’s the best iteration of it imo. Makes the 90’s anime look absolutely juvenile in comparison when it comes to characterization.
 
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Lady Pen

Luna Nova
Mar 12, 2021
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#70
what you've described above especially concerning not understanding what was happening on certain pages isn't a detriment to Naoko's writing ability but rather her artistic ability as a comic artist. A lot of her ideas and general plot outline for Sailor Moon were brilliant and ahead of it's time. You look at alot of Magical Girl manga of that era and very few ever dared to go as grim as SM, I suspect if she was under less constraints and given free reign (with maybe some paneling assistance) the manga would've turned out much better than it did. You should read some of Naoko's commentary, completing the manga almost drove her sick,
That’s why I said that Naoko was immature as a mangaka to carry out such a colossal work. Now that I’m watching the Anime I see that neither Kodansha nor Toei has squeezed all the potential a manga like Sailor Moon has. Look, we’ve got warrior princesses that belong to a two-millennial ancient kingdom – or kingdoms-, having their respective castles, lovers, powerful gems, epic battles, political, belief and ideals conflicts, reincarnations, melodrama, incarnation consequences on present lives, future mistakes that end affecting the present age, a human capable of changing a prescribed destiny, curses, the apocalypse, warriors from the other side of the galaxy, sacrifices, dreams, and so on. Too many complicated things and subjects for an artist that came from telling easy and idealistic romances between a pretty girl and an empty but handsome ideal guy in two sort of environments (schools and an ice rink) to young girls. Naoko needed help, I don’t deny that and I acknowledge the efforts she put into. Seriously, I don’t blame Takeuchi, rather it’s Fumio Osano’s fault. He knew Takeuchi’s scarcities and did nothing. It seems he only cared about keeping his job as an editor, get acknowledgements from Kodansha executives and to be promoted. All the manga editors know whether a comic’s got the right quality to be issued. He’s aware SM manga is not the mutt’s nuts, talks about it quite well in interviews because it makes money.

You know what? I’d like Toei to make a good use of the material, give Sailor Moon to some competent writers and a director that had the opportunity to take liberties and play around with the concepts. Always following the manga, mind you.

What was shallow about her story? Are you talking about her background and how it was kept vague and wasn't delved deeper into?
What I mean is I’d like to have seen more details, her childhood in her native planet, more about her feelings, the way she found the saffire crystal. We could have had Tin Nyanko be killed by a member of the Sailors Starlights (her death was not important) and one or two more pages of that dream-flashback of Galaxia.

Look you don’t have to like the manga, it does have it’s numerous faults that I’ve acknowledged in the past. And I’m not trying to change your opinion on it or anything, you have a right to yours, but a lot of your complaints just feel like you’re looking for stuff to complain about rather than just taking the story as is.
Believe me. If I didn't like it I wouldn’t have finished it. I like it and because of that I’m sort of upset that it’s mediocre at best. The Anime is not the best either, even so I prefer it (at least until what I’ve seen so far, I’ve fallen in love with Haruka, Michiru and Professor Tomoe in this version) because of the emotional aspect, humour, the chemistry of the characters and the staff involved in the production. And once I finish, I’ll go for the live action and that thing called Crystal.

Most of the Inners characterization, backgrounds, and day to day lives being regulated to the short stories is simply due to the fact that Naoko had no other place to put them thanks to the speed she was forced to move the story along at.
Well, excluding the Stars and Dream arc, those characters could’ve had more characterisation in place of some other useless characters or situations in the early Black Moon and Infinity chapters. Anyroad, I like the Battle Exams stories, they sort of fit quite well in Infinity and are a good complement before starting with Dream arc.

it never makes even one mention about Rei’s parents or why she’s living with her grandpa. (Nor does it mention that Mako’s an orphan and how she lost her parents) At least in the manga Rei is given an actual backstory and we learn about her home life and what made her the way she is, we don’t get anything like that at all in the 90’s anime.
Bloody nora! It’s a shame because a I love Casablanca.

Also if you think Usagi’s friendship with the Inners seems unrealistic and unearned in the manga... Oh boy, just watch Crystal! Crystal’s portrayal of the friendship makes the manga look reasonable and grounded in comparison.
Yes, I’ve read a lot of things about that horrible creature. I know I shouldn’t give an opinion yet, but only reading most of the views makes me think about the manga as a M-A-S-T-E-R-P-I-E-C-E.

It’s also important to take into account that her bond with the Inners doesn’t just apply to their present lives but also their past. Usagi fully regained all her memories of that past when awakening as Princess Serenity, as did the Inners, so they would be attached just from that, it’s like they’re just picking up where they left off.
Yeah, that was what I thought when I wondered about this lack of cohesion while I was reading it. But, you know, I think Naoko should’ve emphasised it more. Those little bits that define the characters are significant and is a detail that is easily overlooked by the common reader.
 
Jun 17, 2019
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#71
That’s why I said that Naoko was immature as a mangaka to carry out such a colossal work. Now that I’m watching the Anime I see that neither Kodansha nor Toei has squeezed all the potential a manga like Sailor Moon has. Look, we’ve got warrior princesses that belong to a two-millennial ancient kingdom – or kingdoms-, having their respective castles, lovers, powerful gems, epic battles, political, belief and ideals conflicts, reincarnations, melodrama, incarnation consequences on present lives, future mistakes that end affecting the present age, a human capable of changing a prescribed destiny, curses, the apocalypse, warriors from the other side of the galaxy, sacrifices, dreams, and so on. Too many complicated things and subjects for an artist that came from telling easy and idealistic romances between a pretty girl and an empty but handsome ideal guy in two sort of environments (schools and an ice rink) to young girls. Naoko needed help, I don’t deny that and I acknowledge the efforts she put into. Seriously, I don’t blame Takeuchi, rather it’s Fumio Osano’s fault. He knew Takeuchi’s scarcities and did nothing. It seems he only cared about keeping his job as an editor, get acknowledgements from Kodansha executives and to be promoted. All the manga editors know whether a comic’s got the right quality to be issued. He’s aware SM manga is not the mutt’s nuts, talks about it quite well in interviews because it makes money.

You know what? I’d like Toei to make a good use of the material, give Sailor Moon to some competent writers and a director that had the opportunity to take liberties and play around with the concepts. Always following the manga, mind you.



What I mean is I’d like to have seen more details, her childhood in her native planet, more about her feelings, the way she found the saffire crystal. We could have had Tin Nyanko be killed by a member of the Sailors Starlights (her death was not important) and one or two more pages of that dream-flashback of Galaxia.



Believe me. If I didn't like it I wouldn’t have finished it. I like it and because of that I’m sort of upset that it’s mediocre at best. The Anime is not the best either, even so I prefer it (at least until what I’ve seen so far, I’ve fallen in love with Haruka, Michiru and Professor Tomoe in this version) because of the emotional aspect, humour, the chemistry of the characters and the staff involved in the production. And once I finish, I’ll go for the live action and that thing called Crystal.



Well, excluding the Stars and Dream arc, those characters could’ve had more characterisation in place of some other useless characters or situations in the early Black Moon and Infinity chapters. Anyroad, I like the Battle Exams stories, they sort of fit quite well in Infinity and are a good complement before starting with Dream arc.



Bloody nora! It’s a shame because a I love Casablanca.



Yes, I’ve read a lot of things about that horrible creature. I know I shouldn’t give an opinion yet, but only reading most of the views makes me think about the manga as a M-A-S-T-E-R-P-I-E-C-E.



Yeah, that was what I thought when I wondered about this lack of cohesion while I was reading it. But, you know, I think Naoko should’ve emphasised it more. Those little bits that define the characters are significant and is a detail that is easily overlooked by the common reader.
Yeah, it's a well-known fact that Osabu tried to reign in some of Naoko's more outlandish ideas. He's the one responsible for the reason why Ami didn't become a cyborg and that we didn't get a much more tragic ending then we could've. I think if you look at what Naoko's original intentions for the series were and the way each of her endings tried to end on some sort of sour note, it's obvious that she was always wanting to write a really balls-to the walls incredibly grim take on the Magical Girl genre, unfortunately both the corporate demands of both Toei & Kodansha, as well as the age range their general audience comprised of really limited her in this way. You could really feel her frustration at them in how she was forced "to tone it down" in both her notes and even the Stars arc itself, which particularly felt like an angry "[BLEEP] you, I'll do what I want!" middle finger to the whole lot of Osabu/Toei/Kodansha/Bandai. Ikuhara was limited too mind, which is why SuperS turned out the mess that it did, no wonder he ended up leaving Toei.


I think that if Sailor Moon had been an independent project not dependent on toy line sales with all the creative freedom that entailed, and worked on jointly by Naoko, Ikuhara, Junichi Sato and the writer/director of PGSM as one cohesive team (think something like CLAMP) it really could've rivaled Evangelion in depth and would've been it's Mahou Shojo equivalent. All the talent was there, unfortunately it was ultimately held back by corporate shilling and the desire to aim it at a younger demographic that might not've been entirely appropriate for the certain themes it was trying to tackle.
 
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Likes: kasumigenx
Feb 8, 2021
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#72
I think that if Sailor Moon had been an independent project not dependent on toy line sales with all the creative freedom that entailed, and worked on jointly by Naoko, Ikuhara, Junichi Sato and the writer/director of PGSM as one cohesive team (think something like CLAMP) it really could've rivaled Evangelion in depth and would've been it's Mahou Shojo equivalent. All the talent was there, unfortunately it was ultimately held back by corporate shilling and the desire to aim it at a younger demographic that might not've been entirely appropriate for the certain themes it was trying to tackle.
I think SM being based on toys is why Usagi is named after Bunny or Rabbit when Usagi could be named as Utena, Shizuka, or Sekai which suits better her manga personality and backstory.
 
Jul 6, 2018
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The problem with the princess-slave relationship is that the author didn't decide on the approach she wanted to take. For example, in the first arc the girls are nothing more than battle partners. Most of their meetings were held in the command centre to talk about the enemy or the mission they had to accomplished. Once the princess had awoken, Usagi started being treated as The Master. After defeating that ridiculous black fart / gas creature called Queen Metalia, Takeuchi tried to sell that there is a deep and true bond of friendship between the girls to the reader by illustrating a panel where the girls warmly hugged each other. It's not believable.

If the author wanted to show us the existence of a princess-slave relationship, that's fine. However, I think she should've been more consistent about it. It is impossible for the Senshis to change their relationship from one panel to another. Naoko didn't show the reader how those powerful bonds of friendship were forged and that she insisted so much on. The kind of friendship she tried to represent needs a maturing process.



I forgot.

I reckon you shouldn't compare Sailor Galaxia's years of solitude to Sailor Moon's sudden loss. As I said Usagi had it all. When Galaxia takes everything away from her, Usagi gets in a paddy, and decides to get everything back to be happy again. The loneliness that Galaxia experiences is deeply ingrained compared to the unexpected shock Usagi gets. And as I said, Usagi has never cared about her "friends", she has never experienced arguments, breakups, nobody said anything every time Usagi was wrong, how could a spoiled girl give moral lessons to someone who was suffering more than her?
Galaxia never got any better. You cannot really realize you are missing something, unless you have had it prior. Yes, Galaxia is lonely, but based on her story, she has never ever had friends to realize how much it hurts. Yet alone your true love nor daughter, nor future, your family, your planet that was full of life and people you know or battle numerous times to keep safe.
 
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yaya_ikuto

Lumen Cinererum
Jan 16, 2018
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Yeah, it's a well-known fact that Osabu tried to reign in some of Naoko's more outlandish ideas. He's the one responsible for the reason why Ami didn't become a cyborg and that we didn't get a much more tragic ending then we could've. I think if you look at what Naoko's original intentions for the series were and the way each of her endings tried to end on some sort of sour note, it's obvious that she was always wanting to write a really balls-to the walls incredibly grim take on the Magical Girl genre, unfortunately both the corporate demands of both Toei & Kodansha, as well as the age range their general audience comprised of really limited her in this way. You could really feel her frustration at them in how she was forced "to tone it down" in both her notes and even the Stars arc itself, which particularly felt like an angry "[BLEEP] you, I'll do what I want!" middle finger to the whole lot of Osabu/Toei/Kodansha/Bandai. Ikuhara was limited too mind, which is why SuperS turned out the mess that it did, no wonder he ended up leaving Toei.


I think that if Sailor Moon had been an independent project not dependent on toy line sales with all the creative freedom that entailed, and worked on jointly by Naoko, Ikuhara, Junichi Sato and the writer/director of PGSM as one cohesive team (think something like CLAMP) it really could've rivaled Evangelion in depth and would've been it's Mahou Shojo equivalent. All the talent was there, unfortunately it was ultimately held back by corporate shilling and the desire to aim it at a younger demographic that might not've been entirely appropriate for the certain themes it was trying to tackle.
yeah and she got frustrated when they turn down her and yet put it in the 90s anime like in the end of the first season
i think would have been darker mahou shoujo or more darker than madoka magica
mh and now toei censor some of that darker parts in crystal xD
and it suppose to be for much old audience XD
well yeah it still have little darker parts, but i think the movies not much owo
 
Likes: kasumigenx
Nov 16, 2016
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2. One of the praises of this saga is the great character development of the supporting cast. But what I saw was how the bad psychological depiction kept going. The Inner Senshi dreamt about being a soldier, protecting their princess and saving the world rather than dreaming as human beings. The author kept treating these characters as a piece or a tool to move the story, like something disposable, also maintaining that cold Princess - slave relationship forged in their previous lives.
I really hate this in particular. Ami wants to be a doctor? Rei wants to run the shrine? Makoto wants to get married and run a flower shop? Minako wants to be an idol? Nope. They *really* want to be the best soldiers possible, and to protect the prince and princess. They even stop calling Usagi and Mamoru by their names near the end of the Dream arc. Meanwhile the 90's anime goes out of it way to say that they're not giving up on their dreams or their mission.