Is Toei regretting Crystal's initial concept?

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Crystal Moon

Luna Crescens
Jul 11, 2013
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#61
^ that season NEEDS frames fixed. Are we suddenly forgetting about the NQS errors or the sloppy/weird animation of the last episodes?
Did they know they made errors when checking the videos (while recording character voices, composing soundtracks...). Or they already knew but decided to ignore it?
 

chevkraken

Lapis Lunaris
Aug 16, 2016
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#62
^ that season NEEDS frames fixed. Are we suddenly forgetting about the NQS errors or the sloppy/weird animation of the last episodes?
if you talk about the very weird and ugly face during Mitress nine transformation, it's not error, it's part of Chiaki Kon style.
It's what I call Higurashi Face (because it's made the popularity of Higurashi anime)


Chiki Kon came from studio Deen who have a very weark animation departement(the serie are good but with very average animation) so the director and animator working for the studio learned tricks to create a mood with low budget animation

I don't like the idea as much because the focus will be on the youngsters, Naoko's characters would be stereotipical moms played of for laughs and it could have been just another PreCure season
But focus on the youngster is far more interessting because with already 5 season about the old one, they are character who don't need many focus.
And actually, no, I don't think the character would have been just some stereotipical moms, they would have been legend.
Tsubomi grand mother in Heartcatch Precure is far from being the sterotypical Grand mother, she even fight alone against the final boss while the heroine need to be 4 to defeat him, she is a mentor.
And I want to point Saint seiya Omega season one who feature the Bronze 5 from the original serie as great hero and legend who can't fight because of a curse and also feature character as much interesting as the old.
Nanoha Strikers also feature Nanoha and Fate only as support character and it's not bad.
Nerissa arc in WITCH is even more interesting as we learn the old WITCH group got dissolved when one of the magical girl of the group finished to be Jealous from the leader and kill her to take her place and now she is the new antagonist, it's even more interesting because the arc happen when a WITCH just left the group because her role give her to much pressure and she felt manipulated by the Oracle.

Chaning the character is better when the old character have nothing more to tell and actually making them as mother of the heroine could have been interesting because it explore the mother/daughter relationship and the fact they put their daughter in danger and make them fight. It even could explore the problem of being a magical girl while being a mother and an housewive(something the incredibles movies explore and was the core of bewitched who was the show who inspired the magical girl genre)
 
Jul 6, 2018
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#63
Chaning the character is better when the old character have nothing more to tell and actually making them as mother of the heroine could have been interesting because it explore the mother/daughter relationship and the fact they put their daughter in danger and make them fight. It even could explore the problem of being a magical girl while being a mother and an housewive (something the incredibles movies explore and was the core of bewitched who was the show who inspired the magical girl genre)[/QUOTE said:
Of course people have different thing they want from their franchaise. I have already wanted to see the manga story, and don't get me wrong, I love Heart Catch Precure, I can't imagine it working. Plus they wanted it to be the parallel story in a way, which was a cute short PARODY of the old senshi, that is why I think they could have done that.Nobody even said it would be a sequel, but a reboot from they 1, which implies the moms wouldn' t be the same guardians from the past, but just the moms of the main characters. If it was a more serious concept of future Crystal Tokyo, Chibi Usa and the sailor steroids I would have no problem, but the way it was presented it was just like new Precure season, and not Sailor Moon at all. Everyone has opinion, but the whole show was commissioned by Kodansha for the manga anniversary, so I'm not surprised nobody green lit that.
 

chevkraken

Lapis Lunaris
Aug 16, 2016
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#64
Nobody even said it would be a sequel, but a reboot from they 1, which implies the moms wouldn' t be the same guardians from the past, but just the moms of the main characters. If it was a more serious concept of future Crystal Tokyo, Chibi Usa and the sailor steroids I would have no problem, but the way it was presented it was just like new Precure season, and not Sailor Moon at all.
As it's work for Precure what is the problem to make this for sailormoon, Precure was not planned to change character and concept every season at the beginning.
Toei proposed a concept who work who is made for kids from 2010's, A adaptation of the manga not going to work because the fanbase is just too small.
And actually one of the season of Precure is nearly a reboot of another magical girl, adding it Precure element and it's worked. It's Heartcatch Precure. Heartcatch Precure is in many aspect more a new Doremi serie that a Precure series (except the mix magical girl action, Heartcatch don't use any trope of the Precure Licence, it's an UFO in the licence) and the producers where aware of it and using it for the marketing
And actually if we said Sailormoon like that would have been another season of Precure, we can say Every magical sentai is a new season of Precure(like Tokyo MewMew). We can even say Yes that Cutey honey F is not a Cutey honey serie but a new sailormoon serie.
A sailor Precure would have been excelent, and If an adaptation of Doremi 16 is never made a reboot or of Doremi as Doremi Precure(It would be even more cool if Heartcatch and Doremi happened in the same universe)
Actually, I think even a reboot would have been more interesting than a straight adaptation of the manga, a reboot can also be better than a bad sequel where old character have a bad utilisation.
Star wars 7/8 and titles like saint seiya Soul of Gold, Lost canvas and Omega season 2 are title where the old character are just a burden to the title as it implied too much fanservice for the fan.

A rebooot with not even 1 character from the original serie and just the same mythology would have be the best
 
Jul 6, 2018
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#65
When I think about it, considering I have read some stuff about the industry as a whole. From Toei point of view they wouldn't have wanted Crystal to be insanely successful. As Sailor Moon is not their unique property and they have to share revenue with two other sides - Naoko and Kodansha and they were commissioned by Kodansha to do it in the first place, they would have never wanted to create of it something that would rival PreCure. PreCure is their own cow they can milk endlessly, while Sailor Moon is a cow they share and can milk for no more than 5 seasons. On the other hand if they refused to do Crystal there would have been problems with the old show, which is still a respected cow of it's own. Naoko on the other hand might have wanted another studio to work with, but was advized against it because with Evangelion we know how hard it gets when a franchise is handled by two different studios and all the problems. So if they couldn't assimilate it with PreCure, they decided to give it the scarce treatment possible.
Please do not get me wrong - I enjoy PreCure for it's magic and characters and good animation, but Sailor Moon is old revival with mostly adult fanbase, so a PreCure similar handling wouldn't have worked. Kids would have loved it, but they have never been the main Crystal target anyway.
 

SailorSugababe

Luna Crescens
Sep 8, 2011
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#66
I dont think a change of cast would make a good Sailor Moon sequel or even side series. One of the best things about Sailor Moon is its rich cast and lore. There's also enough loose ends in both manga and anime that could provide as a solid base for a potential sequel.

Only because Precure is doing fine with changing cast each year doesnt mean it would work for Sailor Moon.
 
Jul 6, 2018
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#67
I dont think a change of cast would make a good Sailor Moon sequel or even side series. One of the best things about Sailor Moon is its rich cast and lore. There's also enough loose ends in both manga and anime that could provide as a solid base for a potential sequel.

Only because Precure is doing fine with changing cast each year doesnt mean it would work for Sailor Moon.
I completely agree. Sailor Moon has so many stuff that could be expanded on, and it can accomplish so much being both cute and pretty and mature and dark at once.I believe if they have came with something decent plot-wisely with expansion of the story, nobody would have stopped them. But maybe that is what they were commissioned by Kodansha - do a manga adaptation, here is your budget - which was scarce and TOEI have never been a studio that could produce something nice with the slightest budget cuts.
 

Psajdak

Lapis Lunaris
Jan 7, 2010
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#68
Having only seen first 3 episodes of Crystal when it aired, I shouldn't be saying anything, but I am simply happy, no matter which studio, new SM anime simply became truth, when it was first announced.

Prior it, it seemed like SM, as far as animation is concerned, was done in 90s.

Btw, speaking of Precure, lovely series, but can't help, but hate most of pink ones, especially Mana. :(
 

Tuxedo Kevin

Lumen Cinereum
Nov 22, 2016
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#71
I think she was coerced by Kodansha/Toei to do the remaining arcs for the $$$$. :P
Osabu: Naoko, your story is a hit. You need to draw more.
Naoko: But Osa, the pressure is so much. I can't take it no more!
Osabu: When Toei screws the anime, you may stop.
Naoko: But Osa, I'm so exhausted.
Osabu: Think of the Porsches you can buy.
*Naoko takes a breath and starts drawing a sketch of Chibiusa*
 

chevkraken

Lapis Lunaris
Aug 16, 2016
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#72
Only because Precure is doing fine with changing cast each year doesnt mean it would work for Sailor Moon.
Actually it's not working just for Precure, it's work also for kamen rider, Power ranger and Digimon. 3 series made by Toei, it work also for Sunrise with Gundam who is the most successful series in japan, same for the long running manga Jojo Bizarre adventure.
(And I want to point that the great JRPG series also change the cast after each game because after 60 hours there is nothing more to add about the cast)
Every title need a change of cast after 150 episodes of a show, change the lore is not needed(and would be a bad idea), but the cast...
There is nothing more to said about the original sailorsenshi, even the last season of the original show were more about the antagonist than the main characters

But we meet here a major problem in every franchise (and the reason behind the stagnation of maany franchise) There "what a Show need to evolve and to be interesting, and what the fan wants"

The gold saint in Saint seiya are not need, they even are the Poison of the series, but the fan want it, they don't buy the serie without the Gold. It's why saint seiya is Doomed.

The main problem of Dragonball Super came from they fact the serie focus too much on Goku and Vegeta and even make return old character like C17, Future Trunks and Freezer. It's odd when DBZ tried to make Gohan, Trunks and Goten take the main role in Boo saga. But as Goku, Vegeta and Freezer are more popular than Gohan, Goten and kid Trunks, the show focus on them even if it make the serie less good

And it's similar for sailormoon, the original cast is not needed, they are character overused, they already received more than 150 episode and except by changing their role, their is nothing new to tell about them. But the fan can't see a serie without them.

they would have never wanted to create of it something that would rival PreCure. PreCure is their own cow they can milk endlessly, while Sailor Moon is a cow they share and can milk for no more than 5 seasons.
actually, I read Toei financial report each years in 2014 and 2015, Precure series made the worst sales of the licence, Toei animation made as more money from sailormoon than Precure. Toei was unable to export Pretty Cure out of japan.Pretty Cure is slowly dying since Heartcatch have been concluded (the sale and TV rating are lower each years).
Precure regain the third place in Toei animation report in 2016 in 2017 only because of Glitter Force but in Japan, the problem is still the same, Pretty cure populary continue to fall.
It's the reason Toei wanted Sailormoon to take the place of Precure. By doing a Reboot there was no obligation to limit the serie to 5 season.

And Pretty Cure, even with it's own popularity is still only the third magical girl show in term of money earned. Sailor Moon and Winx are the 2 firsts(and actually it's nearly impossible to said which one is first between the 2)

Naoko on the other hand might have wanted another studio to work with,
Actually, she can't. while Sailor V is her manga, Sailormoon was co created by Toei animation. Sailormoon is a project similar to Dragonball Super, nor the manga and the anime are the original, the two are the original. Toei can't do a sailormoon serie, but Naoko can't do a anime version of sailormoon without Toei animation

but Sailor Moon is old revival with mostly adult fanbase, so a PreCure similar handling wouldn't have worked. Kids would have loved it, but they have never been the main Crystal target anyway.
Toei wanted the kid to be the Target of the show, they wanted to expand the fanbase.
Toei animation always said it, they are doing show for kids and are not interested about doing show for adult except if some director want to create some original (like Pop in Q, Kado, Kyosogiga and Mononoke).
The reason Pretty Cure failed to find it way in west for long time is because Toei refused distributor who would have aimed the serie for adult in west, they prefrre that Saban make their own serie with Pretty cure than exporting the serie for adult.
They also refused Dragonball Super to be simulcasted in west and said "Dragonball Super will be only showed in West on TV with a dub because simulcast and Sub are not made for kids"
Toei wanted the revival of sailormoon to be aimed for kids, like the original was.

And I don't understand why an anniversary project would have been aimed for original public.

Are you aware than Saint seiya Omega was the 25 years anniversary project for Saint seiya and Toei made what they planned to do with their Precured Sailormoon(But Kurumada is not like Naoko, he know saint seiya didn't age well and wanted to give to the kid their Saint seiya, so he said ok, like he say ok to every project who expand the serie).
And the 60 years anniversary project of Toei animation was not a serie who made the studio popular, it was Pop In Q, a show who have nothing to do with Toei works.
And the 40 years anniversary project of Tatsunoko biggest licence serie Gatchaman was Gatchaman crowds, a Show who have nearly nothing with the original serie (and was handled by a Toei animation director)

the show was hated by the fan of Gatchaman but was loved by the new public and it was what the serie needed because Gatchaman is an old serie and have no place in 2010's

I thinks it the same for Sailormoon the title who is too much marked as a 90's series, the character are cliché, the charadesign seem dated, the mood seem dated(long skirt middle school uniform and arcade gamer in 2014 is just silly)

The character, story and design need to be changed to fit better to 2014 public. The concept of Crystal is a bad idea because of that, between 2000 and 2003 for the 10 years of sailormmon, it would have been a good idea, but 10 years later no...

and TOEI have never been a studio that could produce something nice with the slightest budget cuts.
Actually it not fully correct, Saint seiya Omega season 1 planning was an hell(Morio Hatano and Umakoshi took vacation just after it) and everything was rushed and there was many budget limitation.
But the serie is good and even better than the original in some aspect because it's made by people who have a nearly complete freedom to do what they wanted and love their work. Umakoshi started to work on animation because of saint seiya movie and he said Saint seiya Omega was the serie where he had the biggest amount of liberty to create his design because there was no original work to follow and no need to create design to make goodies and Hatano said the staff made the storie they wanted even when they took the risk to provoke censorship.

Actually Toei animation don't do good works when they make a serie they don't want to do just because of a contract or if someone force them to follow a bad story(it's pretty clear Dragonball Super problem came also from the fact Toriyama produce an uninteresting storyline and Toei is not motivated to animated it, by exemple)

Sailormoon Crystal is not the Sailormoon they wanted so the just just don't try, they doing this because they are forced by contract but make no effort to make it good
 
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Jul 6, 2018
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#73
Most studio don't even care much about DVD sales in the first place, otherwise half anime wouldn't have existed. Many shows like Chihaya furu made absmal sells of like 100 units but still get sequels. What they care about are ratings, money from tv channels, many big stuff in Japan are not widely licensed overseas and are still more valuable than stuff who do. Like Sailor Moon vs PreCure - Sailor Moon while being licensed more, can't bring the amount of money Bandai gives to TOEI for Precure, so they can design or popularize toys. Also Pretty Cure is very popular with pre-school girls in Japan, while Crystal III was a night time anime. Toei make more money from PreCure and it is one of their priorities for years because it is designed to sell toys, and they get plenty of cash for it, and don't even care for DVD sales and licences of it. As for the Omega parallel - Omega still had the funding of a TV show, most people were not really happy with it and it had hell more of budget than Crystal 1 and 2 as they were just an ONA. Look at other studios nowadays. Most anime actually have pretty much fixed budget per episode - but some studios deliver amazing stuff animation-wise. Toei has never been particularly good with TV shows - up to this day they still have jarring vastly different switches between designs and styles for episode like in Dragon Ballz Super, they can't produce with the exception of Pretty Cure a show with consistent character designs which I haven't seen on other studios in 2018. TOEI are better with movies, because they assign the good talent to them, but while nice an servicable their movies are never exceptionally animated.
 
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Neon Genesis

Luna Crescens
Oct 31, 2015
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#74
As much as I love Sailor Moon and will always consider it to be my favorite anime, after they finish Crystal, I feel like it's just fine to kill the franchise. Even if Naoko or Toei does something radically new and different, fans will just find something to complain about it and nitpick it apart. The fans have become so cynical to the franchise, and while some of the criticism is justified, I feel like there is no more joy in the fandom. I feel like most Sailor Moon fans are old and bitter towards the franchise and it's time to just move on to new more modern franchises. Expect if there's if actual news with substance, a new DVD release, or Tuxedo Unmasked writes a new interesting blog post, I don't really post that much about Sailor Moon on Twitter anymore. I'll still keep collecting the DVDs and I'll watch Crystal whenever it's out, but I've mostly moved on to new anime shows and movies. There's a lot of new and exciting original content coming out of Japan every year that I don't need to keep clinging to a dead franchise that most of the fandom clearly isn't happy with anymore. I'd love if we get at least get a Sailor V anime after Crystal, and we can maybe keep getting a new musical every year, and I would be ok with that much. But I don't really want a new story or new characters when there's simply no more joy to be had from being a fan and the fandom just feels joyless nowadays and I don't want to keep watching new content of a franchise I enjoy just to keep complaining and to be bitter about it. Let's just end it after Crystal.
 

chevkraken

Lapis Lunaris
Aug 16, 2016
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#75
Most studio don't even care much about DVD sales in the first place, otherwise half anime wouldn't have existed.
I don't talk about DVD sales(I know it's not accurate for day time show (for nighttime it's really important), I talk about Toei financial report(what they earn for each licence) they publish every years and about TV rating.
Actually if Precure is still a much more important serie than Sailormoon for Bandai, before Glitter Force was launch Precure was falling
in 2010, Toei earn 1400 millions of yen from pretty Cure(with 1200 only in japan)
in 2013, they earn only 950 millions from Pretty cure while Sailormoon earn 250 just with the release of the US bluray )
in 2014, Precure earned only 750 millions for Toei while sailormoon boosted by Crystal earned 650 millions
in 2015 Precure earned 930 million of Yen thanks to Glitter Force(only 600 in japan) while sailormoon earned 660 millions

As you see even with the bad marketing around Crystal, Sailormoon was just behind Precure so sailormoon as a kid show would have earn much more money to the Toei than Precure (who actually made 40% of their benefit from Netflix diffusion of Glitterforce because the serie is now only the half of it's great years in japan).

my source:
http://corp.toei-anim.co.jp/files/IR/26_4Q/201403_4Q_keisu.pdf
http://corp.toei-anim.co.jp/files/IR/30_4Q/201803_4Q_keisu.pdf

and Actually the TV ratings for Precure are also much lower than before, during the time of Max Heart the TV rating were around 8% between splash star and Heartcatch the serie was pretty stable with rating between 6,5 % and 7%, but after Heartcatch rating begun to fall and since Go Princess, it's between 3,5 and 4%, the serie is not even every week in the top ten of the most viewed show.

So I really think before the success of Glitter Force, Toei thought to replace Precure by Sailormoon has they were unable to found a distributor in west for Precure and the serie in japan was falling
 

Neon Genesis

Luna Crescens
Oct 31, 2015
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#77
I don't know anything about PreCure's ratings in Japan, but Glitter Force is hardly a "success" in the US. Pretty much nobody outside of already existing hardcore PreCure fans knows about Glitter Force as Saban did little marketing for the franchise. The rights ended up reverting back to Toei pretty quickly after they finished dubbing Doki Doki and now Hasbro owns the rights.
 
Jul 6, 2018
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#78
I don't talk about DVD sales(I know it's not accurate for day time show (for nighttime it's really important), I talk about Toei financial report(what they earn for each licence) they publish every years and about TV rating.
Actually if Precure is still a much more important serie than Sailormoon for Bandai, before Glitter Force was launch Precure was falling
in 2010, Toei earn 1400 millions of yen from pretty Cure(with 1200 only in japan)
in 2013, they earn only 950 millions from Pretty cure while Sailormoon earn 250 just with the release of the US bluray )
in 2014, Precure earned only 750 millions for Toei while sailormoon boosted by Crystal earned 650 millions
in 2015 Precure earned 930 million of Yen thanks to Glitter Force(only 600 in japan) while sailormoon earned 660 millions

As you see even with the bad marketing around Crystal, Sailormoon was just behind Precure so sailormoon as a kid show would have earn much more money to the Toei than Precure (who actually made 40% of their benefit from Netflix diffusion of Glitterforce because the serie is now only the half of it's great years in japan).

my source:
http://corp.toei-anim.co.jp/files/IR/26_4Q/201403_4Q_keisu.pdf
http://corp.toei-anim.co.jp/files/IR/30_4Q/201803_4Q_keisu.pdf

and Actually the TV ratings for Precure are also much lower than before, during the time of Max Heart the TV rating were around 8% between splash star and Heartcatch the serie was pretty stable with rating between 6,5 % and 7%, but after Heartcatch rating begun to fall and since Go Princess, it's between 3,5 and 4%, the serie is not even every week in the top ten of the most viewed show.

So I really think before the success of Glitter Force, Toei thought to replace Precure by Sailormoon has they were unable to found a distributor in west for Precure and the serie in japan was falling
I doubt that, Toe never lost interested in precure and it survived so many yeas without much licensing because they don't make it with that in mind. . TOEI get more than enough from Bandai to produce it each year - the whole concept with cute fairies is invented to sell toys. Precure is the Pokemon version of a magical girl show. With Sailor Moon things are different, it sells props and figurines, but it doesn't enough mascots.
 
Oct 31, 2009
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#79
TOEI get more than enough from Bandai to produce it each year - the whole concept with cute fairies is invented to sell toys. Precure is the Pokemon version of a magical girl show.
This!

It's the same thing with Super Sentai & Kamen Rider and there had been instances where the toys did better in comparison to the ratings (see Ohranger for example).
 

MariaTenebre

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 22, 2009
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#80
As much as I love Sailor Moon and will always consider it to be my favorite anime, after they finish Crystal, I feel like it's just fine to kill the franchise. Even if Naoko or Toei does something radically new and different, fans will just find something to complain about it and nitpick it apart. The fans have become so cynical to the franchise, and while some of the criticism is justified, I feel like there is no more joy in the fandom. I feel like most Sailor Moon fans are old and bitter towards the franchise and it's time to just move on to new more modern franchises. Expect if there's if actual news with substance, a new DVD release, or Tuxedo Unmasked writes a new interesting blog post, I don't really post that much about Sailor Moon on Twitter anymore. I'll still keep collecting the DVDs and I'll watch Crystal whenever it's out, but I've mostly moved on to new anime shows and movies. There's a lot of new and exciting original content coming out of Japan every year that I don't need to keep clinging to a dead franchise that most of the fandom clearly isn't happy with anymore. I'd love if we get at least get a Sailor V anime after Crystal, and we can maybe keep getting a new musical every year, and I would be ok with that much. But I don't really want a new story or new characters when there's simply no more joy to be had from being a fan and the fandom just feels joyless nowadays and I don't want to keep watching new content of a franchise I enjoy just to keep complaining and to be bitter about it. Let's just end it after Crystal.
I have to disagree I don't want the franchise to be killed. What I want is something of quality something that over all Crystal failed to be. I have always stated what I wanted more then anything else was a sequel to the 90s anime and if not that but something more like a reboot then something that combined the best points from the 90s, manga, video games, sera myu etc to create something new and interesting. Also fans of any fandom complain about everything however again if Toei gives us something of quality I think that many fans will like it if done well. The thing is that Crystal was not done very well. The animation was rather sketchy, the story tried to be a faithful adaptation of the manga and they failed even at that etc. Honestly for me personally if they were going to do another anime and it wasn't a sequel I would have liked something more akin to PGSM aka the same story with some new twists to make it interesting. I feel alot of joy as a fan and honestly I think that quality stories would bring more joy to the fandom.