Is Toei regretting Crystal's initial concept?

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Neon Genesis

Luna Crescens
Oct 31, 2015
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#81
We had a perfectly fine sequel with Cardcaptor Sakura Clear Card that had solid animation and production value issues that plagued Crystal but fans still complained about how Clear Card turned out. It will be the same thing with a Sailor Moon sequel as well. It's not just towards Crystal but I sense a lot of cynicism towards the franchise as a whole. Most fandom discussions these days seem to be complaining which version of the series is the worst, dub wars, political rants about the series, rants about Naoko, rants about Ikuhara, nitpicking apart plot holes and inconsistencies and the fandom just feels tired these days. I just want to finish collecting the show and for Crystal to finally finish and then I can move on to something else.
 
Jul 6, 2018
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#82
It is related to being adults, having high expectations, nostalgia. As an adult you see every flaw, and most franchases with mostly adult fanbase are hostile, demanding an cynical. I have introduced Crystal - blu ray version of course - to a few friends unfamiliar with Sailor Moon and all of them actually enjoyed it, no one said it is ugly, stupid etc and actually wanted more.
 
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SailorSugababe

Luna Crescens
Sep 8, 2011
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#83
As much as I love Sailor Moon and will always consider it to be my favorite anime, after they finish Crystal, I feel like it's just fine to kill the franchise. Even if Naoko or Toei does something radically new and different, fans will just find something to complain about it and nitpick it apart. The fans have become so cynical to the franchise, and while some of the criticism is justified, I feel like there is no more joy in the fandom. I feel like most Sailor Moon fans are old and bitter towards the franchise and it's time to just move on to new more modern franchises. Expect if there's if actual news with substance, a new DVD release, or Tuxedo Unmasked writes a new interesting blog post, I don't really post that much about Sailor Moon on Twitter anymore. I'll still keep collecting the DVDs and I'll watch Crystal whenever it's out, but I've mostly moved on to new anime shows and movies. There's a lot of new and exciting original content coming out of Japan every year that I don't need to keep clinging to a dead franchise that most of the fandom clearly isn't happy with anymore. I'd love if we get at least get a Sailor V anime after Crystal, and we can maybe keep getting a new musical every year, and I would be ok with that much. But I don't really want a new story or new characters when there's simply no more joy to be had from being a fan and the fandom just feels joyless nowadays and I don't want to keep watching new content of a franchise I enjoy just to keep complaining and to be bitter about it. Let's just end it after Crystal.
I disagree. The complaining fanbase isnt something exclusive to Sailor Moon. In fact i would say SM still has one of the tamest fanbases i've been part of. Have you ever been a part of Pokemon fanbase? Oh dead lord, THATS a toxic fanbase if i ever seen one. But there are more and more others aswell.

Also i think its more of a internet issue in general, people complain and whine about everything.

If we'll get new Crystal movies (and then Stars) and maybe new SM stuff after that will there be critisicm and complains? Of course there will be! Why should we want death of our beloved franchise though? Because of something thats pretty standard everywhere on the internet? I hope the franchise lives on and keeps on growing. If i dont like something particular about it i just ignore it. Like the musicals. Im not a big fan in general but im happy for those who love them.
 
Oct 31, 2009
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Wallington, NJ
#84
I disagree. The complaining fanbase isnt something exclusive to Sailor Moon. In fact i would say SM still has one of the tamest fanbases i've been part of. Have you ever been a part of Pokemon fanbase? Oh dead lord, THATS a toxic fanbase if i ever seen one. But there are more and more others aswell.
This is true, look at Dragon Ball, Sonic the Hedgehog, Tenchi Muyo, Rick & Morty and Steven Universe.

It's not a current issue either since it was a problem in the past as well like with for example, Naruto (early Shippuden years when that show was watchable), Lupin III (when the Fujiko series came out), Gundam (specifically with UC fans) & Power Rangers (though they are pretty toxic now, they were a lot worse during the Disney years).
 
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#85
By the way has anyone asked that fellow Yasuharu Takanashi, if he knows something. I know he spill beans a lot to fans in English as bad as mine. I would have asked myself, but I avoid Facebook like the plague.
 

Tuxedo Kevin

Lumen Cinereum
Nov 22, 2016
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#86
We had a perfectly fine sequel with Cardcaptor Sakura Clear Card that had solid animation and production value issues that plagued Crystal but fans still complained about how Clear Card turned out. It will be the same thing with a Sailor Moon sequel as well. It's not just towards Crystal but I sense a lot of cynicism towards the franchise as a whole. Most fandom discussions these days seem to be complaining which version of the series is the worst, dub wars, political rants about the series, rants about Naoko, rants about Ikuhara, nitpicking apart plot holes and inconsistencies and the fandom just feels tired these days. I just want to finish collecting the show and for Crystal to finally finish and then I can move on to something else.
Clear Card had good animation, but it was too... sweet. Cardcaptor Sakura has always been sweet but every Clear Card episode had the characters getting extra happy over how delicious their food was and other silly things. I had to drop it because I was "getting cavities" just like Dic Queen Beryl would say.
 

chevkraken

Lapis Lunaris
Aug 16, 2016
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#87
We had a perfectly fine sequel with Cardcaptor Sakura Clear Card that had solid animation and production value issues that plagued Crystal but fans still complained about how Clear Card turned out. It will be the same thing with a Sailor Moon sequel as well. It's not just towards Crystal but I sense a lot of cynicism towards the franchise as a whole. Most fandom discussions these days seem to be complaining which version of the series is the worst, dub wars, political rants about the series, rants about Naoko, rants about Ikuhara, nitpicking apart plot holes and inconsistencies and the fandom just feels tired these days. I just want to finish collecting the show and for Crystal to finally finish and then I can move on to something else.
Production value is not the only thing fan wants, Production values of the season 3 of Crystal was excellent. the problem came from the story, it's just the manga and the story of the manga is average at best.
And it's the same problem with Clear card, the sequel was just unecessary, Sakura ending was excellent and the story of Clear card is unecessary but also uninspired, it add nearly nothing to Sakura.
It's the problem of making a sequel, a Good sequel need to be need or if it's not it need to be inspired, retelling nearly the same thing that the old serie but not as good is a problem.
Actually it's why changing the cast, where happen the sequel or setting the sequel many years after the original allow to make better sequel (when the staff don't make fanservice like in Starwars 7 and just retell the same story than before but with new character)

Actually it's why I would have loved a nearly tottaly new cast for the serie and the old cast being only see in flashback (and Chibi Usa being here but old and only as Support character)

Actually I think a good sequel or reboot need to but respectful of the original serie but need to ignore the fans and.

Some exemple of good sequels in animation for me is Last Exile fam and the season 1 of Saint Seiya Omega and a good exemple of Reboot(much easier than sequel) is Lupin 4th serie, Gatchaman crowds and Casshern sins

Glitter Force is no success, if it was then it would be selling loads of merchandise by now like Precure is in Japan.
Actually the goodies have been ordered to Hasbro but Saban went bankrupt because Power rangers movie so they where unable to pay it.
And actually the serie being on Netflix, Toei animation don't need the serie being a big hit, as the serie is shown non stop every years Toei received money every years and Saban need to pay Toei even the serie is not a succes. It cost many money to Saban but for Toei, it's a success.
On the financial report it's shown Glitter force earn as much in west each year than Saint seiya in the whole world each year between 2007 and 2015 (and saint seiya was the 4th biggest licence of Toei animation), Glitter force earn 2 time more what a good season of Digimon earn.

Actually Glitter force earn to Toei more than sailormoon was earning each years to the studio during 90's

So Glitter force seem not to be a success and it's maybe not for Saban (if it was really not Hasbro would have not by the rights of the serie) but it a big success for Toei animation as Toei is paid even if the serie is a failure

TOEI get more than enough from Bandai to produce it each year - the whole concept with cute fairies is invented to sell toys. Precure is the Pokemon version of a magical girl show. With Sailor Moon things are different, it sells props and figurines, but it doesn't enough mascots.
actually, not so much anymore, nearly every Presentation material released with the Financial report since 2015 comment Pretty Cure revenue as being weak, the financial result included what the studio earn by Bandai, so the sales of Goodies are decreasing too and Sailormoon Crystal earned nearly at much.
Actually if Toei had replaced Precure with a new sailormoon, you could be sur the design would have been rethink to sale more toys, with Luna and Artemis (or there successor being redesigned to look more like Hummy from Suite Precure)
And actually not being a failure in US don't mean being a failure in the whole world (by exemple, France by 10 times more manga than the US, from a French point of view manga are not popular in US)
I have talked about Saint seiya, it's the 4th biggest licence of Toei animation but it's just not popular in US.
Maybe Glitter Force worked out of USA.
 
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#88
I beg to disagree about one thing - excellent production values for Season III - not in the slightest. Making derpy designs that still barely move an constant recaps, overused stock footage. Third season didn't have better budget - it had generic designs, done by the animation director equivallent of Masahiro Ando in the first two arcs, that animate easy and bare minimum of animation, most of it was still out sourced. Despite the better planing and adaptation animation was not really improved. Everything was downgraded to the level of talent, or the lack of talent, brought to the project.And this is what made people so disappointed - the manga still sells very well and has been for 26 years. Crystal would have been received much better with decent animation and better scripts for the first season. Every show with predominant audience of people over their 12s is judget by production values. . What we got was animation that could have been considered bad even in the late 90s and yes this include parts of Season 3. As for Glitter Force the only dub I know about is in Russia and it is not very well received there as well.And a Sailor Moon reboot full of tiny creatures screaming "Ichiki Daichuki Deshhhhh - popo!!!!" instead of all the mythology and mystery wouldn't have been well received anywhere either.
 
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SailorSugababe

Luna Crescens
Sep 8, 2011
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#89
I beg to disagree about one thing - excellent production values for Season III - not in the slightest. Making derpy designs that still barely move an constant recaps, overused stock footage. Third season didn't have better budget - it had generic designs, done by the animation director equivallent of Masahiro Ando in the first two arcs, that animate easy and bare minimum of animation, most of it was still out sourced. Despite the better planing and adaptation animation was not really improved.
I disagree with that. The animation was a lot more fluid even outside of the stock footage (which was pretty good too)



 
Jul 6, 2018
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#90
It is more fluid for the expense of details, shadows, depth, ugly fukus, bubble hair..., They simply traded one for the other. Even if we consider it improvement, calling it excellent is a big overstatement. The first two seasons had some fluid moments as well, without sacrificing anything. For me there is absolutely no difference in the end of the day. One was more static, the other much less detailed and generic looking. Don't get me wrong I still enjoyed both but I can see why people criticized both. The redone season 3 style though is probably what is most to my liking of all i have seen so far - the one used for Halloween and the Eagle's Girls promotion as well as season 3 box art

 
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SailorSugababe

Luna Crescens
Sep 8, 2011
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#92
It is more fluid for the expense of details, shadows, depth, ugly fukus, bubble hair..., They simply traded one for the other. Even if we consider it improvement, calling it excellent is a big overstatement. The first two seasons had some fluid moments as well, without sacrificing anything. For me there is absolutely no difference in the end of the day. One was more static, the other much less detailed and generic looking. Don't get me wrong I still enjoyed both but I can see why people criticized both. The redone season 3 style though is probably what is most to my liking of all i have seen so far - the one used for Halloween and the tennis promotion as well as season 3 box art

I would never say S3 was excellent but i still think overall it was better quality animation wise. S1-2 had those pretty detailed designs but the problem was that outside of few instances (half of ep 21, bits of ep 25 etc) the characters rarely looked as good as those designs and the animation was very choppy. S3 had 2 poor looking episodes and some other derp moments here and there but in general they were fluid and stayed true to the designs. Toei just isnt willing to pay enough money and people to do right the s1-2 style
 

chevkraken

Lapis Lunaris
Aug 16, 2016
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#93
I beg to disagree about one thing - excellent production values for Season III - not in the slightest. Making derpy designs that still barely move an constant recaps, overused stock footage. Third season didn't have better budget - it had generic designs, done by the animation director equivallent of Masahiro Ando in the first two arcs, that animate easy and bare minimum of animation, most of it was still out sourced. Despite the better planing and adaptation animation was not really improved. Everything was downgraded to the level of talent, or the lack of talent, brought to the project.And this is what made people so disappointed - the manga still sells very well and has been for 26 years. Crystal would have been received much better with decent animation and better scripts for the first season. Every show with predominant audience of people over their 12s is judget by production values. . What we got was animation that could have been considered bad even in the late 90s and yes this include parts of Season 3.
Bad animation from late 90 no, clearly no, the worst part of season 3 would but bad animation from 2010. and it's pretty rare.
I disagree about everything in this message. The season 1 chara design was just bad, so bad, the character were like doll, and the proportion were so wrong. the directing was just very cliché due to a Director who nearly never worked on shojo manga. the serie even used bad 3D footage to reduce the cost
Season 3 chara design was not generic, it was lively and thought to be useful.
Stock Footage is used in nearly every magical girl, it's traditionnal and Derpy and Ugly face for creepy moment is the style of the Director, The transformation of Mistress 9 is the best part of Season 3 and it's were we seen Chiaki Kon Style and the fact she is a great director.
And actually it's also here than the directing of season 3 is great, the Director don't trie to copy the manga, she create her own way to tell the story.
An actually animation is season 3 is much better because it's often show complex movement hard to animate (there is combat choregraphy in season 3, not in the 2 first)
Actually animation in crystal is as good as most of the night show and better than some of the Precure season(better than mahou Tsukai, Suite, DokiDoki or KiraKira)

And a Sailor Moon reboot full of tiny creatures screaming "Ichiki Daichuki Deshhhhh - popo!!!!" instead of all the mythology and mystery wouldn't have been well received anywhere either.
Tiny creatures and Mythology and mystery could have been here together(heartcatch Precure is a Precure season with mythology and Tiny creatures)... An actually, it could have received a bad reception from old fan but could have please a new Public.

One again I want to point Gatchaman crowds who was hated by old fan but loved by new fans. I could also point My little Pony or Duck Tales 2017 who take to choice to make the reboot very different from the original and didn't tried to please the old fan.
 
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MariaTenebre

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 22, 2009
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#94
We had a perfectly fine sequel with Cardcaptor Sakura Clear Card that had solid animation and production value issues that plagued Crystal but fans still complained about how Clear Card turned out. It will be the same thing with a Sailor Moon sequel as well. It's not just towards Crystal but I sense a lot of cynicism towards the franchise as a whole. Most fandom discussions these days seem to be complaining which version of the series is the worst, dub wars, political rants about the series, rants about Naoko, rants about Ikuhara, nitpicking apart plot holes and inconsistencies and the fandom just feels tired these days. I just want to finish collecting the show and for Crystal to finally finish and then I can move on to something else.
Well I personally don't want to move on to something else as I like Sailor Moon and want it to continue. Also most fans I have seen have praised Clear Card arc and want more of it. People in fandoms always complain it is what they do again if we get something of quality with Sailor Moon I think that the majority of fans would like it however some people can never be pleased but I definitely want the series to continue I don't want to to die and then for me to move on to something else and no real fan world.
 
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#95
It is what it is, we cannot change it but we an hope for good production values for these movies. I hope they reveal the new designs soon at least, although I would have liked if they used the update Season 3 designs. They are more balanced, look even more like the 10th anniversary cover art and the mouths are not as wide, eyes look better with the iconic white part (sorry I don't know the exact word) and the hair ubbles are less rubbery.Too bad I haven't see art with the outers in this style.





 
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#97
I am not familiar with all the Precure seasons, but the transformations and stock footage are way more elaborate than Crystal's, even season III. Most late night shows are on tighter budget, but I have never seen Sailor Muhrs* syndrome on any of them produced around the time Crystal was. It is not really matter of budget as most anime is produced on almost fixed budget per episode, but planning, schedules and outsourcing Crystal didn't have less of a budget than most late night anime, but the planning was bad, which is Toei main problem in general - they rely on free-lancers and last minute out sourcing, which jeopardized the animation director's work as they have deadlines to meet. As far as I know that is why Yukie stopped working as animation director after episode 4, she made a comment how Toei screwed the job of the animation director who couldn't correct so many errors on time. This is the reason she refused to sign a new contract for season 3. Munehisa Sakai has done good job in some Heart catch episodes, but to direct a whole shoujo series was beyond his experience. Chiaki Kon is good director, Tadano is experienced character designer and most of the movies Toei make, excluding tv movies, are done by their in-house stuff. So the movies will turn out pleasing to the eye. And if they opt for dynamic real time attacks, instead of dragged out stock footage, don't overdo the transformations and make them 2 h each, we can get a proper adaptation too. I hope for a new scriptwriter as well, although I really hope the art director comes back - for all the other problems, the art direction was solid fom eyecatches and title cards to water-colored backgrounds.

*Sailor Muhrs:

 
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MariaTenebre

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 22, 2009
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#98
I agree sapphire91 I loved those updated styles on the art you posted they look how season 3 should have looked.
 

chevkraken

Lapis Lunaris
Aug 16, 2016
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#99
No mention of Happiness Charge, why is that? :?
Because Hapiness charge animation was way better than Crystal, Hapiness charge is a pretty bad Precure, but the animation and the Directing is among the best from the franchise.

I don't really like the updated design, they look too much to the 90's serie design while season 3 design were really modern. mking a copy of the 90 serie (are the manga) is not interesting

And if they opt for dynamic real time attacks, instead of dragged out stock footage, don't overdo the transformations
They are not going to do that stock footage and transformation is part Magical girl genre, a fight not started by the stock footage transformation and stock footage attack is not natural. Even is the Pretty Cure allstar movie featuring 7 season of Precure, stock footage is used.
The magical girl fan want Stock footage. Asking to stock footage it's like asking no Megazord in Power ranger

Most late night shows are on tighter budget, but I have never seen Sailor Muhrs* syndrome on any of them produced around the time Crystal was. It is not really matter of budget as most anime is produced on almost fixed budget per episode, but planning, schedules and outsourcing Crystal didn't have less of a budget than most late night anime, but the planning was bad,
for the sailor Muhrs syndrome around the time of Crystal:
https://78.media.tumblr.com/e574aa1...ee33/tumblr_inline_oflcxuLxFQ1t2g70g_1280.png
https://adala-news.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Jojo-Arc-1-Bluray-1-image-000.jpg
http://2.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/13/33/312e25644aa7c378a5c4e0b68acdff12_13.mp4

and actually Sailormoon Crystal season 3 2D animation quality is better than some studio production (Deen, Pierrot, TMS, Gonzo or Satelight by exemple)

Planning was excellent for the season 3, some animator confirmed that on twitter, they worked on the episodes more than 6 month pror the begininning of the serie.
For the season 1 and 2, it was not a late night anime but ONA, so the Web version was just a free preview while the Bluray was the final. From the beginning, the japanese public was aware of that(actually Web serie have very low budget due to the low advertising showed during the episode and the fact these made very lower rating than TV series).
And actually since some years many studio release on TV non finalized episode to sell more DVD/bluray.
Shaft is know to do that, some other make excessive censorship just for that.
 
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Well, your Sailor Murhs examples are not even remotely as offensive. Some of the "quality" in season 1 and 2 wasn't fixed even for the blu-rays as well. Season 3 was better planned and it shows - it didn't have as many errors. I think I didn't explain what I meant about the stock footage and transformations. Of course transformation should be there, but no more than once per character, and if they make the stories of the inner senshi concurrently running, even combined so that they can safe time. As for the attacks - a lot of Magical Girls are doing real-time attacks, which can have beautiful quality to it like Cyprin's animation attack, without them being in an "alter universe" of hearts and doilles. Even the old Sailor Moon movies used real time attacks here and there. This can do both - show off gorgeously choreographed and dynamic animation, without wasting solid 10 minutes in them if combined.