Sailor Moon misconceptions I get tired of hearing

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MariaTenebre

Luna Crescens
Jul 22, 2009
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To address a few talking points

1. The season memorials not being canon doesn’t dispute that these are Usag’s actual opinions. She is, after all, a fictional characters whose opinions are influenced by the animators, writers, directors etc. This is no different than her introduction or next episode previews

2. I don’t recall Usagi ever giving an opinion on Haruka and Michiru’s relationship. She seems indifferent at best. I know plenty of teen girls/young adult women who were indifferent/aroused by girl on girl but grossed out by guy on guy. She could be squicked by Zoicite/Kunzite but indifferent to Haruka/Michiru. Most of the people working on the anime were men. Men who were more likely to have more favorable views toward lesbian relationships than gay males. We still have one episode where Usagi takes a pretty hardline heteronormative stance. Certaintly one could argue Usagi doesn’t care if these two cool sophisticated older girls are together she just doesn’t want her friend Mako to be gay

3. Even today Japan isn’t super progressive toward LGBT rights despite what some segments of fandom seek to think based on anime. It’s really not that surprising that Usagi, a teenage girl in the 90s may not have super liberal views on same sex relations
Again if they are not canon we do not know if these are Usagi's actual opinions. Next when I watched the show Usagi seemed very reverent with Haruka and Michiru's relationship admiring their sophistication and mutual love as a couple. Also even if say Usagi is grossed out by gay male relationships that dosen't mean she hates gay men. After all in SuperS she seemed to be friendly with that gay fashion designer and his lover and was shown to be very compassionate to Fisheye's situation. I mean I know very many straight guys who are say grossed out by yaoi stuff but are still pro gay rights.

Also we can't take certain non canon stuff as their necessary opinions. After all there was this one audio drama that basically said that Mamoru only really saw Usagi as a pet and wanted Ami as a wife and that clearly goes against everything in Mamoru's character. Likewise I could use the example of Sailor Moon Another Story where Rei secretly dreams that Mamoru will leave Usagi for her when she seems to be pretty much over Mamoru by the time of S and more or less has the will they, won't they relationship with Yuuichirou.
 
Mar 8, 2012
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Anything that happens in Another Story....is canon....for Another Story. But Another Story, though in part inspired by the 90s anime, is not part of the 90s anime, so of course anything that happens in it is irrelevant in a discussion of the 90s anime. Venus killing Beryl is canon in the manga and NogiMyu, but not in anything else. Sailor Luna is canon in the live action series but not anywhere else. Mamoru seeing Usagi as a pet is canon to that S audio drama and not anywhere else. Each iteration has its own canon; something doesn't have to be universal to be canon.

Are the Memorials expressly canon to the 90s anime? That is, do I think in the course of their lives, Usagi, Luna, Chibiusa, and Mamoru sat down at separate times to spend an hour reminiscing about the events of each season? No. But the Memorials aren't any less canon than the final episode of R which is expressly a part of the anime. You keep trying to dismiss the Memorials as not being canon, but then you also talk about the R Movie even though there's no way any of the movies fit into the timeline of the series. You can't have it both ways.

The Memorials are self-aware, meta recaps of each season, again in the vein of the final episode of R. They're light-hearted, but nowhere near the level of absurd, over-the-top self-parody of the S audio drama you keep bringing up. I don't know who wrote the narration for the Memorials, but it was probably someone who wrote for the series. There's no reason to think any of the opinions expressed by Usagi, Luna, Chibiusa, or Mamoru in them are contrary to how those characters felt in the series itself. If the makers of the anime didn't feel that Usagi would be grossed out by Kunzite and Zoisite's relationship, they wouldn't have had her gag while talking about them in the season 1 Memorial. End of.

Does Usagi admire Haruka and Michiru? Yes, but she views them INDIVIDUALLY as being mature and sophisticated; she doesn't view their relationship as such. Do we ever see her say to Mamoru, "I wish we could be more like Haruka and Michiru"? No. If she ever comments on their relationship, it's only to say things like "What an adult mood," referring to the sexual nature of their banter, not their maturity.

Being grossed out by gay male relationships = hating gay men. Of course straight guys are going to be grossed out by gay porn, just as gay guys would be grossed out by straight or lesbian porn. But there's a big difference between feeling uncomfortable watching people have sex and being reduced to gagging at the mere recollection of a same-sex couple.

Yeah Usagi's friendly with the gay fashion designer from SuperS...because she's a superficial, materialistic teen girl who wants him to make a pretty dress for her. Their interactions aren't exactly deep, I don't remember if she even meets his boyfriend, and given stereotypes about men in the fashion industry the designer's being gay was probably something she expected and thus wouldn't even respond to (but that doesn't necessarily mean she respects it). It's been a while since I last watched SuperS, so I'm not gonna comment on Usagi and Fish Eye, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say again that Usagi probably didn't fully grasp Fish Eye's orientation and even if she were sympathetic towards Fish Eye's unrequited love for Mamoru, that doesn't exactly mean she'd agree to go out and help him find another man.

Look, I'm not saying 90s anime Usagi is some virulent homophobe who grew up to join the Westboro Baptist Church and vote Republican. I'm just saying that she's an oblivious and ignorant girl who held some unsurprising homophobic and heterosexist attitudes that I don't think someone who was bisexual would hold, even if they were closeted/repressed. And that was really the point of all this. To argue against this notion that 90s anime Usagi is bisexual and has a crush on Rei. So can we just move on now?
 

Sabrblade

Luna Crescens
Sep 13, 2009
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Heh, well, that sure was a Sailor Moon misconception you've made a good effort at debunking. ;)
 

BlueMoon

Lumen Cinereum
Sep 6, 2014
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. To argue against this notion that 90s anime Usagi is bisexual and has a crush on Rei. So can we just move on now?
Also that scene was actually taken from the manga. Back when the anime was still kinda sorta adapting the manga and not completely doing its own thing. All instances of her being squicked by same sex relations are pretty anime exclusive which I think is worth noting. Plus Usagi’s girl crush on Rei isn’t really what made her bi or coded bi in the manga. Her interactions with Haruka and Seiya were for that.

And in the anime at least all the girls blushed at Rei are we really suppose to think they’re all bi for Rei or just hey this girl is pretty I wish I looked like her? I’d say the latter And then of course Usagi’s reaction to Rei is way different than any male character. Anime!Usagi goes gaga for hot guys. That’s not what happened with Rei
 
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Usagi’s girl crush on Rei doesn’t actually contradict her being squicked out by the thought of two dudes together. Like at all

We also had a later episode where Usagi was flustered at the thought of Mako being attracted to Haruka needing to remind her Haruka IS a girl.
Considering how she acts? Unlikely.
It’s entirely possible Usagi has enough self awareness to find other girls pretty but still believe relationships are suppose to be a guy and a girl
Or is in denial. Or an unreliable narrator like every time she describes herself as an average girl when the very fact she lives in a Yamanote district shows she isn't.
Also Usagi having a crush on Rei is not canon; it's an inference based on a double entendre that Usagi in all likelihood did not consciously make.
How is openly flirting with Rei a double entendre? This is Japan, not France where flirting is actually rather normal.
 

MariaTenebre

Luna Crescens
Jul 22, 2009
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Anything that happens in Another Story....is canon....for Another Story. But Another Story, though in part inspired by the 90s anime, is not part of the 90s anime, so of course anything that happens in it is irrelevant in a discussion of the 90s anime. Venus killing Beryl is canon in the manga and NogiMyu, but not in anything else. Sailor Luna is canon in the live action series but not anywhere else. Mamoru seeing Usagi as a pet is canon to that S audio drama and not anywhere else. Each iteration has its own canon; something doesn't have to be universal to be canon.

Are the Memorials expressly canon to the 90s anime? That is, do I think in the course of their lives, Usagi, Luna, Chibiusa, and Mamoru sat down at separate times to spend an hour reminiscing about the events of each season? No. But the Memorials aren't any less canon than the final episode of R which is expressly a part of the anime. You keep trying to dismiss the Memorials as not being canon, but then you also talk about the R Movie even though there's no way any of the movies fit into the timeline of the series. You can't have it both ways.

The Memorials are self-aware, meta recaps of each season, again in the vein of the final episode of R. They're light-hearted, but nowhere near the level of absurd, over-the-top self-parody of the S audio drama you keep bringing up. I don't know who wrote the narration for the Memorials, but it was probably someone who wrote for the series. There's no reason to think any of the opinions expressed by Usagi, Luna, Chibiusa, or Mamoru in them are contrary to how those characters felt in the series itself. If the makers of the anime didn't feel that Usagi would be grossed out by Kunzite and Zoisite's relationship, they wouldn't have had her gag while talking about them in the season 1 Memorial. End of.

Does Usagi admire Haruka and Michiru? Yes, but she views them INDIVIDUALLY as being mature and sophisticated; she doesn't view their relationship as such. Do we ever see her say to Mamoru, "I wish we could be more like Haruka and Michiru"? No. If she ever comments on their relationship, it's only to say things like "What an adult mood," referring to the sexual nature of their banter, not their maturity.

Being grossed out by gay male relationships = hating gay men. Of course straight guys are going to be grossed out by gay porn, just as gay guys would be grossed out by straight or lesbian porn. But there's a big difference between feeling uncomfortable watching people have sex and being reduced to gagging at the mere recollection of a same-sex couple.

Yeah Usagi's friendly with the gay fashion designer from SuperS...because she's a superficial, materialistic teen girl who wants him to make a pretty dress for her. Their interactions aren't exactly deep, I don't remember if she even meets his boyfriend, and given stereotypes about men in the fashion industry the designer's being gay was probably something she expected and thus wouldn't even respond to (but that doesn't necessarily mean she respects it). It's been a while since I last watched SuperS, so I'm not gonna comment on Usagi and Fish Eye, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say again that Usagi probably didn't fully grasp Fish Eye's orientation and even if she were sympathetic towards Fish Eye's unrequited love for Mamoru, that doesn't exactly mean she'd agree to go out and help him find another man.

Look, I'm not saying 90s anime Usagi is some virulent homophobe who grew up to join the Westboro Baptist Church and vote Republican. I'm just saying that she's an oblivious and ignorant girl who held some unsurprising homophobic and heterosexist attitudes that I don't think someone who was bisexual would hold, even if they were closeted/repressed. And that was really the point of all this. To argue against this notion that 90s anime Usagi is bisexual and has a crush on Rei. So can we just move on now?
Again I disagree I remember watching that Usagi was entranced by Haruka and Michiru and thought that they were a good couple. She definitely saw them as such and didn't respond in the same way.

As for the gay fashion designer she didn't show any revulsion to Yoshiki Usui and I believe she did see his boyfriend. Also with Fisheye she knew Fisheye was a man and gay but still didn't hold this same kind of revulsion in the memorial so again this makes me think that her opinions in the 90s are not the same in the Memorial. I mean if she was sympathetic to Fisheye's unrequited love for Mamoru then logically she wouldn't be opposed to Fisheye finding another man.

Next I am not saying that Usagi might hold some stereotypical views about gay people but again based on what I have seen I don't think she has any animosity or revulsion towards gay people
 

MariaTenebre

Luna Crescens
Jul 22, 2009
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canonly none of the senshi besides haruka/michiru and the starlights are yuri lol
And it could be argued that only Seiya is yuri. I remember Noriko Okamachi aka the TV actress actually called Yaten gay in Yaten's male form because Yaten seemed to show no interest in women. So since the Starlight's true form are girls Yaten could be a heterosexual woman where as Seiya is obviously a lesbian woman. As for Taiki she wasn't shown really being interested in anyone so we don't know which gender she might be attracted to.
 
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Can you provide specific instances of Usagi flirting with Rei in the 90s anime?
Usagi didn’t flirt with Rei at all. Like what the hell?
The very moment she saw her, Usagi flat-out declared she wouldn't mind being a part-time miko with her. And judging by their faces, Luna, Naru, and the unnamed classmate knew exactly what Usagi meant.
 
Mar 8, 2012
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She says "I wouldn't mind doing that part time." That's not an instance of Usagi flirting with Rei. Not only is it not an instance of flirting, she doesn't even say it to Rei. Furthermore, that's literally the double entendre to which I referred. Naru and others reacted to that line as they did because they interpreted "doing" to mean "having sex with." It's highly unlikely that that's what Usagi intended. Thus it's a double entendre.

You're clearly just being a troll at this point, so this is the last I will engage with you on this topic.
 
Oct 1, 2017
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First movie is the best occasion to see them cutting loose.

And for physical abilities... May I remind everyone that Minako can jump from the road to the first floor of a house with a garden and didn't need a run-up? And I'm not mentioning the incident with Eudial's car-that was apparently above anyone else...
First movie was the best a lot of things. If you're referring to Venus and Jupiter using their continuous attacks to mow down scores of monsters, I fondly remember that.
 
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She says "I wouldn't mind doing that part time." That's not an instance of Usagi flirting with Rei. Not only is it not an instance of flirting, she doesn't even say it to Rei.
She says she wouldn't mind the part time because of Rei. If that's not flirting, I'm a billionaire. And given what I have on my banking account...
Furthermore, that's literally the double entendre to which I referred. Naru and others reacted to that line as they did because they interpreted "doing" to mean "having sex with." It's highly unlikely that that's what Usagi intended. Thus it's a double entendre.
Except they speak Japanese, not English. They have different euphemisms, you know?
You're clearly just being a troll at this point, so this is the last I will engage with you on this topic.
Except I'm not a troll, and you're apparently escaping because you're grasping at straws.
Flirting involves actual interaction. Unless she said this to Rei it can’t even be remotely construed as flirting.
So, you say you wouldn't mind doing something with someone you don't even know exclusively because they're beautiful, and you say that to their face, and it's not flirting because you aren't specifically talking with them? You have a very convenient. definition of flirting.
 

Sabrblade

Luna Crescens
Sep 13, 2009
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Dec 11, 2015
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Sabrblade

Luna Crescens
Sep 13, 2009
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Tampa, FL
There was. Just indirect.
Engagement between two people of close proximity, without a third medium dividing the two needed for their interaction is, by its very nature, direct. "Indirect engagement" in this particular situation is an oxymoron.
 
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