You learn to go through the creative process, chapter structure, conclusion, exposition, climax ect. Thats hard enough for some people. Add the whole aspect of creating characters and settings, and it may be a bit overwhelming for some new writers. So you sorta use the characters and story infront of you as a template and work off of that.
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And BTW, Im not used to carrying on a REAL TIME conversation in a forum, usually I can rethink my thoughts and edit them without any problems arising.
AGH so I edit AGAIN! I wanted to say that the only reason I thought you were angry was because of the way you added "So good for you" at the end of your one scentence, which I now noticed you edited out, so no worries.
AGH so I edit AGAIN! I wanted to say that the only reason I thought you were angry was because of the way you added "So good for you" at the end of your one scentence, which I now noticed you edited out, so no worries.
But if you're already 'going through the creative process' and inventing an entire storyline &c, you might as well just create your own characters and setting. I mean, the settings that a lot of fanfic writers come up with might as well be something completely different, considering how poorly many of them manage to stick to canon.
Personally, I think of it like tracing pictures vs. learning to draw. Sure, you can make some nice-looking art by copying what other people have done, but you get a grasp of anatomy and form and whatnot by actually going out and doing it yourself.
Personally, I think of it like tracing pictures vs. learning to draw. Sure, you can make some nice-looking art by copying what other people have done, but you get a grasp of anatomy and form and whatnot by actually going out and doing it yourself.
Ahh, funny you should mention tracing, my art teacher in college taught us to trace first because it "Trains the hand how to draw". The rest you form AFTER you have learned how to control your hand.
Writing is an overwhelming task for most. I understand what you mean by people who dont stick with canon, but alot of those people may not have felt that they had the capacity to write something like that. So, its easier to write something, post it on the net, get feedback, and then fix whatever needs fixed in your writing style.
Its also easier to get feedback when you are writing on a subject/series that people like and have an interest in. The rabid fanbase of Sailor Moon makes for a wonderful place to test out your skills and get (for the most part) very nice, respectful reviews.
On a side note, this is the best debate ive been in on a forum for a while. Better than alot of the political forums Ive been on...which is actually sorta sad when you think about it.
DAMNIT EDITED AGAIN!
Im gonna toss a question at you now, why DON'T you like Fanfiction? Ive defended my side, now defend yours, whats so wrong about it?
DAMNIT EDITED AGAIN!
Im gonna toss a question at you now, why DON'T you like Fanfiction? Ive defended my side, now defend yours, whats so wrong about it?
Yes. You used it, so I turned around and used it back at you, for a touch of irony. But I decided that said irony was coming out a tad rude, so I took it off.
Generally, you'll find that I just plain don't get mad at people on the internet, because, well, it's the internet and it's not worth the energy. Sarcastic and cynical, yes. Angry, no.
Yes, but do you take your traced pictures and post them on the 'net and claim they're timeless masterpieces?
Yeah, I used to daydream about being in Star Wars...but then I grew up and started writing my own stories. And I don't write up my tabletop gaming sessions, post them on fanfiction.net, and claim it's deathless prose.
From what I've seen of fanfic sites, the reviews are 90% "LOL I loved it u r teh greatst writer evar", 9% "U SUCK & UR STORIZ SUCK", and 1% valid actual feedback.
I'm not sure how that exactly trains one to write, myself. I'd think you'd be better served by joining a writer's group.
P.S. I never said I don't like fanfiction. In fact, I read some, when I can find something worthwhile amongst the teeming masses of absolute dreck. I just don't think it's "necessary" and 95% of the time it sucks.
Generally, you'll find that I just plain don't get mad at people on the internet, because, well, it's the internet and it's not worth the energy. Sarcastic and cynical, yes. Angry, no.
Yes, but do you take your traced pictures and post them on the 'net and claim they're timeless masterpieces?
Yeah, I used to daydream about being in Star Wars...but then I grew up and started writing my own stories. And I don't write up my tabletop gaming sessions, post them on fanfiction.net, and claim it's deathless prose.
From what I've seen of fanfic sites, the reviews are 90% "LOL I loved it u r teh greatst writer evar", 9% "U SUCK & UR STORIZ SUCK", and 1% valid actual feedback.
I'm not sure how that exactly trains one to write, myself. I'd think you'd be better served by joining a writer's group.
P.S. I never said I don't like fanfiction. In fact, I read some, when I can find something worthwhile amongst the teeming masses of absolute dreck. I just don't think it's "necessary" and 95% of the time it sucks.
Ive never met anyone who claimed a fanfiction to be a "Timeless Masterpiece" If I did I would have to slap them. Most people take fanfiction as just that, fanfiction, I read it because it's a good read sometimes, and its about something I like.
I want to ask you, since you are a Star Wars fan, do you find anything wrong with "Shadows of the Empire" Or "Rogue Squadron"?
I want to ask you, since you are a Star Wars fan, do you find anything wrong with "Shadows of the Empire" Or "Rogue Squadron"?
Ah, but obviously, "fanfiction" has different levels of meaning depending on who you ask. I mean, you think it's "necessary" and I think it's a silly pastime.
Let me guess, you're trying to suggest that the Expanded Universe stuff is like fanfiction? I've heard that argument and I have a hard time agreeing with it. It's not so much "fan" in the fiction when you're getting paid to produce it.
Let me guess, you're trying to suggest that the Expanded Universe stuff is like fanfiction? I've heard that argument and I have a hard time agreeing with it. It's not so much "fan" in the fiction when you're getting paid to produce it.
Why ISNT the expanded universe fanfiction? It uses characters and settings that already exsist. I would assume the writers themselves are "fans", you'd have to be in order to write it. I look at it this way, the "Expanded Universe" is just fanfiction that got published. And the only reason it got published is because they writers had the money to get it published.
If Mr. Lucas went to Mr. Stackpole and said "Listen, I will pay you to write a story about Wedge Antilles for me." I would agree that it isnt fanfiction, but that's not the case, Mike Stackpole had to ask to use the license and characters before using them and publishing them into a book.
Edit, Mike StackPOLE wrote Rogue Squadron, not StackHOUSE, I was chastised by my dorm full of star wars fans for that one.
Edit, Mike StackPOLE wrote Rogue Squadron, not StackHOUSE, I was chastised by my dorm full of star wars fans for that one.
I must disagree with your assertion that Expanded Universe is "fanfiction that got published" - if it were fanfiction, it would not have been published.
My definitions:
Fanfiction - stories written by fan-types, usually amateur (though Steven Brust did write that Firefly fanfic), for no other reason than they feel like writing a story.
Expanded Universe, D&D novels, video game tie-ins, &c - stories that were specifically commissioned by people who keep an eye on them, to make sure they're written by people who (in their opinion) can write and stay in canon.
I've read some good things that fit in the former and some very very bad things that fit in the latter, so I tend to judge either one on their merits rather than whether or not they're "official". However, the latter category, in general, stays in canon and avoids the random Mary Sue-ness.
My definitions:
Fanfiction - stories written by fan-types, usually amateur (though Steven Brust did write that Firefly fanfic), for no other reason than they feel like writing a story.
Expanded Universe, D&D novels, video game tie-ins, &c - stories that were specifically commissioned by people who keep an eye on them, to make sure they're written by people who (in their opinion) can write and stay in canon.
I've read some good things that fit in the former and some very very bad things that fit in the latter, so I tend to judge either one on their merits rather than whether or not they're "official". However, the latter category, in general, stays in canon and avoids the random Mary Sue-ness.
Although I'm not a big fan of fanfics, I've found a lot of good ones ^^
Fanfics doesn't need to be completely canon to be good. That's what experience taught me ^^
The tough part is, how to find good fanfics O_O
But you know, the great amount of bad fics isn't a problem exclusive of the SM fandom
About if it's necessary or not...at some point, it will be necessary. In fandoms like the SM one, there will be a moment where the fan-made stuff will be the only thing that will keep the fandom alive. It's natural that people can get tired of watching the same episodes many times
The best way to keep liking a series is, to find something fresh. And if nothing official appears, well, you'll have to start looking for the fan-made stuff
This doesn't only applies to fanfiction; have you noticed the great amount of fan-made SM games that have appeared recently? ^^
I agree in one thing: Mary Sues sucks xD
Fanfics doesn't need to be completely canon to be good. That's what experience taught me ^^
The tough part is, how to find good fanfics O_O
But you know, the great amount of bad fics isn't a problem exclusive of the SM fandom
About if it's necessary or not...at some point, it will be necessary. In fandoms like the SM one, there will be a moment where the fan-made stuff will be the only thing that will keep the fandom alive. It's natural that people can get tired of watching the same episodes many times
The best way to keep liking a series is, to find something fresh. And if nothing official appears, well, you'll have to start looking for the fan-made stuff This doesn't only applies to fanfiction; have you noticed the great amount of fan-made SM games that have appeared recently? ^^
I agree in one thing: Mary Sues sucks xD
Vocal complaints about self-insertion in Sailor Moon fics amuse me, since Sailor Moon itself is an example of blatant self-insertion. Takeuchi makes no secret of the fact that Usagi is based on herself, and a lot of the events of the series, particularly during R, just amount to a Mary Sue-esque power trip. "Tee hee! I'm a princess! And in the future, I'm queen of the world! Tee hee!" Hell, most of Sailor Moon R plays out like a fanfic. When Takeuchi uses cliches and gimmicks, nobody minds, but people criticise fanfic writers as a whole because many of them use similar devices. It's a strange situation indeed when amateur authors, writing for free, are held to higher standards than professionals.
Fanfic isn't "necessary", but it's one of the ways in which a fandom can be kept fresh and vibrant. Of course, picking your way through the crap to find something worthwhile might be time consuming, but nobody's forcing anyone to opt into it.
Also, I'd like to pick up on the drawing/tracing analogy, on the basis that it's a particularly crappy analogy. To liken fanfiction to tracing implies that it requires no original thought or creativity whatsoever. Perhaps you consider fanfiction to be inferior to original fiction, and perhaps you're right to do so, but you have to concede that it requires some original input. And I would argue, from my own experience, that writing fanfiction is a way of sharpening up writing skills. I wrote an extremely long, multi-part fanfic (based on a certain mid-90s anime that I somehow keep mentioning) over the period of a year and a half. By the time I got to the end, I was looking back at the early chapters and thinking about how differently I'd write them now, given the benefit of my experience. Nowadays, I've moved onto original works, but what I learned from my fanfic career was decisive in motivating me to continue writing. Fanfic is great for people who want to try their hand at creative writing, because there's already an audience for your material, and you can get very rapid feedback (admittedly this seems to work better for smaller series where the constructive-feedback-to-noise ratio is a little more favourable). If, on the other hand, you embark upon writing a novel from scratch, it's a lot of work with no encouragement that may well never see the light of day. Of course fanfic isn't the only way of building up your confidence - I'm not suggesting that Shakespeare wrote Chaucer fanfics - but if you enjoy a series, then it's a fun way, and a way of giving something back to the fan community as well.
Fanfic isn't "necessary", but it's one of the ways in which a fandom can be kept fresh and vibrant. Of course, picking your way through the crap to find something worthwhile might be time consuming, but nobody's forcing anyone to opt into it.
Also, I'd like to pick up on the drawing/tracing analogy, on the basis that it's a particularly crappy analogy. To liken fanfiction to tracing implies that it requires no original thought or creativity whatsoever. Perhaps you consider fanfiction to be inferior to original fiction, and perhaps you're right to do so, but you have to concede that it requires some original input. And I would argue, from my own experience, that writing fanfiction is a way of sharpening up writing skills. I wrote an extremely long, multi-part fanfic (based on a certain mid-90s anime that I somehow keep mentioning) over the period of a year and a half. By the time I got to the end, I was looking back at the early chapters and thinking about how differently I'd write them now, given the benefit of my experience. Nowadays, I've moved onto original works, but what I learned from my fanfic career was decisive in motivating me to continue writing. Fanfic is great for people who want to try their hand at creative writing, because there's already an audience for your material, and you can get very rapid feedback (admittedly this seems to work better for smaller series where the constructive-feedback-to-noise ratio is a little more favourable). If, on the other hand, you embark upon writing a novel from scratch, it's a lot of work with no encouragement that may well never see the light of day. Of course fanfic isn't the only way of building up your confidence - I'm not suggesting that Shakespeare wrote Chaucer fanfics - but if you enjoy a series, then it's a fun way, and a way of giving something back to the fan community as well.
I think one place where we differ, dooky, is that you think there's a need to keep a fandom "fresh and vibrant" whereas IMHO, if the fandom for a series is so old and stale that it needs fanfic to keep it going, maybe it's time to find something else to watch.
Also, sure, Takeuchi based Usagi on herself. And Mercedes Lackey's gazillion novels all read like really bad Mary Sue fanfic, if you ask me. The big difference is that someone was willing to finance it - and if some fanfic writer out there were to come up with an original storyline and successfully pitch it, then hey, more power to them. The word original is where I keep sticking, though.
I don't have a problem with fanfics as a starting point; though I think there are more productive ways to start, it's obviously a good place for some people. However, I don't think it by itself is a good way to train future writers.
Also, sure, Takeuchi based Usagi on herself. And Mercedes Lackey's gazillion novels all read like really bad Mary Sue fanfic, if you ask me. The big difference is that someone was willing to finance it - and if some fanfic writer out there were to come up with an original storyline and successfully pitch it, then hey, more power to them. The word original is where I keep sticking, though.
I don't have a problem with fanfics as a starting point; though I think there are more productive ways to start, it's obviously a good place for some people. However, I don't think it by itself is a good way to train future writers.
