The Black Moon were right on one thing

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Maraviollantes

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Embelyon
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#4
Because there is no desire to continue develop the society and everything, everyone would just lay down and enjoy life.
Some could argue that letting all people to just enjoy life without daily fear of disease and death is the final goal of "developing the society". What, according to you, the final goal of "developing the society" should be instead?
 

Maraviollantes

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#7
I dunno, but I just don't think humans should give up the spirit to further evolve.
If you insist that people forever should remain stuck at the stage of mortal beings and never evolve into eternal beings, perhaps it's you who "give up on the spirit of evolution". "I dunno what for they should develop" doesn't sound like a convincing argument either. :clap:
 

Slowpokeking

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#8
If you insist that people forever should remain stuck at the stage of mortal beings and never evolve into eternal beings, perhaps it's you who "give up on the spirit of evolution". "I dunno what for they should develop" doesn't sound like a convincing argument either. :clap:
Yes, that's what makes human being evolve while it's cruel. Eternal life, but without the soul to fit it, I don't think it's gonna work.

I cannot give an answer about human's ultimate form because I think there shouldn't be one.
 

Maraviollantes

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#9
I cannot give an answer about human's ultimate form because I think there shouldn't be one.
A: According to my calculations, 2 + 2 = 4
B: You are wrong!
A: Why? And what the correct answer is?
B: I don't know why, but... but... you are wrong! I don't know the correct answer either, but... but... you are still wrong!

That's essentially what your whole argument is. It's kind pointless to argue against this kind of "logic", I think.
 

Slowpokeking

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#10
A: According to my calculations, 2 + 2 = 4
B: You are wrong!
A: Why? And what the correct answer is?
B: I don't know why, but... but... you are wrong! I don't know the correct answer either, but... but... you are still wrong!

That's essentially what your whole argument is. It's kind pointless to argue against this kind of "logic", I think.
No, the thing is I don't think there should be any final goal or ultimate form for human society. It should keep evolve as humans' desire would never get full and should not get full.
 
Aug 10, 2008
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www.cgtrader.com
#11
Why would you think that people will stop evolving when they have eternal life? Do you think people will just lose all forms of desires if they live forever? Longevity is just one of many problems that humanity wants to solve, not to mention more problems will arise once humans achieved immortality such as solving over population, which might involve spacetravel, more efficient use of resources etc. As long as there are still problems to solve, humanity will continue to evolve.
 

MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#12
Because there is no desire to continue develop the society and everything, everyone would just lay down and enjoy life.
That is not true if anything long and Eternal lives can allow people to live and develop and evolve more and this contribute to society. Also the soul is Eternal so giving the body Eternal life would match the soul. The notion that Eternal life stops the soul or the society's ability to evolve is nonsense. Quite the opposite it would aid it more then anything else.
 
Jul 29, 2012
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#13
It takes a long time to become young. Our goals can only be reached through a vehicle of a plan, in which we must fervently believe, and upon which we must vigorously act. —Pablo Picasso
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#14
I actually agree with the OP.

It's easy to think of living 1,000 years or living forever as some sort of utopia, and it does have its perks. But part of the drive to do anything is because one knows one will not be around forever. If people have infinite tomorrows, most people are not going to be driven to do better, because it's like a video game that is rigged to always let you win like "Big Rigs," There is nothing wrong with having the basic needs of everyone cared for, but if everyone is guaranteed to live, few are going to do anything with that life. There will always be outliers, but the majority of people will stagnate.

I can speak from personal experience. I know I do have slightly more time on my hands during this later phase of lockdown than I did earlier in the lockdown. Despite this, I have not made any progress in any of the projects I set out for myself, let alone complete the ones I laid aside. This is in large part because I know I don't have a set time limit. Limits help define us and give us purpose.

Think about how in the span of a few generations, the lives we lead are completely different than from those of 100 years ago. Progress marches on. Some people can adapt. Others are stuck in their ways. How many more people would be stuck in their ways and simply refuse to adapt if they know they can stay the way they are forever?

In a way, the aim of the Black Moon Clan does make sense -- they were able to invent time travel because they were focused on progress rather than relying on Silver Crystal magic for everything. Yes, they are a death cult and extremists. They're villains, no question, but their root cause, without Wiseman is arguably noble, at least in the manga. It's their methods which make them monsters.
 
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MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#15
I actually agree with the OP.

It's easy to think of living 1,000 years or living forever as some sort of utopia, and it does have its perks. But part of the drive to do anything is because one knows one will not be around forever. If people have infinite tomorrows, most people are not going to be driven to do better, because it's like a video game that is rigged to always let you win like "Big Rigs," There is nothing wrong with having the basic needs of everyone cared for, but if everyone is guaranteed to live, few are is going to do anything with that life. There will always be outliers, but the majority of people will stagnate.

I can speak from personal experience. I know I do have slightly more time on my hands during this later phase of lockdown than I did earlier in the lockdown. Despite this, I have not made any progress in any of the projects I set out for myself, let alone complete the ones I laid aside. This is in large part because I know I don't have a set time limit. Limits help define us and give us purpose.

Think about how in the span of a few generations, the lives we lead are completely different than from those of 100 years ago. Progress marches on. Some people can adapt. Others are stuck in their ways. How many more people would be stuck in their ways and simply refuse to adapt if they know they can stay the way they are forever?

In a way, the aim of the Black Moon Clan does make sense -- they were able to invent time travel because they were focused on progress rather than relying on Silver Crystal magic for everything. Yes, they are a death cult and extremists. They're villains, no question, but their root cause, without Wiseman is arguably noble, at least in the manga. It's their methods which make them monsters.
I am sorry but this is utter nonsense. If what you are saying is right and people accomplish more with death looming over us and shorter lifespans then why when we were new to this world and died young we were practically in a savage state but when we advanced and increased our lifespans our accomplishments in the world increased. Death dosen't make you work more it ends your work and if we had ageless lifespans then we would be able to accomplish more and do more. The Black Moon Clan's goals were not honorable nor good. At best they are simply anarchists more in line with say what you would see with say certain totalitarian governments in their desire to destroy old and rebuild new and that never goes well. An increased human lifespan would allow us to accomplish more not less. I mean how much are we humans able to accomplish with our long lives then say some insects that only live a week at best or our forebears who were lucky to make it to 40 alive. Even in the Bible Yahweh feared that after humans ate from the Tree of Knowledge that if we ate from the Tree of Life we would not only become wise like him but eternal like him and the Host of Heaven and thus he feared us. The notion that death motivates us is ignorant. Death ends us not motivates us and due to death we have lost numerous brilliant minds that could aid us. There is a reason why Gods have such power because they are eternal and ever lasting and we are not and it is this longevity that grants them this wisdom in numerous religions and mythologies. Honestly the fact that so many modern people romanticize death and struggle shows that they themselves hadn't had much of it. My brother who is a Doctor said he has dealt with many patients on their death bed and none of them are ready and if after all shorter life spans make us accomplish more then by your standards shouldn't we try to make sure we have as short a life span as possible so we can "accomplish more." Again so many people don't know what death is.
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#16
There's a happy medium in terms of a lifespan.

Too short and progress is impossible, because one is only focused on living and reproducing. Too long and progress is impossible, because one is never focusing on passing down what one has learned. I am not suggesting that our sole purpose is to "be fruitful and multiply," but there is both a limit to the quality years people have and the effectiveness of those years. Just as more education does not necessarily make one smarter, more seat time in the game of life doesn't make you a better player. There are people half my age who are better at things I've spent my entire life doing, and it's not just because they're younger, but because they are more gifted.

Like it or not, we can see the effects of an increased human lifespan in the world. The good news is that the quality of life has increased at least on the front end, but the bad news is the populations of so-called "advanced" societies are in decline, only accelerated by recent events. Even if you believe that those coming in can substitute for those who are departing, the fact remains plenty of people will die without accomplishing anything, despite having opportunities unheard of to those who came before. Someone who has struggled can appreciate progress more than someone who hasn't struggled, because the person who struggled know what it is like to gain certain freedom. Place me in the past a few centuries in ANY part of the world and I'd probably die in three seconds.

I'm not suggesting the threat of death -- let alone death itself -- is a good thing, but it is a part of life, much as birth is a part of life.

For all the brilliant minds that are lost, there are countless ordinary minds that are lost. Letting them linger does not sounds so bad, except ordinary minds of, say, 1,000 years ago would have different ideas on what is acceptable today. What if there were millions of closed-minded people who simply would not change their minds yet still exercised their say on your life, eternally, by the sheer force of numbers? That would be a punishment that would last forever.
 

MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#17
There's a happy medium in terms of a lifespan.

Too short and progress is impossible, because one is only focused on living and reproducing. Too long and progress is impossible, because one is never focusing on passing down what one has learned. I am not suggesting that our sole purpose is to "be fruitful and multiply," but there is both a limit to the quality years people have and the effectiveness of those years. Just as more education does not necessarily make one smarter, more seat time in the game of life doesn't make you a better player. There are people half my age who are better at things I've spent my entire life doing, and it's not just because they're younger, but because they are more gifted.

Like it or not, we can see the effects of an increased human lifespan in the world. The good news is that the quality of life has increased at least on the front end, but the bad news is the populations of so-called "advanced" societies are in decline, only accelerated by recent events. Even if you believe that those coming in can substitute for those who are departing, the fact remains plenty of people will die without accomplishing anything, despite having opportunities unheard of to those who came before. Someone who has struggled can appreciate progress more than someone who hasn't struggled, because the person who struggled know what it is like to gain certain freedom. Place me in the past a few centuries in ANY part of the world and I'd probably die in three seconds.

I'm not suggesting the threat of death -- let alone death itself -- is a good thing, but it is a part of life, much as birth is a part of life.

For all the brilliant minds that are lost, there are countless ordinary minds that are lost. Letting them linger does not sounds so bad, except ordinary minds of, say, 1,000 years ago would have different ideas on what is acceptable today. What if there were millions of closed-minded people who simply would not change their minds yet still exercised their say on your life, eternally, by the sheer force of numbers? That would be a punishment that would last forever.
No there is no happy medium on a lifespan. The happy point would be to eradicate death otherwise there is no happiness. I am sure when you are on your deathbed you will be begging your doctor or whatever Gods you do or don't believe in for more time. As my brother has said who has dealt with death more then you as he is a Doctor he has dealt with many people on their deathbed and none were ready. There is no limit to the game of life if one has intelligence and the power to do and get better. If you have the ability to learn you can advance yourself. Some people have more ability then others however an end to one's life dosen't make us better nor make us thrive it ends it. Again plenty of minds better then you or I have lived and contributed to us greatly and had they lived longer could have aided us more in their increased knowledge. While yes certain people live without accomplishing anything. That is true but some live and do accomplish numerous things and due to death taking them away from us we lose what more they could contribute to the world and what knowledge they could impart to us. Also the reasons why these advanced civilizations are in decline is more to do to ideas such as your own. The notion that objective knowledge can't truly be known, that we must all be our brother's keeper that the Fruit of Knowledge is evil and over all entitled pathetic and even wretched parents raising entitled wretched children and ruining them with their abuse as their parents did to them before. Of course this drama has been inherited but in the past atleast it was kept quietly under the rug and people lived with the silence of their traumas. Now they can deal with those traumas however our advanced civilizations are far better off, have far better qualities of life and have advanced more then any of the civilizations that came before them due to things like the Enlightenment. We are not contributing less to the world nor are we less abused, traumatized or have less issues. Quite the contrary we have more freedoms and human rights now then in any other time of the world. While it is true that someone who has struggled more can appreciate progress more. Still struggle for the sake of struggle does no one good and not everyone who come from struggling environments do well. Yes some can become Diamonds in the Rough others will crack from the pressure and become miserable people themselves. The point is that if people were given good lives, especially endless lives yet also proper guidance, educcation and rearing then yes we would do better and if we have ageless lives that would give us more power and time to advance themselves. Yes death is a part of life for now. However it dosen't need always be. Diseases have been a natural part of life but they need not always be. Also yes ordinary minds and brilliant minds are lost but if both are ruled by brilliant minds and good guidance then both will thrive and if both were ageless then you would have as much power as they would and you would have the ability to fight against it along with likeminded people as guess what people are not a monolith where as if they just kill you well you can't fight can you. As long as you live and have power there is some form of hope. However since you yourself think that long lifespans are bad and that our lifespans are too long how would you shorten our lives and since you think that "ordinary" people are a drain on our society would you have them die early. Honestly sounds like eugenics to me. Struggle for the sake of struggle benefits no one. You are a dwarf standing on the shoulders of giants thinking you can fly. We all are. Your ancestors and mine would have killed to have the long lives we have and the privileges we have and to fight for them they would love to have eternal lives. However you have lived so well that you can romanticize struggle, suffering, scratching and surviving. It made me think of Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ayn Rand talking to Americans in both of their times who romanticize authoritarian regimes, religions, governments, countries and ideologies and told them "You can spit on freedom because you don't know what it is like not to have it. We don't have that luxury." Likewise your ancestors would tell you "You can romanticize and love suffering, death and struggle. We don't have that luxury." Honestly as my brother has said given that he is in the business of life and death that he wished that all of these people who were against things like immortality and who saw death, struggle, aging and dying as a good thing to work for a second in a hospital with people dying all of whom are begging the Doctors and the Gods, Saints, Angels, Spirits, Djinn/Daemons and even in many cases Demons and Devils just for more time along with their loved ones wishing that their dying beloved one will not be gone form them and then see what you all will say because again anyone who says that death is a good thing and struggling and suffering is a good thing clearly has never saw Death in the face and the open abyss of uncertainity and loss.
 
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Jun 30, 2010
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#18
I am sure when you are on your deathbed you will be begging your doctor or whatever Gods you do or don't believe in for more time. As my brother has said who has dealt with death more then you as he is a Doctor he has dealt with many people on their deathbed and none were ready.
I'm just going to say this. While there are many people who beg for more time - and I anticipate being one of them - there are also many people who at the end of their lives either have made peace with the idea of dying or do sincerely want to die. I've watched relatives die, and while they didn't want to go, they weren't exactly begging for more time, either.

You don't know until you get there what it will be.
 
Apr 18, 2016
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#19
I think it might be hell on earth if I could never die. Many times I’ve felt the desire to die. It’s not a good feeling, and I’m not encouraging anybody to go through with it. However, some find comfort in the fact that one day, in the far future, they will die. Maybe, if everyone has eternal life, then many of the stressors and issues that exacerbate feelings of wanting to die will all but go away. If not, though, if all my future held was me living forever, with no option to prevent this, I think I would despair quite a bit.
It seems like the people of Earth after NQS and King Endymion came to power simply had extended life, not eternal life, though. The issues I present wouldn’t be issues, then.
 
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