The New Dub of The Movies

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BlueMoon

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!

I forgot about that!

I'll agree that the movies are minimally edited. I was never saying that they were heavily edited (I was talking about the series dub in that context, since you had brought up things like Grandpa Hino), just that they were more so than the Viz dub.
Maybe that’s where the confusion comes from. And I apologize

My main focus is the movies. That Viz is advertising their release of the movies as uncut for the first time. Which is of course a load. Even granting them they mean the dub there was very little actually censored in the Optimum dub with regards to the movies (as opposed to their dubs of the series where even the visually uncut/uncensored S had censored dialog that drastically altered relationships).

You are getting a much more faithful (and worse acted in my opinion but that’s neither here nor there) dub with Viz but Viz isn’t providing any more of a less censored or less edited dub. Viz downplayed the homophobia. Pioneer/Optimum mostly just side stepped it.

But unlike the Haruka/Michiru thing in S the Fiore/Mamoru thing was sub text at best. Eliminating Amy’s one comment isn’t really any more drastic of an alteration than Minako stressing she has no problem with the gay couple at her school in the Viz dub.


As for the series not trying to say Viz is just as censored as the Optimum dub but if they’re going to boast being uncut on the basis the S and SuperS uncut Optimum/Pioneer/Cloverway dubs had censored dialog then the censorship they themselves place needs to be accounted for.


Is downplaying Grandpa Hino being a depraved bisexual worse than making Haruka and Michiru Kissing Cousins? Not by a long shot but it’s still censorship present in an uncut dub
 
In other words, you seem to be arguing that the Pioneer dub did not qualify as truly "uncut" because it had censored dialog. (If that wasn't what you were trying to imply, why even make that comment?) Yet here you are now, agreeing that even the Viz dub contains some censored dialog. Therefore, by your own standard, Viz's dub still does not qualify as truly "uncut."
That was the argument I was originally trying to make. But I changed my mind because of the points made in the discussion. I now agree that Viz's dub isn't entirely uncut. Apologies if that development wasn't obvious from my posts. I was originally planning not to reply anymore, but then I felt a point I made had been misconstrued and I wanted to clarify.

Maybe that’s where the confusion comes from. And I apologize

But unlike the Haruka/Michiru thing in S the Fiore/Mamoru thing was sub text at best. Eliminating Amy’s one comment isn’t really any more drastic of an alteration than Minako stressing she has no problem with the gay couple at her school in the Viz dub.
Thank you. I apologize too. I'm the one more at fault here - this whole mess could have been avoided had I quoted your post so you knew exactly what my reply was in response to. ^_^'

Oh, it's definitely subtext. Just subtext I'm happy Viz restored rather than ignored.

And I see where you're coming from now.
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
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Having just rewatched the original Promise of the Rose dub earlier tonight, I'd say that all the subtext is still there. Fiore does call Serena the "thief of hearts" at one point after all.
 

BlueMoon

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Having just rewatched the original Promise of the Rose dub earlier tonight, I'd say that all the subtext is still there. Fiore does call Serena the "thief of hearts" at one point after all.
Aw man I procrastinated my dub rewatch and I’m only now 11 episodes in to the show and I look forward to revisiting the movies.

This is my first attempt at rewatching the whole shebang (all 159 dubbed episodes and 3 movies) I’m excited
 

MementoNepenthe

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I'm midway through my own dub rewatch atm, though, given the holiday season I'll be watching Hearts in Ice tomorrow before rewatching S. I still think the original dub of the R movie is better than the Japanese version, and it's definitely the best part of the anime altogether imo.
 
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These are definitely NOT "uncut" for the first time. Every part of the Sailor Moon franchise has been released "uncut" on DVD before (not counting next episode preview and the like), except for Stars, which of course hadn't been released at all. Even if you're only counting dubbed material, the S/SuperS seasons and the movies had visually uncut dubs before. Yeah, the dialogue was changed a lot, but that doesn't stop FUNimation labeling their DBZ dub "uncut," despite its own very liberal script adaptation.
 

BlueMoon

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I'll be watching Hearts in Ice tomorrow before rewatching S.
I was actually thinking about that. I was planning on trying to watch the movies either after their respective season or when they would theoretically take place (albeit it Rini knowing Serena is her mom in Promise of Rose muddles the continuity up a bit) but decided that I’ll just watch all 3 between R and S since that makes the most sense from a production stand point. Since the only thing that changed between the final 17 episodes of R and the movies is Katie resuming the role of Raye.
 

MementoNepenthe

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@The Blizzard Prince @Seen2

Not to belabor the issue, but in the interest of making sure all the facts are on the table, allow me to present all the quotes relevant to this discussion. Quotes from the sub are presented in regular face, quotes from the dub are in bold. I've omitted stray lines that were irrelevant to the matter at hand.

---------------------------------
Little Fiore: Thanks. Someday, I'll bring lots of flowers for you, I promise. Don't cry so much. Next time I come back, I'll bring lots of flowers for you. So—
Usagi: Don't forget me.

Little Darien: Here Fiore. This rose is for you.
Little Fiore: Wow, thank you. Nobody's ever given me a gift before. I'll never forget this, Darien. And someday, I'll be back with flowers for you.
Little Darien: Why do you have to go away?
Little Fiore: Don't be sad. Someday, I'll be back with flowers for you. I promise.
Serena: Forget-me-not.

----------------------------------

Fiore: Yo. Long time no see, Mamoru. It's me.
Usagi: Do you know him?
Mamoru: No.
Fiore: I'm sorry I made you wait so long. I didn't intend to keep you waiting so long for me. But at last I've found some flowers that you will enjoy.
Mamoru: What?
Fiore: Come on. Don't tell me you've forgotten our promise?
Mamoru: Promise?
Fiore: Yeah, the one between you and me. The flowers I promised.
Usagi: They're holding hands...
Usagi: Um. You can't. Mamo is my boyfriend.
Fiore: Out of the way.

Fiore: Hey. It's been a long time, Darien. Too long.
Serena: Are you friends?
Darien: No.
Fiore: I never forgot. It took me a long time, but I kept my promise. I've finally found a flower worthy of our friendship.
Darien: Friendship?
Fiore: That's right. I vowed to return with flowers for you, too.
Darien: Flowers?
Fiore: It's still the most beautiful gift anyone has ever given me, Darien.
Darien: I'm sorry. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Fiore: You must remember. I promised you.
Serena: Okay. You're done. I need my pumpkin to myself now. Ta-ta, strangeoid.
Fiore: Nice try.

----------------------

Fiore: Mamoru, I'll make sure I fulfill the promise we made.
[...]
Mamoru: Fiore. It can't be!
Usagi: Mamo?

Fiore: No one's going to prevent me from keeping my promise. No one.
[...]
Darien: That's Fiore. Has to be.
Serena: What's going on?

----------------------

Usagi: Maybe I'm just overthinking this. But it didn't look like an ordinary relationship either. No, Mamo wouldn't ever do that!
Rei: Mamoru looked rather serious too.
Makoto: Oh yeah, he suddenly said he was going to go home too.
Minako: I wonder if the guy we met at the botanical garden was an acquaintance of Mamoru's.
Makoto: You haven't heard anything, Usagi?
Usagi: No. Come to think of it, I actually don't know much about Mamo's life before he met me.
Ami: Mamoru seems to be popular with men.
Rei: Such a comment from you, Ami?
Minako: Ami, you're a perv!
Makoto: Ah, they had that kind of relationship.
Ami: N-No, you're wrong! I didn't intend to imply that!
Rei: Then what were your intentions?
Ami: W-Well, actually, I—
Minako: You know, there's a couple in that kind of a relationship at my school too.

Serena: Ooh, I wonder what it is! Oooh! There seemed to be some kind of connection between those two. Oh! Darien's not allowed to have secrets.
Raye: Why? Because you can't keep one to save your life?
Lita: I think that guy was just some kind of whacko.
Mina: Maybe Serena's right. There did seem to be some kind of connection between them.
Lita: Serena, did Darien mention this guy?
Serena: No... We don't talk about his past very much, I guess. He says it was too lonely.
Amy: That's strange, seeing how everybody's in love with him.
Raye: Everybody including you?
Amy: Of course not! I-
Raye: Oh sure!
Amy: -just meant he's popular.
Raye: I've seen the way you look at him.
[Continued banter under Luna and Artemis's dialog is indecipherable]
Lita: We've all got tons of secret crushes on the guy. What's there not to like?
Amy: You know that you must have really got a big crush on him[?]
[Rest of banter is indecipherable. I think Lita mentions her second crush was on a guy named Max?]

------------------------------

Fiore: For deceiving Mamoru, you get a special treatment!

Fiore: We've done the Sailor Scout hash. Now let's try the Moon Kabobs!

------------------------------

Fiore: You must be- Mamoru! So you didn't forget about our friendship after all!
Mamoru: Fiore, why are you doing this?
Fiore: Why? Why are you seeking solace from your loneliness with a dull girl like this? She will deceive you, and you'll end up all alone again!
Mamoru: Please, Fiore. If our friendship is true, then please believe in her and the people on this planet!
Fiore: I understand.
[...]
Fiore: This girl is deceiving you!
[...]
Mamoru: Stop! Stop!
Fiore: I can't! That girl is fooling you!
Mamoru: You're wrong! I am not being fooled!
Fiore: I will open your eyes for you!
[...]
Fiore: Mamoru, you think so highly of this girl?

Fiore: A red rose? Darien! You remembered the promise we made all those years ago!
Darien: Fiore, your heart was pure then, but no longer.
Fiore: And you swore me eternal friendship, but now you chose this dingbat over me, Darien?
Darien: She is my friend, as you are. If you believe in our friendship, Fiore, you must trust in Sailor Moon and the people here.
Fiore: If you say so.
[...]
Fiore: This girl has you bamboozled, Darien!
[...]
Darien: The reason Earth is so appealing to you is because the Sailor Scouts drive out the negative forces.
Fiore: They are the negative forces!
[...]
Fiore: I can't lose him. He's the only friend I've ever had.

--------------------------------

Little Mamoru: Dad. Mom. Am I all alone now?
Little Fiore: You'll be okay. I'm here for you.

Little Darien: Mother. Father. Why did you have to leave me? Why'd you leave me all alone?
Little Fiore: You're not alone. I'm here with you.

----------------------------

Fiore: You'll have to stay in there for a while. Your wounds will heal in time.
Mamoru: Fiore, I remember everything now. You really existed. You weren't just an illusion I saw when I was a child.
Fiore: An illusion. To me, that time we spent together seems like yesterday. I had wandered throughout space all alone not knowing when or where I was born. Just when I was at the end of my strength, I found your planet. I arrived on Earth. I knew the moment I looked into your eyes that you were the one who had called me. And we were no longer alone. But I couldn't stay with you because my body couldn't live for a long time on Earth.

Fiore: You need to rest now, Darien. We can talk later.
Darien: You're real. You came back. I thought you were someone I'd just made up to ease the pain of my orphanage loneliness.
Fiore: I'm real. Our friendship is what's sustained me all this time. Before I came to the orphanage, I was drifting all alone in space. I had no idea where or when I was born. Finally, after a long and lonely journey, I was carried to Earth. Soon as I saw your eyes, I knew it was your good energy that had drawn me. We became friends immediately. Two lonely boys. But I wasn't able to stay on Earth, for my life there would have been too short. Leaving was the hardest thing I've ever done.

(continued)
 
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MementoNepenthe

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Little Fiore: Thank you.
Fiore: I never knew I would be so happy when I received flowers.
Little Fiore: Next time I come back, I'll bring lots of flowers for you.
Fiore: Ever since then, I wandered through many planets until I finally found it. A flower worthy of giving to you. When I first held the Xenian Flower, I realized something for the first time. All those Earthlings that left poor Mamoru all alone. All of them must die.
[...]
Fiore: Mamoru, you won't make me live alone?
Mamoru: Fiore.
Fiore: I am the only one that will give you flowers.

Little Fiore: Thank you, Darien.
Fiore: That simple flower, a red rose, was the first and only gift I ever received.
Little Fiore: I'll search the universe for the perfect flower to bring back. (Happy sigh/moan)
Fiore: I looked everywhere, and eventually I found a star where the perfect blossom grew. Finally I could see you again. When I picked the Kisenian Blossom, a thought struck me. On Earth, people had left my friend, Darien, all alone. I vowed then and there that they must pay. You deserved so much better.
[...]
Darien: I'm happy there [on Earth], Fiore. That's where I belong.
Fiore: No longer. You belong here, with me, your true friend, Darien.
Darien: Fiore.
Fiore: From now on, only I will give you flowers.

------------------------------

Fiore: There's no need to worry. I would never use Mamoru as part of a trap.

Fiore: You've been trained well, Scouts. But rest assured; I'd never use my friend as bait.

--------------------------------

Xenian Flower: Fiore, don't be fooled. Sailor Moon is a sly girl who wants to steal Mamoru away from you.
Fiore: That's right. I won't be fooled.
Xenian Flower: Fiore. I will lend you my power. If you defeat Sailor Moon, Mamoru will remember the friendship you two once shared.


Kisenian Blossom: Fiore, she's tricked you. All she wants is for the Scouts to help her take Darien away from you again.
Fiore: My friend. She can't have him.
Kisenian Blossom: If you help me fight her, I'll make sure Darien remembers your special bond. But your friendship with him will never come back to life until Sailor Moon and the Sailor Scouts are gone. Together, we are invincible!

---------------------------

Mamoru: (After breaking out of his crystal healing tank) Usa!

Darien: You are not my friend!

---------------------------

Fiore: I won't let the liars who left me and Mamoru all alone live. Loneliness— You don't understand the loneliness that Mamoru and I felt. You don't know what loneliness is!
[...]
You've never felt that you were unfortunate to have ever been born. How could you understand?
[...]
Do you know how lonely it is to not have friends or comrades?
[...]
You'll never know how lonely it feels to be misunderstood!


Fiore: So give up your claim on Darien's heart, and I'll tell them [my minions] to stop [draining your energy]. You don't know what it's like to be lonely without true friends, Sailor Moon, or you wouldn't try to take Darien away.
[...]
You don't know what it's like to have everyone shun you because you're different, Sailor Moon.
[...]
Maybe you'll understand what Darien means to me if you get a glimpse of true loneliness.
[...]
Do you know how it feels never to have anyone to talk to? To share things with?

-------------------------------------

Fiore: Die.

Fiore: Adios, thief of hearts.

---------------------------------

Minako: Stop! Please, don't take her away from us.
Makoto: She's someone who means a lot to us.
Ami: Usagi is a girl that gave all of us something incomparable.
Fiore: What are you talking about? This girl is a liar. She doesn't give anything.
Rei: You don't get it at all. If we had not met Usagi, we would all be alone right now!
Fiore: No! You are all being deceived. All of you, and Mamoru are fooled by her! Sailor Moon, I can't let you live after all. Die!

Mina: Don't! DON'T! Sailor Moon's done more for me than anyone.
Lita: She's the best friend you could wish for, just ask Darien. And she can be your friend, too.
Amy: You could join us, Fiore. Put your powers towards building more friendships.
Fiore: You think I'm a dope? You're just trying to trick me into letting her go so she can take Darien away.
Raye: You're the one who's been tricked. Kisenian Blossom wants to rule alone. She'll destroy you, Fiore. Once she gets what she wants, you're history and Darien will be, too.
Fiore: No! Kisenian is no traitor! She'll find a place for Darien in her plans. And Sailor Moon is the big obstacle to making that happen. Time to die!

-------------------------------

Fiore: This flower. Mamoru. It can't be.
Xenian Flower: What's wrong, Fiore? Pull yourself together! I'm with you!
Fiore: I can't— because Mamoru— threw a flower at me.
Mamoru: Fiore.
Fiore: Even Mamoru is leaving me all alone.

Fiore: A red rose? You choose them? Darien...
Kisenian Blossom: Why don't you go after him? He's weak. Get rid of him!
Fiore: We're like brothers. We've shared the same pain. All I hoped for was to be friends once more.
Darien: I'm sorry, Fiore.
Fiore: Goodbye, Darien. I hope you're happy with your choice.

-------------------------

Fiore: won't give Mamoru away to anyone.

[In the dub, Fiore just talks about how the asteroid is going to crash to Earth; he doesn't mention Darien specifically during his spiel.]

---------------------------

Usagi: What are you so afraid of? It's all right. You're not alone.
Fiore: You're lying! You're just trying to fool me by pretending to be nice!

Serena: I can make you better. Your heart is still pure. We can be friends, if you trust me.
Fiore: You're lying!
Serena: Maybe you'll believe me if I show you how Darien became my friend.

------------------------

Little Mamoru: Who are you?
Little Usagi: Don't cry.
Little Mamoru: Soon, a close friend is going away. But I can't do anything for him.
Little Usagi: You know. Starting today, I'm going to be a big sister. My mom just had a baby. And I brought this as a gift. Here. Congratulations.
Little Mamoru: Thanks.
Fiore: Sailor Moon gave Mamoru a flower. Then that flower was from Sailor Moon? Who are you? ... A flower!

Little Darien: Who are you?
Little Serena: My name is Serena. Why are you crying?
Little Darien: Because my friend's leaving, and I'll never see him again. And... He's the only friend I've got.
Little Serena: No he isn't. 'Cause from now on, I'll be your friend, too. My mummy just had a baby boy today, and I got these roses for her. Here. It's a present.
Little Darien: Thanks, Serena.
Fiore: Darien's rose came from you. It was a token of your friendship? The crystal's changing... A flower!

------------------------------

Fiore: Mamoru.
Mamoru: Fiore.
Fiore: Thank you. You and Sailor Moon have saved me again. Mamoru, now I will fulfill that promise. This is a flower of life. It contains the sum of all my energy. Give the nectar of this flower to Sailor Moon.

Fiore: I made you a promise, Darien.
Darien: Fiore.
Fiore: You saved me. You and Sailor Moon delivered me from Kisenian's destructive grasp. Thanks to you, I'm still able to give you this: my life. This is the Friendship Flower. It holds my life energy. Give its nectar to Sailor Moon.

(end)

--------------------------

As you can see, there's still plenty of subtext / there are plenty of grounds for interpreting Fiore's feelings for Darien as romantic in the dub. I wouldn't say the dub downplayed that potential reading at all compared to the Japanese original. In fact, not only did the dub remove the original's arguable homophobia, it also arguably added dialog that bolsters readings of Fiore's affection for Darien as romantic in nature. There's also a lot to be said for how the actors are delivering these lines, and Fiore's dub VA says his lines to Darien with such tenderness, it's hard to say the dub worked to downplay the potential homoamorous aspect of the story. The "We're like brothers" line perhaps contradicts that, but I don't think it inherently does.
 

BlueMoon

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Didn't he also say "we're like brothers!" after Mamoru threw a rose at him? That sure sounds like trying to downplay the romantic angle to me.
Considering this dubs knack for saying “No homo unless its incest then its hell yes!” that just makes it worse
 
Main difference I'm noticing is dub Fiore keeps using words like "friend" and We're like brothers", while Japanese Fiore only used the word "friendship" to describe their existing relationship rather than his feelings. That's a very important distinction, because it means the dub took ambiguous lines and turned them into conclusive, platonic statements. They might not have entirely removed the subtext, but overall, it seems the dub retained the intimacy of their friendship more than the ambiguity of Fiore's feelings.
 
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BlueMoon

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Inserting my own unasked for commentary (thanks @MementoNepenthe for posting these)


: Fiore, your heart was pure then, but no longer.
Fiore: And you swore me eternal friendship, but now you chose this dingbat over me, Darien?
Darien: She is my friend, as you are. If you believe in our friendship, Fiore, you must trust in Sailor Moon and the people here.
Fiore: If you say so.
[...]
Fiore: This girl has you bamboozled, Darien!
[...]
Darien: The reason Earth is so appealing to you is because the Sailor Scouts drive out the negative forces.
Fiore: They are the negative forces!
[...]
Fiore: I can't lose him. He's the only friend I've ever had.
It’s funny, the flowery prose makes Tuxedo Mask sound more like Tuxedo Mask than the Japanese dialog



---------------------------
Mamoru: (After breaking out of his crystal healing tank) Usa!

Darien: You are not my friend!
Funny how it changes from Mamoru being concerned about his Usagi to realizing(?) that Fiore isn’t the Fiore he bonded with 10 years ago


.
Rei: You don't get it at all. If we had not met Usagi, we would all be alone right now!

Raye: You're the one who's been tricked. Kisenian Blossom wants to rule alone. She'll destroy you, Fiore. Once she gets what she wants, you're history and Darien will be, too.
This dub text that Kisenian will dispose of Fiore when he’s served his purpose is interesting


Fiore: I can't— because Mamoru— threw a flower at me.

Fiore: We're like brothers. We've shared the same pain. All I hoped for was to be friends once more.
Points to Optimum productions. The Japanese line just sounds ridiculous here
-------------------------
 

Sabrblade

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Reading through all of that, while there is still some subtext left in the old dub (though, I'd personally argue that it's really only there if one really wanted read it all as such, as I remain to be convinced that Fiore had any romantic feelings towards Mamoru even in the Japanese version, but I digress), the relationship being specifically a friendship is significantly up-played, to the point that all dialogue about Serena and Darien's relationship is even written to specifically call it a friendship too.

So, yeah, they did try to hide the romantic subtext that people might have read between Fiore and Darien in the old dub, but only to a certain extent since people still read into it anyway like they did with Uranus' and Neptune's "cousin" relationship.
 

MementoNepenthe

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I don't interpret Fiore's feelings as romantic either. It's fine if others do, but I don't see it personally. However I don't think the original dub deliberately tried to down play or hide such an interpretation. If that were their intent, they would have given Fiore's VA different direction, not had Kisenian suggestively emphasize the word special in special bond, had Fiore call Serena a thief of hearts, etc. The reading is still just as available in the dub as in the Japanese (which also uses the word friendship) imo
 
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This does raise a question: Why did the old dub feel the need to add additional instances of "friends" and even a "We're like brothers" line if there's nothing there? If the original suggests nothing but friendship, what's wrong with keeping the ambiguity of Fiore's original lines?
 
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Sabrblade

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Yeah, I mean, look at all the instances where the old dub inserted the words "friend(s)" or "friendship(s)" to give a specific definition to each relationship spoken about in places where said relationships were either more open to viewer interpretation (Fiore and Darien) or were suppose to be boyfriend/girlfriend (Serena and Darien).

For the former cases, it's like the old dub was trying to definitely spell out that the two boys were friends and only friends, in a Platonic sense, while the latter cases felt like they too were trying to hide the fact that Serena and Darien were a romantic couple, despite the obvious visual cues in the onscreen animation, as though to say that Fiore was trying to replace Serena with himself as Darien's most important friend rather than as his lover.
 

MementoNepenthe

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The "We're like brothers" line is somewhat questionable, though it does make me think of Rainy Day Man (which has the line "Just like a brother you've been strong and true," and which I've always felt was a bit ambiguous as to whether or not it was a [romantic] love song or just a song about a really important friend or what), so perhaps one of the writers for the old dub had some sort of brother complex :lol:

As for the additional instances of "friends"...

In the Japanese, Fiore refers to their relationship as a "friendship" (So you didn't forget about our friendship after all!), as do Mamoru (If our friendship is true, then please believe in her and the people on this planet!; later, in the last flashback: Soon, a close friend is going away.) and Xenian Flower (If you defeat Sailor Moon, Mamoru will remember the friendship you two once shared.). Certainly the dub uses the word "friend" or "friendship" a lot more, but does that really matter so much when it's used in the original?

Furthermore, they used it for good reason. While, in this context at least, "friend/friendship" may not be the most ambiguous of terms (though I'd argue that the descriptions of Darien and Serena's relationship as a "friendship" makes the understanding of the word in the dub more ambiguous), it's the most neutral and, as importantly, natural they could have used. (I've never known anyone who would seriously and casually say "special person" or anything similar in real life.) In the interest of giving the movie a consistent and coherent theme (i.e. the power and importance of friendship), "friend" was the best word, if not the only one, they could have chosen, and if it comes up so much, I think that's only to really emphasize the film's message rather than as part of some diabolical ploy to scrub out any potential homoerotic overtones.

The film really only has two potential messages: the power of love (cue the song!) or the power of friendship. This is a Sailor Moon (and the Sailor Scouts) movie, not a Tuxedo Mask movie.. The film's message needs to directly involve the Sailors. The girls don't have love interests they moon over (pun semi-intended), and it would be a bit odd for them to try and reason with Fiore by telling them how much they love Sailor Moon. Similarly, it would be awkward for Sailor Moon to offer Fiore her love. But the girls can talk about their friendship, and friendship in general. In the interest of using consistent language, Fiore and Darien's relationship is spoken of in those same terms.

But the words chosen are still something of a surface issue. I think the motivation behind the words being spoken is as important, perhaps more so. Let's look at the moment where Fiore attacks Sailor Moon, only to inadvertently stab Tuxedo Mask instead. In the Japanese version, Fiore says, "Mamoru, you think so highly of this girl?" This line perhaps illustrates his disdain for Usagi, his jealousy of her. But it also focuses his reaction to stabbing the guy he potentially loves entirely on Usagi. In the Pioneer dub version, by contrast, Fiore says, "I can't lose him. He's the only friend I've ever had." Yes, he uses that horrible f-word, but let's look at what he's expressing: He's entirely focused on Darien. His words aren't about Serena; they're about his fear of loving this guy who means so much to him. Think about it. If you were in a love triangle and something happened to the person you loved, would your response be about the third party or about the one you love?

If you're gonna get caught up on the word "friend" or even the word "brother," it's easy to say the dub tried to water down the subtext. But if you look at the nuances of the dialog and how the scenes play out, I think you'll find the subtext is all still there, just in different places.
 
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MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
Mar 8, 2012
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I was actually thinking about that. I was planning on trying to watch the movies either after their respective season or when they would theoretically take place (albeit it Rini knowing Serena is her mom in Promise of Rose muddles the continuity up a bit)
Here's what the Nakayoshi Sailor Moon R Movie Memorial Album Art Book has to say:

テレビシリーズとの前後関係はどうなっているの?

今回の映画は、テレビ版ではいつにあたるのだろうか。
映画では、うさぎと衛はアツアツの恋人で、すでに、ちびうさとレイたちは仲よしになっている。
また、ちびうさは、ブラックレディに変身してはいない。
れらの条件を満たす時期は、「セーラームーンR」では、 七十八話から八十一話のあたり。
しかし、八十話前後で描かれているのは冬のエビソードなのに、映画ではうさぎたちは春服を着ている……。
「セーラームーンR」の最終回で、ブラックムーンを倒してから、ちびうさが未来に帰るまでの短い間の話だったといつことなら、矛盾はないはずだが、きみはどう思う?
Which Google tells me means...

Where does the movie fit into the continuity of the TV series?

In the movie, Usagi and Mamoru are hot-hot lovers, Chibiusa is friends with Rei and the girls, and she isn't Black Lady. The time that satisfies these conditions is around episodes 78-81 of "Sailor Moon R." However, around episode 80, the girls are shown wearing winter clothes, whereas they're
wearing spring clothes in the movies... In the last episode of "Sailor Moon R," during the period between defeating the Black Moon and Chibiusa's return to the future, there should be no contradiction, but what do you think?

So basically... If you wanted to watch everything in its in-universe chronological order, you'd have to stop Final Battle after Wiseman is defeated, then go watch the R movie, then watch the last minute or so of Final Battle where Rini goes back to the future. :lol:


ETA: Fiore's character design sheet in the aforementioned art book describes his relationship with Mamoru as 友情 friendship. According to Tuxedo Unmasked's write-up of Ikuhara's commentary from the laserdisc booklet, he also described it as a friendship.
 
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BlueMoon

Lumen Cinereum
Sep 6, 2014
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So basically... If you wanted to watch everything in its in-universe chronological order, you'd have to stop Final Battle after Wiseman is defeated, then go watch the R movie, then watch the last minute or so of Final Battle where Rini goes back to the future. :lol:
Yeah, I mean that’s basically where I place the dub version taking place. Since Rini knows Serena is her mom and by the time that was revealed there was no breathing room until Wiseman was defeated so it just makes sense for Promise of the Rose to take place internal to Final Battle. After the battle but before the epilogue.

But like I said for convenience I just plan on watching all 3 movies between R and S :P