Unsolved Mysteries of the Optimum Dub

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MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
Mar 8, 2012
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#41
^ Just checked that episode and it's Neptune (well, Michelle) who says it. Forgot about that line.
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#42
...I kind of forgot about that, hence the first "I" in "IIRC." So he is "King Darien." Except when he's not.

This is why we need a re-release of the old dub.

^ Just checked that episode and it's Neptune (well, Michelle) who says it. Forgot about that line.
This raises a big question. I know that Michelle/Sailor Neptune has intuition, but was she able to foretell that he would be a king? Or did Pluto break her own Temporal Prime Directive?
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
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#45
This raises a big question. I know that Michelle/Sailor Neptune has intuition, but was she able to foretell that he would be a king? Or did Pluto break her own Temporal Prime Directive?
This is another "unsolved mystery" for me: When are Uranus and Neptune from? In episode 104 (Tainted Tea Party) they introduce themselves as so:

"Out of the future, into the present, I fight for justice. I'm Sailor Uranus."​
"Out of the oceans of the future and into the present, I'm Sailor Neptune!"​

That makes it sound like they're from Crystal Tokyo. But then there's this exchange in episode 113 (Rini's Risky Friendship)...

Mamoru: The warriors of the Silver Millennium, from the distant past...​
Darien: So, you're the Sailor Scouts from the Silver Millennium in the past, is that right?
Setsuna: And...ones summoned from the future.​
Trista: Yes, but we've also been sent from the future.
[...]​
Setsuna: From the distant past, our duty has been to protect the Silver Millennium from enemies who intrude from outside the solar system.​
Trista: Long, long ago, our mission was to protect the Silver Millennium from enemies invading from outside the solar system.
Haruka: But, when we awakened in this age, the enemy had already quietly nested deep down on this Earth.​
Amara: But before we completed that mission, while fighting the hideous enemy, they disappeared. Then we found the enemy was on this planet."
Michiru: We had overlooked it. The intrusion of the enemy this time is our mistake.​
Michelle: We're to blame for the enemy's successful invasion here on Earth, because we weren't here to stop it.

In both the dub and the original Japanese, it sounds like, just as Pluto came from the future, Uranus and Neptune came directly from the past, and that the battle against the Death Busters has been waging since the Silver Millennium.

Neptune's dub dialog in episode 117 (Heightened Hazard) doubles down on that:

Michiru: When we were born in this day and age, and had awakened to our past, the enemy had already nested herself secretly on this planet.​
Michelle: That's why we were sent from the past to this period. When we arrived, we found our toughest opponents here and set up base. It will take all our strength to beat them.

In the Japanese, Michiru indicates that she and Haruka were reborn on Earth like the others were, but in the dub, Michelle seems to be saying she and Amara directly time traveled to the present. So... Which is it? Are they from the past? Or are they from the future? In either case, at least Amara seems to have dealt with some time travel-related amnesia given episode 106 (Related by Destiny). Still, the idea that they're time travelers instead of reincarnations would at least explain Neptune's origin/backstory and why neither of them ever talk about parents/family.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#46
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This raises a big question. I know that Michelle/Sailor Neptune has intuition, but was she able to foretell that he would be a king? Or did Pluto break her own Temporal Prime Directive?
Well she was one of two Scouts who wasn’t awakened with the help of another so not out of possiblity I suppose.


And now I’m realizing we never got to see in the anime how Venus, Neptune, and Pluto became Sailor Scouts...


@Memento for some reason as I kid I do recall thinking Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus were from the future and not the present like the main team and Hotaru.

Although yeah Amara/Haruka didn’t remember her duty as a Sailor Soldier in her origin episode so they were either reborn or she had time travel amnesia.
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
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#48
Oh, of course they're just sloppy mistakes. The S dub was an almost nonstop series of sloppy mistakes. But if we're going to treat these details seriously as part of the dub's canon, what do they mean? How can we reconcile these seemingly contradictory statements about Uranus and Neptune's temporal origins?

Possible Timeline:

Silver Millennium: Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto seek to defend the Outer Solar System from the Heart Snatchers. The Heart Snatchers manage to escape defeat by traveling to 1990s Japan. The Outers witness the downfall of the Moon Kingdom but do not die alongside everyone else. Instead, Pluto remains guarding the Door of Space-Time while Uranus and Neptune are sent bodily through time to our present.

Present-Day Japan: Neptune arrives with her memories in tact but she has been separated from Uranus, who has lost her memories. Neptune constructs the identity of Michelle Kaioh, cousin of Uranus, who has been calling herself Amara Tenoh. Michelle is able to help Amara regain her memories and they resume their mission of fighting the Heart Snatchers and searching for the Pure Heart Crystal Treasures. They meet the Inners but repeat failures leave them frustrated. Realizing they need help, they travel to the future after the defeat of Kaori Knight.

30th Century Crystal Tokyo: Neptune and Uranus arrive in the future to find Sailor Pluto and bring her back to the past/present with them. They spend an unknown amount of time there, perhaps do some training to strengthen their powers. Pluto is unable to go back with them then and there, but promises she'll be along soon.

Present-Day Japan: Neptune and Uranus return to our present just as Eugeal takes the stage. Rini travels back to our present at the same time, but the three had not crossed paths in the future. Though they are still technically from the past, their training in the future leads them to introduce themselves as being "Out of the future."


Okay, so I know it's a reach, but it's the best explanation I can come up with at the moment.
 
Jun 30, 2010
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#49
MementoNepenthe....you're making too much sense. :happy:

I feel like most of these are just sloppy dub mistakes, haha. This is the same dub that called Sailor Saturn the "dark Sailor Scout", right after she was revealed to not be evil.
While that is true, as MementoNepenthe wrote, the whole Outers situation is both contradictory and vague even in the Japanese version of the old anime. The dub introduced more errors, no doubt, but this particular mystery still exists somewhat in the original anime due to it skirting around the purposes of the Outers. The major difference is that Neptune references Prince Endmyion in the original version...so no future vision there...

Well she was one of two Scouts who wasn’t awakened with the help of another so not out of possiblity I suppose.


And now I’m realizing we never got to see in the anime how Venus, Neptune, and Pluto became Sailor Scouts...


@Memento for some reason as I kid I do recall thinking Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus were from the future and not the present like the main team and Hotaru.
I think that them being from the future would have been a better backstory than what actually did happen. Heck, it would've made more sense if they were trying to prevent Sailor Saturn's awakening not because a prophecy but because they already lived the aftermath. It would have made their hardcore, bullheaded tactics a little more understandable, as well as explain how they had access to technology and money normal people wouldn't be able to earn.
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
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#50
They don't even want to prevent Sailor Saturn from awakening; they just want to kill Hotaru, not realizing that Saturn only awakens when things have reached the point of no return, and that killing Hotaru would not stop that from happening. They should have just focused on stopping the Death Busters instead of going after a tween, but I guess we needed to establish how ~hardcore~ the Outers are, logic be damned.
 

MementoNepenthe

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#51
In the episode "The Power of Friendship," we get this exchange between Raye and Lita:

Lita: I think we can handle them. Sailor Moon and I dusted that game machine monster easy.​
Raye: Yeah, with a little help from Tuxedo Mask.​

We all know that Tuxedo Mask did not appear in the previous episode (Jupiter Comes Thundering In) and did not help Jupiter and Sailor Moon defeat the game machine monster, so what gives with that line? (Obviously it's just an incredibly careless, sloppy mistake, but let's treat it seriously and work out an in-universe explanation for it.)

Theory #1. Raye simply assumed Tuxedo Mask had helped and neither Lita nor Luna corrected her (for whatever reason). An "I'll bet" tagged at the end would have made her sarcastic, dismissive assumption more apparent, but no matter.

Theory #2. Someone or something disrupted the timeline and altered the events of the battle so that Tuxedo Mask participated. There's something about this episode that seems to attract adaptational weirdness (the Kodansha TV picture book included Mercury and Mars in the battle, and had Sailor Moon cleanse Crane Game Joe with "Moon Power Healing" instead of "Moon Healing Escalation"), so maybe we can get a little meta and say the reason for that is some in-universe timeline tampering. Who or what is responsible and why I'm not sure, but the idea of there being multiple alternate timeline/universe versions of every episode is an intriguing one...

On a semi-related note, when I first remembered Raye's line, I'd forgotten that Lita had specifically mentioned the game machine monster, so at first I wondered if Raye's line could have referred to the plot of the Sailor Moon Play-a-Sound book. Obviously it doesn't, but I'm curious... Do you guys consider that book canon to the dub? If so, where in the timeline do we place it? If we acknowledge Venus's presence in the illustrations, it would have to take place during "A Crystal Clear Destiny," but if we ignore Venus since she's not mentioned at all in the actual text, I'd probably place it after "An Artful Attack" due to the similar concept of using art for evil. Heinous artwork aside, it's a cute little story and I loved getting an original story set in the dub universe and I wish we'd gotten more such original story books.
 

Umino

Luna Crescens
Jun 6, 2006
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#52
I always figured it was Raye making a false assumption. She thinks the line too, so it's not like she says it out loud.

There's also Raye's infamous "I was a Sailor Scout before you!" talking to Amy in "Follow the Leader".
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#53
I always figured it was Raye making a false assumption. She thinks the line too, so it's not like she says it out loud.
I always assumed Raye just made a assumption since Tuxedo Mask appeared to help out in most of the battled she was involved in.

I have no idea why fans got pissy about that dub flub. People make wrong assumptions all the time.

Now if Lita had mention Tux that would be an issue

There's also Raye's infamous "I was a Sailor Scout before you!" talking to Amy in "Follow the Leader".
There’s really no way to justify this. Like I guess since Barlow would voice Mina in S and SuperS and Raye’s line was a voice over you can pretend it’s Mina saying that line.

It’s a blatant screw up by the dub without a handwave like the other example
 

MementoNepenthe

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#54
There’s really no way to justify this. Like I guess since Barlow would voice Mina in S and SuperS and Raye’s line was a voice over you can pretend it’s Mina saying that line.
Except that Mina says right after Raye's line that she was a Sailor V long before any of them even knew what a Sailor Scout was, so that wouldn't work.

Either that line's another sign that some timeline tampering has happened, or Raye has early onset dementia. Or she's a pathological liar.

As for her "Yeah, with a little help from Tuxedo Mask" line, I'm not convinced she's thinking that line. Thought dialog has a sort of muffled effect laid over it, but her line sounds as loud and clear as everyone else's in that scene to me. Her mouth may not be moving, but the dub wasn't always concerned with lip flap matching. It's ambiguous to me, but I think it makes things a lot simpler to just interpret the line as a (mistaken) thought.
 

Umino

Luna Crescens
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#55
As for her "Yeah, with a little help from Tuxedo Mask" line, I'm not convinced she's thinking that line. Thought dialog has a sort of muffled effect laid over it, but her line sounds as loud and clear as everyone else's in that scene to me. Her mouth may not be moving, but the dub wasn't always concerned with lip flap matching. It's ambiguous to me, but I think it makes things a lot simpler to just interpret the line as a (mistaken) thought.
But also, she thinks the line (which is different) in the Japanese version. Also, nobody reacts to it. I think it's better off to write it off as Raye just assumed Tuxedo Mask helped them.
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
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#56
An "I'll bet" or "No doubt" tagged on to that line would have made it clear that Raye was just making an assumption, rather than stating a (supposed) fact, but oh well. I do agree that regarding that line as just her mistaken thought is the simplest solution to the matter; definitely better than the timey-wimey alternative :lol:

Anyway, speaking of the "Follow the Leader" episode, Mina has a line that's interesting:

"Perhaps you guys have forgotten, but I was a big movie star way before you guys came along. I had my own video game, all kinds of toys, clothes and stuff, even a Sailor V doll."​

Now, when she says "I was a big movie star," is she just talking about "Sailor V" as a separate entity (i.e. that as Sailor V, she was such a popular figure she inspired movies based on her) or is she literally talking about herself, saying that she personally was on set starring in Sailor V movies (or doing the voice acting in them (which, side note, I would have loved a sequel to the Animated Mess episode that got even more meta and had the girls meet the voice actors who were playing them/their counterparts in the Sailor V anime movie, but alas))?

Because I could see the latter being true. We never learn how Mina awakened as Sailor V(enus) and we never learn about her life before she joins the rest of the team in "Sailor V Makes the Scene." (In fact, in the dub, I'm pretty sure Sailor V is only discussed in the context of media (video games, comic books, movies), so it's not entirely clear (from what I remember) if Sailor V is even known to be a real life superhero.) And, while I obviously wouldn't take it as gospel, her character profile in the "Collectafile" that came with the action figures (which referred to the Outers as Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia, and erroneously called Mina "Nina") states "[M]ina was a professional model." Irwin may have made that up themselves, but maybe it came from a possible DIC dub story bible? Anyway...

So here's the scenario I'm imagining:
Mina meets Artemis and awakens as a Sailor Scout. As Sailor V she fights crime and captures the attention of a media company that approaches her to license her name and likeness and appear in movies. (See: Batman, Early Campy Days of) Mina, having always wanted to be in show biz, agrees to the deal and starts acting in movies about her (always staying in her Sailor V costume). But then the public starts to lose interest in Sailor V (the kids in the "Kindergarten Chaos" episode seem to have never heard of her, and really after the first season, I don't think there are really any mentions of Sailor V apart from the occasional easter egg image) and Mina becomes super busy fighting the Negaverse with the rest of the Sailors, so she/Sailor V quietly retires from public life. However, Mina still has her show biz ambitions, only now she wants to become a star as herself (Mina), not as a Sailor Scout.

Thoughts?
 
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MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
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#57
Another point of ambiguity in the DIC dub: Is Darien's real name Darien?

In episode 34 (The Sparkling Silver Crystal! The Moon Princess Appears!), Mamoru tells Usagi why he's interested in the Rainbow Crystals:

Mamoru: I just wanted to recall my past.​
Usagi: Eh?​
Mamoru: Because, in order to get my memories back, I have to collect the Rainbow Crystals, and get a hold of the Legendary Silver Crystal.​
Usagi: (thinking) He even knows about the Silver Crystal.​
Mamoru: My parents were killed in a car accident when I was six.​
Doctor: I'm sorry, but it was too late for the couple. But their only son, Mamoru, has miraculously survived.​
Young Mamoru: Who am I? I don't know. Who... am I?​

In the dub version (A Crystal Clear Destiny), the dialog is a bit different:

Darien: I want to know who I am.​
Serena: Huh?​
Darien: You see, my whole life, I've never known who I really am or where I come from. I mean, I'm not even sure my real name is Darien. I was orphaned in a terrible car crash when I was really young.​
Doctor: Complete amnesia. No memory whatsoever. And he doesn't have any known relatives, so we'd better arrange for an orphanage.​
Young Darien: Who am I? I don't remember. Darien? Darien... Is that my name?​

In the original, Mamoru wants the Rainbow Crystals/Silver Crystal so he can get back his memories of his past (i.e. his childhood memories, but he probably also has a vague awareness of having other lost memories).

In the dub, however, he expresses more of a determination in resolving his identity crisis than in just regaining some nebulous memories. The dub emphasizes his total amnesia; he not only has no memory of where he came from, he's not even sure Darien is his real name. In the Japanese, the doctors matter-of-factly call him Mamoru, so there's no question of that being his real name; that's not the case in the dub. In fact, in the dub, the doctors say nothing about his parents or the car accident, just that he has complete amnesia and no known relatives.

So... Is "Darien" his real name? Or did that name just flash through his head, a fleeting memory from his past life, that he then decided to use due to being a John Doe? Some fans have complained about the "coincidence" of Darien and Serena having the same names as they had in their past lives, but maybe in Darien's case at least, that's not what happened. Maybe he's just literally using (unaware) his past life name?

And what if Darien wasn't even an orphan? He says he doesn't know where he came from... Maybe he just came directly from the past, reborn as a little boy without any actual present life parents. (See: Hotaru, possibly Setsuna?) Maybe he was found wandering around without any memories, and after a search for family turned up nothing, he was sent to an orphanage. Maybe his memory of losing his parents in a car crash was just a false/implanted memory.
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
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#58
(Assuming this information is considered canon)

Whereas Rei's favorite food is fugu, according to the character profiles included with the North American adventure dolls, Raye's favorite food is vegetarian pizza. And, according to the trivia cards given out by the contemporary North American fan club, "Raye loves the beauty of nature and believes in having a pure mind and body, so she doesn't eat junk food."

So: Do we think Raye's a vegetarian, or is she just a health food nut?
 

MementoNepenthe

Aurorae Lunares
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#60
That's true; I could only recall her eating ice cream and it being said she loved banana oatmeal muffins. Forgot about the cruise episode.