Usagi's treatment of Umino in the first season.

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#21
It's not that I think Japanese people would totally condone Mamoru's treatment of Usagi, I'm only suggesting they might also see that much of what he tells her IS good advice, even if he delivers it roughly. For example, it wasn't nice to call Usagi "not beautiful," but she had no respect for the amount of work models put into looking the way they do, and her attention-seeking behavior wasn't demonstrating a lot of inner beauty. (Note her references to inner beauty's importance by the episode's end.)

I also think it's important to note he never seems her put to criticize her, he's usually just stumbling upon her during her ridiculoisly frequent public outbursts. It is a two-way street.
 
Aug 27, 2012
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#22
Salem Saberhagen said:
It's not that I think Japanese people would totally condone Mamoru's treatment of Usagi, I'm only suggesting they might also see that much of what he tells her IS good advice, even if he delivers it roughly. For example, it wasn't nice to call Usagi "not beautiful," but she had no respect for the amount of work models put into looking the way they do, and her attention-seeking behavior wasn't demonstrating a lot of inner beauty. (Note her references to inner beauty's importance by the episode's end.)

I also think it's important to note he never seems her put to criticize her, he's usually just stumbling upon her during her ridiculoisly frequent public outbursts. It is a two-way street.
Usagi never cared for Inner Beauty she's very shallow seriously am I the only one who watched the episode where Usagi admits to being Shallow (the episode were they compete to make the best wedding dress)
 

Sabrblade

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Sep 13, 2009
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#25
Salem Saberhagen said:
(I wonder if a values difference between cultures is making him seem worse. Since we're so individualist it's considered cruel to criticize someone's grades or eating habits, while in Japan he might be considered rude but maybe they'd also think his intentions were good?)
On this note, I'm reminded of something that I'd seen in another anime that was changed in its English dub to better match the more individualistic American mindset rather than adhering more to the Japanese perspective of individuals that was presented in the original Japanese version.

In the 34th episode of the 2000 Transformers anime series Transformers: Car Robots (which was dubbed in English as Transformers: Robots in Disguise), the main human child character (named "Yūki" in the original and "Koji" in the dub) was under the impression that he might possess some kind of unique special ability (like some kind of superhuman power) because of something extraordinary and otherworldly that only he was able to perform in the episode prior. Though the other characters, his father included, were skeptical of this, the rest of the episode had this theory put to the test to see if it was true or not, and by the episode's end, he and everyone came to accept that Yūki/Koji really was no more special than any other human.

In the scene where he accepts this reality, his father tries to raise his son's spirits with words of wisdom that were very culturally different between the Japanese and English versions. In the English dub, his father's words were more comforting and friendly:

"Listen, son. You made me very proud today. You were willing risk everything for your friends. Your loyalty and your courage, and the goodness in your heart, are very special powers indeed. Never forget that."

In the original Japanese version, however, his father is a little more pragmatic and blunt in expressing the reality he's trying to teach to his son, but still meaning well by his words:

"Yūki. I understand, so it's okay. In nature, there is no such thing as a special human. You're still a child. From this point on, just take your time and grow into something that you're good at doing."

At first glance, the original message seems colder and like it's trying to promote real world practical thinking over dreams and fantasies. But from the Japanese side of things, they might view the English dub's message as sugar-coating a greater lesson to be learned.

That said, the kind of blunt advice Mamoru would give Usagi is largely similar to the kind of advice given in the Japanese lesson above. Whereas the dub softened the notion of Yūki/Koji not not having a special power with comforting words of his courage and goodness being special, Mamoru simply isn't one to give that kind of advice since the culture he's a part of doesn't have that mindset.

We look at his behavior from an American standpoint, but viewing it from a Japanese standpoint would provide a different perspective. From that point of view, Usagi behaves very immature and overly defensive about her shortcomings, when, to the Japanese, she ought to be doing something to about her shortcomings to better herself and become more like the Japanese's vision for the ideal teenager, which in the Sailor Moon series Ami resembles the closest. Whereas Usagi is lazy, childish, and more concerned about the present than her future (with her ultimate goal simply being to get married and live a domestic life as housewife to a working husband who will take care of her), Ami is diligently studious, intelligent, and very focused on her future goal of becoming a doctor. In these regards, Ami is what Japan wants girls like Usagi to be like. Proactive in her studies and dedicated to societal conformities. Mamoru is like this as well, and when seeing Usagi behave in such flighty, non-conforming, nontraditional ways, he calls her out on it as a means to help set her back on track to how a young Japanese schoolgirl ought to behave. And Usagi takes offense to his blunt advice as a result of her personality being atypical for traditional Japanese people. Usagi stands out from the norm while Mamoru at first is a part of it.
 
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kamen_glider

Lapis Lunaris
Jul 10, 2012
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#26
Sabrblade, I completely agree with you. This is why anime Rei was translated so badly in the original dub and even when many Western people watch the original Japanese they think Rei is being abusive or something to Usagi when Rei is just blunt and pushing Usagi to be better. It's also why both Mamoru and Rei are only tough on Usagi and no one else because Usagi is exactly as you described. That's why in most of my examples I provided moments when Mamoru is just being mean to Usagi for the heck of it! :P
(At least that's how interpret it). Although it's true that she keeps hitting him on the head. But I think he teases her so much because he likes her, and that's what I'm against. I'm not a fan of that trope.

Salem Saberhagen, it's true that Mamoru gives good advice about the importance of inner beauty but he explicitly tells Usagi that she doesn't have outer beauty or inner beauty haha.
 
#27
@AmiMizuno'sHusband: I just looked it up, and the wedding dress episode actually is right before the modeling episode. In retrospect it seems like a nice progression of her values.

At Kamen glider: I think I already said to you that I agreed calling her "not beautiful" was mean, but I still think they'res also something in it besides meanness.

@ Sabrblade: that's a very interesting comparison. I've never heard anyone say "there's no such thing as a special person" before. I'm gonna be thinking about that for a while. It's certainly not the kind of idealistic message we're used to over here. Thank you for taking the time to share that with us!
 

Sabrblade

Luna Crescens
Sep 13, 2009
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#28
Salem Saberhagen said:
@ Sabrblade: that's a very interesting comparison. I've never heard anyone say "there's no such thing as a special person" before. I'm gonna be thinking about that for a while. It's certainly not the kind of idealistic message we're used to over here. Thank you for taking the time to share that with us!
I also forgot to mention that the kid's father was a scientist in that show, so while the English dub approached his words of wisdom from a more fatherly perspective, the original Japanese version went for a more blended "scientific fatherly" perspective.
 

kamen_glider

Lapis Lunaris
Jul 10, 2012
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#29
Salem Saberhagen said:
At Kamen glider: I think I already said to you that I agreed calling her "not beautiful" was mean, but I still think they'res also something in it besides meanness.
Sorry, I misread you. I agree with you on that, while Mamoru may be mean to Usagi it's true that there's more than meanness behind it
 

usagi29

Lapis Lunaris
Feb 22, 2019
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#30
I only don't like that in episode 15, when she sees him outside of Game Center Crowd, she wants to go out with him one time. She used him for his money just so she can spy on Mamoru & Rei, she knows that he wants to date her .
 

MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#31
Yeah but... Mamoru was a college student basically bullying a middle school girl. Yeah, you can call it "teasing", but he would just show up randomly and tell her she's stupid/fat/unlady like. He even makes her cry in one episode because he's such a jerk.

Also, Umino is kind of a creep and even ends up stalking Ms. Haruna at one point...
Usagi could be just as mean and disrespectful to Mamoru though. They both tossed some harsh exchanges back and forth so I don't see how people bash Mamoru for their season 1 love hate relationship but non Usagi. Once more Usagi and Rei have a very similar dynamic and Rei and Mamoru both bonded over their mutual teasing of Usagi. I remember distinctly that Usagi even called Rei a dirty, lying tramp in one episode. Once more Usagi herself even teases and is confrontational with Chibiusa and Chibiusa is just a little kids likewise Usagi is every bit as confrontational as Shingo. So again I don't see how just because Mamoru is older then Usagi this somehow makes his teasing and fighting with her any less of an issue then all of the other people Usagi gets in arguments with. Also Mamoru may be a College student but he is also something of an introvert with not very good social skills and hasn't really opened up to people much after his parents died and he was made an orphan. Usagi was the first person he truly did this too.
 

Sabrblade

Luna Crescens
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#32
Usagi's just a very immature, insecure, and shallow kid in the first season, so she had a LOT of room to grow over the course of the series. As a result, she became less harsh and more friendly towards Umino, so naturally the physical abuse he endured (albeit, for comic relief purposes anyway) died down over time.

Of course, his taking an interest in Naru over Usagi did also help things for Usagi too.
 

sapphire91

Lumen Cinereum
Jul 6, 2018
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#33
Well, Umino is not just a nerd, few times he was shown as downright creepy otaku. Japanese society has never been very accepting of this type and rightfully so. Umino was a stalker and weird. Way back in episode 2 the youma makes him and rest of the guys commit to their desires without boundaries. So basically Umino succumbes to his inner wishes, without any judges. He forces himself on Usagi and sexually harassed miss Haruna. He is probably ment to represent this part of the society that can be very disturbing. Usagi on the other hand is a popular teenager, living healthier life style that finds him repulsive the way most Japanese people do with radical otaku. So I can understand her. The 90s were a lot less sensitive, and sometimes I prefer it this way. Nowadayys everything is a little bit too politically correct.