What were Saphir's true feelings for Demand?

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What did Saphir feel for his brother?

  • Romantic Love

    Votes: 9 42.9%
  • Just Jealousy

    Votes: 12 57.1%

  • Total voters
    21
Jul 29, 2012
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#61
If memory doesn’t fail me, it is somewhat implied in the manga that Saphir cares about his brother and is worried about how Wiseman controls him; it might be subtle or nonexistent, but maybe Saphir likes his brother in the manga, too.

Wasn’t Rubeus infatuated with Esmeraude in the 90’s anime, too, or am I imagining things?
 
Jun 17, 2019
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#62
If memory doesn’t fail me, it is somewhat implied in the manga that Saphir cares about his brother and is worried about how Wiseman controls him; it might be subtle or nonexistent, but maybe Saphir likes his brother in the manga, too.
Not really, pretty much the only thing that can be taken as a hint is that he tries to kill Sailor Moon but it's made pretty clear that's just due to him being psychotic and seriously believing that the Silver Crystal is the cause of all the trouble in the world. In the manga he's not suspicious of Wiseman either, in fact that's more Rubeus's area. (Rubeus is better developed in the manga compared to the 90's anime surprisingly)

Wasn’t Rubeus infatuated with Esmeraude in the 90’s anime, too, or am I imagining things?
No, Rubeus and Esmeraude hate each other's guts in the anime, lol, she was actually the one who killed him. In the manga/Crystal though there is an implication that there might be something since he teases her playfully there.
 
Apr 1, 2020
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#63
Not really, pretty much the only thing that can be taken as a hint is that he tries to kill Sailor Moon but it's made pretty clear that's just due to him being psychotic and seriously believing that the Silver Crystal is the cause of all the trouble in the world. In the manga he's not suspicious of Wiseman either, in fact that's more Rubeus's area. (Rubeus is better developed in the manga compared to the 90's anime surprisingly)


No, Rubeus and Esmeraude hate each other's guts in the anime, lol, she was actually the one who killed him. In the manga/Crystal though there is an implication that there might be something since he teases her playfully there.
That scene felt a bit odd to me, he seems to be quite rational before that page, and suddenly turned into a monster and tried to kill Sailor Moon.

Rubeus was evil in the 90s anime, but he was also menacing and manipulative, I don't think he was not developed, just didn't get to see his human side before his last moment.
 
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#64
That scene felt a bit odd to me, he seems to be quite rational before that page, and suddenly turned into a monster and tried to kill Sailor Moon.
Yeah the manga is infamously known for having a problem developing it's villains, this is just but one example. Pretty much the only villains that were done better in the manga compared to the 90's were Beryl and Galaxia, (and to some extent Rubeus as I just explained) everyone else was much better characterized in the 90's anime for the most part.
 
Apr 1, 2020
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#65
Yeah the manga is infamously known for having a problem developing it's villains, this is just but one example. Pretty much the only villains that were done better in the manga compared to the 90's were Beryl and Galaxia, (and to some extent Rubeus as I just explained) everyone else was much better characterized in the 90's anime for the most part.
Demande was also well done except the ending. He was crazy and utter evil in the manga but we also saw his goal, his struggle and his counterattack against Wiseman.
 

Clow

Stella
Jul 29, 2012
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#66
Not really, pretty much the only thing that can be taken as a hint is that he tries to kill Sailor Moon but it's made pretty clear that's just due to him being psychotic and seriously believing that the Silver Crystal is the cause of all the trouble in the world. In the manga he's not suspicious of Wiseman either, in fact that's more Rubeus's area. (Rubeus is better developed in the manga compared to the 90's anime surprisingly)


No, Rubeus and Esmeraude hate each other's guts in the anime, lol, she was actually the one who killed him. In the manga/Crystal though there is an implication that there might be something since he teases her playfully there.
Thanks for reminding me. I haven’t watched R for a long time. I prefer the Crystal version.
 
Jun 17, 2019
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#67
Thanks for reminding me. I haven’t watched R for a long time. I prefer the Crystal version.
I generally prefer the Manga/Crystal version of R too when it comes to the plot and it's overall handling of both Chibi-Usa and Pluto, but the BMC is definitely one area I prefer the 90's anime to the Manga/Crystal. (Except maybe Rubeus's characterization)
 
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#68
Here's some proof that Demande/Saphir is quite the popular ship in Japan, and that the Japanese interpret it to be a canon ship in the 90's anime same way Kunzite & Zocite are accepted as one. (or at least semi-canon from Saphir's side) Japanese fans make tons of cosplay shipping videos of them, such as these two which are some of my favorites.


https://youtu.be/ZHl8PWvMzb8

https://youtu.be/8sL39uIgGuc

They also get quite a ton of doujins made of them (alot of which I own myself) you have to understand that shipping culture is completely different in Japan vs the East, canon reigns supreme there and crackships are few & far between, so you won't see many doujins of stuff like Demande/Mamoru or even rare Senshi shippings like Minako/Ami, it's always the default pairings, so if a certain ship is getting lots of fan-content produced in Japan it's safe to say that it's interpreted as canon or semi-canon by the vast majority of the Japanese audience.
 

Nadia

Aurorae Lunares
Jun 30, 2010
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#69
Here's some proof that Demande/Saphir is quite the popular ship in Japan, and that the Japanese interpret it to be a canon ship in the 90's anime same way Kunzite & Zocite are accepted as one. (or at least semi-canon from Saphir's side) Japanese fans make tons of cosplay shipping videos of them, such as these two which are some of my favorites.


https://youtu.be/ZHl8PWvMzb8

https://youtu.be/8sL39uIgGuc

They also get quite a ton of doujins made of them (alot of which I own myself) you have to understand that shipping culture is completely different in Japan vs the East, canon reigns supreme there and crackships are few & far between, so you won't see many doujins of stuff like Demande/Mamoru or even rare Senshi shippings like Minako/Ami, it's always the default pairings, so if a certain ship is getting lots of fan-content produced in Japan it's safe to say that it's interpreted as canon or semi-canon by the vast majority of the Japanese audience.
Just because there's a fan-preferred pairing doesn't make it canonical. There are plenty of non-canon ships that fans wish were canon (like Lapidot) and are heavily referenced in fan pairings but aren't meant to be a couple.
 
Sep 13, 2009
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#70
If Naoko or one of her licensees didn't make it, it ain't canon.

"Canon" = "Official", as in needing to come from those in charge of producing licensed fiction for the series.

Coming from fans who have no legal authority over the series = "headcanon"/"unlicensed"/"unofficial".
 
Jul 17, 2006
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#71
I think the real question to start with here is to confirm if his name is Diamond (which will be totally logical with his other Black Moon colleagues) or Demande :rofl:
 
Aug 16, 2014
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#73
If Naoko or one of her licensees didn't make it, it ain't canon.

"Canon" = "Official", as in needing to come from those in charge of producing licensed fiction for the series.

Coming from fans who have no legal authority over the series = "headcanon"/"unlicensed"/"unofficial".
I feel like unless we get an official source on this.This is just speculation.
 
Likes: Yamoon
Jun 17, 2019
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#74
Just because there's a fan-preferred pairing doesn't make it canonical. There are plenty of non-canon ships that fans wish were canon (like Lapidot) and are heavily referenced in fan pairings but aren't meant to be a couple.
I know that doesn't make it canon, that doesn't change the fact that Japan tends to be a stickler for canon ships, so if there's a lot of fan material being made for a ship in Japan, that means the subtext was obviously there and is close as possible to being "canon" without actually being canon, if you know what I mean. Japan generally doesn't go wild in imagination with crackships

I feel like unless we get an official source on this.This is just speculation.
If Naoko or one of her licensees didn't make it, it ain't canon.

"Canon" = "Official", as in needing to come from those in charge of producing licensed fiction for the series.

Coming from fans who have no legal authority over the series = "headcanon"/"unlicensed"/"unofficial".
Well Saphir's profile in the Official R Media Works that I posted outright states the could only see his brother and loved nobody else but him. I agree that it's not canon at all to the manga & Naoko's vision of the story but there's strong evidence to suggest it's canon for Toei & Ikuhara and their vision.

If you want make the argument that they would never go there because they're brothers, I recently learned of this popular trope:


Basically it's still taboo in Asia to feature an out-and out gay couple in fictional works, so a lot of times they get around this by using the "sworn brothers" trope and that's meant be a subtle queer-coding signal. It's very possible Demande & Saphir fall under this definition and might not be actual brothers in the 90's anime at all. Remember also that this is Ikuhara we're talking about here, he ran wild with Naoko's baby and I wouldn't put it past him to "queerify" everything and everyone, so he turned Demande & Saphir from brothers into "brothers."
 
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Nadia

Aurorae Lunares
Jun 30, 2010
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#75
I know that doesn't make it canon, that doesn't change the fact that Japan tends to be a stickler for canon ships, so if there's a lot of fan material being made for a ship in Japan, that means the subtext was obviously there and is close as possible to being "canon" without actually being canon, if you know what I mean. Japan generally doesn't go wild in imagination with crackships.
Yeah, but I referenced Lapidot for a reason. It wasn't a "crack pairing" by any stretch; the two characters (Lapis Lazuli + Peridot) did have a very close and special on-screen relationship that a lot of Steven Universe fans interpreted as romantic but ultimately was not, despite signs being there. While I doubt we will ever get the same type of clarity in terms of an official statement with the Black Moon Brothers, one can't assume romance is involved unless it is demonstrated.

Basically it's still taboo in Asia to feature an out-and out gay couple in fictional works, so a lot of times they get around this by using the "sworn brothers" trope and that's meant be an subtle queer-coding signal. It's very possible Demande & Saphir fall under this definition and might not be actual brothers in the 90's anime at all. Remember also that this is Ikuhara we're talking about here, he ran wild with Naoko's baby and I wouldn't put it past him to "queerify" everything and everyone, so he turned Demande & Saphir from brothers into "brothers."
That can be the case (much like having a "special friend" in the US can mean), but isn't necessarily the case. There is at the same time also a growing trend to treat any "bromance" as a an actual romance and a devaluing of genuine same-gender friendship and non-romantic relationships in favor of romantic ones. People have overcorrected from "why can't they just be friends?" to "there is no way she's 'just a friend.'"

Plus, if Ikuhara did inject same-gender romance into it, then it's just that - an injection of something that shouldn't be there. Didn't Saphir compare his love for his brother to Petz and her love for her sisters? That would indicate there is a blood relation unless you think all of the sisters are just sworn-sisters.

If you want to interpret Saphir and loving Demande in a romantic way, that's your choice, but I don't believe it's there.
 
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#77
Yeah, but I referenced Lapidot for a reason. It wasn't a "crack pairing" by any stretch; the two characters (Lapis Lazuli + Peridot) did have a very close and special on-screen relationship that a lot of Steven Universe fans interpreted as romantic but ultimately was not, despite signs being there. While I doubt we will ever get the same type of clarity in terms of an official statement with the Black Moon Brothers, one can't assume romance is involved unless it is demonstrated.
If only Ikuhara had a Twitter so we could go straight to the source himself and ask what his true intentions were lol.


That can be the case (much like having a "special friend" in the US can mean), but isn't necessarily the case. There is at the same time also a growing trend to treat any "bromance" as a an actual romance and a devaluing of genuine same-gender friendship and non-romantic relationships in favor of romantic ones. People have overcorrected from "why can't they just be friends?" to "there is no way she's 'just a friend.'
Close opposite sex relationships get it even worse I would argue as there’s still a certain subset of the population that believes that men and women can’t REALLY be “just friends.” :roll:

There’s still way more heteronormativity than there is “homonormativity.”

Look at Inuyasha’s Sesshomaru and Rin, they were completely platonic companions in the original, had less hints/subtext between them than 90’s Demande & Saphir ever had, yet come the sequel Yashahime they’re suddenly now a couple. Why? I can only think the reason being because they were two close friends of the opposite sex so of course it has to inevitably lead to romance in the future! /s Heteronormativity at it’s finest.

You’ll still never see a gay ship be so quickly confirmed and openly made canon in comparison, even when the straight ship is still far more of a leap.


Plus, if Ikuhara did inject same-gender romance into it, then it's just that - an injection of something that shouldn't be there. Didn't Saphir compare his love for his brother to Petz and her love for her sisters? That would indicate there is a blood relation unless you think all of the sisters are just sworn-sisters.

If you want to interpret Saphir and loving Demande in a romantic way, that's your choice, but I don't believe it's there.
No, the bond between all the Ayakashi sisters is definitely just sisterly, :P (Though even they may not be blood related as they also look too vastly different from each other to be full-blooded siblings, each has different elemental powers too) I wouldn’t take the comparison Saphir was trying to make so seriously, it was obvious he was just trying to get her to understand so used an analogy that would be appropriate. Your opinion is totally valid ^^ I just believe there’s more than enough ample subtext there to be read between the lines.

Another thing I noticed that might be a delivery pattern. Each season of the 90’s anime seems to feature at least 1 gay character and/or couple. Classic has Zoicite & Kunzite, SuperS has Fish-Eye and Stars has Lead Crow & Siren. S admittedly doesn’t have any queer characters in it’s villain roster, but Haruka and Michiru are still the primary focus of the season so I believe it still counts.

Considering this pattern of each season featuring at least one prominently gay character it’s actually much more likely that Saphir’s feelings for Demande are meant to be interpreted as romantic, because if not R would be the one odd season out that doesn’t feature any queer characters and that doesn’t seem likely considering there’s a clear pattern the anime has established. I suppose you could point to Fiore but I’m not sure he counts considering the movies aren’t really canon and don’t fit properly into the continuity so I’m more inclined to count Saphir as the season’s designated “gay representation.”
 
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Sep 13, 2009
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#80
No, the bond between all the Ayakashi sisters is definitely just sisterly, :P (Though even they may not be blood related as they also look too vastly different from each other to be full-blooded siblings,
Same with every member of Usagi's family. The mother has blue hair, the father has black hair, the daughter has bright yellow blonde hair, and the son has dark blonde hair. The daughter then marries a man with black hair and gives birth to a daughter with pink hair.

Family gene pools really don't seem to be a thing in Sailor Moon. P-: