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 Post subject: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:10 pm 
Luna Crescens
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She used the Moon Healing Escalation in the old anime. Was she trying to make him a good person?


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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:25 am 
Stella
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Yes she did try to heal him. However as he stated he refused to say refresh. Maybe because he wanted vengeance for Zoisite.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:42 am 
Solaris Luna
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No, she wasn't. She uses "Moon Healing Escalation" as an attack in the anime, as well as a method of healing people on occasion. I mean, she uses "Moon Healing Escalation" against Queen Beryl and she certainly wasn't trying to heal her. One of the nice things about the DiC dub was they distinguished between "Moon Healing Activation" for healing people and "Cosmic Moon Power" for when Sailor Moon was attacking a bad guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:26 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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I also don't think Usagi was trying to heal Kunzite. She had used Moon Healing Escalation as an offensive attack against both Zoisite and Kunzite in the episode where Tuxedo Mask was captured.


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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:02 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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Maybe it works as both healing and destroying. It destroys evil beings, like Youma, and heals humans, so she kills the possessing monster while saving the human. So really she could've been doing one or the other without knowing, depending on if there was any hope for Kunzite or if he was pure evil.


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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:17 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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magic713 wrote:
Maybe it works as both healing and destroying. It destroys evil beings, like Youma, and heals humans, so she kills the possessing monster while saving the human. So really she could've been doing one or the other without knowing, depending on if there was any hope for Kunzite or if he was pure evil.


That's a good way to look at it. Her mother in the battle might have been trying to purge all evil from the Kingdom (both Kingdoms possibly) and destroy it forever but she didn't do it quite right. In the present, Usagi remembered this powerful final attack and copied what her mother did. If Kunzite was healed, then hooray. If he was killed then it meant he was beyond saving anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:14 am 
Systema Solare
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"I will not cry refresh!"

I think that at least implies Kunzite expected that result

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:52 pm 
Stella
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
No, she wasn't. She uses "Moon Healing Escalation" as an attack in the anime, as well as a method of healing people on occasion. I mean, she uses "Moon Healing Escalation" against Queen Beryl and she certainly wasn't trying to heal her. One of the nice things about the DiC dub was they distinguished between "Moon Healing Activation" for healing people and "Cosmic Moon Power" for when Sailor Moon was attacking a bad guy.

Actually she was using it to heal him. Kunzite even said that he refused to say refresh implying the intent was to heal. Also I think on Beryl Princess Serenirt she used Moon Healing Escalation to basically put a healing barrier over her.

However I will say this I did like that the DiC dub used Cosmic Moon Power as a way for her to use the Moon Stick offensively. It is a shame this wasn't done in the original.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:39 am 
Luna Nova
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MariaTenebre wrote:
MementoNepenthe wrote:
No, she wasn't. She uses "Moon Healing Escalation" as an attack in the anime, as well as a method of healing people on occasion. I mean, she uses "Moon Healing Escalation" against Queen Beryl and she certainly wasn't trying to heal her. One of the nice things about the DiC dub was they distinguished between "Moon Healing Activation" for healing people and "Cosmic Moon Power" for when Sailor Moon was attacking a bad guy.

Actually she was using it to heal him. Kunzite even said that he refused to say refresh implying the intent was to heal. Also I think on Beryl Princess Serenirt she used Moon Healing Escalation to basically put a healing barrier over her.

However I will say this I did like that the DiC dub used Cosmic Moon Power as a way for her to use the Moon Stick offensively. It is a shame this wasn't done in the original.

The thing is, if he had accepted being healed, would Toei have made him remember that he was a soldier/knight of Endymion? That would have been a nice addition to Kunzite's arc.


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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:45 am 
Stella
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Cierra Moon wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
MementoNepenthe wrote:
No, she wasn't. She uses "Moon Healing Escalation" as an attack in the anime, as well as a method of healing people on occasion. I mean, she uses "Moon Healing Escalation" against Queen Beryl and she certainly wasn't trying to heal her. One of the nice things about the DiC dub was they distinguished between "Moon Healing Activation" for healing people and "Cosmic Moon Power" for when Sailor Moon was attacking a bad guy.

Actually she was using it to heal him. Kunzite even said that he refused to say refresh implying the intent was to heal. Also I think on Beryl Princess Serenirt she used Moon Healing Escalation to basically put a healing barrier over her.

However I will say this I did like that the DiC dub used Cosmic Moon Power as a way for her to use the Moon Stick offensively. It is a shame this wasn't done in the original.

The thing is, if he had accepted being healed, would Toei have made him remember that he was a soldier/knight of Endymion? That would have been a nice addition to Kunzite's arc.

I would have liked that as well. I would have liked if all of the Shitennou were brought back as Tuxedo Mask's guardians in the 90s anime it was subtly implied they were like that scene of Nephrite and Mamoru kind of recognizing each other at the art gallery and was outright stated in various games and extra anime materials of the 90s anime. However no Senshi/Shitennou I think that Zoisite and Kunzite should be a couple. They could be like Tuxedo Mask's version in his team of Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:45 am 
Solaris Luna
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MariaTenebre wrote:
MementoNepenthe wrote:
No, she wasn't. She uses "Moon Healing Escalation" as an attack in the anime, as well as a method of healing people on occasion. I mean, she uses "Moon Healing Escalation" against Queen Beryl and she certainly wasn't trying to heal her. One of the nice things about the DiC dub was they distinguished between "Moon Healing Activation" for healing people and "Cosmic Moon Power" for when Sailor Moon was attacking a bad guy.

Actually she was using it to heal him. Kunzite even said that he refused to say refresh implying the intent was to heal. Also I think on Beryl Princess Serenirt she used Moon Healing Escalation to basically put a healing barrier over her.

However I will say this I did like that the DiC dub used Cosmic Moon Power as a way for her to use the Moon Stick offensively. It is a shame this wasn't done in the original.


I don't think Kunzite saying he refused to say "Refresh!" meant Sailor Moon was trying to heal him or that he thought she was trying to heal him; rather, he was just saying he refused to be defeated by her. If Sailor Moon were trying to heal him, her dialog would have suggested that, but her dialog makes it very clear that she's angry and wants to destroy him. Besides that, there's no reason for her to think he's anything other than a monster/pure evil, so why would she be trying to heal him in the first place?

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:24 pm 
Galaxias
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At the end of the day, wouldn't it just be easier to think of "Moon Healing Escalation" as a purification attack that destroys the evil forces within an enemy, and that those who are so irredeemably evil (eg. - Beryl, Metalia, Kunzite) are completely beyond healing, making the attack fatal to those who have no humanity left within them?

It would honestly explain how Sailor Moon both healed possessed/corrupted enemies who still had good within them, but killed enemies who were thoroughly evil, with the exact same technique.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:33 pm 
Stella
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
MementoNepenthe wrote:
No, she wasn't. She uses "Moon Healing Escalation" as an attack in the anime, as well as a method of healing people on occasion. I mean, she uses "Moon Healing Escalation" against Queen Beryl and she certainly wasn't trying to heal her. One of the nice things about the DiC dub was they distinguished between "Moon Healing Activation" for healing people and "Cosmic Moon Power" for when Sailor Moon was attacking a bad guy.

Actually she was using it to heal him. Kunzite even said that he refused to say refresh implying the intent was to heal. Also I think on Beryl Princess Serenirt she used Moon Healing Escalation to basically put a healing barrier over her.

However I will say this I did like that the DiC dub used Cosmic Moon Power as a way for her to use the Moon Stick offensively. It is a shame this wasn't done in the original.


I don't think Kunzite saying he refused to say "Refresh!" meant Sailor Moon was trying to heal him or that he thought she was trying to heal him; rather, he was just saying he refused to be defeated by her. If Sailor Moon were trying to heal him, her dialog would have suggested that, but her dialog makes it very clear that she's angry and wants to destroy him. Besides that, there's no reason for her to think he's anything other than a monster/pure evil, so why would she be trying to heal him in the first place?

She acted like she wanted to defeat him but Kunzite's dialogue seems to indicate that she was trying to heal him. Also she also tried to I think heal Minotauron in R even though there was no indication that she was anything other then a monster so she was probably try to do the same with Kunzite. Also Kunzite is not a monster anyway.

Sabrblade wrote:
At the end of the day, wouldn't it just be easier to think of "Moon Healing Escalation" as a purification attack that destroys the evil forces within an enemy, and that those who are so irredeemably evil (eg. - Beryl, Metalia, Kunzite) are completely beyond healing, making the attack fatal to those who have no humanity left within them?

It would honestly explain how Sailor Moon both healed possessed/corrupted enemies who still had good within them, but killed enemies who were thoroughly evil, with the exact same technique.

Well as for Kunzite I still think he has some humanity left in him which is why he stated he refused to say refresh now Beryl by the end when Queen Metalia empowered her was definitely over the edge. I also think that the main reason he refused to say refresh was because he wanted vengeance for Zoisite.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:26 pm 
Galaxias
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MariaTenebre wrote:
Also Kunzite is not a monster anyway.
Not in the Youma sense, yes, but there were several times in the show, both before and after Zoisite's death, where he took pleasure in his attempts to murder the Sailor Senshi. That's in and of itself is pretty monstrous in a detestable sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:15 am 
Stella
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Sabrblade wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
Also Kunzite is not a monster anyway.
Not in the Youma sense, yes, but there were several times in the show, both before and after Zoisite's death, where he took pleasure in his attempts to murder the Sailor Senshi. That's in and of itself is pretty monstrous in a detestable sense.

Well many of the villains including the ones who were redeemed showed pleasure in trying to murder the Senshi and doing detestable things that is what a villain does. The 4 Ayakashi Sisters were redeemed even though in the case of Petz and Calaveras basically told Berthier she was disowned for failing and encouraged her to basically commit suicide. Queen Nehellenia tried to kill a child and pulled a Elizabeth Bathory with her own people. I don't see how Kunzite is any less likely to be redeemed then they were.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:13 am 
Galaxias
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MariaTenebre wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
Also Kunzite is not a monster anyway.
Not in the Youma sense, yes, but there were several times in the show, both before and after Zoisite's death, where he took pleasure in his attempts to murder the Sailor Senshi. That's in and of itself is pretty monstrous in a detestable sense.

Well many of the villains including the ones who were redeemed showed pleasure in trying to murder the Senshi and doing detestable things that is what a villain does. The 4 Ayakashi Sisters were redeemed even though in the case of Petz and Calaveras basically told Berthier she was disowned for failing and encouraged her to basically commit suicide. Queen Nehellenia tried to kill a child and pulled a Elizabeth Bathory with her own people. I don't see how Kunzite is any less likely to be redeemed then they were.
True, though, one could still say that several of those redeemed villains used to be monsters before they reformed. After all, even though Prince Demand got the chance to do something good before he died, he still committed (or attempted to commit) genocide beforehand.

The only real difference between those reformed villains and Kunzite is that he didn't go down the same path to redemption that the others did (though, whether that was by choice or by missed opportunity, we can only speculate and may never know for full official certainty).

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:00 pm 
Solaris Luna
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^ I think you hit the mark, Sabrblade. Kunzite didn't choose to get redeemed.

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 Post subject: Re: Was Usagi trying to heal Kunzite before he died?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:50 am 
Luna Crescens
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It wasn't Kunzite's choice though, none of the healed enemies including Endymion were given a choice that was a new element introduced with the Black Moon clan probably their backstory included rejecting Serenity.

In my opinion it's also very obvious Sailor Moon was going to heal Kunzite, because her powers didn't kill him, he was killed by his own attack when she deflected it, there would have been no need to include that part if Moon Healing Escalation was supposed to be a deadly attack.

Beryl wasn't killed by Moon Healing Escalation either, it was used as a barrier to block Beryl's attacks, she was killed when Sailor Moon released the full power of the crystal which was meant to be a different thing, it had a different attack phrase and was animated as a pink ball of death which was new.

The final battle against Endymion is also evidence that Moon Healing Escalation is purely a healing attack because it failed and had no effect at all on him, if it also actively destroyed pure evil it should still have affected him to some degree.
When Sailor Moon found the resolve to kill him she didn't use MHE again, she used Moon Tiara Action instead, the one attack that was always deadly up to that point. I think the intent of the writers was to make a distinction between MHE = healing and MTA = killing.


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