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How's thing?
Both are lesbians. 61%  61%  [ 70 ]
Michiru is bisexual. 31%  31%  [ 36 ]
Haruka is bisexual. 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
They're both bisexuals. 6%  6%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 114
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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:00 pm 
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QueenNepy wrote:
I hate reading fanfiction that put Michiru with men when it explicitly says she could live without them.

Being "able to live without them" doesn't mean you couldn't have some fun with them. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:21 pm 
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Usapon wrote:
QueenNepy wrote:
I hate reading fanfiction that put Michiru with men when it explicitly says she could live without them.

Being "able to live without them" doesn't mean you couldn't have some fun with them. :P

Yeah, it just means it's optional to her. lol

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:41 pm 
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Usapon wrote:
QueenNepy wrote:
I hate reading fanfiction that put Michiru with men when it explicitly says she could live without them.

Being "able to live without them" doesn't mean you couldn't have some fun with them. :P

Yeah, it just means it's optional to her. lol


I don't know, man. My butch lesbian friend says this all the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:24 am 
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QueenNepy wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Usapon wrote:
Being "able to live without them" doesn't mean you couldn't have some fun with them. :P

Yeah, it just means it's optional to her. lol


I don't know, man. My butch lesbian friend says this all the time.

Maybe she's actually a bi but loves women more? lol

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:32 pm 
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QueenNepy wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Usapon wrote:
Being "able to live without them" doesn't mean you couldn't have some fun with them. :P

Yeah, it just means it's optional to her. lol


I don't know, man. My butch lesbian friend says this all the time.

Then it depends entirely on what the sayer really means with it (as it looks like the words by themselves aren't all that self-explanatory). And we don't know Michiru's intentions, now do we?

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:27 pm 
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from what i read somewhere haruka has a crush on mamoru and michiru was flirting with mamoru and asked mamoru to dance with her in episode 108 so they both could possibly be bisexual.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:08 pm 
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charmecia5 wrote:
from what i read somewhere haruka has a crush on mamoru and michiru was flirting with mamoru and asked mamoru to dance with her in episode 108 so they both could possibly be bisexual.

Can't recall that, nor have I heard about it. :confused:

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:07 am 
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
charmecia5 wrote:
from what i read somewhere haruka has a crush on mamoru and michiru was flirting with mamoru and asked mamoru to dance with her in episode 108 so they both could possibly be bisexual.

Can't recall that, nor have I heard about it. :confused:

Sounds weird to me too. What's your source?

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Mamo Two-Face wrote:
Why did they even bother making them cousins in the dub? Is incest really okay with them? :roll:

They weren't meant to be lesbians in the dub, but the editing was horrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:21 am 
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Amara and Michelle are cousins in edited and lesbians in uncut! :supercry:


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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:34 am 
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Trami0501 wrote:
Amara and Michelle are cousins in edited and lesbians in uncut! :supercry:

As the resident Usagi-bot here has been broken lately, are you trying to fill her place? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:09 pm 
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
I've heard that they're actually cousins, hence there's no such thing as whether they're les or bi...

Trololololol :tongue:

Naoko-san said they're a lesbian couple in an interview :) The IshiYoshi of anime :love:


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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:10 am 
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Ah discussions about sex and gender... some of my favorite topics!

Sexuality is a very fluid area. There are people who are attracted to men, to women, to both, to neither. There are people attracted to certain aspects (i.e. masculinity versus femininity). And for some people, their attractions vary from day to day. And there are people who are attracted to people because of who they are, not what they are.

I am a firm believer that people have the right to label themselves. Just because someone may have 'bisexual tendencies' should not mean they are bi. To be heterosexual, in my book, means to find a different gender attractive for the majority of time. That means, a woman may find men attractive 95% of the time, but may also find another woman (or third/bigender/agender individuals) attractive. It could just be that one person that really breaks the mold for them. Someone special. A person that they do not care the gender to.

My sexuality is homoromantic heterosexual. So basically I find men attractive and want to be intimate with them, but do not wish to be physical with them, whereas I prefer to be physical with women. It can cause some tension and unhappiness on everyone's part. :( But that's just how I am!

I can imagine Michiru being bisexual or pansexual (falling in love with Haruka because she's Haruka, not because she's a woman) and Haruka I can see as being a definite lesbian.

By the way, why is it Haruka was drawn kissing Usagi a couple of times, but never drawn kissing Michiru? :( Unless I've not yet stumbled across that part of the manga... it really angers me to see Haruka kissing Usagi. I like her being with Michiru, and seeing poor Usagi feel like a cheating girlfriend breaks my heart...


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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:52 am 
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Well, I will, as usual, have to disagree with everyone... XD .
I actually think Michiru is STTAIGHT, and Haruka is not as gay as one could think :P .
I know that claiming Sailor Neptune to be heterosexual, when she is currently in a lesbian romance, might sound ridiculous and stupid, but let me explain it.
Haruka is female, she has a vagina, BUT her psychological structure and physical appearance respond to that of a male. She looks and acts like a man, not like a woman.
All character in series perceive her as a masculine being, even some of the girls (Usagi, Minako and Makoto) felt attraction towards Haruka, for her look and personality.
The girls wanted to have an affaire (kind of :P ) with her, but desisted once they found out she was a woman, Michiru didn't.
Sure
In the anime, Michiru had shown some type of romantic flirting with only two characters: Haruka and Seiya, both of them look & act as males and their behaviour shows zero feminine aspects; even though none of them is "really" a guy, they look, act and are perceived as such.
So Michiru is a very delicate, feminine girl, who fell in love with someone that looks and behaves like the typical car-loving, athletic serious dude, AND happens to have a vagina... does that make her lesbian? I think not.
Haruka's genitals are only a part of her being, and together with her breasts, they represent the ONLY feminine part of her, since I consider her essence to be, almost completely, masculine.
Genitalia is only one of the many aspects that build one person's sexual identity, and is not the only matter to consider.
Whether Haruka identifies herself as male or female, her attitude and physical image corresponds with males, and Michiru fell in love of that.
When you feel attraction towards someone, is usually NEVER only about that persons reproductive organs, but more about appearance, personality, and many other things.
Soooooooo, Neptune meets someone, who looks and acts as male, but turns out to be female. She is ok with the situation and still advances Haruka, does that mean she is homosexual and should be considered as lesbian? I really don't think so.
I don't think one single relation defines the complete sexuality of an individual. I think Michiru feels attraction to males in general terms, and particularly loves Haruka.
Then, considering my ideas: Michiru=feminine, Haruka=masculine ... aaaaaaaassaand:
Masculine + feminine = heterosexual relationship.
I apply this same analysis for Haruka. She isn't transexual, since she is ok with her body, but she is almost one in my opinion.
She looks like a guy, she acts like a guy, everything in her is masculine except for her body.
I see her essence as masculine, she is not just a lesbian girl, who happens to be a little tough, or butch-like, she is REALLY like a dude.
And with that in mind, I come again with the same equation:
Masculine + Feminine = Heterosexual.
Haruka is a more complex case because she apparently doesn't care at all about labels and is harder to classify, but I can't really see her as being THAT much of a lesbian, since I consider that her psychological structure is that of a straight male, rather than a gay female.
It has to remain clear that I base my assumptions and theories ONLY in their anime incarnations.
All in all, sexuality isn't a "black or white" thing at all, it is immensely diverse and complex, so even though we could speak about generalities, each individual represents a very particular and unique case.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:58 am 
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Okay.

For the LAST TIME:

Michiru DID flirt with Seiya, yes. This is true. HOWEVER, the point that SO many people miss, is the fact that Michiru was trying to get closer to Seiya in order to find out more about the Starlights and their motives. What do most of the pretty James Bond girls do before they screw Bond over? They seduce him to find out more information.

But it seems that there are many people in the fandom who saw that one little scene and shriek "OMG SHE'S NOT REALLY A LESBIAN!"

Sorry. Fail. Try again.

Naoko Takeuchi has stated HERSELF that Haruka and Michiru are both flat-out lesbian.

One concept that a lot of people seem to fail to grasp, is that there are many different 'types' of gay guys and/or lesbians.

I, for one, happen to be a gay man. A lot of people seem to view me as being "foofy" and feminine. Do I see myself like this? No. I see myself as just...being me. I don't wear dresses. I don't prance about singing Disney songs. But neither do I obsess over sports or work on cars, or any of the typical masculine things some guys do. I do my grocery shopping. I pay my bills. I like Mountain Dew and WoW. I love my anime. I have long hair and my facial features are rather feminine looking, but aside from the hair, I can't do anything about my looks. I forget about my laundry every so often. I don't shower and pepper myself with cologne every 15 minutes or dress in haute couture. I'm a t-shirt and jeans type gay guy. I'm interested in Mario games and Resident Evil. I don't screech bloody murder at the sight of an ant.

Some gay guys are all about flaunting it in other peoples' faces and farting rainbows every which way. Some guys, like me, are out, but they don't flaunt it. I'm sure it's the same with lesbians. Others, still, are very deeply closeted.

Haruka and Michiru both appear to present opposite sides of a very wide spectrum. Haruka is a masculine ("Butch") lesbian. Michiru is a feminine ("Femme") lesbian. (I believe they call them "lipstick lesbians". If I'm incorrect, my bad.)

One aspect I enjoy about Haruka and Michiru's relationship, is the fact that they are so god☹ed stable and very much in a deeply committed and mature relationship. You don't see them running around and having fling after fling or being paranoid about each other and fighting with each other all the time.

Haruka is a terrible flirt, and Michiru has a bit of a jealous streak. For those of you who have no clue what I'm referring to need to watch the SuperS specials. I flirt too, but it doesn't mean that I'm any less committed to my own boyfriend of 10 years. (My first and only, btw!)

So to the poster above me:

Does this mean that even if I WERE super, super feminine, that my boyfriend might actually be straight?

Because that's essentially exactly what you're saying. If I were incredibly girly, then it must obviously mean that my boyfriend is actually straight and that he just "happened" to fall in love with another guy...because he acts and looks like a girl? If that actually were the case, then my boyfriend may as well go and find himself a crossdresser or something.

Dude, even if Haruka WERE more feminine then Michiru was, I'm 100% sure they would still be together. (Although the mental image of Haruka flitting about in a giant poofy dress singing songs to the birds and tying bows on baskets....is a rather hilarious image.)

Sorry, previous poster, but your theory holds no water. Try again.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:17 am 
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C-17 wrote:
Well, I will, as usual, have to disagree with everyone... XD .
I actually think Michiru is STTAIGHT, and Haruka is not as gay as one could think :P .
I know that claiming Sailor Neptune to be heterosexual, when she is currently in a lesbian romance, might sound ridiculous and stupid, but let me explain it.
Haruka is female, she has a vagina, BUT her psychological structure and physical appearance respond to that of a male. She looks and acts like a man, not like a woman.
All character in series perceive her as a masculine being, even some of the girls (Usagi, Minako and Makoto) felt attraction towards Haruka, for her look and personality.
The girls wanted to have an affaire (kind of :P ) with her, but desisted once they found out she was a woman, Michiru didn't.
Sure
In the anime, Michiru had shown some type of romantic flirting with only two characters: Haruka and Seiya, both of them look & act as males and their behaviour shows zero feminine aspects; even though none of them is "really" a guy, they look, act and are perceived as such.
So Michiru is a very delicate, feminine girl, who fell in love with someone that looks and behaves like the typical car-loving, athletic serious dude, AND happens to have a vagina... does that make her lesbian? I think not.
Haruka's genitals are only a part of her being, and together with her breasts, they represent the ONLY feminine part of her, since I consider her essence to be, almost completely, masculine.
Genitalia is only one of the many aspects that build one person's sexual identity, and is not the only matter to consider.
Whether Haruka identifies herself as male or female, her attitude and physical image corresponds with males, and Michiru fell in love of that.
When you feel attraction towards someone, is usually NEVER only about that persons reproductive organs, but more about appearance, personality, and many other things.
Soooooooo, Neptune meets someone, who looks and acts as male, but turns out to be female. She is ok with the situation and still advances Haruka, does that mean she is homosexual and should be considered as lesbian? I really don't think so.
I don't think one single relation defines the complete sexuality of an individual. I think Michiru feels attraction to males in general terms, and particularly loves Haruka.
Then, considering my ideas: Michiru=feminine, Haruka=masculine ... aaaaaaaassaand:
Masculine + feminine = heterosexual relationship.
I apply this same analysis for Haruka. She isn't transexual, since she is ok with her body, but she is almost one in my opinion.
She looks like a guy, she acts like a guy, everything in her is masculine except for her body.
I see her essence as masculine, she is not just a lesbian girl, who happens to be a little tough, or butch-like, she is REALLY like a dude.
And with that in mind, I come again with the same equation:
Masculine + Feminine = Heterosexual.
Haruka is a more complex case because she apparently doesn't care at all about labels and is harder to classify, but I can't really see her as being THAT much of a lesbian, since I consider that her psychological structure is that of a straight male, rather than a gay female.
It has to remain clear that I base my assumptions and theories ONLY in their anime incarnations.
All in all, sexuality isn't a "black or white" thing at all, it is immensely diverse and complex, so even though we could speak about generalities, each individual represents a very particular and unique case.


:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

Frist Masculine + Feminine = Heterosexual IS WRONG. by your so called logic i must be a lesbian because i think slight feminine guys like Zoisite are cute. see how dumb that sounded.

both Male and Females have different levels for Masculine and Feminine. and any of them can be any oration.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:28 am 
Luna Crescens
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SmallLadySerenity:
It seems to me that you got outraged/angry/upset by my previous post, ONLY because my opinions differ from yours, which I find weird.
I see no "failure" to which I'd have "try again" with in my previous post, since I'm not trying to prove myself to have the ultimate truth, nor I'm trying to prove anyone wrong.
I have merely said what I think regarding Haruka and Michiru's sexuality, in the anime, that's really it. If you think that my thoughts on the couple were stupid/ridiculous/idiotic/whatever, that's FINE, I still don't think that's a reason to get mad at me, but if you are, it's actually ok as well.
Since I have said that I focused only on Haruka and Michiru's animated incarnations, which are based on Naoko's design and basic structure but are not carbon copies of their manga counterparts, I don't see any of my ideas as invalid considering what Takeuchi said.
During the series, it is NEVER explicitly stated what the actual sexual orientation of Haruka and Michiru is, none of them said "I am gay/straight/bi", the only thing we know about them is that they are APPARENTLY (because this is actually never stated in all clearness either, they never kiss or openly say: "we are in a romantic affaire", we ASSUME they are a couple, but we don't even know for sure - just because something might seem obvious, doesn't mean is exactly what it seems to be-), a couple, that's it.
Michiru's intentions to flirt with Seiya are not explicitly revealed either, that "seductive bond girl" theory is entirely up to you. A theory that I RESPECT, by the way, but do not share, however.
I think that Michiru flirted with Seiya out for fun, not cause she loved him or anything like that.
Why do I assume she considers Seiya to be attractive? well, flirting usually happens when the persons involved have a sort of sexual tension or feel at least some kind of attraction for each other; that is, once again, MY opinion and MY personal interpretation of that scene, I am only sharing my ideas here for fun's sake, I'm not, by any means, trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm just saying what I think, period.
Regarding my ideas on sexuality, I base them not in what doctors/books/society say, but more in my personal experiences, feelings and thoughts.
If you think everything I have wrote is stupid and makes no sense, it's fine, you are absolutely free to disagree with me and to express your views on my theories, this a discussion board after all, and I have never intended to be awarded by my ideas, I only shared them here, because I thought it was an interesting thread.
Sailor Swifty:
As I have said above, I have developed my own theories about sexuality based on what I actually seen, lived, perceived, experienced during my life, I am absolutely consent that nothing in my previous post applies to a wikipedia definition of heterosexuality. It was never my intention to do so either, I never tried to "illuminate other with my immense wisdom, writing the absolute truth about sex", I only said what I think (I know it gets annoying that I'm constantly repeating "I just said what I think" but I want to make emphasis on this because you guys seemed to got irritated by my opinions, which I find hard to understand... XD ).
Sure, my ideas sound weird but I don't think they're "dumb", we all have our ways to analyse and interpret the human mind, I exposed some of my personal views regarding sexuality, that's it, I don't think it's a big deal :P .
You guys obviously perceive as "wrong" and consider my ideas to be really stupid, and it's ok, I understand and respect your opinions. And don't worry, you won't be annoyed by any of my post in the future... XD
PS: sorry if this post contains too many typos, I'm posting with a cellphone, and the keyboard is super annoying and hard to write with :P

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:44 am 
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C-17 wrote:
SmallLadySerenity:
It seems to me that you got outraged/angry/upset by my previous post, ONLY because my opinions differ from yours, which I find weird.
I see no "failure" to which I'd have "try again" with in my previous post, since I'm not trying to prove myself to have the ultimate truth, nor I'm trying to prove anyone wrong.
I have merely said what I think regarding Haruka and Michiru's sexuality, in the anime, that's really it. If you think that my thoughts on the couple were stupid/ridiculous/idiotic/whatever, that's FINE, I still don't think that's a reason to get mad at me, but if you are, it's actually ok as well.
Since I have said that I focused only on Haruka and Michiru's animated incarnations, which are based on Naoko's design and basic structure but are not carbon copies of their manga counterparts, I don't see any of my ideas as invalid considering what Takeuchi said.
During the series, it is NEVER explicitly stated what the actual sexual orientation of Haruka and Michiru is, none of them said "I am gay/straight/bi", the only thing we know about them is that they are APPARENTLY (because this is actually never stated in all clearness either, they never kiss or openly say: "we are in a romantic affaire", we ASSUME they are a couple, but we don't even know for sure - just because something might seem obvious, doesn't mean is exactly what it seems to be-), a couple, that's it.
Michiru's intentions to flirt with Seiya are not explicitly revealed either, that "seductive bond girl" theory is entirely up to you. A theory that I RESPECT, by the way, but do not share, however.
I think that Michiru flirted with Seiya out for fun, not cause she loved him or anything like that.
Why do I assume she considers Seiya to be attractive? well, flirting usually happens when the persons involved have a sort of sexual tension or feel at least some kind of attraction for each other; that is, once again, MY opinion and MY personal interpretation of that scene, I am only sharing my ideas here for fun's sake, I'm not, by any means, trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm just saying what I think, period.
Regarding my ideas on sexuality, I base them not in what doctors/books/society say, but more in my personal experiences, feelings and thoughts.
If you think everything I have wrote is stupid and makes no sense, it's fine, you are absolutely free to disagree with me and to express your views on my theories, this a discussion board after all, and I have never intended to be awarded by my ideas, I only shared them here, because I thought it was an interesting thread.
Sailor Swifty:
As I have said above, I have developed my own theories about sexuality based on what I actually seen, lived, perceived, experienced during my life, I am absolutely consent that nothing in my previous post applies to a wikipedia definition of heterosexuality. It was never my intention to do so either, I never tried to "illuminate other with my immense wisdom, writing the absolute truth about sex", I only said what I think (I know it gets annoying that I'm constantly repeating "I just said what I think" but I want to make emphasis on this because you guys seemed to got irritated by my opinions, which I find hard to understand... XD ).
Sure, my ideas sound weird but I don't think they're "dumb", we all have our ways to analyse and interpret the human mind, I exposed some of my personal views regarding sexuality, that's it, I don't think it's a big deal :P .
You guys obviously perceive as "wrong" and consider my ideas to be really stupid, and it's ok, I understand and respect your opinions. And don't worry, you won't be annoyed by any of my post in the future... XD
PS: sorry if this post contains too many typos, I'm posting with a cellphone, and the keyboard is super annoying and hard to write with :P



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Actually, I'm not "outraged/angry/upset".

It's all well and good that you have headcanon or whatever it is they call it. The problem is that you're wrong. As I stated earlier, you're basically saying that if I were super feminine, then it essentially means that my boyfriend is actually straight and that I just "happened" to have a male body.

I don't consider your ideas regarding human sexuality as dumb or weird. I'm telling you, you're wrong. Naoko has gone on record saying that Haruka and Michiru are both lesbians. Besides, there's another little problem with your theory: Seiya is actually a female. In the anime, the Starlights took male bodies in order to have a higher chance of finding their princess. Honestly? I tend to believe that as a female, Seiya might actually have been a lesbian herself, seeing as how there are a few occassions where she sees Usagi's image superimposed over that of her princess.

So basically she's projecting her feelings onto Usagi.

Plus, there's the MULTIPLE occasions where one actually does see Haruka and Michiru's love for each other. They don't have to state it every 15 minutes. They don't need to make out every other hour. It's the way they look at each other, the way they hold each other.

- In one of the final episodes of 'S', Michiru holds Haruka's hand in a helicopter.

- The witty banter between Haruka and Michiru in MULTIPLE episodes in which Michiru lightly teases Haruka or makes fun of her, as I and my boyfriend might tease or make fun of one another.

- Let's see, how about the episode in which Galaxia takes their bracelets away from them, and as they die, they both struggle with every bit of their fading energy to just touch each other once more. As they finally manage to lock hands, they find a sense of peace.


There are many, many instances in the anime series itself, but hey, if you want to fool yourself into believing otherwise, feel free. You may as well watch the English dub in which they're pretty much incestuous kissin' cousins.

But yes, you really are saying that just because Haruka is super butch, Michiru sees her as a man or whatever, and because of that, she's essentially straight. And that just because Seiya "happens" to take the form of a man on Earth, it means that Michiru is actually attracted to men?

And again, that's like saying to me that if I were a super feminine gay guy, it means that my boyfriend might see me as a "woman", and is essentially straight and that I just "happened" to have a male body.

Another thing that I noticed that you seem to be implying in your post, is that none of the characters are actually in relationships....unless we actually see them make out on-screen, or pepper their conversations with how much they love each other, right?

Take it from me, dear, a light touch on the shoulders, or the look in your loved ones eyes, a quick kiss to the forehead...all these actions speak for themselves. Did you even notice the way Michiru and Haruka looked at each other, or the way they leaned against each other once the battle was over?

And yes, I of all people, AM aware that human sexuality is NOT everything that society says it is. I have had married and/or (supposedly) straight guys come on to me and many times, it's a genuine surprise, because it's not something I ever would have thought them interested in.

Heck, I'm sure that on youtube alone, there are people who have probably put clipshows together filled to the brim with little sweet Haruka and Michiru moments.

I realize that I probably sound like I'm frothing at the mouth here, but Haruka and Michiru are two of my favorite characters ever, and okay, yeah, it annoys me a little that someone could actually sit there, watch all 5 seasons, the 3 movies, all the specials, the musicals....and then say that basically their relationship "isn't real", that it's "invalid, because Michiru is theoretically straight because she sees Haruka as a man"?

To me, as a gay guy, it sort of seems a bit like a slap to the face, "Oh hey, your man? Yeah, he just sees you as a chick, so it's no big deal. Just means he's actually straight, is all." Well, then. Guess I should go buy some of those pretty pink dresses in the store window down the street, you know. Start investing in lingerie and visiting hair salons, right? Maybe a pretty purple handbag, too, right?

Look, I respect that you have certain views on human sexuality, and that's great. It really is. Means people are really starting to think about what it means.

But Haruka and Michiru? No. They're with each other. Anime. Manga. Musicals.

Canon (and the author herself) says so.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:09 pm 
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So we have reached the super-long posts and un-edited quotes now. :P

C-17 wrote:
Haruka is female, she has a vagina, BUT her psychological structure and physical appearance respond to that of a male. She looks and acts like a man, not like a woman.

[...]

Well, questioning Haruka's gender identity is a bit new to me (not to this fandom tho). I've always thought of Haruka as a very feminine girl but in a very different way from Michiru. I can't really find any ways to describe this feeling rationally, since she does wear a lot of "man-clothes" (in the anime)(!) and her symbolism tends to be kind of androgynous, but I do think that Haruka identifies as a woman and that other girls identify her as a woman, too. It was just a comic relief that the girls mistook her for a guy because of her looks and masculine outfit and the kind of "masculine aura" she probably gives off, but I don't see why a "masculine" woman couldn't still be feminine. (TBH I feel "masculine" in the same way because I think like a guy (OR SOMETHING IDFK) even though I dress like a woman and wear red lipstick.)

C-17 wrote:
Then, considering my ideas: Michiru=feminine, Haruka=masculine ... aaaaaaaassaand:
Masculine + feminine = heterosexual relationship.

Now now, I really do have to disagree with this. :P I believe that a homosexual (or heterosexual or ANY-SEXUAL) relationship isn't really about who's "feminine" and who's "masculine" or are they both or are they either and whatnot. The term "homosexual relationship" is a label slapped on couples who are of the same biological gender (OFC you can keep broadening and twisting the concept of gender but for clarity reasons I won't do it now). It doesn't really matter who represents a certain gender or whatever, no, I don't think so at all.

SmallLadySerenity wrote:
Some gay guys are all about flaunting it in other peoples' faces and farting rainbows every which way. Some guys, like me, are out, but they don't flaunt it. I'm sure it's the same with lesbians. Others, still, are very deeply closeted.

XD Pretty much. That's my case, too. (Sometimes it seems like people just "sense off" my orientation and I never told them anything and sometimes when I happen to say something that would give me away everybody acts like I've said something really weird. :grey: )

Quote:
Haruka and Michiru both appear to present opposite sides of a very wide spectrum. Haruka is a masculine ("Butch") lesbian. Michiru is a feminine ("Femme") lesbian. (I believe they call them "lipstick lesbians". If I'm incorrect, my bad.)

Yeah, I suppose "femme" is starting to be a bit old-fashioned term, but I like it and I'm going to keep using it. :o

I'm still a bit uncomfortable with thinking Haruka as a butch, tho. In the anime it's easier, but her manga self is different and mixing them up makes for extreme confusion. XD

C-17 wrote:
I think that Michiru flirted with Seiya out for fun, not cause she loved him or anything like that.
Why do I assume she considers Seiya to be attractive? well, flirting usually happens when the persons involved have a sort of sexual tension or feel at least some kind of attraction for each other; that is, once again, MY opinion and MY personal interpretation of that scene, I am only sharing my ideas here for fun's sake, I'm not, by any means, trying to prove anyone wrong, I'm just saying what I think, period.

It could also well be that Michiru just wanted to toy around with Seiya for no real personal/sexual reason behind it. :P She seems like the kind of girl to do that.

C-17 wrote:
Regarding my ideas on sexuality, I base them not in what doctors/books/society say, but more in my personal experiences, feelings and thoughts.

What exactly you mean by this? (Just curious.) Do you mean that medical research and society have given you the theory of biological body being simply a container for the complex human mind (and that way sexuality) or do you mean something else?

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:50 am 
Columnae Creationis
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Usapon wrote:
but I don't see why a "masculine" woman couldn't still be feminine.

Incidentally there's a good example of that in a post I made here lately: :)

viewtopic.php?p=642290#p642290

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:18 pm 
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Well, I had no intentions on posting again on this thread, because I thought my involvement in it wouldn't lead to any positive place.
But, since I am aware that my initial post contained a lot of weird, seemingly incoherent concepts, I'll give a further explanation to complete the idea, and provide a clearer view on my thoughts.
Since I was born (yes, this is gonna be long XD ), I have been constantly mistaken as female. When I was 5, I was climbing on a tree, when a random guy came and basically, took me down the tree by saying: "such a pretty girl shouldn't be climbing trees, you may fall and hurt yourself". Even though I couldn't say such things happened on a daily basis, they did occur quite frequently.
During all my childhood and teenage years, people confused me for a girl, every now and then. I was honestly annoyed by that fact, but there was very little I could do about it: I used to wear my hair VERY short, wore only sport outfits, or jeans and Dragon Ball t-shirts, and still I'd eventually find someone to perceive my gender wrong.
Since a very early age as well, other males shown, whether sexual, or romantic interest in me.
I was advanced by men from all types, that were unmistakably masculine. Very though manly guys.
At first I did not thought at all about this guys' sexuality, because:
a) I generally rejected them.
b) I was a freaking child, I did not cared about such things back then :P
When I became a teenager, I did had a theory about such apparently "straight men" who, despite of their "heterosexual" orientation, were looking for a physical involvement with me. I thought that all of them were closet gay/bisexual men, who could felt a morbid appeal towards my innocent/delicate look. I thought of them as, almost perverted guys, moved only by lust (yes, quite a cold analysis, but I was a cynic ☹ back then XD ).
Regarding my own sexuality, I already identified myself as "gay", but I still felt awkward about myself for some reason. I felt weird and different, and I couldn't tell why. I was only sure about one thing: it had nothing to do with my attraction towards guys, I was perfectly ok with that.
As I wrote, some guys felt physical/sexual attraction for me, but they always shown such interest, ONLY, when no one else was around. They always reached for me when we were completely alone.
Once again, since I rejected most of them, I didn't cared about it at all, and I thought they were just scared of being "discovered" on their homosexual tendencies and that was it.
So when I was 18, my views on sexuality were very standard:
Straight
Bi
Gay
Period :P
I used to label people in my mind with those very clear and simple concepts, and I was ok with it. But I still felt weird.
My personality at that time was feminine, but I refused to accept it. I was constantly trying to repress all female aspects of my persona, both physical and psychological.
Why? well, because I had this idea that: "males are males, and females are females, whether I'm gay or not, that has nothing to do with my gender". I was very dogmatic and strict about it.
Whenever I took a picture of myself and look "kinda" masculine, I felt satisfied, cause I wanted to be "normal" and "match" my gender as much as I could.
When I turned 19, however, things changes dramatically.
My physical appearance was considerably more feminine than before, and other males reactions to me were different as well. Suddenly I was being complimented on the streets, on the internet and even advanced by other guys in public.
That confused the hell out of me, because I didn't understood what was going on, since this time it wasn't only about a physical connection: some guys were showing evident signs of romantic interest.
I was sort of freaked out, were all those guys homosexuals? the answer I gave myself to, was: yes, they are all closet gays, period.
This change was perceived by other people as well: my family and friends started noticing how other guys reacted when I was around, and perceived the difference (I even remember the notorious annoyance of my best friend when a -straight- guy came and started flirting with me, she started yelling -in front of him- "he is speaking to you as if you were a woman, he needs to understand that you are not a woman!" ... XD , it was hilarious).
I gave a totally rational explanation to that fact anyways: homosexuality isn't all about sex, gay love exists after all and about those guys... some gays are feminine, some are more masculine. That was really it for me, nothing particularly weird.
I should add some information about my image at that time: I stopped cutting my hair at 18, so it was kinda long at that point, and I also started wearing, every now and then, black eyeliner. Even though I was still reluctant to my female side, I felt more comfortable this way and I thought it was ok to wear eyeliner as long as it wasn't too girlie.
My ideas regarding sexuality were kinda the same: straight, gay, bi, trans, period.
By my 20's people started to confuse my gender through new ways: my voice (EVERY single time I used my phone for a delivery, or whatever thing, they always replied "yes madam" ... XD ), and my personality (on the internet, when people couldn't even see, or hear me, they took me for a girl). By then, I decided not to really stress anymore, I thought that: "ok, I'm a guy, but I'm also very feminine and that's ok, I'll just be myself and I'll let it flow" :P .
Put it like that, it sounds simple, but it really took me... well, all those years to accept myself in the way I really was, it was very hard, introspective process.
So when I turned 21, I had really no conflicts with my identity, whether on regards of my sexuality, or my gender. I was just fine, and my ideas on sexuality were the same as well.
I was a guy, who liked guys. If any guy showed interest in me, it meant he was gay/bi. As simple as that.
When I returned to school to finish my studies, reality confronted my perceptions anyways. All males surrounding me changed, radically, their attitude towards me: nobody gave a ☹ about keeping any attraction in secret, I received DAILY flattering comments while walking on the streets (and it wasn't mockery, those were genuine expressions of desire), and my male classmates did not treated me as an equal anymore. They were more gentle, nicer, tried to be funnier and also "tougher" whenever I was around. I saw them blush and become nervous when I talked to them for whatever reason, I saw them celebrate every single stupid thing I did (even when it wasn't funny at all). Their infatuation was extremely evident, none of them put any effort in hiding their interest. And it wasn't only in the school: it was on the streets, on the train, on the bus, on the shows I attended. Everywere I was, I could almost physically feel the weight of their staring. And they didn't even left much space to speculation since, this time they said it clearly, in front of everyone.
All those people, were straight guys. Masculine, tough, kinda rude, basic and simple straight guys.
The kind of guys who approached me when I was younger, were also "straight", but they were in many cases, guys related to art, and therefore more inclined to have a naturally "curious" mind :P .
The guys approaching me this time were very different though. Most of them had very few things in their minds: football, cars, rock & roll, and girls. They were as straight as can be.
As you can see, that situation did not fit in my: "male who lusts male= homo" equation, but I made it fit anyways :P
I thought: "ok, the compliments on the streets are confusing, but some of them might really think I'm a girl since they don't know me, all the other ones are certainly closet gay though, I'm a dude after all".
That's what I thought initially, but the thing is, with months, some of my class mates (and even teachers :P ) were STILL showing feelings for me, even though everyone knew I was male (so they couldn't argue any type of confusion).
They were absolutely consent of my gender, yet they still had romantic interest in me. No matter how many times I said my name, some of them even referred to me in feminine ways (in spanish, words usually have a "gender", they tended to use female words for me), and is not like they did it to mock at me (well, when I pissed them off they did, but it was a friendly thing XD ), they simply forgot, at times, that I was male. I came to the conclusion that even though they knew I was (and considered myself) a man, they couldn't really see me as one. In most people's head, I was female, cause that is what they perceived from me.
Of course I thought they still gay, but were denying the truth so they shouldn't face their queer tendencies XD .
With time, this situation got intensified and I thought the entire world was completely mad, UNTIL I started thinking about it.
Maybe is not "the rest" denying the truth, but it's actually me the one who can't accept some issues.
Last year, I attended a Lady GaGa concert in Buenos Aires (YES, I LOVE GAGA, DEAL WITH IT... XD ) and, for the very first time in my life, I was surrounded by, almost exclusively, gay people. It was REALLY like gay pride parade.
And there, among thousands of gay males, I noticed some stuff.
First of all: NO ONE paid attention to me... HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! I know this sounds SO egocentric, but whenever I go attend a concert (usually metal concerts, since that's the genre I listen to the most), guys are always looking, and flirting at me, but in there... it was like I didn't existed :P
The only lusty stares I felt were from the security guys, but once I entered the stadium I was practically invisible: girls don't usually look at me, and this time, guys either. You may think that, considering I'm a gay male, I should be more accepted (in terms of physical attraction) among gay dudes... well, not really :P .
Then I started analysing their gestures, their voices, their behaviour... I had nothing in common with them.
I was supposed to feel "at home" surrounded by gay guys, but I didn't. I felt different and weird. Even they didn't considered me as an equal since some thought I was actually a girl (three in the crowd were referring to me as "Helena Bonham Carter", some hours later, a fourth one came and told them I was actually a guy, they were speaking about me as if I couldn't tell, but I totally could... XD).
So... maybe "the others" were not as wrong after all. Maybe I am kind of a girl.
I have always accepted my homosexual condition and my given gender, but the truth is I have always the psychological structure of a female. I have always acted and looked like a girl, not like a guy (don't even a "gay" guy, just like a girl).
Gay guys don't look at me, straight boys do, lesbian girls do, but gay guys, just don't. And that's because homosexual people, like people of their same gender; and they don't really consider me as someone who has their same gender.
Is just the way I am, my body is masculine, but my mind is feminine, I can't help it. Is not like... I'm more feminine that most guys, no. I am REALLY like a girl. Almost like a transexual, but I'm actually ok with my body and my gender that would be the only difference.
And if being completely honest, I don't think most of the guys in my past were gay at all. None of them showed any interest in any other male beside me, they date on girls, and are as straight as they come. They longed for me because they perceived me as female, they were attracted by my femininity, not my gender.
So I basically changed my mind about sexuality, and I'm not that strict anymore. I believe that it varies in every person, and "black or white" extremes are rare cases, most of us are swimming on the gray areas.
I believe that each individual has their very own, unique sexuality, but then again, that's just my opinion.
Nooooooooooooooooooow, that I have SORT OF explained WHY I could ever possibly think that:
mascuilne and feminine CAN represent an heterosexual kind of union, I'll stop it with my life, and I'll focus on Haruka and Michiru.
I have always seen them as a lesbian couple, which I thought was amazing. I was proud that such characters existed, and they were my favorite senshi, together with Rei.
When I read this thread, however, I thought: "If XXX (I won't say his name :P ) loves me, and he is heterosexual, why couldn't Michiru, in general terms, be straight as well?". I thought about it as a possibility, not because I didn't wanted to see her as a lesbian, Haruka and Michiru's gayness has always been a plus to me, not a negative thing.
Well, I could clarify some more of my concepts, so you could clearly see what I mean without misunderstandings, but I'm really bored already of writing XD .
As I have previously said, these are only MY personal perceptions, I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, nor the claim myself as the holder of any truth.
PS: Forgive again the typos, I'm in a cellphone and I'm falling asleep :P

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:12 pm 
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C-17 wrote:
Since a very early age as well, other males shown, whether sexual, or romantic interest in me.
I was advanced by men from all types, that were unmistakably masculine. Very though manly guys.
At first I did not thought at all about this guys' sexuality, because:
a) I generally rejected them.
b) I was a freaking child, I did not cared about such things back then :P
When I became a teenager, I did had a theory about such apparently "straight men" who, despite of their "heterosexual" orientation, were looking for a physical involvement with me. I thought that all of them were closet gay/bisexual men, who could felt a morbid appeal towards my innocent/delicate look. I thought of them as, almost perverted guys, moved only by lust (yes, quite a cold analysis, but I was a cynic ☹ back then XD ).

There's a theory that some (note, some) people aren't really drawn to gender or bodily things but rather masculinity or femininity or a person's personality, so what you say does make some sense, but I believe that those guys just mistook you for a (pretty) girl and believed you really were a woman biologically (which in itself seems to be enough for some people :P ). So I'm not so sure if it explains that much, after all.

Besides, when you say "very young age" it sounds as though those guys were paedophiles, and while I'm not an expert on that subject I've heard that not many pedos really care about the gender of the child.

Quote:
As I wrote, some guys felt physical/sexual attraction for me, but they always shown such interest, ONLY, when no one else was around. They always reached for me when we were completely alone.

Could well be just shyness.

Quote:
By then, I decided not to really stress anymore, I thought that: "ok, I'm a guy, but I'm also very feminine and that's ok, I'll just be myself and I'll let it flow" :P .

Great that you got to terms with that. ^_^ It can be surprisingly hard to some.

Quote:
When I returned to school to finish my studies, reality confronted my perceptions anyways. All males surrounding me changed, radically, their attitude towards me: nobody gave a ☹ about keeping any attraction in secret, I received DAILY flattering comments while walking on the streets (and it wasn't mockery, those were genuine expressions of desire), and my male classmates did not treated me as an equal anymore. They were more gentle, nicer, tried to be funnier and also "tougher" whenever I was around. I saw them blush and become nervous when I talked to them for whatever reason, I saw them celebrate every single stupid thing I did (even when it wasn't funny at all).

I'm just pausing here to say that I'm super-glad I don't live where you live. XD This makes me feel good about my "stoic" people and the guys that don't get annoyingly fiddly around women. (Sorry everybody :P )

Quote:
That's what I thought initially, but the thing is, with months, some of my class mates (and even teachers :P ) were STILL showing feelings for me, even though everyone knew I was male (so they couldn't argue any type of confusion).
They were absolutely consent of my gender, yet they still had romantic interest in me.

Maybe that's a case of personality (or looks in general, or, as you propose, femininity) being seen as more important and attractive than real, physical gender. (Good, I suppose. Bound to create sexual identity crises, but I suppose that's good, too.)

Quote:
they simply forgot, at times, that I was male. I came to the conclusion that even though they knew I was (and considered myself) a man, they couldn't really see me as one. In most people's head, I was female, cause that is what they perceived from me.

So they might still have thought of you as a girl, physically, which goes back to straight guys being straight guys for people they think are women, biologically. P-:

Quote:
First of all: NO ONE paid attention to me... HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! I know this sounds SO egocentric, but whenever I go attend a concert (usually metal concerts, since that's the genre I listen to the most), guys are always looking, and flirting at me, but in there... it was like I didn't existed :P

That's interesting. Maybe gay guys have seen more people like you and as such you didn't stick out so much? (I don't mean to offend, I'm just speculating ^_^' )

Quote:
Gay guys don't look at me, straight boys do, lesbian girls do, but gay guys, just don't. And that's because homosexual people, like people of their same gender; and they don't really consider me as someone who has their same gender.

Quote:
mascuilne and feminine CAN represent an heterosexual kind of union, I'll stop it with my life, and I'll focus on Haruka and Michiru.

I still don't think it's (generally) about masculinity or femininity. It's possible, I don't know, and I myself have presented the theory that Michiru might be straight and happened to fall in love with a girl (though I believed in that Haruka is perceived as a girl, too). I do think that for most people it is about physical, biological body and how it attracts someone. If someone thinks of you as a girl and they "like girls" (hetero-, bi- and pansexuals + lesbians), I do believe they come to you because they think you have a girl's body. Or well, the body and sex might not be the first, explicit thought in their minds, but generally, this is what I believe.

Quote:
I believe that each individual has their very own, unique sexuality, but then again, that's just my opinion.

That's true. ^_^ It's a good opinion, I think. (If you can call someone's opinion "good". P-: )

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:54 pm 
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I know I should "quote", but:
a) I don't know how to do it :P
b) Not sure if I can do it through the cellphone.
So, about my "early age" and the guys approaching me at that time, yes, some of them probably had pedophilic tendencies, since some were way older than me (20 something, and 30 something, one of them even 40 maybe). I should clarify, however, that none of them had any type of sexual involvement with me anyways, they made their insinuations (not very subtle in some cases) and got obviously rejected.
Since I was a child, I didn't really understood the full meaning of those situations, I do now and yes, I think they were pretty perverted :P
That's why, when thinking about sexuality, I didn't really counted them as examples, because even though all of them were heterosexuals, their interest for me was based on a morbid/perverted inclination, and had little to do with being straight or gay.
I should have also specified that not all the guys approaching me, when I was a kid, were that older, some others were children like me, so it's not like everything was that creepy XD .
Now regarding sexual/romantic attraction (I generally see them as separate things, but in general terms, I can refer to them as a combo), I don't think it is related to ONLY a certain type of personality (whether feminine or masculine) either.
I believe that many things are influencing our minds whenever we feel attracted by other individual. In my opinion:
Beauty (I have noticed that this is the thing that causes the bigger appeal, even if the person is cruel, violent, boring, stupid... if it's considered beautiful, people will still feel a strong attraction).
Gender (since they are born, people are more inclined to feel attraction towards certain aspects, over others; I believe masculinity and femininity are still strongly tied to their "respective" genders -despite my very own case- that's why I do not totally separate such concepts, body features -genitals, breasts, etc- are also influential, of course)
Personality (sadly, this is the thing people cares the less about :P , I say "sadly", because out of the three, this is the only one we are responsible of, and can build upon; the other two, are not really up to us -sure,some people do recur to plastic surgery, and they even change their genders, but most people don't do any of those things, and I'm referring to general terms).
I think that a possible infatuation towards someone else, usually comes as a combination of those three elements, but the influence and importance of each element varies, not only on each individual, but also on every particular relationship.
As I wrote before, I have always, in terms of sexual/romantic interest, felt attracted by, rather masculine, males.
My first love, however, was a girl XD .
I was very young, and I wasn't even corresponded, but god, I was as lovelorn as anyone can be.
I loved her beauty, her personality, her voice, her charisma, EVERYTHING, I used to dream with her :P . I was very, very, VERY in love, I thought I could never love someone like that again.
And even at that time, I felt that I was still absolutely gay. I did not felt straight, or bi, at ANY second, because I knew I didn't felt any attraction towards any other female, it was ONLY her. I was a guy, who loved a girl, but I wasn't straight at all, I was just in love with HER, that was it.
With many of the guys I've mentioned (strangers on the street, buses, bars, etc. are obviously excluded) it was a similar situation: they loved me, but seriously couldn't see them loving ANY other guy, or not being interested in women. They were still the same heterosexual dudes, that fell in love with me, that was really it.
At first I wanted to see them as homosexuals, because I thought "If I am a guy and I'm considered gay for doing this, they HAVE to be considered gay as well, we're doing the same thing after all", but I was just being close minded and I was lying to myself.
I couldn't really see any of them as gay, even if I wanted to. So I don't really think a single experience, or even relationship, can define your entire sexuality.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:19 pm 
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C-17 wrote:
I know I should "quote", but:
a) I don't know how to do it :P

Oh, it's easy, actually. I don't know if your phone loads the page properly, but there's this small "quote"-button at the bottom of each post, in the right corner. Press that and you'll get the post in your usually blank message box. ^_^ You can also select text and use "Quote"-function from the styles above the message body.

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Now regarding sexual/romantic attraction (I generally see them as separate things, but in general terms, I can refer to them as a combo), I don't think it is related to ONLY a certain type of personality (whether feminine or masculine) either.

Yeah, it's easier to double them up here, but oh, tell me about how different they are. XD

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I believe that many things are influencing our minds whenever we feel attracted by other individual. In my opinion:
Beauty (I have noticed that this is the thing that causes the bigger appeal, even if the person is cruel, violent, boring, stupid... if it's considered beautiful, people will still feel a strong attraction).

Sadly enough. :( The first impression is often the one to make the most lasting impression, which makes it hard to override. Personally, I think that people who fail to see the person past his/her face/body are kind of sad and I don't appreciate such a quality in a person. It's OK to say and think "that girl/guy's cute" but if we talk about (for example) a YouTube gaming celeb who made cool let's plays in the past but only got super-popular after streaming with a web camera, showing off his accidentally nice looking face and earning tons of screaming fanboys/girls who only watch the videos now in hopes of seeing his face again. (Sorry, personal frustration about the matter. :grey: )

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Gender (since they are born, people are more inclined to feel attraction towards certain aspects, over others; I believe masculinity and femininity are still strongly tied to their "respective" genders -despite my very own case- that's why I do not totally separate such concepts, body features -genitals, breasts, etc- are also influential, of course)

Yeah. It's interesting, really, to think about "masculine" and "feminine" qualities and how they relate to the male and female body and that way influence human sexuality. Some feminine and masculine features are purely social while some are considered to be part of the body it inhabits.

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Personality (sadly, this is the thing people cares the less about :P , I say "sadly", because out of the three, this is the only one we are responsible of, and can build upon; the other two, are not really up to us -sure,some people do recur to plastic surgery, and they even change their genders, but most people don't do any of those things, and I'm referring to general terms).

That's an interesting point, I've never thought of it that way.

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As I wrote before, I have always, in terms of sexual/romantic interest, felt attracted by, rather masculine, males.
My first love, however, was a girl XD .
I was very young, and I wasn't even corresponded, but god, I was as lovelorn as anyone can be.
I loved her beauty, her personality, her voice, her charisma, EVERYTHING, I used to dream with her :P . I was very, very, VERY in love, I thought I could never love someone like that again.
And even at that time, I felt that I was still absolutely gay. I did not felt straight, or bi, at ANY second, because I knew I didn't felt any attraction towards any other female, it was ONLY her. I was a guy, who loved a girl, but I wasn't straight at all, I was just in love with HER, that was it.

Oh, tell me about it. I still get those "personality crushes" to guys who I think are amazing people, but unless it's very serious I don't even get the physical attraction side of it, even if it commonly follows the feelings.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:51 am 
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C-17 wrote:
My first love, however, was a girl XD .
I was very young, and I wasn't even corresponded, but god, I was as lovelorn as anyone can be.
I loved her beauty, her personality, her voice, her charisma, EVERYTHING, I used to dream with her :P . I was very, very, VERY in love, I thought I could never love someone like that again.
And even at that time, I felt that I was still absolutely gay. I did not felt straight, or bi, at ANY second, because I knew I didn't felt any attraction towards any other female, it was ONLY her. I was a guy, who loved a girl, but I wasn't straight at all, I was just in love with HER, that was it.

Could that be, in effect, a "lesbian" relationship, since you've said you look feminine, & also think & behave femininely? XD

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:24 am 
Luna Crescens
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Usapon:
About beauty: yes, people's reaction to beauty is, at times, frustrating and sad. I have seen, rather cool and nice, girls became obsessive, competitive, violent, cruel witches, because of their infatuation with a beautiful guy; I have seen boys losing their entire dignity for a stunning girl.
I won't be a hypocrite: I also like beauty, and I like admiring other people's prettyness, but I do not obsess on it. I don't even consider beauty as a virtue, since it's not even something you achieve by yourself: you are just born with a certain complexion, that could be considered pretty or not; that's really it, it is not even something you obtain through any kind of effort, or sacrifice... it's basically up to your DNA really :P
And about people obsessing with a certain public person, only because of its image... yeah, it's a very frequent thing. It actually happens a lot in music: if the vocalist of whatever band is attractive, it will most likely have a lot of fans, despite of the quality of the music.
I once had a "personality crush", on a guy that was anything BUT pretty XD ; he was kinda chubby, not really tall, had a big nose... he didn't had anything I'd normally consider as "attractive", but he was SO COOL:he was smart, gentle, funny, humble, friendly... he was kinda perfect :P
His personality was so amazing that, after some months, he became "pretty" in my eyes. He had a girlfriend anyways and I am VERY respectful of such things, so he never knew about my admiration for him. But in my head, I was like: "if he was single, I'd like to be with such a guy". When I first met him, I didn't really paid attention to him, because his physical aspect didn't caused a big impression on me, but after a while, I realized he was great.
Rika-Chicchi:
Well, it wasn't a relationship at all since she never really paid attention to me :P
Anyways, one of my best friends is lesbian, and we usually joke on our relationship, saying that we are a lesbian couple... XD ... last year we even said I was pregnant and she was the father of the baby :P


PS: Thank you Usapon for the tip on the quotes system! those buttons do appear, but I think I won't use them anyways, is easier for me to simply post this way :P

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:05 am 
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^ As I've said here in the past, a person having a pretty appearance but an ugly mind feels even way much more ugly than one who's ugly in both. As for the "lesbian relationship" thing, I was actually talking more about the state of mind or mindset/mentality, rather than the actual relationship itself. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:14 pm 
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SmallLadySerenity wrote:
I, for one, happen to be a gay man. A lot of people seem to view me as being "foofy" and feminine. Do I see myself like this? No. I see myself as just...being me. I don't wear dresses. I don't prance about singing Disney songs. But neither do I obsess over sports or work on cars, or any of the typical masculine things some guys do. I do my grocery shopping. I pay my bills. I like Mountain Dew and WoW. I love my anime. I have long hair and my facial features are rather feminine looking, but aside from the hair, I can't do anything about my looks. I forget about my laundry every so often. I don't shower and pepper myself with cologne every 15 minutes or dress in haute couture. I'm a t-shirt and jeans type gay guy. I'm interested in Mario games and Resident Evil. I don't screech bloody murder at the sight of an ant.



This is where you're very wrong at this, femininity doesn't come from what you do or how you look... it comes from your inner personality qualities. Why can't people understand THAT. P-:

They think you're feminine probably because you're more receptive/passive than active, you're probably more introverted and attuned to your emotions, more empathetic and sensitive.. "Yin" qualities.. I could sense that from you, very strongly actually.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:32 pm 
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But isn't Michiru in a physical relationship with Haruka, too? I can understand as I found some masculine traits in women attractive, but I did not become attracted to the point I would want to kiss them.

The dudes who liked you were attracted to your extreme vulnerability and feminine side, it reminded them of a woman, but I think they would not enter in a physical relationship with you.

About the really masculine guys liking you, that's interesting. I act pretty "feminine" but only feminine guys like me... strange. Maybe I'm a lesbian? (JK :lol:)


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 Post subject: Re: Are Haruka and Michiru both lesbians?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:51 pm 
Luna Crescens
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Ishtar:
It seems that, since I exposed a lot of issues, some of them were not clear (I couldn't expand on each topic in all its glory either, I didn't wanted to write a testament) :P
So: I have always understood that, just because a guy (or a girl) considers me attractive, it doesn't mean that person actually wants to be romantically/sexually involved with me. It only means that, such person finds me attractive, that's kinda it.
I also know that, since I look and behave pretty much female, many guys feel attraction to me because I remind them of a woman, and I'm also consent that once they know I'm not a biological woman, some of them (or many of them, I never made polls among this people XD ) wouldn't be interested on being intimate with me at all, they simply like me because they find me to be very girl-like, but will not try to have any kind of relationship with me.
When I refer to "those masculine guys, etc, etc, ", I generally refer to the ones who obviously DID had considerably strong intentions of being as intimate with me as they could.
I didn't mean the guys who saw me walking by, thought I was a girl, and shouted flattering comments to me, since such dudes know nothing about my gender and personality (and a flattering comment on the bus doesn't equal a marriage proposal either XD ).
I was referring particularly to the guys I positively KNEW were indeed interested in physical (and/or romantic) contact with me.
I wouldn't had came up with such ideas on sexuality basing myself on mere speculations. I reached those kind of theories because I experienced very concrete situations that lead me to such conclusions.
I mean: I have my reasons to think the way I do, is not like I started imagining that guys wanted to kiss me when they actually didn't XD .
I will not go deep into details because:
a) I'm actually kinda shy and old fashioned on certain things, even though it doesn't seem so :P
b) All of the examples I could give involve other people that, in most cases, I respect; so I really don't feel like posting on a forum things that should remain private, for them, and for me :P
c) I think I went too far already with the personal references... HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! ... XD ... I mean: I even told you I had been advanced by older guys in my childhood, I never told that to... well, anyone actually :P . Some of the things I wrote on this thread are scary personal, and I thing I should cut it here; one of my older brothers is a huge Sailor Moon fan, he can perfectly understand this language and I'm can totally see him checking this forum eventually. Even though I'm 24, he still sees me as "his little brother" and my previous post contain information that is embarrassing enough already :P
I still don't regret my previous post, since it was the only way I could think of to explain how and why I think the way I do about sexuality, and I why could I ever write that I could see Michiru as straight, and Haruka as an almost transexual person.
But I know that I'm always giving "too much information" whenever I open my mouth or start typing... XD ... I'm just too open and communicative, I can't help it :P
Once again: I'm not saying "I'm giving you the proof I base onto, to demonstrate I'm right", I am only explaining the situations that lead me to think the way I do.

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