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 Post subject: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:00 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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If you have seen the R movie you know fiore. Mamorus very close friend who has resemblance of Ali. Now his feelings are not made completley clear. But all those feelings he has for Mamoru makes me think more than Him wanting a Deep friendship and also how he seemed to be jealous of usagi. Now I know when you have buds you dont get to spend as much time with them when they develop love lives but this is way different. Just look at how he put his hand on mamorus (and look at usagis face ^_^' )


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:05 am 
Systema Solare
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Yes

Note: You Posted the same topic twice

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:07 am 
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Obviously gay. No real arguments against that (other than the Xenian Flower is a yaoi fan-girl)

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:08 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Maya-chan wrote:
Yes

Note: You Posted the same topic twice

I DID :?


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:11 am 
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Kendall112 wrote:
Maya-chan wrote:
Yes

Note: You Posted the same topic twice

I DID :?

A few seconds ago- Its gone now ^_^'

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:15 am 
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A few seconds ago- Its gone now ^_^'


It's in the Cauldron.

Also, whether or not Fiore loves Mamoru "that way" has been discussed amongst fans since the R movie was released. But, since there's nothing definitive...

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:24 am 
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Can't say for certain, but that's what I got from it.


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:43 am 
Usagi's Rose
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thats the vibe I got, the whole time I was hoping he and chiba would run off together so I can keep Usagi to myself but then that darn ending, yet another reason why I dislike the R movie.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:44 am 
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Fiore's sexual orientation is not really known; his behavior towards Mamoru could be seen as homosexual crush on him but doesn't have to be. Moreover, if he really was homosexual, we'd probably know about it from canon info source and we don't.

Generally, it's a worn-out simplification to ascribe or re-define characters' orientation based on their:
1) Closeness with another character;
2) Ambivalent relations with other character(s).

There's more to character psychology than sex orientations, and relations between them can be complex and deep psychologically and not related to sex at all. Otherwise you rip the character off of some really interesting stuff. Fiore's homosexuality is a possibility; it's a possibile interpretation, but there are other things worth considering. Fiore's main motif is loneliness of an alien creature floating the space in solitude who can't forget the bliss of someone else caring for him somewhere in the past. He becomes so obssessed that, encouraged by the Kisenian flower, he comes to believe he can demand and take that kindness by force and thus be eternally happy and cared for. Instead of confronting and solving his own problems, he projects his unhappiness on Sailor Moon in a fit of rage and desperation. His desire to have Mamoru entirely and exclusively for himself doesn't have to be of sexual nature.


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:58 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Elizames wrote:
Fiore's sexual orientation is not really known; his behavior towards Mamoru could be seen as homosexual crush on him but doesn't have to be. Moreover, if he really was homosexual, we'd probably know about it from canon info source and we don't.

Generally, it's a worn-out simplification to ascribe or re-define characters' orientation based on their:
1) Closeness with another character;
2) Ambivalent relations with other character(s).

There's more to character psychology than sex orientations, and relations between them can be complex and deep psychologically and not related to sex at all. Otherwise you rip the character off of some really interesting stuff. Fiore's homosexuality is a possibility; it's a possibile interpretation, but there are other things worth considering. Fiore's main motif is loneliness of an alien creature floating the space in solitude who can't forget the bliss of someone else caring for him somewhere in the past. He becomes so obssessed that, encouraged by the Kisenian flower, he comes to believe he can demand and take that kindness by force and thus be eternally happy and cared for. Instead of confronting and solving his own problems, he projects his unhappiness on Sailor Moon in a fit of rage and desperation. His desire to have Mamoru entirely and exclusively for himself doesn't have to be of sexual nature.

I didnt say it had to be sexual but His jelousy seemed too strong


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:13 am 
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Of COURSE he's gay. Come on, even Japanese guys (no offense intended) don't hold each others' hands like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:13 am 
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Kendall112 wrote:
Elizames wrote:
Fiore's sexual orientation is not really known; his behavior towards Mamoru could be seen as homosexual crush on him but doesn't have to be. Moreover, if he really was homosexual, we'd probably know about it from canon info source and we don't.

Generally, it's a worn-out simplification to ascribe or re-define characters' orientation based on their:
1) Closeness with another character;
2) Ambivalent relations with other character(s).

There's more to character psychology than sex orientations, and relations between them can be complex and deep psychologically and not related to sex at all. Otherwise you rip the character off of some really interesting stuff. Fiore's homosexuality is a possibility; it's a possibile interpretation, but there are other things worth considering. Fiore's main motif is loneliness of an alien creature floating the space in solitude who can't forget the bliss of someone else caring for him somewhere in the past. He becomes so obssessed that, encouraged by the Kisenian flower, he comes to believe he can demand and take that kindness by force and thus be eternally happy and cared for. Instead of confronting and solving his own problems, he projects his unhappiness on Sailor Moon in a fit of rage and desperation. His desire to have Mamoru entirely and exclusively for himself doesn't have to be of sexual nature.

I didnt say it had to be sexual but His jelousy seemed too strong

sexual desire or not, I just wish he took mamoru away with him so I wouldn't have to see him with Usagi ever again.

still I can't help but think Fiore's gay.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:16 am 
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Kendall112 wrote:
I didnt say it had to be sexual but His jelousy seemed too strong


:?

Homosexuality is basically about sexual preferences, isn't it? It's not a personality type. When you assume he's gay because he's too jealous, then you assume his jealousy is of sexual nature. So saying "I didn't say it has to be sexual" doesn't make sense. I'm not arguing that he can't be gay, because it can't be proved either way, I'm just arguing this terminology.

The topic asks who thinks he's gay. I said he could be but doesn't have to.


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:21 am 
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I've always thought he was gay. Definitely.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:52 am 
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He is gay, but he put his hand in Usagi's boobies :tongue:

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:56 am 
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Not necessarily. I can surely see how one would think of him as being gay towards Mamoru, but as Eris nicely explained, he doesn't have to be.

I got more of a feeling of "longing for a friend, wanting to protect said friend, and keeping away anyone who might threaten this friendship" from Fiore. However, this feeling was increased to an obsessive state due to the influence/possession of the Xenian Flower that he was under at the time. His mind had been warped by this flower into thinking that anyone other than Mamoru was a danger to his friendship with Mamoru.

When he saw how Mamoru had forgotten him, it was only natural that he'd be hurt by this notion. And seeing how Usagi reacted by pulling Mamoru from Fiore to herself, it's no wonder Fiore would feel jealously. He felt as if he'd been cast aside and refused to accept that.

But later on, after being confronted by Mamoru (as Tuxedo Kamen), Fiore was initially going to accept Mamoru's friends as his own friends, but the Xenian Flower continued to corrupt him into thinking that they were still a threat to his friendship. He was only obsessed because his mind wasn't clear.

I can relate to Fiore by these feelings as I will admit to have also felt similar feelings towards some of my old friends. But they were never any homosexual feelings (I've always been straight), just those of wanting to be with my friends and not wanting anyone to come between our friendship. I too have felt jealous of other people being with my friends. Not because I felt anything sexual about my friends, but because I feared of the possibility of being left alone without any friends (like Fiore).

Of course, this was a long ago when I was little and had fewer friends, but Fiore is similar to a small lonely child and hasn't been in the company of many others to mature mentally enough. You gotta admit, Fiore does seem like a kid in a grown-person's body.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:53 am 
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Sabrblade wrote:
Of course, this was a long ago when I was little and had fewer friends, but Fiore is similar to a small lonely child and hasn't been in the company of many others to mature mentally enough. You gotta admit, Fiore does seem like a kid in a grown-person's body.


IAWTC. The way Fiore acts seems, to me, more like a jealous and sulky child, and that he wants Mamoru to himself because he has no concept of "sharing." I mean, come on, the guy was willing to destroy an entire planet in a fit of temper.

Also, as for the bit with Japanese men not holding hands like that - Fiore isn't Japanese. He's an alien. :grey:

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:27 am 
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Probably, and I think that's what was intended, but he doesn't need to be. Kisenian increased his jealousy by a ridiculous amount. He had a friend's attraction to Mamoru before he found it, and immediately was filled with rage and jealousy. You take the extreme of his emotion and it will turn into this kind of jealousy, even if it's not motivated by a sexual attraction.

Still... pretty sure he's gay. I mean look at the rack on that flower and he never "seeded" it, but instead fixates on a guy in a tux? Hm...

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:31 am 
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As we know, that R movie is based upon "The Little Prince" - Fiore = Little Prince; Kisenian Flower = Rose... IMHO, Toei took personality of this Little Prince and gave it to Fiore (some people said that his name is based upon Flower/Flora)... As for the question - I don't really think that he is gay - he was really lonely back there (as Ali/En), then he found Mamoru, a friend thta he wanted to find, but he had to live the Earth, so he promised to return with the present... So he started to search for it and he had found one, that has corruped and twisted his all good intensions (sometimes only partially)... So, I think that there is nothing here that has something to do with the homosexuality...

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:18 am 
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The moment when he took Mamoru's hand and Usagi stepped in and said that Mamoru is her boyfriend is self-explanatory. It's clear that she assumed that Fiore is gay. If a scene like this happened in real life we could say that assumption of a girl in such a situation is not necessarily true; however, since it's not real life but anime series, Usagi says and acts exactly what anime directors and scenario writers wanted her to - it's *they* who decide if Fiore is gay or not. If they didn't consider him as one, there is no way how this scene would appear in the anime.


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:29 am 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
The moment when he took Mamoru's hand and Usagi stepped in and said that Mamoru is her boyfriend is self-explanatory. It's clear that she assumed that Fiore is gay. If a scene like this happened in real life we could say that assumption of a girl in such a situation is not necessarily true; however, since it's not real life but anime series, Usagi says and acts exactly what anime directors and scenario writers wanted her to - it's *they* who decide if Fiore is gay or not. If they didn't consider him as one, there is no way how this scene would appear in the anime.


No, it wouldn't appear in the anime if Usagi didn't think Fiore was gay. That doesn't necessarily mean that he actually was according to whoever came up with the script.

The girls also teased Ami about being a closet pervert in the movie. Does that mean she actually was? Who knows.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:48 am 
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Kerochan no Miko wrote:
No, it wouldn't appear in the anime if Usagi didn't think Fiore was gay. That doesn't necessarily mean that he actually was according to whoever came up with the script.

The girls also teased Ami about being a closet pervert in the movie. Does that mean she actually was? Who knows.

I think there is a difference between teasing and being serious, so your example don't really work here. Whatever Usagi says was put in her mouth by scenario writers, and when they obliged her to say to Fiore that Mamoru is her boyfriend, for sure they knew why they added that scene in the series. You can't analyze actions of an anime character as if they are a real life person who has a will of their own.

Here is another example of the same wrong logic (that was discussed somewhere else): Only Usagi (or her descendant) could use the Silver Crystal, and it's never proven otherwise in the series; the fact that Beryl and several other villains were hunting for it doesn't mean that they could use it, because they could be wrong in their assumption that they can use it.
This logic obviously also assumes that we are analyzing some event from real life (where possibility of such a wrong assumption indeed could happen) and not actions of anime characters who are doing only what scenario writers made them to do. Arguing that Beryl couldn't use the Silver Crystal is essentially arguing that scenario writers didn't even understand properly what and why they were adding in the plot and thus can't be trusted.

Continuing this logic we could say that Usagi's favorite phrase "For love and justice..." is a lie, because it's Usagi who was assuming that she was fighting for love and justice, while, in fact, she could as well be fighting for hatred and injustice. If we don't trust scenario writers and their POV, and everything that is happening and being said in the series belong to characters only and is not necessarily true, there isn't a single reliable fact left.


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:55 am 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
I think there is a difference between teasing and being serious, so your example don't really work here. Whatever Usagi says was put in her mouth by scenario writers, and when they obliged her to say to Fiore that Mamoru is her boyfriend, for sure they knew why they added that scene in the series. You can't analyze actions of an anime character as if they are a real life person who has a will of their own.


Okay, I really don't know what those examples have to do with the rest of this, so I'll just go back to the core issue here.

When it comes to a work of fiction, you have to separate information-as-revealed-by-character from information-as-it-really-exists. Looking at the world through Usagi's eyes will give you a world that is very different from a world seen from my eyes and one seen from, say, Setsuna's eyes, and all or none of those could be the world as it was meant by the screenwriters. The screenwriters, yes, wrote a line that means that Usagi thinks Fiore is gay. This means that Usagi thinks that Fiore is gay and absolutely nothing more than that.

In order to determine what the screenwriters actually meant about the character, you have to look at EVERYTHING about him, not just one character's opinion. Is there evidence that he is? Yes. Is there evidence that he isn't? Sure. Is there anything actually definitive, like, say, Fiore actually outright saying, "MAMORU I AM IN LOVE WITH YOU BECAUSE I AM ATTRACTED TO MEN"? No. There is not. And that's what we're left with here, fan speculation.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:00 pm 
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:roll: Oh, please, Anton. Why don't you just say right away that all Sailor Moon characters are gay including Sailor Moon herself? That's what you ultimately believe anyway.

Usagi repeats that Mamoru is her boyfriend all the time which doesn't mean the people whom she tells so are all about to stick their hands in his pants. She's jealous even of Chibiusa and this line is put in her mouth probably to showcase her immaturity rather than imply anything about the addressee. At best, it could imply what Usagi thinks about the character she addresses, and nothing more.

One problem I see with Fiore's being gay is that it royally simplifies the whole idea of the R movie. It's about true and false perceptions of friendship, not about a crazy alien gay trying to rape poor Mamoru. It's also stereotypical, not to say primitive, to enforce homosexuality on a male character just because he behaves obssessively and emotionally and cares about another someone of the same gender.

Ultimately, even with Fiore being gay, I'd rather not imagine his sexuality as the main drive for all his actions. Even if he's supposed to be gay, I'd rather think of his kidnapping Mamoru as a desperate scream for attention, etc. Besides, when in Sailor Moon characters are oficially gay, you can see it pretty clearly.


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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Quote:
It's about true and false perceptions of friendship, not about a crazy alien gay trying to rape poor Mamoru.


From now on, that's how I'm describing this movie. :mrgreen:

I agree with the "Usagi thinks he's gay but we will never really know" camp. He never says "I want to do you" he just says he really wants to be Mamoru's friend. I think the point of Fiore's character is that he never grew up. Because his home was lost (or he lost his home) he wasn't socially matured and spent his life in isolation; he remains very much a child emotionally. I think the whole point about the story is that he is incredibly naive. As far as we can tell, the only contact Fiore had with others was meeting Mamoru on Earth. Then he spent the rest of his life looking for a flower. The FLOWER might have been an alien trying to rape poor Mamoru, but that wouldn't have been gay :ninja:

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:20 pm 
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Well I have always seen on the net the fact the people believe he is gay.
I was going to speak about a detail, but Mara did it, so Fiore is jealous and giving a rose is a symbole of love...
Come on... which guy is going to give a rose to a male friend ?
So Fiore dislikes to see Usagi between him and Mamoru and in Sailor Moon nothing is realy mentionned, like Haruka and Michiru s'love but it's showed with subtility very nicely ! ^^

:innocent:
So it makes people can believe what they want to believe ! :o

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:17 pm 
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I'm not sure. I think he only acted that way as he was lonely and Mamo was the closest thing hed ever had to a friend. He probably would have been the same if said Mamoru was a woman.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:30 pm 
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pinkbubblesnake wrote:
I'm not sure. I think he only acted that way as he was lonely and Mamo was the closest thing hed ever had to a friend. He probably would have been the same if said Mamoru was a woman.


Agree just because someone has a close friendship or wants one with the same sex you're gay than! :? There's nothing in the movie that proves Fiore is gay. As someonoe had said it's all opinion. What you believe and not believe. I believe as many have said already he was just lonely and thought Mamoru was his only friend.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:31 pm 
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I think the animatirs intentionally made it ambiguous so fans would fight over it, then buy the source material to review in order to develop arguments. XD

I like what Kero said about his naïveté. Two platonic men may not hold hands, but children often have a less regimented idea of "personal space", I can see two young boys holding hands and not thinking it's romantic. And that's what Fiore kind of is... If he is gay, it would only be a small part of his motivation unnecessary to the movement of the plot.

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 Post subject: Re: Who else thinks Fiore is gay
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:30 pm 
Solaris Luna
Solaris Luna
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Elizames wrote:
:roll: Oh, please, Anton. Why don't you just say right away that all Sailor Moon characters are gay including Sailor Moon herself? That's what you ultimately believe anyway.

Usagi repeats that Mamoru is her boyfriend all the time which doesn't mean the people whom she tells so are all about to stick their hands in his pants. She's jealous even of Chibiusa and this line is put in her mouth probably to showcase her immaturity rather than imply anything about the addressee. At best, it could imply what Usagi thinks about the character she addresses, and nothing more.

One problem I see with Fiore's being gay is that it royally simplifies the whole idea of the R movie. It's about true and false perceptions of friendship, not about a crazy alien gay trying to rape poor Mamoru. It's also stereotypical, not to say primitive, to enforce homosexuality on a male character just because he behaves obssessively and emotionally and cares about another someone of the same gender.

Ultimately, even with Fiore being gay, I'd rather not imagine his sexuality as the main drive for all his actions. Even if he's supposed to be gay, I'd rather think of his kidnapping Mamoru as a desperate scream for attention, etc. Besides, when in Sailor Moon characters are oficially gay, you can see it pretty clearly.

Honestly I can't see how there can be doubt that he has romantic affections for Mamoru. First of all it is heavily implied on the show that he is in love with Mamoru. From Usagi's comment to all of the other senshi assuming he is and the whole Ami being a pervert joke. Also the fact that he gave Mamoru a rose which is a universal symbol of love.

On simplfying the R Movie, Eris do you believe that Beryl's unrequited love for Endymion cheapened the first season? What about Al and En who like Fiore were lonely and felt romantic feelings for Usagi and Mamoru. What about Demand, Esmeraude and Koan who all felt unrequited love in the R season? Would you clasify this as crude heterosexuals trying to rape someone of the opposite sex? It is not stereotypical to enfoce a sexuality on any character gay or straight, because as we see Sailor Moon does this all of the time. I also would never believe that Fiore would rape Mamoru, he loved him to much to do something like this. However like Beryl, En and Fisheye he wanted him to love him just as much as he did. Plus if he simply wanted to be friends with Mamoru there would be no problem with this, but the whole movie places him as a romantic rival to Sailor Moon and her as his nemesis. Point in fact of all the seasons I think the R season focuses on unrequited love the most from the Aliens to the Black Moon and even to the Breakup issue. So it is not unreasonable to think that the R movie would have the same general theme.

On gay characters being pretty clear in Sailor Moon, rarely the gay characters are all that clear. Rather their relationships in Sailor Moon are heavily implied just like Fiore here and you can either accept it or reject it. I mean for Christ sake there are still people who do not think Haruka and Michiru are a couple! Granted a majority of this I would chalk up to homophobia, it is irrevalent. On Sailor Moon the only characters whose romance irregardless of sexuality are focused on heavily and without some form of ambiguity is Usagi and Mamoru's and everyone else's is just gravey many times. I mean think of this if Fiore was a woman and looked a bit more like En then Al would there even be a debate that he had romantic attractions to Mamoru. I mean after all he is pretty much inspired on these characters and these characters both had romatic attractions to Usagi and Mamoru. So why would we not think that like his predicessors he would feel love and attraction to one of them especially Mamoru like En did.

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