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 Post subject: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:02 am 
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I know from the manga that Chaos sends out incarnations in the form of Sailor Moon's major enemies. However only Queen Nehelenia had a human form, while the rest didn't.

I found that interesting, sometimes I wonder how could she be an incarnation of Chaos, when she seemed to be on the same level as Queen Beryl or Sailor Galaxia as an enemy. That all of them were manipulated by other people.

I guess Chaos incarnations didn't want them all being in human-less forms and decided to be creative lol haha


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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:36 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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This was used to be a curious subject of mine. Now I think of it, Nehelenia first were an entity in the darkness, after in a mirror. She may very well be an inhuman being with a human shape. Also she is supposedly the strongest clone of Chaos so maybe the highest level is a human body? The thing I clearly know is, Nehelenia is a mysterious character. Well, all Chaos reincarnations are. Even though it deviated the source material further, something I like about 90's anime is it lets us look from a villain's perspective, in a rational way or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:27 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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I never really liked the idea that all "final bosses" were incarnations of Chaos. I'd rather it be that they were either created by or manipulated by Chaos. That would make more sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:36 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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I could see her as a form of Chaos, though not like the others. The amount of power she wields, maintaining an eclipse indefinitely over Earth without anyone noticing, and cursing Helios, Elysion, Earth, Mamoru, and Usagi. Plus, I remember that when she was being sealed away, she dissolved into darkness after her hideous form.


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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:01 am 
Luna
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Everyone interprets the "part of Chaos" thing very literally, but I consider it more of a metaphor. Chaos is a force of the universe. I don't think it literally spawned each villain but rather it's a statement on the nature of the universe. Sailor Moon herself is referred to as a "sibling" of Chaos in these same pages.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:19 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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John wrote:
Everyone interprets the "part of Chaos" thing very literally, but I consider it more of a metaphor. Chaos is a force of the universe. I don't think it literally spawned each villain but rather it's a statement on the nature of the universe. Sailor Moon herself is referred to as a "sibling" of Chaos in these same pages.

True. Chaos can be the equivalent of evil incarnate in Sailor Moon. So by its existence (the existence of evil), meant that these evil beings exist because evil exist and Chaos is the source of all evil. Which is why destroying the Galaxy Cauldron (the source of all life) is the only way to kill Chaos. Only way for evil to die is if there is no life at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:35 am 
Stella
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John wrote:
Everyone interprets the "part of Chaos" thing very literally, but I consider it more of a metaphor. Chaos is a force of the universe. I don't think it literally spawned each villain but rather it's a statement on the nature of the universe. Sailor Moon herself is referred to as a "sibling" of Chaos in these same pages.

Actually it has been pretty much confirmed that all of these main villains were incarnations of Chaos. Besides that Chaos herself does incarnate in human form in the far future as Sailor Chaos and fights Sailor Cosmos.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:37 am 
Luna
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MariaTenebre wrote:
John wrote:
Everyone interprets the "part of Chaos" thing very literally, but I consider it more of a metaphor. Chaos is a force of the universe. I don't think it literally spawned each villain but rather it's a statement on the nature of the universe. Sailor Moon herself is referred to as a "sibling" of Chaos in these same pages.

Actually it has been pretty much confirmed that all of these main villains were incarnations of Chaos. Besides that Chaos herself does incarnate in human form in the far future as Sailor Chaos and fights Sailor Cosmos.


I still think it's a metaphor and not literal. Chaos tells Sailor Moon that they were manifestations of itself, and then says that they AND Sailor Moon were all "siblings" and they all came from the same sea (referring to Chaos).

Chaos is the word used to describe the formless matter that existed before the universe. That's one of its dictionary definitions. Takeuchi is playing with the idea of a cosmos and chaos, order and disorder, patterns and unpredictability. Physicists often discuss the concept of cosmos coming from chaos.

That is why Sailor Moon says that they -- herself AND the villains -- were all lonely stars seeking to become one, because long ago, they were one.

If you interpret it literally, then you have to admit Sailor Moon herself also literally comes from Chaos.

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Last edited by John on Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:42 am 
Stella
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John wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
John wrote:
Everyone interprets the "part of Chaos" thing very literally, but I consider it more of a metaphor. Chaos is a force of the universe. I don't think it literally spawned each villain but rather it's a statement on the nature of the universe. Sailor Moon herself is referred to as a "sibling" of Chaos in these same pages.

Actually it has been pretty much confirmed that all of these main villains were incarnations of Chaos. Besides that Chaos herself does incarnate in human form in the far future as Sailor Chaos and fights Sailor Cosmos.


I still think it's a metaphor and not literal. Chaos tells Sailor Moon that they were manifestations of itself, and then says that they AND Sailor Moon were all "siblings" and they all came from the same sea (referring to Chaos).

I don't think they by calling Sailor Moon siblings and saying that they came from the same sea was indication that Sailor Moon also came from Chaos rather that Chaos and Sailor Moon both have their origins in the Galaxy Cauldron. However Queen Metalia, Wiseman/Death Phantom, Pharaoh 90 and Zirconia/Queen Nehellenia were all pretty much stated to be incarnations of Chaos or manifestations like how Sailor Chaos is in the far future.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:45 am 
Luna
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We just have to agree to disagree Maria, we clearly interpret the text differently and that's okay. Chaos refers to the villains and Sailor Moon as siblings of each other, not siblings of itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:57 am 
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John wrote:
Sailor Moon herself is referred to as a "sibling" of Chaos in these same pages.


I always thought of Cosmos and Chaos as "siblings."

Cosmos in Greek means order, the opposite of chaos. Thus, Chaos cannot exist without Cosmos, and vice versa.

When Sailor Cosmos attempts to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron, she wants to erase everything because she is tired of fighting Chaos, and in erasing everything, she will erase herself, her own existence. Sailor Moon decides not to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron, and thus Sailor Cosmos feels inspired and decides to continue existing, even knowing that as long as she exists Chaos will also exist, and that she must continue battling him/it... forever... much like the yin and yang.

If Usagi is Sailor Cosmos, then the manga has a very dark/bittersweet ending: even if Usagi has brief moments of happiness in one or several of her existences (for example, Neo Queen Serenity), her ultimate fate is to become Cosmos and fight Chaos forever and eternally (thus, her form in Stars, Eternal Sailor Moon)...

I do think that Nehelenia was one of Chaos's many forms. My interpretation is that Chaos manifests itself only through evil, and Nehelenia was evil...

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:32 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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The way i see it is that Metalia, Phantom, Pharaoh and Nehelenia all originated from Chaos but they were separate beings.

They cant be Chaos' incarnations considering both Nehelenia and Metalia were persent during Moon Kingdom days. Queen Serenity sealed off Nehelenia but in the meantime Metalia attacked and lost. Nehelenia not only survived Silver Millenium days but also was close to attacking earth when Usagi and co were dealing with Wiseman and later on Pharaoh.

It wouldnt make sense for them to be incarnations of Chaos all at once. Chaos is just a source of evil but they're also separate life forms


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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:09 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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SailorSugababe wrote:
The way i see it is that Metalia, Phantom, Pharaoh and Nehelenia all originated from Chaos but they were separate beings.

They cant be Chaos' incarnations considering both Nehelenia and Metalia were persent during Moon Kingdom days. Queen Serenity sealed off Nehelenia but in the meantime Metalia attacked and lost. Nehelenia not only survived Silver Millenium days but also was close to attacking earth when Usagi and co were dealing with Wiseman and later on Pharaoh.

It wouldnt make sense for them to be incarnations of Chaos all at once. Chaos is just a source of evil but they're also separate life forms

They could be like avatars of Chaos. Avatars are physical representations a being, while the actual being still exists. Like think that Zirconia, while she acts independently, is still an avatar of Nehellenia. They might appear different, but Zirconia is technically a part of Nehellenia, to act in her stead. The same can be said of Nehellenia (and the other three big bads) in relation to Chaos.


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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:14 pm 
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Being an incarnation of Chaos does not mean that they are the same being as Chaos. It just means that they come from Chaos and they are a manifestation of Chaos. In the same way that evil has many different forms, so does Chaos. It's not a literal sense of Chaos shape shifting and reincarnating itself as Nehellenia, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:58 pm 
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Clow wrote:
If Usagi is Sailor Cosmos, then the manga has a very dark/bittersweet ending: even if Usagi has brief moments of happiness in one or several of her existences (for example, Neo Queen Serenity), her ultimate fate is to become Cosmos and fight Chaos forever and eternally (thus, her form in Stars, Eternal Sailor Moon)...

I do think that Nehelenia was one of Chaos's many forms. My interpretation is that Chaos manifests itself only through evil, and Nehelenia was evil...


That's a really neat insight! I had never thought of that before. In a way, Usagi's decision to allow chaos to co-exist is reminiscent of Shinji Ikari's decision to reject instrumentality in The End of Evangelion.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:29 pm 
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ChibiBoi wrote:
Being an incarnation of Chaos does not mean that they are the same being as Chaos. It just means that they come from Chaos and they are a manifestation of Chaos. In the same way that evil has many different forms, so does Chaos. It's not a literal sense of Chaos shape shifting and reincarnating itself as Nehellenia, etc.


Yeah, this is really what I meant when I said that I think it's a metaphor.

I think lots of fans have this idea that the "incarnations of Chaos" line refers to Chaos physically, literally shape-shifting or disguising itself and that's just way too convenient and simplistic for me. Even Maria above kept referring to the whole "the text itself states this" defense without actually getting into what "manifestation" or "incarnation" actually means in this context.

I'm glad there are other people who either see it the way I do, or see it in a very similar way. Even Clow's interpretation above basically lines up with how I see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:08 am 
Stella
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John wrote:
ChibiBoi wrote:
Being an incarnation of Chaos does not mean that they are the same being as Chaos. It just means that they come from Chaos and they are a manifestation of Chaos. In the same way that evil has many different forms, so does Chaos. It's not a literal sense of Chaos shape shifting and reincarnating itself as Nehellenia, etc.


Yeah, this is really what I meant when I said that I think it's a metaphor.

I think lots of fans have this idea that the "incarnations of Chaos" line refers to Chaos physically, literally shape-shifting or disguising itself and that's just way too convenient and simplistic for me. Even Maria above kept referring to the whole "the text itself states this" defense without actually getting into what "manifestation" or "incarnation" actually means in this context.

I'm glad there are other people who either see it the way I do, or see it in a very similar way. Even Clow's interpretation above basically lines up with how I see it.

I don't think that Chaos literally shapeshifts into these entities. I think they are all separate from Chaos but have their origins in her and are aspects of manifestations. That is how I see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Queen Nehelenia a Chaos form?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:37 am 
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I have always seen her as the representation of the queen of chaos, just as Serenity is the queen of order. Two sides of the same coin. Neo Queen Serenity is basically Usagi's civilian form, while Sailor Moon/Sailor Cosmos is her "true" form. Nehelenia to me is Chaos's civilian form, while Sailor Chaos is her "true" form.


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