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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:02 am 
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
........


But have you actually seen people criticize the ViZ for addig dialog while praising DiC?


I have no clue why this is difficult for you and Neon. Of course there are fans that praise DiC while bashing Viz. I never said there wasn't. But their criticisms towad Viz are not because Viz strayed from the original script.


This isnt't difficult to understand..


You guys want to pretend there is some kind of hypocrisy in the fandom for those who like the DiC dub by creating false strawmen.


Maybe I should've phrased my comments better, yes I have seen some fans who criticise the Viz dub for adding their own dialogues and making changes while giving the DiC dubs a free pass, even though DiC was much more guilty of straying away from the original versions.

And even if you personally have not encountered fans like that, there are other people who have like me, everyone is bound to have different encounters and experiences and encounter different people, you can't just expect everyone to come across all the same people you've seen. So just because you personally haven't seen fans like that, it doesn't mean they "don't" exist, clearly other people have encountered fans like that. And I hope you understand that.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:06 am 
Solaris Luna
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Someone can enjoy the DiC dub, with all its silly dialog and deviations from the original, and not criticize those things because the DiC dub never marketed itself as or acted like it was a 100% faithful dub, and just appreciate it for what it is, and still also want a dub that is truly faithful, see a dub like the Viz re-dub that is marketing itself as 100% faithful, and be disappointed and critical that it isn't and is making dialog changes that they (the viewer/fan) feels are inappropriate in such a dub.

Did that make sense? Not sure if I've expressed that clearly enough...

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:16 am 
Luna
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One thing thats annoying me lately is people complaining about the Viz dub saying "Why did they change the entire script?!" They clearly see the DIC dub as the original and I understand as it was the same for me but:

They're not, they're reverting it BACK to how it originally was!!!!

It's a pet peeve and I know I should be more tolerant.

I love the DIC dub, but I don't tolerate the spreading of misinformation.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:58 am 
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SnowWolf wrote:
One thing thats annoying me lately is people complaining about the Viz dub saying "Why did they change the entire script?!" They clearly see the DIC dub as the original and I understand as it was the same for me but:

They're not, they're reverting it BACK to how it originally was!!!!

It's a pet peeve and I know I should be more tolerant.

I love the DIC dub, but I don't tolerate the spreading of misinformation.


I agree with you, some of the fans I've seen who complain about the Viz dub changes but give the DiC dubs a free pass had never actually watched the original Japanese dub, they've only watched the old english dubbings and assume that DiC's dialogues were the "original", which is so far from the truth. DiC actually deviated much too far away from the original Japanese dubbing. The Viz dubs in comparison are actually much more similar to the original and are reverting back to the actual original Japanese dialogues and scripts. Of course Viz has made some changes and modifications of their own too, but no where near the extent that DiC did, and Viz is still keeping their scripts largely faithful and similar to the actual original Japanese dubs. At least much more so than the DiC dubs ever were.
I had to recommend those fans to watch the original Japanese dubs too so they would realise just how much the DiC dubs had deviated away from the original Japanese dubs.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:08 am 
Stella Nova
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SnowWolf wrote:
One thing thats annoying me lately is people complaining about the Viz dub saying "Why did they change the entire script?!" They clearly see the DIC dub as the original and I understand as it was the same for me but:

They're not, they're reverting it BACK to how it originally was!!!!

It's a pet peeve and I know I should be more tolerant.

I love the DIC dub, but I don't tolerate the spreading of misinformation.


When it comes to Sailor Moon, almost everything said by fans is misinformation (See Pop Tarts, "Naoko hates episode 67", "Naoko hates the English dub" & "Naoko hates the old anime").

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:10 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
Someone can enjoy the DiC dub, with all its silly dialog and deviations from the original, and not criticize those things because the DiC dub never marketed itself as or acted like it was a 100% faithful dub, and just appreciate it for what it is, and still also want a dub that is truly faithful, see a dub like the Viz re-dub that is marketing itself as 100% faithful, and be disappointed and critical that it isn't and is making dialog changes that they (the viewer/fan) feels are inappropriate in such a dub.

Did that make sense? Not sure if I've expressed that clearly enough...
Certainly they can and there are some legitimate translation issues like some of the typos on the Viz subs. But I also feel like some Moonies are just being overly pedantic about the Viz dub and are just looking for excuses to not finacially support the official releases.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:12 am 
Luna
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I just watched the Viz dub of Umino's Resolve: "I'll protect Naru" and here's where DiC's heavy rewrites are for the best as the DiC episode is much better than the Japanese version and by extension in the Viz dub


*In the Vic dub and the Japanese version Luna calls the girls at night for a meeting ...to tell them she's from the moon. Wow. A talking magic cat with a crescent moon mark named Luna who is searching for the Moon Princess is from the moon? NO F-CKING SH!T! The DiC dub has her inform them that there is a 5th Scout. Which aside from actually being news sets up the following episode quite nicely. Also in the Japanese version/The Viz dub has Artemis/Central Control just casually mention to Luna the 5th Soldier will join soon. In the DiC dub its the main point.


*Minor thing but why would Motoki have 2 tickets to the Redman show if he's too old? He doesn't even give a reason like he won a contest or he planned on taking his little cousin or something he just has them for convenience. In the DiC dub Andrew seemed to actually want to go but his plans changed for Rita.


*And then lastly I enjoy that DiC had Luna pointing out she had the crystal right in front of her and apologizing to Serena for her own mistake rather than lecture Usagi. Because seriously the animation just has Luna standing right in front of the crystal not even reacting until Zoicite appears.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:53 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:


I don't think she was a b*tch in either version she just clashed with Serena/Usagi. But I despite when people act like Raye was some token evil teammate and Rei was just slightly bossy. Purist snobs also act like Raye never had her sweet moments or something. Very rarely was Raye being mean in the dub but not in the Japanese original. I can think of like one example (and fans heavily exaggerate how bad it actually was) which was counter balanced by 7 episodes prior when Rei was being harsh and Raye was being apolegetic and understanding.
I think the big difference to me is that the Japanese version played up Rei's meanness for comedy. Yes she could be mean in the original too but it was always played for laughs and you weren't supposed to take it seriously. DiC always seemed to play Rei's meanness more seriously and didn't do a good job of getting the chemistry of the comedy routine right. Rei and Usagi's realationship in the Japanese version is almost like a manzai comedy routine and DiC never managed to grasp that and lost a lot of the nuisances of what was supposed to be comical about their arguments.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:56 am 
Galaxias
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
*In the Vic dub and the Japanese version Luna calls the girls at night for a meeting ...to tell them she's from the moon. Wow. A talking magic cat with a crescent moon mark named Luna who is searching for the Moon Princess is from the moon? NO F-CKING SH!T!
Did you forget that before this episode, Luna barely ever mentioned to the girls that they were specifically looking for the Moon Princess? Nine times out of ten did she ever just refer to the princess as just "the princess" or "our princess". The very notion of there ever having been a kingdom on the Moon never came up before that episode. That's why Luna's confession about having come from the Moon was so significant in that episode. Up until that point, the girls just thought they were looking for some ordinary Earthen princess. But when Luna spilled the beans in that episode, it came to light that the princess that the girls were supposed to be looking for was literally out of this world.

The main reason DiC changed this scene was because, in the DiC dub, Luna had already hammered in the idea of the Moon Kingdom's existence to the girls several episodes earlier, much as she had done so with the Negaverse's existence well before episode 14, which is when Luna and the girls learned of the Dark Kingdom's name or the first time in the Japanese version (and DiC apparently forgot to change the scene in episode 14 when Luna tells the others about the Dark Kingdom, as she tells them about the Negaverse in that scene in the DiC version, and they're just as surprised in that version as they were about the Dark Kingdom in the original and Viz version despite their having already known about the Negaverse well before that point in the DiC version).

LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
Also in the Japanese version/The Viz dub has Artemis/Central Control just casually mention to Luna the 5th Soldier will join soon. In the DiC dub its the main point.
It was meant to be subtle foreshadowing.

LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
*Minor thing but why would Motoki have 2 tickets to the Redman show if he's too old? He doesn't even give a reason like he won a contest or he planned on taking his little cousin or something he just has them for convenience. In the DiC dub Andrew seemed to actually want to go but his plans changed for Rita.
Did he *need* a reason, though? Does it really matter that much?

He could have just been given them by a friend or someone and, being the nice guy he is, could have not had the heart the refuse the tickets. Or he could have been given the tickets with the task of finding someone willing to go to the show.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:14 am 
Luna
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I dunno are you forgetting that even if you take out the "Moon Princess" part its still a talking cat named Luna with a crescent moon birthmark on her forehead . It shouldn't be that shocking that she's from the moon.


And regardless DiC choosing to focus on the impending arrival of the 5th Scout was a much better choice. Even more so when in the next episodes Rei ask Luna if Fake Moon is the 5th soldier in all versions of the episode even though Luna didn't mention a 5th soldier on screen in the Japanese version/Viz dub.


And you may have noticed I said it was a minor thing regarding the Motoki thing.



And subtle foreshadowing my ☹. If Artemis said " soon the Sailor Guardians will all be united" that might have counted for subtle foreshadowing but when he mentions a 5th guardian out of nowhere to Luna which she just ignores and doesn't tell the Guardians but then apparently tells them off-screen


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:16 pm 
Luna
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And I watched Shining Silver Crystal! The Moon Princess appears of the Viz dub which is a great episode no matter what version you're watching. Point of order


It took 34 episodes but Robbie Daymond is my favorite English VA for Mamoru/Darien. His performance this episode was great. Dunno why he also voiced his 6 year old self though...


John Bosch's talents are wasted on Artemis. Mamoru, Ali, Safir those are the characters he should be voicing.


Not sure how I feel about Cherami Leigh as Minako. It didn't instantly WOW me like Amanda C Miller's Mako or make me go "Well that's a huge miscast" like Kate Higgins Ami perhaps it has to grow on me like Stephanie Sheh. To be fair Minako gets little to do in this three parter getting kind of shoved into the story. It might be easier to gauge her performance when I get to episode 36 or 42. DiC really shafted Mina in the first season by removing her one spotlight episode and removing her character quirk of messing up proverbs viewers were left with a character who barely had anything to distinguish her other than "Well she's the other blonde Sailor Scout with the other talking cat" so I look forward to Viz and Miss Leigh salvaging her.


Now that he's gonna die next episode, Zoicite's Viz VA is fine. He sounds like a ☹y effiminate gay man which is kind of the point I suppose.


In a rare time where I'm on the other side of the original/Viz vs DiC I much prefer Maboroshi no Ginzuishou over "My only love". My only love is great but it couldn't sound more 90s if it tried. Maboroshi no Ginzuishou feels much more timeless. Wish Viz could have dubbed it.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:58 pm 
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
I dunno are you forgetting that even if you take out the "Moon Princess" part its still a talking cat named Luna with a crescent moon birthmark on her forehead . It shouldn't be that shocking that she's from the moon.


I don't know. There could be many moons that share that crescent spot... she could even be from Leda or some other moon.

I think you're forgetting that Sailor MOON thought that Sailor VENUS was the MOON Princess?! It must have been shocking to know that Sailor VENUS isn't the MOON Princess :P. The characters can't really put two and two together.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:36 pm 
Luna
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Well all 3 versions had that asinine moment so none of them get a cookie.


As Sailor Moon Abridged put it

Sailor Moon: Are you the Moon Princess. Sailor VENUS?

Sailor Venus: I don't know Sailor MOON!!


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:44 pm 
Luna Crescens
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Well at least you didn't have an opening whose lyrics spoils it since the First episode


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:56 pm 
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I prefer the DIC because the sub sounded more natural than the VIZ.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:26 am 
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One awesome thing that DiC did compared to the original - kept spoilers to themselves.

I remember seeing Sailor Venus in the opening credits and having to wait what felt like years before she actually showed up and by the time I did it was a huge surprise and made the hair standup on my neck!

Maybe I missed the episode title that day although it doesn't actually claim she's 100% going to be there. I don't remember seeing her in the preview either. It was so cool!


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:39 pm 
Luna
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I think "Sailor V makes the scene" would 100 percent claim she's going to be there.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:40 pm 
Galaxias
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A thought just occurred to me last night.

DiC and Viz basically traded dub names for two different crystals.

The Kurozuishou was called the Black Crystal by DiC and the Dark Crystal by Viz, while the Jakokusuishou was called the Dark Crystal by DiC and the (Malefic) Black Crystal by Viz.

And in these two cases, DiC's name for the first was the more accurate of those two, while Viz's name for the second was the more accurate of those two.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:10 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Sabrblade wrote:
I thought just occurred to me last night.

DiC and Viz basically traded dub names for two different crystals.

The Kurozuishou was called the Black Crystal by DiC and the Dark Crystal by Viz, while the Jakokusuishou was called the Dark Crystal by DiC and the (Malefic) Black Crystal by Viz.

And in these two cases, DiC's name for the first was the more accurate of those two, while Viz's name for the second was the more accurate of those two.


DIC also referred to the Kurozuishou as the "Star Crystal", and "Rainbow Homing Crystal". There was at least one time they called the Jakokusuishou the "Black Crystal". I distinctly remember Emerald calling it that in a later episode.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:20 pm 
Luna
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I dont recall them actually call it Rainbow Homing Crystal just referring to its purpose as such.
But yes it was called the star crystal when Nephlyte had it own and dark crystal when Zoycite used it


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:05 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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I also remember DiC started using the term Sailor Soldiers instead of Scouts when they dubbed the last 17 episodes of R.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:13 pm 
Luna
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Yep but I think they still used Sailor Scouts more than Soldiers.

Until Sailor Moon S dub where they were called Sailor Soldiers way more frequently than Scouts to the point the Toonami promos referred to them as such.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:09 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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I would say that other than the usual cuts for nudity scenes, the last 17 episodes of R were extremely faithful by DiC standards, and in many cases, they were following the original word for word at that point.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:41 pm 
Luna
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Huh weird seeing as they were all written by Lisa Lumby who was considered the "bad writer" for S and SuperS.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:44 am 
Galaxias
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Umino wrote:
DIC also referred to the Kurozuishou as the "Star Crystal", and "Rainbow Homing Crystal". There was at least one time they called the Jakokusuishou the "Black Crystal". I distinctly remember Emerald calling it that in a later episode.
LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
But yes it was called the star crystal when Nephlyte had it own and dark crystal when Zoycite used it
Neon Genesis wrote:
I also remember DiC started using the term Sailor Soldiers instead of Scouts when they dubbed the last 17 episodes of R.
LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
Yep but I think they still used Sailor Scouts more than Soldiers.

Until Sailor Moon S dub where they were called Sailor Soldiers way more frequently than Scouts to the point the Toonami promos referred to them as such.
Well, guys, DiC was rather known for its fair share of inconsistencies.

Neon Genesis wrote:
I would say that other than the usual cuts for nudity scenes, the last 17 episodes of R were extremely faithful by DiC standards, and in many cases, they were following the original word for word at that point.
LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
Huh weird seeing as they were all written by Lisa Lumby who was considered the "bad writer" for S and SuperS.
The final 17 episodes were more faithful than the first 65 were, yes, but only to an extent. They got most of the basic ideas from the Japanese version of those episodes across in the dub, but still maintained a fair amount of DiC's usual changes.

One of the most infamous changes in these episodes made by DiC was the King of the Earth outright declaring that Neo Queen Serenity DID banish to Nemesis all those who attacked Crystal Tokyo and evaded purification by the Silver Crystal, a change that many in this fandom for years mistook as also being true for the Japanese version and even the manga. When in reality, the Japanese version of the anime had those malcontents who evaded purification merely flee into space on their own accord, while the manga had only Death Phantom banished to Nemesis by the Queen, and as an act of mercy instead of executing him (since she didn't want to kill him).

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:51 am 
Luna
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Even the first 65 episodes had quite a number of faithfully translated episodes.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:01 am 
Galaxias
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
Even the first 65 episodes had quite a number of faithfully translated episodes.
Yeah, but most would say that the final 17 were probably the most on point with the Japanese version of the entire DiC run.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:30 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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The first season had the most extreme rewrites and censorship cuts but to me I felt like the DiC dub started to improve in accuracy by the time they got to the Doom Tree arc.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:33 am 
Luna
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Just watched episode 41 and 42 of the Viz dub. The latter of which was of course skipped
by DiC . Some things to address

Episode 41:
Someone tell Viz that "Douse yourself in water and repent" sounds stupid in English


"If you're gonna recycle recycle cans!" Who needs Sailor Says when the original
Japanese version/Viz dub has awkward aesops with bizarre segues throw in the actual episode?


Episode 42:
The two most popular suggestions as to why this episode was skipped by DiC was because "Sailor V wasn't as well known " and "the scene with the grenade" the entire argument for the former is asinine as American viewers definitely knew who Sailor V was (except the Nostalgia Critic I guess). The grenade thing holds some water but I still have my doubts. For one grenades aren't as easy to find lying around the house as guns (and Sailor Moon let the burglar from Venus's debut keep his shotgun) and DiC doesn't seemed bothered by suggesting death unless someone actually dies. If anything DiC skipped this episode because Prince Darien takes a backseat to the plot and DiC found it expendable to their 65 episode package.


Also watching this episode without the glasses of "Oh my God a lost episode!" this episode wasn't as good as I remembered mostly because it makes no sense.


How did Minako, a middle school student, move to a completely different continent and live there? Why couldn't it be set in Tokyo?

And Artemis apparently didn't know any of this uhhhn wasn't he the one who awakened her and mentored her?

What was Alan's relationship with Minako? She knew him before Katarina and he seemed older. Like he is to Minako what Motoki was to Usagi in early series one but Motoki was familiar with Usagi because she frequented his arcade that he worked at. How did Minako and Alan meet and why were they close in spite of the age difference.

Kunzite should know Minako is Sailor V (he teleports into the hotel room after she leaves as Minako) but ehhh not important I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:31 am 
Galaxias
Galaxias
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
Episode 42:
The two most popular suggestions as to why this episode was skipped by DiC was because "Sailor V wasn't as well known " and "the scene with the grenade" the entire argument for the former is asinine as American viewers definitely knew who Sailor V was (except the Nostalgia Critic I guess). The grenade thing holds some water but I still have my doubts. For one grenades aren't as easy to find lying around the house as guns (and Sailor Moon let the burglar from Venus's debut keep his shotgun) and DiC doesn't seemed bothered by suggesting death unless someone actually dies. If anything DiC skipped this episode because Prince Darien takes a backseat to the plot and DiC found it expendable to their 65 episode package.
I propose that that DiC might have felt that episode 42 was too intense for them to keep, what with its overall disheartening and humorless tone, and its bittersweet ending for Minako. DiC probably felt that it would have simply been too depressing for their audience, no matter how much they might have possibly been able to punch it up with jokey dialogue.

The scene with Katarina and Allan thinking Minako died in the explosion, and Minako's soul-crushing moment of depression in that scene when she sees the embrace, might also have been too much for DiC to soften.

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