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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:03 pm 
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
I have a huge soft spot for Linda Ballatyne because she was being told by the Optimum directors "to sound like Terri" she knew they wanted Terri and likened herself to the 2nd Barney on Flintstones. And when she started personalizing the role midway through S she got a lot better.


If Linda was specifically instructed to imitate Terri's version then that is truly unfortunate, because it was clear from her performance that she really tried too hard to sound like Terri's version and her performance just came across as desperate and too exaggerated and forced to me, and her voice acting never improved, at least not to me. I think she should've just opted to voice Usagi in her own way with her own style instead of just trying to imitate Terri. But speaking of Terri, as much as I like her performance as Usagi, I think even Terri's performance sounded a bit too exaggerated to me sometimes. I actually still prefer Tracy Moore's performance of Usagi better, because I think her voice and delivery were still very spot on for the role of Usagi but without all the over-exaggeration that both Terri and Linda delivered in their performances. Tracy's performance of Usagi was more organic and more toned-down but still sounded very much like Usagi to me. In comparison Terri and Linda's performances both just sounded too forced and over-dramatic sometimes, especially Linda's performance was just awful IMO. Terri's voice acting was better and more tolerable, but among these 3 old voice actresses for Usagi, I still like Tracy's version of Usagi the most, this is excluding Stephanie Sheh.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:05 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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SailorLinda1 wrote:

But it's not just Linda's performance as Usagi, I think the Cloverway dubs in general was awful and easily the worst out of all the dub versions for me, I think most of the other voice casts in the Cloverway dubs sounded bad and flat for their respective characters too, the voicing of the Outer Senshis sounded off and flat too, overall the Cloverway dubs are just barely tolerable to me. I hope the Viz dub cast will do a better job when they dub season 3.
For me, the cheesy voice acting of the Cloveway dub is part of the charm. It's the same reason I'll go back and rewatch the English dub of the original Voltron or the Kids WB version of Cardcaptors. Neither are terrific dubs by modern standards but I enjoy them for their nostalgic cheese factor. Even putting aside the controversy over Linda, I like the other Cloverway VAs just fine and there are some I prefer over DiC. Sugar Bee as Rini is the obvious example but I personally liked Mina's Cloverway voice over her DiC voice as I feel she did a better job of bringing out Mina's goofy side. Amara's dub VA could be a little monotone at times but I liked the concept behind it well enough and I personally liked Neptune's voice a lot and thought she did a good job of bringing out Michelle's maturity. I thought Hotaru's VA was fitting for her, and with the exception of maybe Zirconia and Fisheye, I think all the villains had great voices in the Cloverway dub, especially Professor Tomoe and Kaorinite who was also the voice of Zoisite and Emerald in the DiC dub. Amy's Cloverway voice was the only one I didn't really care for that much. Fans complain about her Viz VA sounding too generic for Ami but she's got nothing on her Cloverway voice but I still always associate her Cloverway voice with these episodes for some reason.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:36 am 
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I'm now halfway through Super S and the Cloverway dubs are still dismal overall for me, Linda's version of Usagi never improves for me, it's still just as bad and forced as ever, I can barely tolerate it, I miss Tracey Moore & Terri's versions of Usagi. And the voices of the villains are all too flat and bland for me, I miss the exaggerated and dynamic voices for the villains in the DiC dubs. But the dubbing for the Inner Senshis, Chibiusa and Pegasus are just fine for me, except maybe Liza Balkan as Ami, I wouldn't say Liza was "bad" as Ami, but like Kate Higgins, I just don't think Liza's voice and acting were a particularly good fit for Ami's character, I still think Karen Bernstein's version was perfect as Ami by far, no other english voice actress for Ami even comes close to Karen's great performance. However I do think Liza's portrayal of Ami was still better than Kate Higgins, it's unfortunate that Kate is such a miscast for Ami.

Now as I'm re-watching S and Super S and hearing the dismal dubbing from Cloverway, I do miss the DiC dub a lot, DiC's dub was leaps and bounds better in comparison IMO. I hope Viz would do a better job than Cloverway when they dub S and Super S.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:03 am 
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Dic turned Sailor Moon into something entirely different than the original. It's essence was completely changed, but in my opinion, it was done well. Dic knew what they were doing, and even if it wasn't faithfully translated, it was done well. There is a reason Sailor Moon became so popular. I personally don't think that if the Viz dub were to air on TV now, or then, it would have been as popular and far reaching. There was just something about the Dic dub in all it's butchered glory that was uniquely charming.

Viz simply provides us with an accurate translation of the original anime. Dic's Sailor Moon is an adaptation, while Viz's is a translation. In a way, I almost don't think it's fair to compare them, given that.

I enjoy both, at the end of the day.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:53 am 
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I think the problem with the DiC dubs was the dialogue translations, some of the dialogue just wasn't right and very out-of-character especially for some of the characters like Ami, some of Ami's dialogue in the DiC dubs were so bad they were very unlike Ami's true character, and they turned Rei into a b*tch, just to mention a few. But that's not the fault of the voice actors, I blame whoever did the english translations, I just think the editors who did the english translations for the DiC dubs did not fully understand the characters, and gave some of them some horrible and just downright wrong dialogue sometimes.
But in terms of the voice acting, I think the DiC dub voice casts were superior in their performances than both the Cloverway dubs and the Viz dubs overall. But like I mentioned before, it really depends on which version of the anime, since the 90s anime is much more comical, exaggerated, goofier and cheesier in tone, I feel the more exaggerated and dynamical voice acting in the DiC dubs suits the 90s anime better. In comparison the Viz dubbing is much more toned-down and refined, which suits the overall more refined and serious tone of Crystal better I think. I don't think the more exaggerated and OTT DiC dubbing would work so well with Crystal though.
So yes it really just depends on which anime version we're referring to since the tones for the 90s anime and Crystal are very different to each other. I like the Viz dub for Crystal, but I definitely prefer the more dynamical DiC dubbing for the 90s anime.

But I do agree that the Viz translations are more faithful and loyal to the original Japanese versions than DiC ever was, and that's the one thing about the Viz dubbing that I like better than DiC for the 90s anime. So to put it simply, I prefer the DiC voice dubbing for the 90s anime, but I prefer Viz's dialogue translations.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:10 am 
Luna
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I prefer the DiC dialog translation because it actually flows like English dialog and doesnt have that "speaking in subtitles" feeling the Viz dub has for example


Usagi: That creep is taking advantage of the feelings Naru has for him!


Serena: Ooh that Nephlite is going to pay for playing with Molly's feelings!

Also most of the added DiC humor is pretty funny for a kids show. Most of the added Viz humor is pretty meh like Rei talking about regretting wearing high heels


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:54 am 
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
I prefer the DiC dialog translation because it actually flows like English dialog and doesnt have that "speaking in subtitles" feeling the Viz dub has for example


Usagi: That creep is taking advantage of the feelings Naru has for him!


Serena: Ooh that Nephlite is going to pay for playing with Molly's feelings!

Also most of the added DiC humor is pretty funny for a kids show. Most of the added Viz humor is pretty meh like Rei talking about regretting wearing high heels


I get what you mean, but my main problem with the DiC dialogues is some of the dialogues are just so unlike the characters and just downright wrong, such as in season 1 during Rei's introductory episode (episode 7) when Usagi was daydreaming about Tuxedo Mask & Motoki then Ami insulted Usagi in that scene by saying "you look like a silly lovesick frog that's just waiting for some big old bug to fly in its mouth". The REAL Ami would NEVER say something so rude and insulting, that's just not her character, the real Ami is suppose to be sweet and kind and polite, but DiC really butchered some of her dialogue. And not to mention they also turned Rei into a b*tch, that particular insult was the kind of comment that you would expect Rei to say to Usagi, but NOT Ami. Some of the other characters also had some bad dialogue too, but I think out of all the characters, Ami in particular had some of the worst dialogues that were so completely out of her character in the DiC dubs.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:09 pm 
Luna
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Oh I agree with the sentiment that Amy was midhandled.


I just watched the dub of Jupiter! The Powerful girl in love


Some stray comments


Wow. Amanda Miller is fantastic as Mako. I had to get use to Sheh. I still think Higgins is miscast and Vee is strictly passable but Miller is just woooow. By far my favorite ViZ VA for the guardians. She perfectly captures the caring big sister qualities of Mako.


Now that I've heard Kunzite's Viz va outside of sound clips he's pretty good. He's got a tad Dan Green vibe to him but more restrained and less ham. I can also say now that I'm past the Nephrite arc I don't like Nephrite's dub voice. It never stop sounding Tim Curry lite to me and its hard to care about his redemption when I keep waiting for him to sing Sweet Transvestite.


Viz adapting sempai as old love that broke my heart is pretty interesting. I think a
more direct translation of upperclassmen/mentor/senior would have sounded awkward so it was good choice. Granted sempai has become a pretty well known phrase thanks to internet culture and memes so they might have gotten away with leaving it alone!


Some observations that apply to both the Japanese original and Viz dub in comparison to the Dic dub

I found it interesting in the DiC dub its not clear that the Negaforce is Beryl's master for another 10 episodes. You'd actually believe its her advisor than anything. Here its immediately clear that "The great ruler" is the one in charge.


It was always a peculiar anomoly to me that Joe is portrayed as a douchebag when every other reincarnated great youma was the nicest person (or cat) ever to contrast their past life. DiC actuslly rectified it a bit by making Joe use his powers to give to needy kids instead of being a smug showoff and possibly having feelings for Lita. Of course it ruined a perfectly powerful moment where you see Mako react to Joe calling her a giant changed to a random reaction of Lita being shocked because....Joe said he doesn't know Zoycite?


Also interesting is Luna identifies Jupiter as the fourth and final guardian (possibly because Luna correctly remembers there was four guardians in the Silver Millenium it was just Venus instead of Moon) no such thing happens in the DiC dub (of course why bother when all 5
Scouts are named in the opening from the first episodes) in both cases the later revelation of a 5th Sailor is treated as a twist.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:40 pm 
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SailorLinda1 wrote:
LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
I prefer the DiC dialog translation because it actually flows like English dialog and doesnt have that "speaking in subtitles" feeling the Viz dub has for example


Usagi: That creep is taking advantage of the feelings Naru has for him!


Serena: Ooh that Nephlite is going to pay for playing with Molly's feelings!

Also most of the added DiC humor is pretty funny for a kids show. Most of the added Viz humor is pretty meh like Rei talking about regretting wearing high heels


I get what you mean, but my main problem with the DiC dialogues is some of the dialogues are just so unlike the characters and just downright wrong, such as in season 1 during Rei's introductory episode (episode 7) when Usagi was daydreaming about Tuxedo Mask & Motoki then Ami insulted Usagi in that scene by saying "you look like a silly lovesick frog that's just waiting for some big old bug to fly in its mouth". The REAL Ami would NEVER say something so rude and insulting, that's just not her character, the real Ami is suppose to be sweet and kind and polite, but DiC really butchered some of her dialogue. And not to mention they also turned Rei into a b*tch, that particular insult was the kind of comment that you would expect Rei to say to Usagi, but NOT Ami. Some of the other characters also had some bad dialogue too, but I think out of all the characters, Ami in particular had some of the worst dialogues that were so completely out of her character in the DiC dubs.


You're exaggerating. I can think of three other examples, max, where Amy says something that could arguably be classified as uncharacteristic or incongruent within the entirety of the DiC dub's 82 episode tenure and in spite of the flagrant dissonance between the aforementioned character's personality spoken dialogue, said dialogue was at least contextually appropriate and added realistic humour to the situation pushed the boundaries of the character's archetypical image. The "real" Ami was an uninteresting prude whose dialogue consisted of monotonous lectures on the importance of studying and boring expository info-dumps, as was part and parcel of the sub. She didn’t have much going for her. I like that the DiC dub took liberties with the dialogue because it unknowingly exemplified the unspoken dimensions inherent within the girls and added to the complexities that the original anime seldom bothered to accentuate as the series progressed. The DiC dub also, IMO, did a better job at emphasizing the friendship of the inner senshi because of the informal albeit dated '90s lingo, slang and dialogue utilized between them collectively, whereas they conversed in very formal and uppity tones in the original sub and that detracted from the fact that they were supposedly best friends, and teenage girls at that. There were some odd phraseology choices during the CWi era, and coupled with Balkan's delivery they made for some...interesting scenes, but I feel that DiC and Karen Bernstein's ferocious execution of her lines helped turned Amy into a heroic force to be reckoned with during the '90s :love: . And Rei’s a b*tch in both versions, but DiC was at least honest about it and didn't hide behind the fake facade of 'misunderstood/emotionally deep shrine maiden' that the sub did. It made for some refreshing scenes between Serena and herself at least.

It's interesting, though, to see the differences in terms of characterization between the dub and sub.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:56 pm 
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
I can also say now that I'm past the Nephrite arc I don't like Nephrite's dub voice. It never stop sounding Tim Curry lite to me.
Oh, I WISH his voice sounded as awesome as Tim Curry's. Curry's voice just oozes with slimy charisma befitting the kinds of cunning and calculating villains that he's played over the years.

And honestly, Liam O'Brien's Nephrite is really on point with the vile smoothness of his Japanese voice, complementing his role as a confident master manipulator with an air of upperclass sophistication and cunning. DiC's "Nephlite" voice, however, just had the guy sounding like an angry chain smoker who always growled almost every single line he spoke, much like how Chris Sabat originally voiced Vegeta in FUNimation's earlier DBZ stuff before they finally nailed down the character's smoother-sounding voice in the DBZ stuff of more recent times.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:19 pm 
Luna
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Afroeuvre wrote:


You're exaggerating. I can think of three other examples, max, where Amy says something that could arguably be classified as uncharacteristic or incongruent within the entirety of the DiC dub's 82 episode tenure


To be fair, Amy's uncharacteristic rudeness ended in about episode 7. But calling Serena's family wacko when the previous episode was all about people making judgments about her was pretty uncalled for. It would have been if Raye had said it.


I think Amy was patient but had her limits and wasn't above teasing (like making a joke she didnt have her mouth wide open like Serena)

Quote:
. And Rei’s a b*tch in both versions, but DiC was at least honest about it and didn't hide behind the fake facade of 'misunderstood/emotionally deep shrine maiden' that the sub did. It made for some refreshing scenes between Serena and herself at least.



I don't think she was a b*tch in either version she just clashed with Serena/Usagi. But I despite when people act like Raye was some token evil teammate and Rei was just slightly bossy. Purist snobs also act like Raye never had her sweet moments or something. Very rarely was Raye being mean in the dub but not in the Japanese original. I can think of like one example (and fans heavily exaggerate how bad it actually was) which was counter balanced by 7 episodes prior when Rei was being harsh and Raye was being apolegetic and understanding.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:43 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Afroeuvre wrote:

You're exaggerating. I can think of three other examples, max, where Amy says something that could arguably be classified as uncharacteristic or incongruent within the entirety of the DiC dub's 82 episode tenure and in spite of the flagrant dissonance between the aforementioned character's personality spoken dialogue, said dialogue was at least contextually appropriate and added realistic humour to the situation pushed the boundaries of the character's archetypical image. The "real" Ami was an uninteresting prude whose dialogue consisted of monotonous lectures on the importance of studying and boring expository info-dumps, as was part and parcel of the sub. She didn’t have much going for her. I like that the DiC dub took liberties with the dialogue because it unknowingly exemplified the unspoken dimensions inherent within the girls and added to the complexities that the original anime seldom bothered to accentuate as the series progressed. The DiC dub also, IMO, did a better job at emphasizing the friendship of the inner senshi because of the informal albeit dated '90s lingo, slang and dialogue utilized between them collectively, whereas they conversed in very formal and uppity tones in the original sub and that detracted from the fact that they were supposedly best friends, and teenage girls at that. There were some odd phraseology choices during the CWi era, and coupled with Balkan's delivery they made for some...interesting scenes, but I feel that DiC and Karen Bernstein's ferocious execution of her lines helped turned Amy into a heroic force to be reckoned with during the '90s :love: . And Rei’s a b*tch in both versions, but DiC was at least honest about it and didn't hide behind the fake facade of 'misunderstood/emotionally deep shrine maiden' that the sub did. It made for some refreshing scenes between Serena and herself at least.

It's interesting, though, to see the differences in terms of characterization between the dub and sub.
I don't think it's an exaggeration as it's a common practice for Americanized dubs to make characters ruder than they actually are. You saw this all the time in the 90s with dubs like Cardcaptors and the Digimon dub where everyone is made to be ten times ruder. Sailor Moon may have been tamer at it than most, but it was definitely there. In any case, as a fan of all the English dubs of Sailor Moon, it's always seemed strange to me how some fans will praise DiC for the extreme rewrites they did to their characters and the plot, yet will judge Viz for making a few original jokes about Mamorut's pants that don't actually change the story or characterization any.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:03 pm 
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How many people have ACTUALLY gone after the Viz dub for the added pants comments? Besides maybe the most hardcore of purist who aren't praising the DiC dub either.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:36 pm 
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My opinions (from at least what I've seen out of both dubs):

DiC is pretty alright for the first two seasons. Keeps a good 90s toon vibe with cheesiness, so it's pretty fun to look back and laugh upon for its flaws. Yep, it's got some glaring flaws, but it still does pretty good for what it's trying to do. Good music as well, especially stuff like Power of Love and Rainy Day Man which I hear still holds places enough in people's hearts to warrant spots in ringtones and iTunes libraries to this day. Then the next two seasons we adapted and weren't good. Like, at all. The voice acting was either dull or irritating, they didn't do very well either maintaining closeness to the original or editing anything for an audience, and it all just feels rushed overall. Because it was. LOOK IT UP.

Viz succeeds in what it attempts to do for the most part: making an uncut version that can be easily accepted by all, with some other stuff thrown in too. It's pretty faithful and overall a very well done adaptation - props to the VAs too for the great acting. However, that doesn't mean it itself is flawed too: I've noticed a couple areas where the script adapting doesn't exactly flow in the best fashion like in some speeches ("unforgivable" is a term commonly used in the series that I personally think flows better in the subs than in dubs, thanks), and there's some other miscellaneous areas that could use some improvement in general - you don't need to add the memes and cursing into our sailors' vocabularies to be Mr. Xx_EDGYANDMATURE27_xX. Otherwise, it's obviously the best way to introduce somebody to the series at the current moment in time - retains the characters and original story nicely enough for anyone to access it.

Anyone has their respective choices, but for this series I'm a sub guy at heart. I'm grown into the original Japanese VAs and their awesome performances, the catchy orchestral soundtrack that I find myself humming somehow, and nothing cut out makes for the best experience for guys like myself - I still enjoy and appreciate the choice of aspect of the Viz dub, which is obviously one of its succeeding I will admit that there's especially notable aspects of dubs that deserve mention on high levels like the aforementioned DiC soundtrack, and the unique and memorable performances from both adaptations' VAs which spice experiences up for both, but somehow the very original manages to topple its way up the mountain (while eveybody else somehow loses balance one way or another - don't we all?)to reach the tippiest top and do the finest IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:21 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
How many people have ACTUALLY gone after the Viz dub for the added pants comments? Besides maybe the most hardcore of purist who aren't praising the DiC dub either.
There has been a great deal of criticism of the Viz dub adding in funny jokes and how it doesn't respect the vision of the original writers and dates the dub with the added jokes. But I don't think it dates the dub any more so than the DiC version is dated by the cheesy valleygirl slang and plot rewrites.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:37 am 
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Afroeuvre wrote:
You're exaggerating. I can think of three other examples, max, where Amy says something that could arguably be classified as uncharacteristic or incongruent within the entirety of the DiC dub's 82 episode tenure and in spite of the flagrant dissonance between the aforementioned character's personality spoken dialogue, said dialogue was at least contextually appropriate and added realistic humour to the situation pushed the boundaries of the character's archetypical image. The "real" Ami was an uninteresting prude whose dialogue consisted of monotonous lectures on the importance of studying and boring expository info-dumps, as was part and parcel of the sub. She didn’t have much going for her. I like that the DiC dub took liberties with the dialogue because it unknowingly exemplified the unspoken dimensions inherent within the girls and added to the complexities that the original anime seldom bothered to accentuate as the series progressed. The DiC dub also, IMO, did a better job at emphasizing the friendship of the inner senshi because of the informal albeit dated '90s lingo, slang and dialogue utilized between them collectively, whereas they conversed in very formal and uppity tones in the original sub and that detracted from the fact that they were supposedly best friends, and teenage girls at that. There were some odd phraseology choices during the CWi era, and coupled with Balkan's delivery they made for some...interesting scenes, but I feel that DiC and Karen Bernstein's ferocious execution of her lines helped turned Amy into a heroic force to be reckoned with during the '90s :love: . And Rei’s a b*tch in both versions, but DiC was at least honest about it and didn't hide behind the fake facade of 'misunderstood/emotionally deep shrine maiden' that the sub did. It made for some refreshing scenes between Serena and herself at least.

It's interesting, though, to see the differences in terms of characterization between the dub and sub.


The problem is that it does not suit Ami's character AT ALL. I am all for adding some humor, BUT as long as the dialogue stays true to how the character is SUPPOSE to be, the REAL Ami would NEVER say something so rude and insulting outright. She is suppose to be shy, quiet, kind, sweet and polite, Ami has teased Usagi before, but in a much more subtle way. For example in the new Viz dub of Crystal, there was a scene at the end of season 3 when they all started high school and Rei then teased Usagi, it was suppose to be a comedic moment when the other Senshis teased Usagi about how they're surprised that she managed to graduate junior high, then Ami said something along the lines of "Rei you don't have to be so honest", which in turn was suppose to be an insult to Usagi but in a much more subtle and indirect way. In the original Japanese Toei dub of the same scene Ami said "people can do anything when they're desperate", again that was a a much more subtle and indirect way of insulting Usagi. That's how Ami is suppose to be like, yes sometimes Ami would still tease Usagi, but Ami does it in a much more subtle and indirect way and much less vulgar unlike Rei. Just outright rudely insulting Usagi by making that kind direct insult is exactly the kind of comment that you would expect the other characters especially Rei to say to Usagi, NOT Ami. If Rei had made that kind of insult to Usagi in that episode instead, then I would have no problems with it because that's exactly the kind of comment that I would expect Rei to say. And yes like others have mentioned, for Ami to call Usagi's family "wacko" was also another very uncalled for and misplaced insult on Ami's part, again the REAL Ami would never insult someone so directly, Rei yes, Ami no.

Look, I understand that some people like the cheesy humor in the 90s anime, but when the dialogues are so mismatched for the characters and so out of character, that's when I have a problem with it. Ami's character can still contribute to the humor and comedy, and she does sometimes, but her dialogue should also stay true to her character, and some of her dialogue in the DiC dub just wasn't true to her character. Ami has always been my favourite character so it really disappoints me that DiC butchered some of her lines in the dubs. And I don't think I am "exaggerating", because I have seen many other fans who also think DiC had butchered some of Ami's dialogue.

Neon Genesis wrote:
There has been a great deal of criticism of the Viz dub adding in funny jokes and how it doesn't respect the vision of the original writers and dates the dub with the added jokes. But I don't think it dates the dub any more so than the DiC version is dated by the cheesy valleygirl slang and plot rewrites.


I agree, I think the Viz dub has stayed a lot more true to the original than the DiC dubs ever did. I personally don't understand all the criticism for the funny jokes in the Viz dubs when the DiC dubs deviated so far away from the original that like someone had pointed out before, DiC's version was more like an adaptation, while Viz is basically an almost direct translation of the original.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:40 am 
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^Except nobody who attacked the Viz dub for added humor gave DiC dub a free pass. If they're critical of Viz straying away from the original dialog they're the same purist who have been critical of Dic. You guys are upset over a segment of the fandom that doesn't actually exist.




I just watched episode 26 of the Viz dub and was reminded of how weird the DiC episode was. Not in an "ugghh how dare it not be faithful to the original episode" but in a "those are some questionable adaptation choices"

Like


The DiC dub's unwillinglyness to call the priest a priest or acknowledge him as a minister outside of Zoycite calling him padre once. Like I bet most of the kids and all of the parents watching could figure out that he was a priest. No need to vaguely call him a kindly person.


Molly incorrectly saying the dark crystal was used to kill Nephlyte instead of "you killed Nephlyte over that stupid rock" or even the original "That belonged to Nephrite"


Nothing wrong with Raye wanting to be leader, since as far as she knows Serena is unreliable and borderline incompetent but Amy and Raye going on strike makes them look terrible.

And Serena and friends going to see the Sailor V the movie...the movie that was being animated like a month ago and its doubtful that it was completely finished and ready to hit theaters.

On the other hand against the Viz dub "Lovely punch" is just nonsense in English and Viz should have changed it to like "Mega punch"


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:21 am 
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SailorLinda1 wrote:
Afroeuvre wrote:

The problem is that it does not suit Ami's character AT ALL. I am all for adding some humor, BUT as long as the dialogue stays true to how the character is SUPPOSE to be, the REAL Ami would NEVER say something so rude and insulting outright. She is suppose to be shy, quiet, kind, sweet and polite, Ami has teased Usagi before, but in a much more subtle way. For example in the new Viz dub of Crystal, there was a scene at the end of season 3 when they all started high school and Rei then teased Usagi, it was suppose to be a comedic moment when the other Senshis teased Usagi about how they're surprised that she managed to graduate junior high, then Ami said something along the lines of "Rei you don't have to be so honest", which in turn was suppose to be an insult to Usagi but in a much more subtle and indirect way. In the original Japanese Toei dub of the same scene Ami said "people can do anything when they're desperate", again that was a a much more subtle and indirect way of insulting Usagi. That's how Ami is suppose to be like, yes sometimes Ami would still tease Usagi, but Ami does it in a much more subtle and indirect way and much less vulgar unlike Rei. Just outright rudely insulting Usagi by making that kind direct insult is exactly the kind of comment that you would expect the other characters especially Rei to say to Usagi, NOT Ami. If Rei had made that kind of insult to Usagi in that episode instead, then I would have no problems with it because that's exactly the kind of comment that I would expect Rei to say. And yes like others have mentioned, for Ami to call Usagi's family "wacko" was also another very uncalled for and misplaced insult on Ami's part, again the REAL Ami would never insult someone so directly, Rei yes, Ami no.

Look, I understand that some people like the cheesy humor in the 90s anime, but when the dialogues are so mismatched for the characters and so out of character, that's when I have a problem with it. Ami's character can still contribute to the humor and comedy, and she does sometimes, but her dialogue should also stay true to her character, and some of her dialogue in the DiC dub just wasn't true to her character. Ami has always been my favourite character so it really disappoints me that DiC butchered some of her lines in the dubs. And I don't think I am "exaggerating", because I have seen many other fans who also think DiC had butchered some of Ami's dialogue.

Neon Genesis wrote:
There has been a great deal of criticism of the Viz dub adding in funny jokes and how it doesn't respect the vision of the original writers and dates the dub with the added jokes. But I don't think it dates the dub any more so than the DiC version is dated by the cheesy valleygirl slang and plot rewrites.


I agree, I think the Viz dub has stayed a lot more true to the original than the DiC dubs ever did. I personally don't understand all the criticism for the funny jokes in the Viz dubs when the DiC dubs deviated so far away from the original that like someone had pointed out before, DiC's version was more like an adaptation, while Viz is basically an almost direct translation of the original.


You have a stringent and puritanical perception of Ami's character, and the slightest deviation away from this perceptibly inexorable idea of what you think her character should be constitutes hyperbolic dialogue "butchery". You're not Takeuchi and you don't number in the roster of creative producers that conceptualized the original anime and its translations and adaptations, so your assertions on what she would or would not say or is “supposed” to be like are invalid and incorrect. Characters should be dynamic and spasmodically versatile, and they shouldn't be suffocated by restrictive parameters pertaining to what they should or shouldn't do and be adhered to throughout the entirety of their existences. That's boring and uninspiring and makes for mediocre story-telling. It's why the inner senshi in the original anime are vapid and vacuous in comparison to their adapted DiC/CWi counter-parts because they hardly explore the boundaries of their archetypes and so their portrayal is predictable, typical and boring. And it is an exaggeration because 1. As I said before, there were only a handful of instances in which this erroneous behaviour is exhibited in Amy and 2. A handful of questionable instances does not a butchered character make. It's illogical to assert that a character isn't true because of a negligible amount of forgettable errors. You're acting as if Amy was spouting insults of the same kind in every other episode based on this one weak example, when...she wasn't. :eeklez:


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:30 am 
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Viz's humor is hit or miss for me, but I have an easier time overlooking their failed jokes due to the timing of them. They're always in light-hearted/goofy moments. DiC's jokes in those kind of moments never bothered me either. It's their instances of inappropriate humor that I found jarring, like Beryl's cavities joke during Usagi's battle with possessed! Endymion. It pulled me out of the moment, rather than adding to everything going on.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:31 am 
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SailorLinda1 wrote:
For example in the new Viz dub of Crystal, there was a scene at the end of season 3
WHAAAAAA?? :? :? :?

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:51 am 
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Afroeuvre wrote:
You have a stringent and puritanical perception of Ami's character, and the slightest deviation away from this perceptibly inexorable idea of what you think her character should be constitutes hyperbolic dialogue "butchery". You're not Takeuchi and you don't number in the roster of creative producers that conceptualized the original anime and its translations and adaptations, so your assertions on what she would or would not say or is “supposed” to be like are invalid and incorrect. Characters should be dynamic and spasmodically versatile, and they shouldn't be suffocated by restrictive parameters pertaining to what they should or shouldn't do and be adhered to throughout the entirety of their existences. That's boring and uninspiring and makes for mediocre story-telling. It's why the inner senshi in the original anime are vapid and vacuous in comparison to their adapted DiC/CWi counter-parts because they hardly explore the boundaries of their archetypes and so their portrayal is predictable, typical and boring. And it is an exaggeration because 1. As I said before, there were only a handful of instances in which this erroneous behaviour is exhibited in Amy and 2. A handful of questionable instances does not a butchered character make. It's illogical to assert that a character isn't true because of a negligible amount of forgettable errors. You're acting as if Amy was spouting insults of the same kind in every other episode based on this one weak example, when...she wasn't. :eeklez:


As an SM fan for many years who has read the manga and has watched almost every version of SM (except for the musicals), I think I have a pretty good understanding of what Ami's character is suppose to be like, maybe more so than you do. And sure I'm not Takeuchi, but the manga is Takeuchi's OWN work, and never was Ami so rude and so directly insulting in the manga, nor was she so insulting and rude in the original Japanese dub of the 90s anime, the Cloverway dubs, Viz dubs and Crystal either, only DiC gave Ami such insulting dialogues that were so out of her character. Did you ever read the manga? Or watch the original Japanese dub of the 90s anime and Crystal? If you have, then you should know that some of Ami's dialogue in the DiC dubs were so very unlike how her character is suppose to be like.
And you are not Takeuchi either, but the difference between me and you is that unlike you who seem to find any reason to excuse some of Ami's awful and out of character dialogue in DiC, I actually base my judgement according to how Ami was actually portrayed in the original manga, which is Takeuchi's OWN work and told through her OWN words, and according to the creator herself and how SHE portrayed Ami in the manga, Ami is suppose to be a shy, polite and sweet and kind person who does not directly insult people like that nor is she a vulgar person, that is not how Takeuchi herself had envisioned Ami to be like through her own work. And nor was she like that in any of the other versions of SM either, she only made such vulgar remarks in the DiC dubs. And yes, I do think those remarks about Usagi being a "stupid lovesick frog" and calling Usagi's family "wackos" rude and insulting especially for Ami's character. For Rei no, because Rei was portrayed as vulgar and she insulted Usagi all the time, those sorts of insults were exactly the kind of comments that I would expect Rei to say, NOT Ami.
But hey, if you think you know better than the creator herself, well then that's your own opinion.

And I never said that "all" of Ami's dialogues were butchered, just SOME of her dialogues in the DiC dubs were very out of character for her, yes they were just a "handful" of times, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. Like I said, I'm just disappointed with SOME of her dialogues in the DiC dubs.

I'm merely just voicing my own opinions here and I think DiC really butchered some of Ami's dialogue, gave her some lines that were so out of Ami's character and not how her character was suppose to be in the original manga and anime. If you're fine with it, then that's your opinion, but I'm not fine with it and that's my own opinion and I'm entitled to it.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:29 am 
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Sabrblade wrote:
WHAAAAAA?? :? :? :?


well that's just one example I gave. Another example is during the same scene I had mentioned before when Usagi was daydreaming about Tuxedo Mask and Motoki in season 1 during Rei's introductory ep in the 90s anime, in the Viz dub version Ami said "Usagi, both of us are too young to understand what love truly means, I don't think you should spend so much time on these fantasies". And in the original Japanese dub in the same scene Ami actually said "Usagi if you don't know what love is, then you shouldn't use the word love so lightly". So in that particular scene, Ami was suppose to just gently scold Usagi for daydreaming about love so much, she wasn't suppose to outright insult Usagi, unlike she did in the DiC dub.

There's also another moment in the 90s anime when Ami outright called Rei a "brat" in the DiC dubs, even though Rei really was behaving like a totally obnoxious and arrogant brat at the time. But calling Usagi a "stupid lovesick frog" and calling her family "wackos" was going too far for Ami's character and those times were uncalled for, and just not like Ami at all.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:00 am 
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Season 3 of Crystal has yet to be dubbed. That's what Sabrblade is getting at.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:32 pm 
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SailorLinda1 wrote:

As an SM fan for many years who has read the manga and has watched almost every version of SM (except for the musicals), I think I have a pretty good understanding of what Ami's character is suppose to be like, maybe more so than you do. And sure I'm not Takeuchi, but the manga is Takeuchi's OWN work, and never was Ami so rude and so directly insulting in the manga, nor was she so insulting and rude in the original Japanese dub of the 90s anime, the Cloverway dubs, Viz dubs and Crystal either, only DiC gave Ami such insulting dialogues that were so out of her character. Did you ever read the manga? Or watch the original Japanese dub of the 90s anime and Crystal? If you have, then you should know that some of Ami's dialogue in the DiC dubs were so very unlike how her character is suppose to be like.
And you are not Takeuchi either, but the difference between me and you is that unlike you who seem to find any reason to excuse some of Ami's awful and out of character dialogue in DiC, I actually base my judgement according to how Ami was actually portrayed in the original manga, which is Takeuchi's OWN work and told through her OWN words, and according to the creator herself and how SHE portrayed Ami in the manga, Ami is suppose to be a shy, polite and sweet and kind person who does not directly insult people like that nor is she a vulgar person, that is not how Takeuchi herself had envisioned Ami to be like through her own work. And nor was she like that in any of the other versions of SM either, she only made such vulgar remarks in the DiC dubs. And yes, I do think those remarks about Usagi being a "stupid lovesick frog" and calling Usagi's family "wackos" rude and insulting especially for Ami's character. For Rei no, because Rei was portrayed as vulgar and she insulted Usagi all the time, those sorts of insults were exactly the kind of comments that I would expect Rei to say, NOT Ami.
But hey, if you think you know better than the creator herself, well then that's your own opinion.

And I never said that "all" of Ami's dialogues were butchered, just SOME of her dialogues in the DiC dubs were very out of character for her, yes they were just a "handful" of times, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen. Like I said, I'm just disappointed with SOME of her dialogues in the DiC dubs.

I'm merely just voicing my own opinions here and I think DiC really butchered some of Ami's dialogue, gave her some lines that were so out of Ami's character and not how her character was suppose to be in the original manga and anime. If you're fine with it, then that's your opinion, but I'm not fine with it and that's my own opinion and I'm entitled to it.


She made a euphemistic comment on what Serena was doing at the time, and so the dialogue was changed, not butchered. It mightn't have been a word-for-word duplication of the sub but it was contextually appropriate and did not have as cataclysmic effect on her DiC character as you would like to think. Amy still managed to retain these sacrosanct attributes of shyness, sweetness, politeness and kindness in spite of these two inconsequential butchered lines of dialogue that, funnily enough, aren't points of contention where other fans are concerned in their criticism of the dub, so I fail to see why you've continued to stress a point that doesn't hold much water. And Takeuchi barely provided substantial development to characters that weren't Usagi, Chibi-Usa or Mamoru, something I'm sure you already were aware of, so I wouldn't set much store by what she portrayed Ami to be because aside from a couple of panels here and there, there's hardly any portrayal to be had, so it stands to reason that there is a lot to the respective senshi that we don't know about. It could be that making "vulgar" comments, was actually an attribute of Amy's standoffish personality before she properly got to know Serena and the rest of the girls but grew out of it because of character development, a term it seems you're not particularly familiar with.


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Afroeuvre wrote:
She made a euphemistic comment on what Serena was doing at the time, and so the dialogue was changed, not butchered. It mightn't have been a word-for-word duplication of the sub but it was contextually appropriate and did not have as cataclysmic effect on her DiC character as you would like to think. Amy still managed to retain these sacrosanct attributes of shyness, sweetness, politeness and kindness in spite of these two inconsequential butchered lines of dialogue that, funnily enough, aren't points of contention where other fans are concerned in their criticism of the dub, so I fail to see why you've continued to stress a point that doesn't hold much water. And Takeuchi barely provided substantial development to characters that weren't Usagi, Chibi-Usa or Mamoru, something I'm sure you already were aware of, so I wouldn't set much store by what she portrayed Ami to be because aside from a couple of panels here and there, there's hardly any portrayal to be had, so it stands to reason that there is a lot to the respective senshi that we don't know about. It could be that making "vulgar" comments, was actually an attribute of Amy's standoffish personality before she properly got to know Serena and the rest of the girls but grew out of it because of character development, a term it seems you're not particularly familiar with.


no it was not, it was an outright insult, plain and simple, and a very uncalled for insult that the REAL Ami would NEVER say, and if you had watched the original Japanese dub and the Viz dub version, in that particular scene, Ami was only merely suppose to scold Usagi about her daydreaming habits, she was NOT suppose to outright insult Usagi, especially not in such a vulgar way. And I have already posted what Ami actually said in the original Japanese dub and the Viz dub in my last post above, I suggest you read it if you haven't already. It's one thing to slightly modify a translation, and another thing to completely make up a dialogue that was totally different. And that's what DiC did, that insult Ami said to Usagi about her looking like a "stupid lovesick frog that's waiting for some big old bug to fly in its mouth" was just a downright awful line that DiC completely made up, it was NOT what Ami actually said in the original Japanese dub AT ALL, it's not even close. And neither was Ami calling Usagi's family "wackos" and Rei a "brat" in the original Japanese dub either, those were all just awful dialogues that DiC completely made up themselves, so yes, I consider that 'butchery', because those lines were NOT what Ami actually said in the original Japanese version AT ALL, they were just awful lines completely fabricated by DiC just to create some so called "humor" (which I did not find "funny" at all). And like have I emphasized many times before, those insults were totally unlike Ami, the REAL Ami would never say such rude and vulgar things, and those sorts of insulting dialogues were NOT what Takeuchi had envisioned Ami's character to say, the REAL Ami that the creator herself had envisioned in the manga and in the original Japanese version would NOT say such vulgar and rude remarks.
Let's face it, DiC just wanted to add some so called "comedy" so they just fabricated some lines as they went along even if it meant ignoring how those characters were suppose to be like in the originals. I understand that sometimes American companies need to change some things in order to make the product appeal more to the American audience, such as adding some more humor that appeals more to American kids. BUT there are still certain limits to how much I personally can tolerate in these english and International dubs. And giving Ami such rude and insulting dialogues that were so completely out of her character is one of those things that really disappointed me about the DiC dubs.

And it's not just Ami's character, DiC also ruined Rei's character for me, they made her character particularly bratty and arrogant and obnoxious in the DiC dubs, but the Rei in the original manga was much more mature and grounded, Rei was also less bratty and arrogant in the original Japanese dub for the 90s anime and in the Cloverway dubs also. Sure she still frequently argued with Usagi and got into petty fights with her in the original Japanese version and in the Cloverway & Viz dubs, but she was less bratty and rude in those versions compared to how she was in the DiC dubs. DiC made Rei especially bratty and arrogant and just downright obnoxious & annoying to me, I really dislike Rei in the DiC dubs, she's more tolerable and likable to me in the original manga and in almost all the other versions of SM, she only irritates me so much in the DiC dubs.

Look I don't want to continue arguing with you about this because I feel like we're just going around in circles here. If you have no problems with some of the dialogue that Ami's character had in the DiC dubs then that's fine, that's your opinion. But I feel differently and for me personally, some of the awful dialogue that Ami had in the DiC dubs were very unlike her character and that really disappointed me, and I am entitled to have my own opinion too. And it looks like neither of us would be able to change each other's opinions about this, so let's just agree to disagree and move on. I'm really getting tired of all this arguing.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:24 pm 
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
^Except nobody who attacked the Viz dub for added humor gave DiC dub a free pass. If they're critical of Viz straying away from the original dialog they're the same purist who have been critical of Dic. You guys are upset over a segment of the fandom that doesn't actually exist.
So I guess all the fans on the Viz Facebook page complaining about how much they hate the Viz dub because it's not like the DiC dub are all figments of my imagination?

Quote:
You have a stringent and puritanical perception of Ami's character, and the slightest deviation away from this perceptibly inexorable idea of what you think her character should be constitutes hyperbolic dialogue "butchery".
And you're being obnoxiously rude and childish about a disagreement over a cartoon.

Quote:
It could be that making "vulgar" comments, was actually an attribute of Amy's standoffish personality before she properly got to know Serena and the rest of the girls but grew out of it because of character development, a term it seems you're not particularly familiar with.
LOL what? So you completely diss Takeuchi's vision for Sailor Moon but make up a complete lie about Ami to justify DiC's radical rewrites? Wha? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Siiigh. No. The segment of the fandom that bashes Viz for going off script while praising Dic/Giving DiC a pass only exist in your imagination.


Yes there are Dic fans who hate the Viz dub because of the voices/Its not the DiC dub but they're not the ones complaining "Gah how dare Viz add a joke that wasn't in the original" that's the purist who hate DiC dub just as much if not far more so.


That's my point you're creating non-existent strawmen


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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:52 pm 
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LifeGaveMeLemons wrote:
Siiigh. No. The segment of the fandom that bashes Viz for going off script while praising Dic/Giving DiC a pass only exist in your imagination.


Yes there are Dic fans who hate the Viz dub because of the voices/Its not the DiC dub but they're not the ones complaining "Gah how dare Viz add a joke that wasn't in the original" that's the purist who hate DiC dub just as much if not far more so.


That's my point you're creating non-existent strawmen


Personally, I guess people let DiC pass for its initial purpose to simply adapt a thing to an American audience of young people, in addition to its nostalgia factors.

Viz dub's additions to the dialogue are okay by me, but some I don't exactly find that necessary - sometimes they just put in a bit of foul language just because, and things like that sorta pick on me. I know they're trying to show they're more mature, but they could easily leave it at just plain not leaving anything out IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:38 pm 
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I personally have seen some fans who criticise the Viz dubs but praise the DiC dubs though.

I think the Viz dubs are so much more faithful and loyal to the original Japanese versions than the DiC version ever was.

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 Post subject: Re: DiC vs. Viz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:52 pm 
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........


But have you actually seen people criticize the ViZ for addig dialog while praising DiC?


I have no clue why this is difficult for you and Neon. Of course there are fans that praise DiC while bashing Viz. I never said there wasn't. But their criticisms towad Viz are not because Viz strayed from the original script.


This isnt't difficult to understand..


You guys want to pretend there is some kind of hypocrisy in the fandom for those who like the DiC dub by creating false strawmen.


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