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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:19 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Neon Genesis wrote:
I thought it was a cute and funny episode, and between the Death Busters and Amazon Trio, I loved how much trouble Minako always gives the bad guys. The episode didn't seem any dumber than any of Minako's goofy adventures in the Sailor V manga which fans love to hype up yet attack the original anime for doing the same type of silly episodes.

Um the reason I didn't like the episode . Because Minako was purposely trying t o get her heart snacth.Not that it was a silly episode


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:13 am 
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Neon Genesis wrote:
Scwatk01 wrote:
I think someone mentioned it here already but I wish that Naru knew that Usagi was Sailor Moon. Like what the heck? Naru is Usagi's best friend and deserved to know that she was Sailor Moon. I felt extremely bad for both of them in episode 87 or 88 (I can't remember exactly which episode) where Naru is like "Usagi is everything ok? You weren't at school today. Do you want to tell me something?" And Usagi just kinda hesitates a little. Like she wanted to tell Naru about everything that was going on but at the same time she felt like she couldn't because Naru wouldn't understand.
I always got the impression from that episode that Naru did in fact figure out that Usagi was Sailor Moon but she knew Usagi had to keep it a secret, so she dropped it so not to worry her.

Sorry for the bump, was looking for somewhere to address this after my Sailor Moon R rewatch today. I believed Naru had it figured out pretty early on, probably around the Nephrite days. However, in episode 56 (Snow White) Usagi transforms about two feet away from Naru without being terribly discreet about it. Granted all the girls and Umino were tumbling around each other, but I doubt they all didn't notice Usagi loudly screaming her henshin phrase. Whatever suspicion Naru had was probably confirmed then, and Umino probably knew then too. Two episodes later at a Sailor Moon show they discuss how popular SM has become and Naru says, "we're proud of her, aren't we?" And Umino agrees. I think this shows that they had probably known who Usagi was, but they also understood it wasn't something Usagi wanted to discuss with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:45 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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These aren't frustrations at all but I would like to see some of these kinds of characters that could be used as villains. Something that looks like these. No modifications to what we already have, but just add in more.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... d3dddc.jpg

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/eld ... 0123002359

http://orig07.deviantart.net/8e6b/f/201 ... 5f7sxe.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 11:02 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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While this is an existing thing, I think dishing out my frustrations might be okay: mind you I'm only in S at the moment, but they're still notable.

- The Outers sometimes just DON'T DO ANYTHING but comment on things in some S episodes. Why did we even need them there watching everything for so many episodes in a row?
- Chibiusa's shtick is too repetitive in the R season - get into any danger or harm, she's a beacon to evil for goodness sake. Thankfully S made her into a better, more interesting character, and gave her something to give us some smiles with - Chibi Moon scuffles, and most importantly good ol' Hotaru.
- The breakup in Black Moon was the most unnecessary thing in the whole story - just King Endymion trying to be cool and seeing how strong a bond can be. And worst of all, Mamo himself acts like such a jerk towards Usagi, ESPECIALLY in episode 69's moments - that one's probably one of my least favorites in the series.
- Some guardian attacks seem all too powerful, but they only just so much as send the enemy into a daze so Moon can finish them off. Why didn't Thunder Dragon from 55 get used by Jupiter in 49 to one-hit-kill Falion? Better yet, why doesn't ANY OTHER SENSHI ATTACK work effectively to kill any baddie more often?
- I get so easily convoluted over how translation goes: "Silver Crystal" or "Ginzishou"? "Mask" or Kamen"? Eugial and Mimet, or Eudial and Mimete?
- We need more side character screentime! Some characters like Katarina from 42, Shinozaki from 49, and pretty much any unseen parents of the team could've been worthy of more character expansion, like Urawa (Ami's sorta boyfriend) did in season 1. Motoki, Naru, Haruna and Umino also deserve mention, as they were pretty prominent earlier, then are pretty much rarely seen despite being pretty enjoyable personalities.
- Why can't we all have a consistent level of quality in the filler episodes? Some are really well done like Nurse Minako, the tea ceremony in S, and episode 20 (the vacation one with the ghost), but others like the infamous dinosaur island (67), Artemis and the animal kingdom, and Naru x Umino in the love contest range wildly from meh to downright horrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:06 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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My recent frustrations are these, why the heck doesn't Itto Asanuma appear in Sailor Moon R: BlackMoon (the series which corresponds to second story arc of the manga). Also why isn't Mamoru in high school from the start of the classic anime?!

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:23 am 
Stella
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Lunatastic wrote:
While this is an existing thing, I think dishing out my frustrations might be okay: mind you I'm only in S at the moment, but they're still notable.

- The Outers sometimes just DON'T DO ANYTHING but comment on things in some S episodes. Why did we even need them there watching everything for so many episodes in a row?
- Chibiusa's shtick is too repetitive in the R season - get into any danger or harm, she's a beacon to evil for goodness sake. Thankfully S made her into a better, more interesting character, and gave her something to give us some smiles with - Chibi Moon scuffles, and most importantly good ol' Hotaru.
- The breakup in Black Moon was the most unnecessary thing in the whole story - just King Endymion trying to be cool and seeing how strong a bond can be. And worst of all, Mamo himself acts like such a jerk towards Usagi, ESPECIALLY in episode 69's moments - that one's probably one of my least favorites in the series.
- Some guardian attacks seem all too powerful, but they only just so much as send the enemy into a daze so Moon can finish them off. Why didn't Thunder Dragon from 55 get used by Jupiter in 49 to one-hit-kill Falion? Better yet, why doesn't ANY OTHER SENSHI ATTACK work effectively to kill any baddie more often?
- I get so easily convoluted over how translation goes: "Silver Crystal" or "Ginzishou"? "Mask" or Kamen"? Eugial and Mimet, or Eudial and Mimete?
- We need more side character screentime! Some characters like Katarina from 42, Shinozaki from 49, and pretty much any unseen parents of the team could've been worthy of more character expansion, like Urawa (Ami's sorta boyfriend) did in season 1. Motoki, Naru, Haruna and Umino also deserve mention, as they were pretty prominent earlier, then are pretty much rarely seen despite being pretty enjoyable personalities.
- Why can't we all have a consistent level of quality in the filler episodes? Some are really well done like Nurse Minako, the tea ceremony in S, and episode 20 (the vacation one with the ghost), but others like the infamous dinosaur island (67), Artemis and the animal kingdom, and Naru x Umino in the love contest range wildly from meh to downright horrible.

I actually adored the Dinosaur Island episode and to this day I do not understand the fan hatred of the episode. I also loved the other episodes you mentioned as well. The Dinosaur episode actually fits well for me because I have crossed over my Sailor Moon fanfiction with Zyuranger.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:12 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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MariaTenebre wrote:
I actually adored the Dinosaur Island episode and to this day I do not understand the fan hatred of the episode. I also loved the other episodes you mentioned as well. The Dinosaur episode actually fits well for me because I have crossed over my Sailor Moon fanfiction with Zyuranger.


That's alright by me, I respect your opinion: 67 was just so unrealistic and flawed to many people that it was hard to find anything that did justice. I personally thought it was meh at best.

In fact all the "bad" filler I listed was a meh standard to me: I just found too many flaws in them, and they somehow didn't click with me. My opinion still stands on the breakup, as it probably wildly is in the fandom - it makes me feel bad seeing unnecessary things Mamoru has done to Usagi.

But seriously, if you want bad filler episode 7 is the worst IMO ;3

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:49 am 
Stella
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Lunatastic wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
I actually adored the Dinosaur Island episode and to this day I do not understand the fan hatred of the episode. I also loved the other episodes you mentioned as well. The Dinosaur episode actually fits well for me because I have crossed over my Sailor Moon fanfiction with Zyuranger.


That's alright by me, I respect your opinion: 67 was just so unrealistic and flawed to many people that it was hard to find anything that did justice. I personally thought it was meh at best.

In fact all the "bad" filler I listed was a meh standard to me: I just found too many flaws in them, and they somehow didn't click with me. My opinion still stands on the breakup, as it probably wildly is in the fandom - it makes me feel bad seeing unnecessary things Mamoru has done to Usagi.

But seriously, if you want bad filler episode 7 is the worst IMO ;3

Well I don't see how the Dinosaur episode is any less realistic then any other fantastical thing in the series. This is basically a show about magical super heroines dealing with powerful fantasy enemies.

Also I do agree with you on the breakup arc. I never liked it. It was unnecessary and made little sense. However I do not think it is fair to blame Mamoru as he was only doing what he thought was best to save Usagi. That being said I completely agree the breakup arc in general was a blight on the 90s anime.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:56 am 
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^ actually you can blame Chiba, future Chiba for this poorly timed unnecessary ordeal
R the second half would have been a great opportunity to for usa and Chiba to further cement their relationship, and gain nurturing skills with chibiusa, of all the times to spring this "test" after being in a forbidden relationship on the moon dying then reincarnated with memory loss meeting again, getting their memories only to have Chiba become brainwashed, when he comes out of it before the Super Beryl battle he basically dies again but with Usagi's wish a second chance was made but at the cost of their memories again, going through the ali-en arc which ended with him getting his memory back now finally with all this behind them this break up arc happens and at the same time the black moon clan is searching for his daughter, yeah perfect time to emotionally scar your wife, the one who's job it is to protect earth from the forces of evil *claps* bravo endy

Are you sure Destiny wants them together because it looks like they spend more time separated by unfortunate circumstance the biggest being in Stars

S and SuperS is the only time their relationship is "stable" I use that loosely because I summed up their relationship at this point to: Chiba agreeing with whatever Usagi wants while Usagi ogles other handsome men

And we have wonderful romantic conversations for example:
Usagi: do you love me? Chiba: huh... oh.. yeah.. sure.

The heck is that? Look at her eyes and proclaim your so-called eternal love and devotion oh wait this is the same guy who's gonna be king of the earth and test himself because he's unsure of his relationship :| see why this guy annoys the Charles Dickens out of me, bah humbug to that ship

Yeah there's my sm frustration.

Man it felt good to let that out.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:23 am 
Stella
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Prince Rose wrote:
^ actually you can blame Chiba, future Chiba for this poorly timed unnecessary ordeal
R the second half would have been a great opportunity to for usa and Chiba to further cement their relationship, and gain nurturing skills with chibiusa, of all the times to spring this "test" after being in a forbidden relationship on the moon dying then reincarnated with memory loss meeting again, getting their memories only to have Chiba become brainwashed, when he comes out of it before the Super Beryl battle he basically dies again but with Usagi's wish a second chance was made but at the cost of their memories again, going through the ali-en arc which ended with him getting his memory back now finally with all this behind them this break up arc happens.

Are you sure Destiny wants them together because it looks like they spend more time separated by unfortunate circumstance the biggest being in Stars

S and SuperS is the only time their relationship is "stable" I use that loosely because it's more like Chiba agreeing with whatever Usagi wants, Usagi: do you love me? Chiba: huh... oh.. yeah.. sure.

The heck is that? Look at her eyes and proclaim your so-called eternal love and devotion oh wait this is the same guy who's gonna be king of the earth and test himself because he's unsure of his relationship :| see why this guy annoys the Charles Dickens out of me, bah humbug to that ship

Yeah there's my sm frustration.

Man it felt good to let that out.

Actually they are only really separate in the first season, part of R and Sailor Stars. During S and SuperS they are together and we see them grow as a couple. Also while I do not like the breakup arc I have heard explanations for it. Such as how King Endymion did what he did to prepare Usagi for being alone in Sailor Stars when he would have been dead and also to focus attention on Chibiusa. Also their relationship is very stable in S and SuperS and Mamoru shows his love for Usagi many times. When Usagi feels insecure in her relationship Mamoru is always there to tell her that he loves her just the way she is. Also King Endymion was never unsure of his relationship with Usagi he just wanted to show Usagi and Mamoru at this time that their love was strong and as I also said in the headcanon article I read to prepare her for his death. Over all Usagi and Mamoru have shown themselves to be a very loving and stable couple in spite of the issues they face.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:31 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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MariaTenebre wrote:
Also I do agree with you on the breakup arc. I never liked it. It was unnecessary and made little sense. However I do not think it is fair to blame Mamoru as he was only doing what he thought was best to save Usagi. That being said I completely agree the breakup arc in general was a blight on the 90s anime.


Come to think of it, you make a good point: Mamo at least did his best to keep Usagi safe, but the problem is he didn't have to be so harsh at times about it. \>_</

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:35 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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Lunatastic wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
Also I do agree with you on the breakup arc. I never liked it. It was unnecessary and made little sense. However I do not think it is fair to blame Mamoru as he was only doing what he thought was best to save Usagi. That being said I completely agree the breakup arc in general was a blight on the 90s anime.


Come to think of it, you make a good point: Mamo at least did his best to keep Usagi safe, but the problem is he didn't have to be so harsh at times about it. \>_</

Honestly with that story line, I go meta and skip over blaming characters and go straight for blaming the writers. A break-up storyline isn't bad, in general, if it is treated right. But is was poorly developed and poorly finished that it just ruins R for me. I try skipping over all the stuff, but it hurts the episodes.


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:17 am 
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Lots of things frustrate me about Sailor Moon. In no particular order:

1) I love the SuperS movie, but it would have been cool to see Ikuhara's original concept with the black Pegasus, Neptune asleep at the end of the world, etc., so it's frustrating we'll never see that beyond Utena. Related: it frustrates me that the first season and Sailor Stars never got movies.

2) A common one: the break-up arc in R frustrates me, as does the lack of Outers in SuperS (and even Sailor Stars, for that matter).

3) Some of the Sera Myu musicals were never released on home video, while others like the beloved Dracul musicals only had VHS releases. :angry:

4) This frustrates me more and more as time goes on: the old DiC dub for the 90s anime isn't available anymore. I still like it purely out of nostalgia and the voice actors.

5) Speaking of voice actors, it really frustrates me that everyone except Usagi was recast in Crystal. These roles are so iconic and these actors are mostly all still working in the industry. Some of them are doing a great job (Jupiter, all four of the Outers) but others like Mars, Mercury, and Venus are kind of bland. I think this is an even bigger problem in the new Viz dub.

6) The big one...the fandom itself frustrates me. Moon Chase still exists. SOS existed. We have hate blogs that are still up and running dedicated to pointing out every single flaw in Crystal (yet none for the 90s anime). This board has experienced so much drama and BS over the years (but I guess any long-running forum has seen much the same). The fights that I've witnessed have been so brutal, they make me feel like removing myself from the fandom (which is one reason why I took such a long hiatus here). People who like the 90s DiC dub have historically been ostracized by the fandom at large, even those of us who admit to thinking the Japanese version is obviously superior. The fandom is so allergic to anything new or different or something that goes against their expectations, like PGSM and how so many people were hating on it back in 2004 or so (it's only gotten really popular and well-received in the fandom within the last couple of years, in my opinion). People aren't able to control their reactions when it comes to Crystal and it happens on BOTH sides -- some people who don't like Crystal lash out pretty severely against people who dare say one positive thing about the show, while some people who do like Crystal take every critical remark way too personally (I'm guilty of this myself, I can admit it). It seems like very few people actually hold a fair, balanced perspective on Crystal and can actually give both pros and cons without injecting their own expectations or desires into the conversation.

Honestly, it's mostly the last one. We're a very divided fandom and that is sad.

And I guess this is mostly about the Internet in general, but: 7) I'm frustrated that Sailor Moon fan sites and character shrines don't really exist anymore. We have Tumblrs but those really aren't the same thing. Back in the day, fans built their own websites dedicated to their favorite characters and many of them were beautiful and creative. They often featured stunning works of art (both fanart and altered official art) as well as insightful essays. I miss these old-school fan sites!

8 ) Princess Sailor Moon from PGSM. Ugh.

9) Fukano Moon exists even as concept art. It's so hideous!

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:26 pm 
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I honestly don't get the hate Moon Chase is still getting. I can understand it a couple of years ago but not now I think people should just move on.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:48 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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John wrote:
Lots of things frustrate me about Sailor Moon. In no particular order:

1) I love the SuperS movie, but it would have been cool to see Ikuhara's original concept with the black Pegasus, Neptune asleep at the end of the world, etc., so it's frustrating we'll never see that beyond Utena. Related: it frustrates me that the first season and Sailor Stars never got movies.

2) A common one: the break-up arc in R frustrates me, as does the lack of Outers in SuperS (and even Sailor Stars, for that matter).

3) Some of the Sera Myu musicals were never released on home video, while others like the beloved Dracul musicals only had VHS releases. :angry:

4) This frustrates me more and more as time goes on: the old DiC dub for the 90s anime isn't available anymore. I still like it purely out of nostalgia and the voice actors.

5) Speaking of voice actors, it really frustrates me that everyone except Usagi was recast in Crystal. These roles are so iconic and these actors are mostly all still working in the industry. Some of them are doing a great job (Jupiter, all four of the Outers) but others like Mars, Mercury, and Venus are kind of bland. I think this is an even bigger problem in the new Viz dub.

6) The big one...the fandom itself frustrates me. We have hate blogs that are still up and running dedicated to pointing out every single flaw in Crystal (yet none for the 90s anime). The fandom is so allergic to anything new or different or something that goes against their expectations, like PGSM and how so many people were hating on it back in 2004 or so (it's only gotten really popular and well-received in the fandom within the last couple of years, in my opinion). People aren't able to control their reactions when it comes to Crystal and it happens on BOTH sides -- some people who don't like Crystal lash out pretty severely against people who dare say one positive thing about the show, while some people who do like Crystal take every critical remark way too personally (I'm guilty of this myself, I can admit it). It seems like very few people actually hold a fair, balanced perspective on Crystal and can actually give both pros and cons without injecting their own expectations or desires into the conversation.

Honestly, it's mostly the last one. We're a very divided fandom and that is sad.

And I guess this is mostly about the Internet in general, but: 7) I'm frustrated that Sailor Moon fan sites and character shrines don't really exist anymore. We have Tumblrs but those really aren't the same thing. Back in the day, fans built their own websites dedicated to their favorite characters and many of them were beautiful and creative. They often featured stunning works of art (both fanart and altered official art) as well as insightful essays. I miss these old-school fan sites!

8) Princess Sailor Moon from PGSM. Ugh.

9) Fukano Moon exists even as concept art. It's so hideous!


John, out of all the frustrations you listed, I happen to agree with # 2, 5, 6, 8, & 9.

On #2, I'll admit I haven't gone past the first half of season two (the Doom Tree arc), so I have no opinion on the break-up arc. I, too, am upset that the Outer Senshi play a nonexistent role in SuperS!

On #5, I'll say that recasting everyone but Usagi doesn't really feel fair. Why does Kotono Mitsuishi get to be only one to return? Tohru Furuya, Keiko Han, Aya Hisakawa, Michie Tomizawa, Emi Shinohara, Rica Fukami, Megumi Ogata, etc. are as iconic she is. Though, I will say this, Ai Maeda, Ami Koshimizu, Junko Minagawa, and Sayaka Ohara did a fantastic job. Regarding the English voice cast, I think that the Dic/Cloverway dub had more than one voice actor for certain characters. For instance, Tracey Moore, Terri Hawkes, and Linda Ballantyne all provided the voice for Serena. Stephanie Sheh, however, is the voice of Usagi. I'm a little mixed on the English dub.

On #6, I definitely have to agree w/ you on this. We are all Sailor Moon fans and we all need to come together! Each and every version of Sailor Moon has its merits and flaws. The Dic/Cloverway dub isn't all that bad. Neither is PGSM. Crystal is OK, for the most part. All of them have one thing in common: They're ALL adaptations of the same story. I would like to see someone write a review of Crystal that is a constructive criticism of the series.

On #8, I actually have mixed opinion of Princess Sailor Moon. On one hand, I love the design of the outfit. On the other hand, I'm not entirely fond her pesronality, at all. She is too obsessed with the prince of Earth, to the point of harming innocent bystanders and caring about others.

On #9, Fukano's design of Eternal Sailor Moon would look a little better if it had the Sailor collar.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:36 am 
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1. Not a fan of how inconsequential and generally underutilized the inner senshi are in the original subbed anime, and how incompetent they're presented to be 85% of the time—something that was especially made clear in certain segments of Stars. They also collectively and individually come across as vapid and vacuous. Despite the generous apportions of individual episodes accorded to each senshi, I feel like the writers hardly made any attempts at making these girls complex characters with endearing/compelling characters traits. They don't really substantially develop at all over the span of 200 episodes and are essentially the same people from season 1 to season 5. A lot of the time whilst watching the subbed version, they came across as receptacles for (boring) plot exposition and inconsequential comments that did nothing to develop their characters and contribute to the plot in substantial ways except in circumstances that were few and far in-between. It's why I love PGSM because the girls are significant in a way that doesn't overshadow Usagi's importance and idiosyncrasies as a characters, and they’re given the depth, love and attention that I feel the original anime shied away from giving too much of and it makes for a delectable combination.

2. The Outers are some of the most annoying anime characters I've ever had the displeasure of encountering.

3. Kind of similar to 1, but I don't like how the movies (save for R, to a CERTAIN extent) discarded the inners so easily. I mean R was predominantly about Darien and that alien guy, then S was about Luna and the space fanatic, and Super S was about Rini and Peruru, with inners only serving as filler foil to push the story along. I really don't appreciate the perceived neglect. It would have been nice if, had there been a Classic movie, that it focused entirerly on Usagi, Ami, Mako, Rei and Mina and not some boring male protagonist/antagonist. :unsure: :smug:

4. A lot of surprisingly poor filler episodes.


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:31 am 
Luna
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I'm glad you agree, Usagi-Fifth-Doctor! Princess Sailor Moon definitely has a great outfit, but I agree re: the personality.

kikyo hino wrote:
I honestly don't get the hate Moon Chase is still getting. I can understand it a couple of years ago but not now I think people should just move on.


If they've apologized for some of the stunts they've pulled in the past, then I'll forgive them...but until then, I still have some pretty harsh feelings about them, even if it was all a long time ago. I don't like their overly inflated opinions of themselves. They give themselves far too much credit for Sailor Moon's "return" in the west and overall, they just annoy me. The fact that Moon Chase was started by someone from SOS says it all.

You're right, I should just move on -- but I can't help but be annoyed at their self-importance and delusions of grandeur.

Afroeuvre wrote:
1. Not a fan of how inconsequential and generally underutilized the inner senshi are in the original subbed anime, and how incompetent they're presented to be 85% of the time—something that was especially made clear in certain segments of Stars. They also collectively and individually come across as vapid and vacuous. Despite the generous apportions of individual episodes accorded to each senshi, I feel like the writers hardly made any attempts at making these girls complex characters with endearing/compelling characters traits. They don't really substantially develop at all over the span of 200 episodes and are essentially the same people from season 1 to season 5. A lot of the time whilst watching the subbed version, they came across as receptacles for (boring) plot exposition and inconsequential comments that did nothing to develop their characters and contribute to the plot in substantial ways except in circumstances that were few and far in-between. It's why I love PGSM because the girls are significant in a way that doesn't overshadow Usagi's importance and idiosyncrasies as a characters, and they’re given the depth, love and attention that I feel the original anime shied away from giving too much of and it makes for a delectable combination.

2. The Outers are some of the most annoying anime characters I've ever had the displeasure of encountering.

3. Kind of similar to 1, but I don't like how the movies (save for R, to a CERTAIN extent) discarded the inners so easily. I mean R was predominantly about Darien and that alien guy, then S was about Luna and the space fanatic, and Super S was about Rini and Peruru, with inners only serving as filler foil to push the story along. I really don't appreciate the perceived neglect. It would have been nice if, had there been a Classic movie, that it focused entirerly on Usagi, Ami, Mako, Rei and Mina and not some boring male protagonist/antagonist. :unsure: :smug:

4. A lot of surprisingly poor filler episodes.


1. I agree about the Inners! I love them and I do think they have "endearing" personalities in the 90s anime, but it's true that they don't grow and change over the course of the series. People love to say they have so much "development" in the 90s anime when comparing them to their versions in Crystal, but what these people are trying to say is that the 90s anime Inners have more "character moments" than the Crystal Inners do. You're right -- they don't grow and change. I 100% disagree about them coming across as vapid and vacuous, though. Their personalities are fun and engaging. I wish they were my friends in real life.

2. Disagree 100% :P I think the Outers are fantastic and I strive to be as elegant, graceful, and educated as they are. Hotaru recites poetry and quotes Albert Einstein at a young age, Setsuna is a physics student with dreams of designing fashion, Haruka is a world-famous racecar driver with ambiguous gender presentation, and Michiru is a world-famous violinist/painter. They're beautiful, smart, talented, and rich. <3 (Also they have helicopters!)

3. Sailor Moon is an ensemble/team show, with Sailor Moon (and I guess Chibi Moon/Tuxedo Mask) in the spotlight. A "Classic" movie probably would have featured the entire team, but the R movie is all about the show's main relationship, while the S movie focuses on Luna and the SuperS movie focuses on Chibiusa. That doesn't make the movies bad, and I know you're not saying they're bad -- but the Inners really aren't the main characters. I wish more fans could realize this.

4. There are indeed a lot of poor filler episodes, but there are a lot of good filler episodes too!

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:20 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Honestly, I wish Naoko and Toei took a "less is more" approach with the villains of the story. There's waaaaay too many villains and only a few of them are any good.

So many of the villains are just copies of each other or lack any discernible personality. In the manga, there is literally nothing distinguishing the Ayakashi Sisters from the Witches 5. While the anime corrects this by trying to give them personalities, we have very little idea of some of these characters' motivations or backstories. What is exactly is the point of Saphir as a character in the manga's story? Or Kaolinite who is literally Emeraude Pt.2? Why do certain villains get redeemed in the original anime when they're clearly awful, whereas more likeable characters like Eudial get killed off??

But the worst thing about villains in the Sailor Moon series is how ineffectual they are to the point of being dumb. There's a law in the '90s anime where villains can't put 2+2 together unless they're at the episode where they're going to get killed off. While in the manga, they're either spending pages cackling about their evil plans while doing nothing or they appear for one chapter only to be unceremoniously killed off a few panels later.

Lastly, even if you look at the most iconic villain of the series, Queen Beryl... Her motivation is so poorly put together in every incarnation. Like I can't seem to care enough that she's in love with Endymion. It's not interesting and it's done to death. I've been rejected too. Does that mean I'm suddenly going to cause massive planetary genocide?


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:45 pm 
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Seira Hazuki wrote:
Honestly, I wish Naoko and Toei took a "less is more" approach with the villains of the story. There's waaaaay too many villains and only a few of them are any good.

So many of the villains are just copies of each other or lack any discernible personality. In the manga, there is literally nothing distinguishing the Ayakashi Sisters from the Witches 5. While the anime corrects this by trying to give them personalities, we have very little idea of some of these characters' motivations or backstories. What is exactly is the point of Saphir as a character in the manga's story? Or Kaolinite who is literally Emeraude Pt.2? Why do certain villains get redeemed in the original anime when they're clearly awful, whereas more likeable characters like Eudial get killed off??

But the worst thing about villains in the Sailor Moon series is how ineffectual they are to the point of being dumb. There's a law in the '90s anime where villains can't put 2+2 together unless they're at the episode where they're going to get killed off. While in the manga, they're either spending pages cackling about their evil plans while doing nothing or they appear for one chapter only to be unceremoniously killed off a few panels later.

Lastly, even if you look at the most iconic villain of the series, Queen Beryl... Her motivation is so poorly put together in every incarnation. Like I can't seem to care enough that she's in love with Endymion. It's not interesting and it's done to death. I've been rejected too. Does that mean I'm suddenly going to cause massive planetary genocide?


Well, firstly one could distinguish the Spectre Sisters from the Witches 5 on numbers alone. The sisters were sent to invade the planet while the witches were gathering souls to sacrifice to Pharaoh 90. Secondly the sisters countered Senshi because they had similar powers, while the witches countered the senshi by using the Senshi's hobbies and interests.

Now as far as ineffectual is concerned, I don't recall the 90s anime villains being any better. People keep forgetting that in the manga, villains like the sister, witches, and trio were the MOTW. Is it important to know the backstory of youma like Morga, or Thetis?

And as for Beryl being the iconic villain, that is completely opinion based. Not everyone sees her as Sailor Moon's iconic villain. Also, people take rejection very differently and some people are not entirely emotionally stable. One person might be rejected and learned to cope with it, while someone else might be completely torn apart and would do anything to make the pain stop. People are just different.


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:49 pm 
Solaris Luna
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One of my frustrations is how the official profiles Naoko gave the characters have virtually zero correspondence to the manga:

1. Usagi's favorite class is home economics, but (in both the manga and anime, but perhaps one more than the other) we see she is terrible at cooking and sewing, so how/why is it her favorite class? We see her frequently doodling, she helps Chibiusa make the Holy Grail, and she joins the manga club at school, so art should be her favorite class.

2. Ami's favorite class is math, but we always see her using computers and her dream is to be a doctor, so....shouldn't SCIENCE be her favorite subject?

3. Mamoru wants to be a doctor, and he has pierced ears, yet he's apparently afraid of needles???

4. Speaking of fears/weaknesses....what's up with Michiru and sea cucumbers???

5. Setsuna's special skill is sewing and her dream is to be a fashion designer....yet when we meet her, she's a physics major who later becomes a school nurse.

The first four are arguably whatever, but the Setsuna thing.... It's like there are two different Naokos: the one who wrote the manga and the one who wrote the character profiles.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:16 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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knowall7 wrote:
Seira Hazuki wrote:
Honestly, I wish Naoko and Toei took a "less is more" approach with the villains of the story. There's waaaaay too many villains and only a few of them are any good.

S??

But the worst thing about villains in the Sailor Moon series is how ineffectual they are to the point of being dumb. There's a law in the '90s anime where villains can't put 2+2 together unless they're at the episode where they're going to get killed off. While in the manga, they're either spending pages cackling about their evil plans while doing nothing or they appear for one chapter only to be unceremoniously killed off a few panels later.

Lastly, even if you look at the most iconic villain of the series, Queen Beryl... Her motivation is so poorly put together in every incarnation. Like I can't seem to care enough that she's in love with Endymion. It's not interesting and it's done to death. I've been rejected too. Does that mean I'm suddenly going to cause massive planetary genocide?


Well, firstly one could distinguish the Spectre Sisters from the Witches 5 on numbers alone. The sisters were sent to invade the planet while the witches were gathering souls to sacrifice to Pharaoh 90. Secondly the sisters countered Senshi because they had similar powers, while the witches countered the senshi by using the Senshi's hobbies and interests.

Now as far as ineffectual is concerned, I don't recall the 90s anime villains being any better. People keep forgetting that in the manga, villains like the sister, witches, and trio were the MOTW. Is it important to know the backstory of youma like Morga, or Thetis?

And as for Beryl being the iconic villain, that is completely opinion based. Not everyone sees her as Sailor Moon's iconic villain. Also, people take rejection very differently and some people are not entirely emotionally stable. One person might be rejected and learned to cope with it, while someone else might be completely torn apart and would do anything to make the pain stop. People are just different.

I think it can aslo be noted that the old anime was a weekly series. While the original manga was monthly . There is no way to give every character equal development.


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:52 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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knowall7 wrote:
Well, firstly one could distinguish the Spectre Sisters from the Witches 5 on numbers alone. The sisters were sent to invade the planet while the witches were gathering souls to sacrifice to Pharaoh 90. Secondly the sisters countered Senshi because they had similar powers, while the witches countered the senshi by using the Senshi's hobbies and interests.

Now as far as ineffectual is concerned, I don't recall the 90s anime villains being any better. People keep forgetting that in the manga, villains like the sister, witches, and trio were the MOTW. Is it important to know the backstory of youma like Morga, or Thetis?

And as for Beryl being the iconic villain, that is completely opinion based. Not everyone sees her as Sailor Moon's iconic villain. Also, people take rejection very differently and some people are not entirely emotionally stable. One person might be rejected and learned to cope with it, while someone else might be completely torn apart and would do anything to make the pain stop. People are just different.


1) They're honestly not that different regardless of what their origins are or how many of them there are. Everything about the Witches 5 and Ayakashi Sisters in the manga is incredibly formulaic. Regardless of how different their methods are, they're essentially act as 'evil versions' of the Inners, but the manga doesn't explore this enough to make it interesting. They're just the same character with different appearances, powers and hobbies. We have no idea why the Ayakashi Sisters even joined the Black Moon Clan... And while it's interesting the Witches 5 were created by Tomoe, it's just random trivia that never gets explored.

(Plus why is it that both the Black Moon Clan and Death Busters just so happen to have soldiers that are color coded with similar powers and interests as the Inners? It's weirder for the Death Busters as they don't even seem to be aware of the senshi...)

2) You clearly didn't read my post properly because I was including the '90s anime with this. The funny thing is we had more backstory and personality for Thetis (she's one of Beryl's youma who was in love with Jaedite) than some of the villains in the manga. Besides, Naoko showed that she can create interesting villains that only appear for a short time; see Sailor Lethe and Sailor Mnemosyne. If Naoko cut down the amount of villains, then perhaps she would have been able to develop them more. You're not going to tell me that Emeraude, Saphir and Rubeus were MOTW too?

3) Beryl would be a more interesting character if either the anime or manga explored some kind of emotional instability, but it doesn't. All we know is that she liked Endymion in the past which made her go evil and bad. Any interesting bits like her trying to usurp Metalia is just exposition that goes nowhere. Her character is so frustrating to me because there's so much that can be done, but neither anime or manga explores it. It doesn't help that she literally never does anything except sit on her throne until the very last episode / chapter.

imaginationgirl wrote:
I think it can aslo be noted that the old anime was a weekly series. While the original manga was monthly . There is no way to give every character equal development.


There are plenty of monthly manga series that do a better job of developing their characters than Sailor Moon does. Naoko's problem is that she introduces too many characters in a story that's so crowded. The original anime has a similar issue with introducing too many filler characters and eventually forgetting about them after their story is done. There's so many other magical girl series that handles this so much better.


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:28 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Seira Hazuki wrote:
knowall7 wrote:
Well, firstly one could distinguish the Spectre Sisters from the Witches 5 on numbers alone. The sisters were sent to invade the planet while the witches were gathering souls to sacrifice to Pharaoh 90. Secondly the sisters countered Senshi because they had similar powers, while the witches countered the senshi by using the Senshi's hobbies and interests.

Now as far as ineffectual is concerned, I don't recall the 90s anime villains being any better. People keep forgetting that in the manga, villains like the sister, witches, and trio were the MOTW. Is it important to know the backstory of youma like Morga, or Thetis?

And as for Beryl being the iconic villain, that is completely opinion based. Not everyone sees her as Sailor Moon's iconic villain. Also, people take rejection very differently and some people are not entirely emotionally stable. One person might be rejected and learned to cope with it, while someone else might be completely torn apart and would do anything to make the pain stop. People are just different.


1) They're honestly not that different regardless of what their origins are or how many of them there are. Everything about the Witches 5 and Ayakashi Sisters in the manga is incredibly formulaic. Regardless of how different their methods are, they're essentially act as 'evil versions' of the Inners, but the manga doesn't explore this enough to make it interesting. They're just the same character with different appearances, powers and hobbies. We have no idea why the Ayakashi Sisters even joined the Black M
imaginationgirl wrote:
I think it can aslo be noted that the old anime was a weekly series. While the original manga was monthly . There is no way to give every character equal development.


There are plenty of monthly manga series that do a better job of developing their characters than Sailor Moon does. Naoko's problem is that she introduces too many characters in a story that's so crowded. The original anime has a similar issue with introducing too many filler characters and eventually forgetting about them after their story is done. There's so many other magical girl series that handles this so much better.

But your forgetting two things here. The manga and anime startedd around the same time . Meaning Naoko each month would have to make a plot chapter each month . For something the 90 s anime can use , or adapt . In that case was making side monster of the week characters into semi recurring villains. To stretch out the story to make a semi long season. The other thing goes with the anime , and manga . Not every character is meant to be a reccuring one , or have big role . Some are meant to be minor , or one shots . It dosen't make it bad , its just how certain stories are set up.


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:54 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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imaginationgirl wrote:
But your forgetting two things here. The manga and anime startedd around the same time . Meaning Naoko each month would have to make a plot chapter each month . For something the 90 s anime can use , or adapt . In that case was making side monster of the week characters into semi recurring villains. To stretch out the story to make a semi long season. The other thing goes with the anime , and manga . Not every character is meant to be a reccuring one , or have big role . Some are meant to be minor , or one shots . It dosen't make it bad , its just how certain stories are set up.


Where did I say that her villains should be recurring ones? My whole point is that there are a ton of villains that aren't memorable or serve any purpose. You don't need to write 10 chapters on a character for them to have impact on the story. For example, Yuri On Ice introduces a ton of characters, some that only appear for a total of 10 minutes, but it does a good job of making sure each character feels well rounded. In Sailor Moon, we get a ton of characters that are evil for the sake of evil without much interesting backgrounds to them and they feel flat because of it. If that's what Naoko wanted to write, whatever, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's good. This is the frustrations thread, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:35 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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Guys, quit your arguments! Shouldn't we all have our own personal opinions here?

Personally, I'd say even if they're evil at least they all had certain traits to them. Jadeite has the least amount of character to him out of all the villains in the anime, so I could say that I have a frustration of not having him being expanded upon unlike e rest of the villains in the series. That also probably goes for Metalia.

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:55 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Seira Hazuki wrote:
imaginationgirl wrote:
But your forgetting two things here. The manga and anime startedd around the same time . Meaning Naoko each month would have to make a plot chapter each month . For something the 90 s anime can use , or adapt . In that case was making side monster of the week characters into semi recurring villains. To stretch out the story to make a semi long season. The other thing goes with the anime , and manga . Not every character is meant to be a reccuring one , or have big role . Some are meant to be minor , or one shots . It dosen't make it bad , its just how certain stories are set up.


In Sailor Moon, we get a ton of characters that are evil for the sake of evil without much interesting backgrounds to them and they feel flat because of it. If that's what Naoko wanted to write, whatever, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's good. This is the frustrations thread, no?

Um Seri i'm sorry if I offended you . But I wasn't trying to say you had to like it . I was just saying my opinion that s all. I just think how it was set up , or how it was plan. There was no way to make them all equal develope characters. I wasn't trying to attack you . :unsure:


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:14 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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After some time, with my venting on Stars, I've got time to think and I figured out that I don't want Stars gone. It had some great ideas and concepts. Other senshi, Sailor Cosmos, the Galaxy Cauldron, etc. But their was not enough expanded on it. I am still annoyed that Usagi's lover and friends were killed off so poorly and then there are these issues about not expanding good ideas, BUT I am no longer condemning the arc because the concepts are still good, regardless that they are expanded on.


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:47 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Seira Hazuki wrote:
Where did I say that her villains should be recurring ones? My whole point is that there are a ton of villains that aren't memorable or serve any purpose. You don't need to write 10 chapters on a character for them to have impact on the story. For example, Yuri On Ice introduces a ton of characters, some that only appear for a total of 10 minutes, but it does a good job of making sure each character feels well rounded. In Sailor Moon, we get a ton of characters that are evil for the sake of evil without much interesting backgrounds to them and they feel flat because of it. If that's what Naoko wanted to write, whatever, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's good. This is the frustrations thread, no?


The lack of characterization for the villains in the manga is odd, too, because from the Materials Collection we can see she had some really interesting ideas for at least some of them (like Heavy Metal Papillon having a child and being a samba dancer, or Hawk's Eye wanting to be a bartender in Vegas). It makes me wonder why she didn't follow through with those ideas. Did Osabu talk her out of them? Did her vision change that much that quickly? I guess we'll never know...

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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:10 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
Seira Hazuki wrote:
Where did I say that her villains should be recurring ones? My whole point is that there are a ton of villains that aren't memorable or serve any purpose. You don't need to write 10 chapters on a character for them to have impact on the story. For example, Yuri On Ice introduces a ton of characters, some that only appear for a total of 10 minutes, but it does a good job of making sure each character feels well rounded. In Sailor Moon, we get a ton of characters that are evil for the sake of evil without much interesting backgrounds to them and they feel flat because of it. If that's what Naoko wanted to write, whatever, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's good. This is the frustrations thread, no?


The lack of characterization for the villains in the manga is odd, too, because from the Materials Collection we can see she had some really interesting ideas for at least some of them (like Heavy Metal Papillon having a child and being a samba dancer, or Hawk's Eye wanting to be a bartender in Vegas). It makes me wonder why she didn't follow through with those ideas. Did Osabu talk her out of them? Did her vision change that much that quickly? I guess we'll never know...

Well, she did only have a hand full of chapters each arc, so maybe there was simply no room to implement these concepts that would work smoothly for the narrative. That's my guess at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Share Your Frustrations About "Sailor Moon"...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:14 am 
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Seira Hazuki wrote:
My whole point is that there are a ton of villains that aren't memorable or serve any purpose.


You're not wrong, but there are also a "ton" of villains who ARE memorable and DO serve a purpose (Queen Beryl, Galaxia, and Nehellenia come to mind, as do Mistress 9 and Black Lady to a lesser degree).

And just because you don't think they're memorable doesn't necessarily make it true. I find lots of the manga villains to be very memorable thanks to their designs as well as what they accomplish/actually do.

That said, these are your opinions and this is the place for frustrations after all, lol.

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