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 Post subject: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:49 am 
Columnae Creationis
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Why didn't we get songs like Moonlight Densetsu or the others dubbed?

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:57 am 
Luna
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NeoQueenSerenity18 wrote:
Why didn't we get songs like Moonlight Densetsu or the others dubbed?

I think dubbing songs is an antiquated method nowadays. I don't really know any companies or shows who do it anymore. Of course they probably could if they wanted to like with Rei's insert song from Sailor Moon R, but it would cost more money.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:20 am 
Planeta
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Sorry, I'm going to be a bit blunt here but those questions could have been asked in the ViZ thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:27 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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In my understanding music , anime music is more expensive . Infact it is cheep to make your own songs .So often they don't get dubbed, or in old dub s they get replace.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:47 pm 
Luna Crescens
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Money may be an issue, but it may be due to licensing issues.

Years ago, dubbing companies usually had full control over what they were allowed to edit and change, but now the original distributors have gotten more control over what's allowed to be changed. One of the hardest things to do is get permission to dub songs, not only do you need permission from the original lyricist, but you also might need permission from the original singer and possibly whoever else may have worked on the song. More often then not, the original artists prefer to have their work unaltered...which is why anime theme songs getting translated is pretty much a thing of the past.

Know why the Viz translation of Moonlight Densetsu is so awkward? It's because Viz wasn't even allowed to translate it themselves, instead the original Japanese lyricist did which is why it has odd structure and random Japanese words left in...English isn't the lyricist's first language. Interestingly, according to Viz, the original lyricist gave a reason for not letting it get dubbed. The reason? The lyricist believed the message of the song "transcends language".

This doesn't just effect anime either. Godzilla vs the Smog Monster(Renamed Godzilla Vs Hedora in later releases.) originally had a song in the movie that was dubbed in English, but some time in the 90s it was released with a new dub and the song was left in Japanese.

Really, we're extremely lucky that Viz got permission to dub Rei's song in episode 54. It's entirely possible it could have remained in Japanese, like that Godzilla movie.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:37 am 
Luna Nova
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Plumbers Helper wrote:
Money may be an issue, but it may be due to licensing issues.

Years ago, dubbing companies usually had full control over what they were allowed to edit and change, but now the original distributors have gotten more control over what's allowed to be changed. One of the hardest things to do is get permission to dub songs, not only do you need permission from the original lyricist, but you also might need permission from the original singer and possibly whoever else may have worked on the song. More often then not, the original artists prefer to have their work unaltered...which is why anime theme songs getting translated is pretty much a thing of the past.

Know why the Viz translation of Moonlight Densetsu is so awkward? It's because Viz wasn't even allowed to translate it themselves, instead the original Japanese lyricist did which is why it has odd structure and random Japanese words left in...English isn't the lyricist's first language. Interestingly, according to Viz, the original lyricist gave a reason for not letting it get dubbed. The reason? The lyricist believed the message of the song "transcends language".

This doesn't just effect anime either. Godzilla vs the Smog Monster(Renamed Godzilla Vs Hedora in later releases.) originally had a song in the movie that was dubbed in English, but some time in the 90s it was released with a new dub and the song was left in Japanese.

Really, we're extremely lucky that Viz got permission to dub Rei's song in episode 54. It's entirely possible it could have remained in Japanese, like that Godzilla movie.

It's quite sad, really. When you do it right you get things like Smile Bomb, the first OP for Yu Yu Hakusho that was dubbed.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:10 pm 
Planeta
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I remember hearing that the company releasing the new Mexican DVDs tried dubbing more songs into Spanish, and even began doing so, but the new recordings couldn't be on the new releases because they couldn't get approval from the Japanese. It's weird because Viz said singing talent was a consideration when casting the new voice actresses for the Sailor Guardians. However, it looks like they're only dubbing the songs sung in-universe by the characters themselves, meaning only Cristina Vee (Rei) and Cherami Leigh (Minako) will be the only ones actually using their talents. I guess it's too expensive.

Covered anime songs always heavily varied in quality when they still did them. You had great ones (Yu Yu Hakusho, Tenchi Muyo), mediocre ones (Ouran High School Host Club, One Piece), underwhelming ones (Bubblegum Crisis, Dragon Ball Z Kai) and just plain awful ones (Rurouni Kenshin, Magic Knight Rayearth).


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:20 pm 
Systema Solare
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PurpleWarrior13 wrote:
I remember hearing that the company releasing the new Mexican DVDs tried dubbing more songs into Spanish, and even began doing so, but the new recordings couldn't be on the new releases because they couldn't get approval from the Japanese.


Yup, this is true.

http://www.anmtvla.com/2012/05/talk-box ... -moon.html

http://twitter.com/SMObss/status/205481007246356480
http://twitter.com/SMObss/status/205481250822176768

Quote:
In Latin American DVD news: Princess Moon and Otome no Policy which have ALREADY been recorded in Spanish will NOT appear in the DVDs

Change of plans due to Naoko Takeuchi herself NOT giving Capital 8 permission to use them :(


http://www.sailormoonforum.com/viewtopi ... 64#p579964

Vilhem wrote:
Inc rough translation :D

Quote:
Ayer durante la noche, en la página de Facebook del Talk Box de Sailor Moon se reveló que el tema Princess Moon para el futuro Talk Box Mercury no será doblado al Español (ni ninguno de los temas venideros) por órdenes expresas de la creadora de la franquicia.


Yesterday night, on the Talk Box Moon Facebook page, it was revealed that the song "Princess Moon" for the upcoming Talk Box Mercury will not be dubbed in Spanish (nor any of the upcoming songs) by explicit orders of the creator of the franchise.

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La empresa, según fue informado por Fernando Sanz en el Episodio Nº4 del podcast Plan B, en un primer momento no había decidido si la intérprete del tema debía ser Marisa De Lille o la cantante chilena Salomé Anjarí. Finalmente, se tomó la decisión de que De Lille sería la intérprete e incluso se llegaron a grabar las versiones en español de Princess Moon y Otome No Policy con su voz, por lo que se presume que ésta sería una imposición de último minuto por parte de Takeuchi.


The company, at the time of Episode 4 of Plan B's podcast, had not yet decided which singer would be singing the song (Princess Moon): Marisa de Lille or Chilean singer Salome Anjari. Finally, it was decided de Lille would be singing the songs, and even recorded the songs in Spanish. It would seem this imposition was last minute from Takeuchi's part.

Quote:
En un primer momento, la cantante Mexicana reveló a través de un comentario en su muro personal de Facebook que estas versiones se podrían adquirir en su página web personal en un futuro a definir, sin embargo, con este nuevo antecedente queda en el aire si estas canciones se harán públicas en algún momento.


The Mexican singer (de Lille) revealed through a Wall post on her Facebook page, that these recorded versions (Princess Moon and Otome no Policy) would be available on her personal web page in the future, however, with this new antecedent it's up in the air if these songs will ever be made public.

Quote:
Marisa De Lille interpretó las versiones originales en español de Moonlight Densetsu y Heart Moving para la banda sonora de Sailor Moon en el doblaje de latinoamérica. También interpretó un número indeterminado de versiones al español de temas insertos en la serie de los cuales finalmente sólo salió Resplandeciente Cristal de Plata, mientras que los otros no aparecieron y terminaron perdiéndose en los archivos del ex-estudio Intertrack. Por su parte, las canciones Princess Moon y Otome No Policy nunca fueron dobladas al español latino. El Talk Box Mercury de Sailor Moon tiene presupuestado su lanzamiento para Junio de este año.


Marisa de Lille sang the original opening and ending themes in Spanish (Moonlight Densetsu and Heart Moving) for the Sailor Moon soundtrack in Latin America. She also sang an undetermined number of insert songs from the series in Spanish, of which only "Maboroshi no Ginzuisho" was used, while the songs that did not appear were lost among the archives of the former studio Intertrack. Princess Moon and Otome no Policy were never dubbed in Latin American Spanish (before). Talk Box Mercury has an estimated release date of June of this year.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Personal thoughts:
Wow this actually really pisses me off. It makes me wonder just what kind of crack Naoko is smoking when she makes these sorts of decisions. Why the hell cockblock a good thing like this? It's not like Moonlight Densetsu or Heart Moving weren't an accurate interpretation of the original Japanese ones. the fact they had these songs ready to go, just for Naoko to say "SRY NO" makes me really want to choke someone.


PurpleWarrior13 wrote:
It's weird because Viz said singing talent was a consideration when casting the new voice actresses for the Sailor Guardians. However, it looks like they're only dubbing the songs sung in-universe by the characters themselves, meaning only Cristina Vee (Rei) and Cherami Leigh (Minako) will be the only ones actually using their talents. I guess it's too expensive.


There's also the Sailor Starlights in the last season.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:07 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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NeoQueenSerenity18 wrote:
Why didn't we get songs like Moonlight Densetsu or the others dubbed?


Really? You really want to hear those Japanese songs in English?

Case in point: Tenchi Muyou Ryo Oh Ki OVAs.

The English and Japanese lyrics aren't even a translation of each other. In Pioneer's case, they tried to write a new song in English. Sometimes it was OK.

In the case of English songs for Sailor Moon, DiC / Optimum just wrote new songs, which were pretty good most of the time. That OP? *shudder* yecch.

But to write Moonlight Densetsu in English? It's really hard to accurately translate a song from one language to another and still have it correct if you want a singable lyric. It further ruins the matter by rewriting the translation into singable lyrics. I have never favored "rewriting" a translation away from being accurate.

The same case could be made for listening to opera in English. Purists want to know what the lyrics say rather than hearing an amateurish "translation" with an attempt to make it singable. There's a number of Youtube videos of people trying to do this with Sailor Moon songs - I have to close the tab after 5 seconds. It's just grating on the nerves.

Just sub it, translate it right, and go on.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:23 am 
Lapis Lunaris
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In my understanding music , anime music is more expensive . Infact it is cheep to make your own songs .So often they don't get dubbed, or in old dub s they get replace.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:45 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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MrShoujo wrote:

Really? You really want to hear those Japanese songs in English?

Case in point: Tenchi Muyou Ryo Oh Ki OVAs.

The English and Japanese lyrics aren't even a translation of each other. In Pioneer's case, they tried to write a new song in English. Sometimes it was OK.

In the case of English songs for Sailor Moon, DiC / Optimum just wrote new songs, which were pretty good most of the time. That OP? *shudder* yecch.

But to write Moonlight Densetsu in English? It's really hard to accurately translate a song from one language to another and still have it correct if you want a singable lyric. It further ruins the matter by rewriting the translation into singable lyrics. I have never favored "rewriting" a translation away from being accurate.

The same case could be made for listening to opera in English. Purists want to know what the lyrics say rather than hearing an amateurish "translation" with an attempt to make it singable. There's a number of Youtube videos of people trying to do this with Sailor Moon songs - I have to close the tab after 5 seconds. It's just grating on the nerves.

Just sub it, translate it right, and go on.
On the other hand, it's extremely jarring when you're watching an anime like Love Live that is so heavily focused around music to have the characters be speaking in English when they're just talking but then suddenly shift to their Japanese voices when they start singing. All translations are interpretations of what the original is saying and no translation is going to be exactly 100% the same as what's being said in Japanese, so I never understood why purist fans get outraged that dubs would interpret something to make it flow more natural in spoken English. If you want all your translated theme songs to be super literal, that's how you get messes like the Viz translation of Moonlight Densetsu. I personally love the dub Tenchi theme songs but I don't know that it's fair to use a dub that's over 20 years old as an example. There have been plenty of other better dubs since then that did a fair job of dubbing theme songs. Someone already mentioned Yu Yu Hakusho but I also love the dubbed versions of the Fruits Basket and Ouran High School Club theme songs. All of Funimation's dub theme songs for One Piece are really good too. I also love the English theme song they used in the dub of Princess Mononoke. It doesn't really bother me to have the theme songs in the credits in Japanese but it is kind of weird to have the insert songs in Japanese while everyone is speaking in English in the dub.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:48 pm 
Luna
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Funimation is the only company that seems to dub songs anymore though not all the time. The Skip Beat kickstarter release also has had all it's songs dubbed.

This is my favourite Moonlight Densetsu cover. Just the right blend of translation and adaptation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl7GwkqXkQs&vl


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:08 am 
Systema Solare
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SnowWolf wrote:
Funimation is the only company that seems to dub songs anymore though not all the time.


That depends on the show, even One Piece got affected by Toei & Avex's BS which is why they haven't dubbed any of that show's songs since the Skypiea arc.

The real question with them now is if they will be able to dub Dragon Ball Super's songs which I guess we'll find out this Saturday when it premieres on Adult Swim.

Quote:
The Skip Beat kickstarter release also has had all it's songs dubbed.


With the circumstances behind why that dub was even made ("No dub, No license" -TV Tokyo), it doesn't surprise me.

Too bad my interest in that dub is low now thanks to them bringing in J. Michael Tatum as co-head writer. :|

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:12 am 
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NeoQueenSerenity18 wrote:
Why didn't we get songs like Moonlight Densetsu or the others dubbed?


Because Naoko forbade it. P-:


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:04 am 
Luna Nova
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i wish we did get english songs as i feel something is lost when you can understand the song


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:59 am 
Galaxias
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Viz did dub the versions of Moonlight Densetsu that were sung in episodes 7 and 52. The translation used for both, however, is AWFUL!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:52 pm 
Systema Solare
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I've mentioned this before, but I generally don't want songs dubbed. If the result is bad, it's bad. If it's good, then I want it and they usually don't release it in full. :P

Thank you Pioneer for subverting the trend. (Listens to Tenchi Forever)

@ PurpleWarrior: I generally agree with your summary, but I remember preferring the dub of Freckles...

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:43 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Has Viz confirmed its a legal issue? The Hebrew dub was able to dub most of the songs, and Italy dubbed the opening to Sailor Moon Crystal. I think they just don't want to bother.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:00 am 
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NJ_ wrote:
The real question with them now is if they will be able to dub Dragon Ball Super's songs which I guess we'll find out this Saturday when it premieres on Adult Swim.

From what I heard from a credible source we're getting the Engrish version of Chouzetsu Dynamic that the Japanese singer did.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:14 am 
Systema Solare
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Umino wrote:
Has Viz confirmed its a legal issue? The Hebrew dub was able to dub most of the songs, and Italy dubbed the opening to Sailor Moon Crystal. I think they just don't want to bother.


The Hebrew dub was done long before that whole situation with Mexico happened.

There was also a situation with the Cantonese dub in which there was a new version of their Opening song done for Hong Kong's J2 broadcast because of legal issues but the song was dropped when they got to R with Moonlight Densetsu kept intact starting from there (I'd post both J2 OPs but they seem to be long gone :sad: ).

As for Crystal in Italy, It's strange because those songs never got dubbed anywhere else. Aren't Portugal & France more known to dub anime songs than over here? I know Portugal did for Dragon Ball Super's opening (as terrible as it is) for it's broadcast on SIC...

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:47 am 
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Wait, Viz dubbed Moonlight Densetsu in the episodes? I never saw the new dub so what did it sound like?

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:05 am 
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Lunatastic wrote:
Wait, Viz dubbed Moonlight Densetsu in the episodes? I never saw the new dub so what did it sound like?
Terrible. The song literally begins with the words "Gomen ne" sung by the English voice actors, with the rest of the words in the first lyric sung in English, resulting in the first line being "Gomen ne it's hard for me to say..." And the whole song is like that with random bits of Japanese tossed around the English lyrics, which themselves are more of a literal translation that anything and don't account for the rhythm of the song at all.

And in some cases, the translation is questionable in its accuracy, such as its decision to translate the final line of "Mirakuru Romansu" (which is obviously the English words "Miracle Romance" spoken in Japanese phonetics) as "This is the miracle of romance", which completely misses the intention behind the phrase "miracle romance" referring to the miraculous nature of the romance itself (as in, the romance between Usagi/Serenity and Mamoru/Endymion that was so strong that it miraculously transcended time and space between their past and present lives) instead of referring to the romantic nature of a miracle that the translation now speaks of. A much better translation of this line, one that keeps the original intent and accounts for the song's rhythm, would have been something like "This is a miracle romance."

Of course, this song is supposed to song awful in how badly Usagi and Naru, and later Naru and Umino, sing it in episode 7. And it was Kindergarten children who sang it in episode 52, so they get a pass for any iffyness on their own singing abilities. But regardless, that still doesn't excuse the official English translation of this song being objectively dreadful in and of itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:53 am 
Solaris Luna
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The new Korean dub also redubbed a lot of the insert songs. That one came out last year.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:59 pm 
Luna Crescens
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Umino wrote:
The new Korean dub also redubbed a lot of the insert songs. That one came out last year.

Well yeah, but there's issues between Korea and Japan on account of their history, so you know...

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:15 am 
Systema Solare
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SM_Fan1991 wrote:
NJ_ wrote:
The real question with them now is if they will be able to dub Dragon Ball Super's songs which I guess we'll find out this Saturday when it premieres on Adult Swim.

From what I heard from a credible source we're getting the Engrish version of Chouzetsu Dynamic that the Japanese singer did.


Apparently your source lied because I just checked the 8 PM premiere and the opening is in Japanese. :|

EDIT:


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:26 am 
Luna Crescens
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NJ_ wrote:
SM_Fan1991 wrote:
NJ_ wrote:
The real question with them now is if they will be able to dub Dragon Ball Super's songs which I guess we'll find out this Saturday when it premieres on Adult Swim.

From what I heard from a credible source we're getting the Engrish version of Chouzetsu Dynamic that the Japanese singer did.


Apparently your source lied because I just checked the 8 PM premiere and the opening is in Japanese. :|

Indeed it is, but the Engrish version could be on the home release. When Toonami aired Kai 1.0 they did play Yeah Break Care Break in Japanese despite having a dubbed version.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:56 pm 
Luna Nova
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Princess Viola wrote:
Umino wrote:
The new Korean dub also redubbed a lot of the insert songs. That one came out last year.

Well yeah, but there's issues between Korea and Japan on account of their history, so you know...


I remember they censored all japanese words on-screen when the old dub aired.
I think they just can't air japanese songs on cartoons there. Also the israeli channel chose to air really messy videos as openings or endings whenever there were no creditless versions available.
Maybe when the countries have stricter standards regarding foreign language on children's programming, the japanese make exceptions.
Also, they tend to look English-language releases closer because... you know, they want their anime series to become a hit the US more than anywhere else.
And there are cases and cases. The brazilians were able to dub Dragon Ball Kai songs for example, but couldn't do the same with the songs on the latest DB movies because japanese artists like FLOW didn't allow their work to get translated.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:23 pm 
Solaris Luna
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The original Cloverway dub also dubbed most of the insert songs.


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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:03 am 
Systema Solare
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kevoso96 wrote:
And there are cases and cases. The brazilians were able to dub Dragon Ball Kai songs for example, but couldn't do the same with the songs on the latest DB movies because japanese artists like FLOW didn't allow their work to get translated.


With the two DBZ movies, that was all on Toei because they had made 2 separate masters for them, one which has the FLOW & Momoiro Clover Z songs in Japanese, and the other with them in Engrish (which also affected the Japanese versions internationally), that's the reason FUNi & everyone else weren't allowed to dub those songs because they were already in English, same with the Majin Buu arc of Kai which has it's own Engrish OP & ED song.

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 Post subject: Re: Why can't Viz dub the songs?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:46 pm 
Luna Nova
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NJ_ wrote:
kevoso96 wrote:
And there are cases and cases. The brazilians were able to dub Dragon Ball Kai songs for example, but couldn't do the same with the songs on the latest DB movies because japanese artists like FLOW didn't allow their work to get translated.


With the two DBZ movies, that was all on Toei because they had made 2 separate masters for them, one which has the FLOW & Momoiro Clover Z songs in Japanese, and the other with them in Engrish (which also affected the Japanese versions internationally), that's the reason FUNi & everyone else weren't allowed to dub those songs because they were already in English, same with the Majin Buu arc of Kai which has it's own Engrish OP & ED song.


Engrish version by the same artists, right?
Well, as far as I can tell from going to the theaters to watch DBZ BoG, the brazilian dub had the songs in japanese rather than english. But I can be wrong, it was 3 years ago. The first half of DB Kai had all songs dubbed into brazilian portuguese, though. The second half is yet to premiere, probably this year.


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