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 Post subject: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:57 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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Let's go a bit in-depth and have a look at what exactly in the writing Viz does wrong in its dub! Why? Because it's interesting.

I can start with a few: sometimes the script gets peppered with uneeded foul language.

Some terms just flow better in Japanese such as "unforgivable".

The S fancy party episode takes the people speaking English in the original and... leaves it in English.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:34 pm 
Luna Nova
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Overly literal translations. The beginning of the first episode of S where Rei is having that nightmare and she says something like "it's approaching...the silence is fast approaching..." -- it just didn't sound right. Real people don't talk like that or use words like that, and I'm sure there are many other examples but I think that this is one area where dubbers NEED to make changes.

Japanese and English are very different languages. Sometimes, although a direct, more accurate translation might be available, it just won't sound natural in English and that makes for an awkward, non-realistic sounding dub. Overall, I think the Viz dub was fine, but this is something most dubs are guilty of at times, the Viz dub included.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:55 pm 
Solaris Luna
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The way they mispronounced Kunzite's, Berthier's, Demand(e)'s, Makoto's, and Minako's names, and occasionally mispronounced or weirdly emphasized parts of Usagi, Mamoru, Tsukino, Chibiusa, and Esmeraude.

The use of certain terms from the Kodansha manga translation (which I know aren't Viz's fault, but they're still flaws in their dub IMO) like "Legendary Silver Crystal," "Specter Sisters," "Evil spirits, be exorcised," etc (none of which are necessarily wrong or bad, just bland).

Clunky, awkward, unnatural sounding dialog.

Retaining random Japanese words ("Dokiri," "Makai," etc) for no reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:56 pm 
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I find it very difficult to watch. The English sounds unnatural and wooden. Stephanie Sheh's voice is annoying.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:28 pm 
Galaxias
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One rather irksome example came in the Sleeping Beauty episode of R. After Chibiusa snuck out of the house when she overheard Usagi sobbing over Mamoru supposedly having a new girlfriend, Petz and Calaveras found her and started chasing her. When Chibiusa ran from them, she cried out "Somebody help me!" Shortly after this, we see Usagi and Luna running towards her to help her and Luna calls out "We're coming, Chibiusa!" It is right at this point that Viz made their glaring mistake.

In the original Japanese version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we see Chibiusa running forward in the distance, facing the direction that Usagi and Luna are coming from, and hear her yell "Tasukete!" ("Help!" or "Help me!") at a point when she was still nowhere near Usagi or Luna just yet. Plus, her yell was a general cry for help from anybody within an earshot of her, not specifically asking for anyone in particular to help her, which strongly suggests that, despite facing Usagi's and Luna's direction, she was still far enough away to not see or hear Usagi and Luna running toward her. This is further supported by the fact that Usagi transformed into Sailor Moon while Chibiusa was running towards her and being chased by Petz and Calaveras, and yet none of the three of them ever acknowledge their having seen Usagi turn into Sailor Moon, and all three act surprised to see Sailor Moon standing before them after Usagi finishes transforming.

Viz, evidently, did not understand this and slightly changed what Chibiusa yelled. In this version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we still see Chibiusa running forward in the distance and facing that direction, but now she yells "Hurry! HELP!" in direct response to Luna's "We're coming, Chibiusa!" line. The problem with this is not only does her response sound like she was close enough to see and hear Luna, instead of being far off in the distance like she is shown to be, but the fact that it was presented as a response at all!

Chibiusa's saying "Hurry!" sounds like she HEARD what Luna said and was close enough to see Luna say what she said, despite the facts that A) Chibiusa was originally calling out to no one in particular, and B) she isn't supposed to know yet that Luna can talk!

Her use of "Hurry!" only makes sense if she was able to see and hear Luna in that moment, which not only deters the notion that Chibiusa (and the two sisters) was too far off to see or hear Usagi and Luna coming toward her, but also completely goes against the continuity of how Chibiusa doesn't find out about Usagi's cat being able to talk until after Chibiusa finds out that Usagi is Sailor Moon, as Luna pretends to be Usagi's normal non-talking cat prior to that point, trying not to ever speak in front of Chibiusa before then.

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Last edited by Sabrblade on Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:18 am 
Solaris Luna
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Generally I find the dub fairly well-acted, but I do think the screams could use some work. The screams of agony in episode 45 felt fairly lackluster to the Japanese. They have gotten better (like Sheh had a decent scream in R during the Makai Tree arc), but they're still not as intense as the Japanese screams. Makes me kind of nervous to see how the "CRISIS, MAKE UUUUUUUUUP" scene is going to turn out.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:33 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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As someone who has seen a fair amount of dubbed anime over the years, I don't really have an issue with swearing or even the name pronunciation. Those are things in most anime dubs. Even previous official subbed releases of Sailor Moon had plenty of swearing in the subtitles like on the ADV and Pioneer release. And it can be debated how strongly kuso should be translated, but they are still saying that word in Japanese which is traditionally translated as a swear word in anime dubs. I feel like Sailor Moon has actually been fairly modest with the swearing. It's not like the Sailor Guardians are cussing like sailors (no pun intended) in every scene and it's usually kept with the bad guys. Again, name pronunciations are also a common practice in anime dubs, and always going to be difficult to nail down because of how American accents are, and it's not like the Sailor Guardians' don't badly mispronounce Engrish words all the time in the original. I would agree though that being the issue of when to be literal is probably my biggest issue with the Viz dub. Like there was that one episode where Sailor Moon saves the priest from Zoisite. When the priest gets healed, the Viz dub translates it overly literal to have him say "Love you fellow man." But it's very obvious that he's quoting the famous bible verse, "Love thy neighbor," and even the original ADV subtitles quoted the scriptures correctly. This is like one of the most famous bible verses around the world, so I don't really know why Viz got that line wrong. My other issue is that I don't like that they keep calling the Silver Crystal the "legendary" Silver Crystal. I'm fine with them using Guardians instead of Soldier because canonically that's the new official term Naoko has been using since the re-release of the manga and PGSM. I'm not an expert on Japanese by any means, but maboroshi does not mean "legendary" as far as I'm aware. I wish they could have used Illusive or Phantom or even Mystical like Pioneer used would have been better. But generally speaking, I am a big fan of the Viz dub and I actually think it's one of the best anime dubs I've seen. The Crystal dub especially has been fantastic and I would even put the dub of Crystal up there with Cowboy Bebop as one of the best English dubs.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:49 pm 
Galaxias
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Neon Genesis wrote:
As someone who has seen a fair amount of dubbed anime over the years, I don't really have an issue with swearing or even the name pronunciation. Those are things in most anime dubs. Even previous official subbed releases of Sailor Moon had plenty of swearing in the subtitles like on the ADV and Pioneer release. And it can be debated how strongly kuso should be translated, but they are still saying that word in Japanese which is traditionally translated as a swear word in anime dubs. I feel like Sailor Moon has actually been fairly modest with the swearing. It's not like the Sailor Guardians are cussing like sailors (no pun intended) in every scene and it's usually kept with the bad guys.
I don't think you understand. It's not the translating of "kuso" and its ilk into swear expletives that's bothersome, but the issue of Viz adding in additional cases of cussing in places where there were no such opportunities for them to occur in the Japanese version.

Two instances I can recall offhand of this happening in the Viz version are when Mamoru cusses out Usagi in one of her flashbacks to his breaking up with her (which also creates an inconsistency with how that scene actually played out when it first happened in the Viz dub, as he did not cuss at her then), and when Rubeus beams Sailor Moon and Chibiusa onto his UFO and Sailor Moon calls Rubeus the extended BA-word (when in the original Japanese version, she instead just said "Rubeus!"). And in the second case, it was not a lip flap-matching necessity since her cussing him out replaced her saying his name entirely, and both his name and what she said in the dub share the same number of syllables ("Ru-be-us!", "You-ba-****d!")

Neon Genesis wrote:
Again, name pronunciations are also a common practice in anime dubs, and always going to be difficult to nail down because of how American accents are, and it's not like the Sailor Guardians' don't badly mispronounce Engrish words all the time in the original.
On the other hand, there's still a difference between putting emphasis on the wrong syllable (i.e. - "Ma-ko-to" instead of "Ma-ko-to", "A-ki-ko" instead of "A-ki-ko) and flat out saying one's name incorrectly (i.e. - "Ber-thee-er" instead of "Ber-tee-ay" for "Berthier", adding an L sound to Esmeraude's name for no reason).

Neon Genesis wrote:
My other issue is that I don't like that they keep calling the Silver Crystal the "legendary" Silver Crystal. I'm fine with them using Guardians instead of Soldier because canonically that's the new official term Naoko has been using since the re-release of the manga and PGSM. I'm not an expert on Japanese by any means, but maboroshi does not mean "legendary" as far as I'm aware. I wish they could have used Illusive or Phantom or even Mystical like Pioneer used would have been better.
I get the feeling that that translation might have come from on high at Toei or Naoko herself. Even ADV used "Legendary" in their subs as well, so Viz and Kodansha may not be solely at fault for that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:04 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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The Blizzard Prince wrote:
Generally I find the dub fairly well-acted, but I do think the screams could use some work. The screams of agony in episode 45 felt fairly lackluster to the Japanese. They have gotten better (like Sheh had a decent scream in R during the Makai Tree arc), but they're still not as intense as the Japanese screams. Makes me kind of nervous to see how the "CRISIS, MAKE UUUUUUUUUP" scene is going to turn out.


It's amazing how the original Japanese VAs were able to pull off such emotional screams and make it out alright. Maybe the Viz dub wants to spare its talent so that they don't wear their VAs out too much.

Fun Fact: Kotono Mitsuishi also played the hyperactive Excel in Excel Saga. The original English VA for Excel was worn out by 13 episodes in, and they had to replace her because it was so difficult and tiring to recreate what Kotono originally did.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:23 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Lunatastic wrote:
It's amazing how the original Japanese VAs were able to pull off such emotional screams and make it out alright. Maybe the Viz dub wants to spare its talent so that they don't wear their VAs out too much.

It is amazing, and part of why the Japanese version will always be my favorite. :love: That's what I thought, but I don't have that problem with their screams in Crystal. It seems to be something specific with the 90s anime, at least so far.

Lunatastic wrote:
Fun Fact: Kotono Mitsuishi also played the hyperactive Excel in Excel Saga. The original English VA for Excel was worn out by 13 episodes in, and they had to replace her because it was so difficult and tiring to recreate what Kotono originally did.

I remember hearing about that. It's impressive Kotono was able to play a role like that without wearing out.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:51 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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This is a good example of some of the little more unnatural sounding writing and acting in the Viz dub.

In the original DiC dub, Mars' line was like this: "My music! Why you scaly flounder! AAARGGH!" :3 Cheesy, but it feels a fair bit more natural.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:49 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Honestly "You'll pay!' would've worked 100x better.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:30 am 
Galaxias
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Umino wrote:
Honestly "You'll pay!' would've worked 100x better.
While I don't disagree, I feel that "You'll pay!" is too short to match the visible lip flaps for when she yells her second "Unforgivable!" Maybe something like "How dare you!" might have fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:45 am 
Solaris Luna
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What about "You'll pay for that!" or "I'll make you pay!"?

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:17 am 
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Sabrblade wrote:
One rather irksome example came in the Sleeping Beauty episode of R. After Chibiusa snuck out of the house when she overheard Usagi sobbing over Mamoru supposedly having a new girlfriend, Petz and Calaveras found her and started chasing her. When Chibisa ran from them, she cried out "Somebody help me!" Shortly after this, we see Usagi and Luna running towards her to help her and Luna calls out "We're coming, Chibiusa!" It is right at this point that Viz made their glaring mistake.

In the original Japanese version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we see Chibiusa running forward in the distance, facing the direction that Usagi and Luna are coming from, and hear her yell "Tasukete!" ("Help!" or "Help me!") at a point when she was still nowhere near Usagi or Luna just yet. Plus, her yell was a general cry for help from anybody within an earshot of her, not specifically asking for anyone in particular to help her, which strongly suggests that, despite facing Usagi's and Luna's direction, she was still far enough away to not see or hear Usagi and Luna running toward her. This is further supported by the fact that Usagi transformed into Sailor Moon while Chibiusa was running towards her and being chased by Petz and Calaveras, and yet none of the three of them ever acknowledge their having seen Usagi turn into Sailor Moon, and all three act surprised to see Sailor Moon standing before them after Usagi finishes transforming.

Viz, evidently, did not understand this and slightly changed what Chibiusa yelled. In this version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we still see Chibiusa running forward in the distance and facing that direction, but now she yells "Hurry! HELP!" in direct response to Luna's "We're coming, Chibiusa!" line. The problem with this is not only does her response sound like she was close enough to see and hear Luna, instead of being far off in the distance like she is shown to be, but the fact that it was presented as a response at all!

Chibiusa's saying "Hurry!" sounds like she HEARD what Luna said and was close enough to see Luna say what she said, despite the facts that A) Chibiusa was originally calling out to no one in particular, and B) she isn't supposed to know yet that Luna can talk!

Her use of "Hurry!" only makes sense if she was able to see and hear Luna in that moment, which not only deters the notion that Chibiusa (and the two sisters) was too far off to see or hear Usagi and Luna coming toward her, but also completely goes against the continuity of how Chibiusa doesn't find out about Usagi's cat talking until after Chibiusa finds out that Usagi is Sailor Moon, as Luna pretends to be Usagi normal non-talking cat prior to that point, trying not to ever speak in front of Chibiusa before then.


That's ridiculous you would think they would do better at keeping accuracy with things like that. The rest of the stuff mentioned on this thread seems minor but this is a major flaw in accuracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:45 am 
Galaxias
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
What about "You'll pay for that!" or "I'll make you pay!"?
I'm not sure. ^_^'

Let's look at the four options that have been suggested so far. Based on how Rei originally used the phrase "Yurusenai... YURUSENAI!!!", which of the following sounds the most natural for an English speaker to use in the same context as both the original phrase and Viz's unnatural translation of "Unforgivable... UNFORGIVABLE!!!":


Option 1: "You'll pay... YOU'LL PAY!!!"

Option 2: "How dare you... HOW DARE YOU!!!"

Option 3: "You'll pay for that... YOU'LL PAY FOR THAT!!!"

Option 4: "I'll make you pay... I'LL MAKE YOU PAY!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:57 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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Sabrblade wrote:
MementoNepenthe wrote:
What about "You'll pay for that!" or "I'll make you pay!"?
I'm not sure. ^_^'

Let's look at the four options that have been suggested so far. Based on how Rei originally used the phrase "Yurusenai... YURUSENAI!!!", which of the following sounds the most natural for an English speaker to use in the same context as both the original phrase and Viz's unnatural translation of "Unforgivable... UNFORGIVABLE!!!":


Option 1: "You'll pay... YOU'LL PAY!!!"

Option 2: "How dare you... HOW DARE YOU!!!"

Option 3: "You'll pay for that... YOU'LL PAY FOR THAT!!!"

Option 4: "I'll make you pay... I'LL MAKE YOU PAY!!!"


I'm going with option two. I kinda wish they did some redux in to go over any errors and unnatural-sounding dialogue for something like TV airings. My personal replacement of the line goes something like this:

"How could you... YOU'LL PAY FOR THIS!"

The monster's line: "Be quiet!"

And Artemis' line: "It looks like Mars just discovered her hidden ability too!"

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:22 am 
Galaxias
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This other flaw one was pointed out in another thread, one that talked about the S redub when it came out on Blu-Ray/DVD.

In Kaolinite's final episode that took place at Tokyo Tower, Viz made the same mistake Cloverway made in that, after Cenicienta was destroyed, Kaolinite held the glass slipper that Cenicienta was made from and referred to Sailor Moon as its owner. By doing this, she sounds like she knows that Usagi is Sailor Moon, despite the fact that Minako's Sailor Moon disguise was supposed to have already previously convinced her that Usagi wasn't Sailor Moon.

In the original Japanese version, when Kaolinite holds up the slipper, she does not refer its owner (Sailor Moon, Usagi, or anyone) at all, so this goof is all on Viz (and Cloverway).

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:43 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Sabrblade wrote:
In the original Japanese version, when Kaolinite holds up the slipper, she does not refer its owner (Sailor Moon, Usagi, or anyone) at all, so this goof is all on Viz (and Cloverway).


Cloverway doesn't have Kaorinite refer to Serena as the shoe's owner. Rather, Sailor Moon exclaims "She has my glass shoe!" when Kaorinite holds it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:00 pm 
Galaxias
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Umino wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
In the original Japanese version, when Kaolinite holds up the slipper, she does not refer its owner (Sailor Moon, Usagi, or anyone) at all, so this goof is all on Viz (and Cloverway).


Cloverway doesn't have Kaorinite refer to Serena as the shoe's owner. Rather, Sailor Moon exclaims "She has my glass shoe!" when Kaorinite holds it up.
Hmm. Someone in that other thread said that Viz repeated a goof Cloverway made by having the slipper's owner be mentioned by someone in that scene, when no owner was mentioned in the Japanese version.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:20 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Sabrblade wrote:
Hmm. Someone in that other thread said that Viz repeated a goof Cloverway made by having the slipper's owner be mentioned by someone in that scene, when no owner was mentioned in the Japanese version.


They were probably just referring the fact Sailor Moon refers to the shoe as her own. Kaorinite never identifies the owner. The original dub also makes it seem like Uranus figured out Serena was Sailor Moon.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:11 am 
Galaxias
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Aha! I found the post:
PokemonBWDub wrote:
Well here's an unfortunate note. Looks like Viz Media repeated the same mistake as CWi and had it so Kaolinite knew Sailor Moon was Usagi at the climax of their battle and Usagi even admitting in front of everyone it was her glass shoe.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:30 pm 
Luna Nova
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Sabrblade wrote:
One rather irksome example came in the Sleeping Beauty episode of R. After Chibiusa snuck out of the house when she overheard Usagi sobbing over Mamoru supposedly having a new girlfriend, Petz and Calaveras found her and started chasing her. When Chibiusa ran from them, she cried out "Somebody help me!" Shortly after this, we see Usagi and Luna running towards her to help her and Luna calls out "We're coming, Chibiusa!" It is right at this point that Viz made their glaring mistake.

In the original Japanese version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we see Chibiusa running forward in the distance, facing the direction that Usagi and Luna are coming from, and hear her yell "Tasukete!" ("Help!" or "Help me!") at a point when she was still nowhere near Usagi or Luna just yet. Plus, her yell was a general cry for help from anybody within an earshot of her, not specifically asking for anyone in particular to help her, which strongly suggests that, despite facing Usagi's and Luna's direction, she was still far enough away to not see or hear Usagi and Luna running toward her. This is further supported by the fact that Usagi transformed into Sailor Moon while Chibiusa was running towards her and being chased by Petz and Calaveras, and yet none of the three of them ever acknowledge their having seen Usagi turn into Sailor Moon, and all three act surprised to see Sailor Moon standing before them after Usagi finishes transforming.

Viz, evidently, did not understand this and slightly changed what Chibiusa yelled. In this version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we still see Chibiusa running forward in the distance and facing that direction, but now she yells "Hurry! HELP!" in direct response to Luna's "We're coming, Chibiusa!" line. The problem with this is not only does her response sound like she was close enough to see and hear Luna, instead of being far off in the distance like she is shown to be, but the fact that it was presented as a response at all!

Chibiusa's saying "Hurry!" sounds like she HEARD what Luna said and was close enough to see Luna say what she said, despite the facts that A) Chibiusa was originally calling out to no one in particular, and B) she isn't supposed to know yet that Luna can talk!

Her use of "Hurry!" only makes sense if she was able to see and hear Luna in that moment, which not only deters the notion that Chibiusa (and the two sisters) was too far off to see or hear Usagi and Luna coming toward her, but also completely goes against the continuity of how Chibiusa doesn't find out about Usagi's cat being able to talk until after Chibiusa finds out that Usagi is Sailor Moon, as Luna pretends to be Usagi's normal non-talking cat prior to that point, trying not to ever speak in front of Chibiusa before then.

Eh a few things here....first of all why do you think Usagi suddenly transforms? I mean she is originally just chasing after Chibiusa in her civillian form just like she did during the thunderstorm episode. There is not a second energy burst from Chibiusa that can be seen for miles...so then why at that moment after Chibiusa has shouted does Usagi suddenly decide to transform? To me it seems obvious that it is indeed because she has gotten close enough to know Chibiusa is in actual trouble at that moment. In other words she is close enough to either see the two Ayakoshi sisters and/or hear Chibiusa's shout. So then why is it out of the question that if Luna and Usagi were close enough to hear Chibiusa, that Chibiusa would then not be close enough to hear Luna shout back in reply? If you need any further evidence of how close Usagi/Luna were at the time just look at how soon after they caught up to Chibiusa/Petz/Calaveras. If she were miles away to far to hear without a serious time lapse occuring there is no way that timing would have worked out for her to catch up to them that quickly!

Next why are you assuming that Sailor Moon was coming from in front of Chibiusa? These is nothing to truly suggest what direction anyone is running towards. The fact is that Sailor Moon does not appear in front of anybody while they are still running forward, instead after the transformation sequence we cut to the two sisters having caught Chibiusa. We have no way of knowing how this went down or which direction they are now facing. It is then that Sailor Moon appears and they have to turn their heads to the side to see her. Thus she could have just as easily been coming from behind or from the side. A very logical sequence could have been Usagi/Luna get close enough to hear Chibiusa or see the two sisters. We then see that Usagi stops running to transform thus dropping back out of earshot of Chibiusa and the sisters. The sisters catch up to Chibiusa causing her to stop running. A few seconds of struggle occur off camera before we cut back from the transformation sequence.

And sure while Chibiusa is not supposed to know Luna can talk...Luna's concern for her in the present situation over rides her thinking about that at the moment thus her shouting in response. For the record this is also at least the second time Luna has spoken around her. During the charm shop shot episode while perched on Usagi's shoulder when she was holding onto a not unconscious Chibiusa...Luna spoke quietly but in not exactly a whisper directing Usagi's attention to something. Basically she thought it was more important to direct Usagi to a possible escape than to stay silent and avoid the risk of Chibiusa overhearing her. That aside we know that Chibiusa is from the future and that she certainly knows Luna there, thus she knew Luna can speak and would have no reason not to recognize her voice at this time since there is no transformation magic at play with Luna like there is Usagi. Also worth noting that just like we never get a surprise reaction scene of Chibusa learning Usagi is her mother, thee was never a surprise reaction scene regarding Chibiusa learning Luna could talk....because she always knew and was just playing along probably as Pluto instructed. (On a related note don't forget that this chase scene in the DiC dub actually featured Rini calling out to her "Mommy" to help her...so as spoilers go the Viz dub not nearly as bad as the DiC one was!)


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:43 am 
Galaxias
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Xenox33 wrote:
Eh a few things here....first of all why do you think Usagi suddenly transforms? I mean she is originally just chasing after Chibiusa in her civillian form just like she did during the thunderstorm episode. There is not a second energy burst from Chibiusa that can be seen for miles...so then why at that moment after Chibiusa has shouted does Usagi suddenly decide to transform? To me it seems obvious that it is indeed because she has gotten close enough to know Chibiusa is in actual trouble at that moment. In other words she is close enough to either see the two Ayakoshi sisters and/or hear Chibiusa's shout. So then why is it out of the question that if Luna and Usagi were close enough to hear Chibiusa, that Chibiusa would then not be close enough to hear Luna shout back in reply?
Because Chibiusa's second "Tasukete!" in the original wasn't a direct response to Luna's "Chibiusa-chan!", and most importantly, Chibiusa isn't supposed to know yet that Luna can talk.

Xenox33 wrote:
If you need any further evidence of how close Usagi/Luna were at the time just look at how soon after they caught up to Chibiusa/Petz/Calaveras. If she were miles away to far to hear without a serious time lapse occuring there is no way that timing would have worked out for her to catch up to them that quickly!
Once the two sisters grab hold of Chibiusa right after Usagi's transformation sequence finishes, the three of them stop running, allowing Sailor Moon to appear before them within a reasonable time span.

Xenox33 wrote:
Next why are you assuming that Sailor Moon was coming from in front of Chibiusa? These is nothing to truly suggest what direction anyone is running towards. The fact is that Sailor Moon does not appear in front of anybody while they are still running forward, instead after the transformation sequence we cut to the two sisters having caught Chibiusa. We have no way of knowing how this went down or which direction they are now facing. It is then that Sailor Moon appears and they have to turn their heads to the side to see her. Thus she could have just as easily been coming from behind or from the side. A very logical sequence could have been Usagi/Luna get close enough to hear Chibiusa or see the two sisters. We then see that Usagi stops running to transform thus dropping back out of earshot of Chibiusa and the sisters. The sisters catch up to Chibiusa causing her to stop running. A few seconds of struggle occur off camera before we cut back from the transformation sequence.
Okay, what does any of this really have to do with the primary point of concern being that Chibiusa is not yet supposed to know that Luna can talk and thus should not have had her dialogue written as a direct response to Luna's dialogue?

Xenox33 wrote:
And sure while Chibiusa is not supposed to know Luna can talk...Luna's concern for her in the present situation over rides her thinking about that at the moment thus her shouting in response. For the record this is also at least the second time Luna has spoken around her. During the charm shop shot episode while perched on Usagi's shoulder when she was holding onto a not unconscious Chibiusa...Luna spoke quietly but in not exactly a whisper directing Usagi's attention to something. Basically she thought it was more important to direct Usagi to a possible escape than to stay silent and avoid the risk of Chibiusa overhearing her.
The fact that Chibiusa didn't notice Luna's dialogue implies that Luna did whisper quietly enough for Chibiusa to not hear her, with the audio quality of her dialogue being loud enough for the viewers to comprehend what she's saying.

Xenox33 wrote:
That aside we know that Chibiusa is from the future and that she certainly knows Luna there,
One would think, yet the future version of Luna or any of the cats was never shown in the R anime, providing no onsceen evidence within that season that Chibiusa knew the future version of Luna.

Xenox33 wrote:
thus she knew Luna can speak and would have no reason not to recognize her voice at this time since there is no transformation magic at play with Luna like there is Usagi.
Do not forget that at this point in the series, Chibiusa's true identity as being Usagi's daughter is not yet known. From a narrative standpoint, we should not yet know that she is privy to such information about Luna being more than just a normal cat. For all intents and purposes, any knowledge of Luna she would have from the future shouldn't yet be made known to either Luna herself or the audience.

Xenox33 wrote:
Also worth noting that just like we never get a surprise reaction scene of Chibusa learning Usagi is her mother, thee was never a surprise reaction scene regarding Chibiusa learning Luna could talk....because she always knew and was just playing along probably as Pluto instructed.
We do get a surprise reaction of Chibiusa learning that Usagi is the legendary Sailor Moon and that Usagi's friends are the other Sailor Senshi, as well as a scene of Chibiusa having to ask Mamoru for confirmation that he is Tuxedo Mask. If she didn't believe Usagi and Sailor Moon to be the same person, then why would she assume that Usagi's cat and Sailor Moon's cat were the same cat? Or that Usagi's cat was the same cat from the future who never even appeared in the season that this all happened in?

Xenox33 wrote:
(On a related note don't forget that this chase scene in the DiC dub actually featured Rini calling out to her "Mommy" to help her...so as spoilers go the Viz dub not nearly as bad as the DiC one was!)
To be a little fair to that line, her calling out "Mommy!" was in place of the first "Tasukete!" that was spoken aloud as a general cry for help before we see Usagi and Luna running towards her, making it sound like how lots of people in media have cried out for their mommies in general (rather than because they genuinely believed that their mothers were nearby enough to actually hear them) when in trouble.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:19 am 
Luna Nova
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Sabrblade wrote:
Because Chibiusa's second "Tasukete!" in the original wasn't a direct response to Luna's "Chibiusa-chan!
You can only assume that it wasn't a direct response. There's nothing to actually prove it was not. Actually you know what as I went back to watch that scene I think I noticed something...Usagi's mouth is also moving when Luna shouts? That seems odd... I went back and check other times when Usagi was running to see if maybe it was meant to simulate her breathing or something. And I can't seem to find an example of her running with her mouth moving when she is not talking. Now I wasn't about to check every episode but the seven I did find in the first two seasons that I knew of all had the mouth not moving. Which has me thinking that maybe originally it was going to be Usagi yelling but then someone realized Usagi calling for Chibiusa and being heard then Sailor Moon showing up instead may have jeopardized Usagi's identity...thus instead Luna became the one shouting. Because it also occurred to me...Chibiusa obviously could not see Luna while she was running for her life. So if you want to say she did not know Luna's voice (I'll get back to that in a moment) then why would it actually matter if she heard her since she would not have any idea it was actually Luna that was yelling her name? So where is the actual damage then if it does not actually reveal Luna's ability to talk to her in that moment? (A fairly moot point I will address later too)

Sabrblade wrote:
Once the two sisters grab hold of Chibiusa right after Usagi's transformation sequence finishes, the three of them stop running, allowing Sailor Moon to appear before them within a reasonable time span.
Except again Usagi also had stopped running shortly before that. You are also still ignoring my question of why Usagi suddenly decided to transform in the park if she didn't see/hear anything.

Sabrblade wrote:
Okay, what does any of this really have to do with the primary point of concern being that Chibiusa is not yet supposed to know that Luna can talk and thus should not have had her dialogue written as a direct response to Luna's dialogue?
This was in direct response to this: "This is further supported by the fact that Usagi transformed into Sailor Moon while Chibiusa was running towards her and being chased by Petz and Calaveras, and yet none of the three of them ever acknowledge their having seen Usagi turn into Sailor Moon, and all three act surprised to see Sailor Moon standing before them after Usagi finishes transforming." I was disputing the claim that Sailor Moon was in front of them and thus they all would have seen her transform and reacted if she was in earshot.

Sabrblade wrote:
The fact that Chibiusa didn't notice Luna's dialogue implies that Luna did whisper quietly enough for Chibiusa to not hear her, with the audio quality of her dialogue being loud enough for the viewers to comprehend what she's saying.
Or that again Chibiusa was not startled by Luna talking and was more concerned with the Black Moon droid trying to capture her. Oh and I just realized I had completely forgotten about Chibiusa's debut episode where not once but TWICE Chibiusa was hiding in the room when Usagi was having a conversation with Luna. The first time she was hiding under water in the bath where I guess you can say it may have been hard for her to hear, but then later that night she is just hiding under the covers in Usagi's bed when Usagi and Luna are talking...which yeah there is no way she could have not heard them both. Plus Luna spoke again in the next episode when Chibiusa was using Luna-P to hypnotize Usagi's family. Again no plausible reason why amid total silence and standing only a few feet away Chibiusa would not have heard her.... Really though this whole debate is stupid because not even one scene later in the Sleeping Beauty episode Luna shouts "Sailor Moon, be careful!". This was in the Japanese and both English versions. Guess where Luna was standing seconds before she was shown yelling
Image
Both Luna and Artemis also talk several times after Sailor Moon has been put to sleep. In retrospect Luna really was pretty freaking terrible at keeping her secret...and if you still think Chibiusa did not know Luna could talk before the Sailor Moon reveal I dunno what to say.

Sabrblade wrote:
One would think, yet the future version of Luna or any of the cats was never shown in the R anime, providing no onsceen evidence within that season that Chibiusa knew the future version of Luna.
Okay sure it wasn't shown in R but we eventually learn that Luna's daughter Diana is Chibiusa's pet/friend... So let's not forget we are talking about the Viz dub here where the people behind it certainly know that fact. So technically pretending Chibiusa does not know about Luna seems more like a retcon based on what we know now...

Sabrblade wrote:
Do not forget that at this point in the series, Chibiusa's true identity as being Usagi's daughter is not yet known. From a narrative standpoint, we should not yet know that she is privy to such information about Luna being more than just a normal cat. For all intents and purposes, any knowledge of Luna she would have from the future shouldn't yet be made known to either Luna herself or the audience.
Well technically we did see Demande's hologram of Chibiusa's mother at the end of the previous episode who bore a remarkably similar appearance to Usagi where a good portion of the audience should have had a pretty strong idea of whom she might be if they did not already... That is besides the point though as again we are not really spoiling anything for the audience with Luna being heard while running that would not be spoiled about a minute later when Luna speaks again with Chibiusa never reacting to it in surprise... In the heat of battle Luna forgets herself again and never realizes her slip-up and Chibiusa has other things on her mind besides keeping up the charade of being oblivious.

Sabrblade wrote:
We do get a surprise reaction of Chibiusa learning that Usagi is the legendary Sailor Moon and that Usagi's friends are the other Sailor Senshi, as well as a scene of Chibiusa having to ask Mamoru for confirmation that he is Tuxedo Mask. If she didn't believe Usagi and Sailor Moon to be the same person, then why would she assume that Usagi's cat and Sailor Moon's cat were the same cat? Or that Usagi's cat was the same cat from the future who never even appeared in the season that this all happened in?
I never said anything about Chibiusa knowing Usagi was Sailor Moon because she obviously does not. Nor does she know the identity of the Inner Senshi or Tuxedo Mask. However not knowing that stuff has nothing to do with her knowing or not knowing that Usagi and Mamoru are a past version of her parents. I made a more detailed case on this last August in this thread, so I'd rather not rehash it and sidetrack the current thread with that theory discussion. If you want to reply and debate there then feel free. (It had however slipped my mind to mention about Chibiusa knowing Luna was her mothers cat and Usagi then having an identical talking cat named Luna as being another piece of strong evidence that she probably always knew...part of me wants go back and edit that in...How did I miss something so obvious.)

To your other point though I will say that until this moment Chibiusa had not really seen Sailor Moon interacting with Luna so would certainly not have thought of her as Sailor Moon's cat. (Closest she came was Luna was in the charm shop when Chibiusa broke out of the place Usagi has stuffed her at the same time that Sailor Moon was still there. But Chibiusa already knew Luna was there with Usagi and she witnessed no interaction between Luna and the senshi that we are privy to.) The Sleeping Beauty episode is the first and only instance she witnesses Luna actually working with Sailor Moon prior to learning Sailor Moon's identity. Plus as far as saying because she does not recognize Sailor Moon as Usagi that she would not recognize Luna as Luna...that is not at all the same thing. We know there is some kind of magical effect that conceals a senshi's identity when they transforms there is no other way to explain "S season" without all the senshi being totally faceblind/brain-damaged. Luna does not transform therefore there is no magic at work that would prevent her from being recognized? A black cat named Luna with a crescent moon mark on her forehead. How dumb do you think Chibiusa is that she would not question that they might be the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:39 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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When Usagi first gets her Crystal Star brooch, she says "Thank You" twice, rather than saying "Thank you..." "Mother"


That kind of ruins the moment for me. It clearly shows that they didn't follow the original script for that part of the scene. I understand it's hard to stay 100% faithful, but in key scenes such as this, they should really follow the original script.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:06 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Umino wrote:

Cloverway doesn't have Kaorinite refer to Serena as the shoe's owner. Rather, Sailor Moon exclaims "She has my glass shoe!" when Kaorinite holds it up.
Doesn't Kaornite call her "Serena Moon Face Girl" at one point? Which I always thought was the strangest thing in that dub.


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