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 Post subject: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:57 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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Let's go a bit in-depth and have a look at what exactly in the writing Viz does wrong in its dub! Why? Because it's interesting.

I can start with a few: sometimes the script gets peppered with uneeded foul language.

Some terms just flow better in Japanese such as "unforgivable".

The S fancy party episode takes the people speaking English in the original and... leaves it in English.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:34 pm 
Luna Nova
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Overly literal translations. The beginning of the first episode of S where Rei is having that nightmare and she says something like "it's approaching...the silence is fast approaching..." -- it just didn't sound right. Real people don't talk like that or use words like that, and I'm sure there are many other examples but I think that this is one area where dubbers NEED to make changes.

Japanese and English are very different languages. Sometimes, although a direct, more accurate translation might be available, it just won't sound natural in English and that makes for an awkward, non-realistic sounding dub. Overall, I think the Viz dub was fine, but this is something most dubs are guilty of at times, the Viz dub included.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:55 pm 
Solaris Luna
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The way they mispronounced Kunzite's, Berthier's, Demand(e)'s, Makoto's, and Minako's names, and occasionally mispronounced or weirdly emphasized parts of Usagi, Mamoru, Tsukino, Chibiusa, and Esmeraude.

The use of certain terms from the Kodansha manga translation (which I know aren't Viz's fault, but they're still flaws in their dub IMO) like "Legendary Silver Crystal," "Specter Sisters," "Evil spirits, be exorcised," etc (none of which are necessarily wrong or bad, just bland).

Clunky, awkward, unnatural sounding dialog.

Retaining random Japanese words ("Dokiri," "Makai," etc) for no reason.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:56 pm 
Luna
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I find it very difficult to watch. The English sounds unnatural and wooden. Stephanie Sheh's voice is annoying.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:28 pm 
Galaxias
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One rather irksome example came in the Sleeping Beauty episode of R. After Chibiusa snuck out of the house when she overheard Usagi sobbing over Mamoru supposedly having a new girlfriend, Petz and Calaveras found her and started chasing her. When Chibiusa ran from them, she cried out "Somebody help me!" Shortly after this, we see Usagi and Luna running towards her to help her and Luna calls out "We're coming, Chibiusa!" It is right at this point that Viz made their glaring mistake.

In the original Japanese version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we see Chibiusa running forward in the distance, facing the direction that Usagi and Luna are coming from, and hear her yell "Tasukete!" ("Help!" or "Help me!") at a point when she was still nowhere near Usagi or Luna just yet. Plus, her yell was a general cry for help from anybody within an earshot of her, not specifically asking for anyone in particular to help her, which strongly suggests that, despite facing Usagi's and Luna's direction, she was still far enough away to not see or hear Usagi and Luna running toward her. This is further supported by the fact that Usagi transformed into Sailor Moon while Chibiusa was running towards her and being chased by Petz and Calaveras, and yet none of the three of them ever acknowledge their having seen Usagi turn into Sailor Moon, and all three act surprised to see Sailor Moon standing before them after Usagi finishes transforming.

Viz, evidently, did not understand this and slightly changed what Chibiusa yelled. In this version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we still see Chibiusa running forward in the distance and facing that direction, but now she yells "Hurry! HELP!" in direct response to Luna's "We're coming, Chibiusa!" line. The problem with this is not only does her response sound like she was close enough to see and hear Luna, instead of being far off in the distance like she is shown to be, but the fact that it was presented as a response at all!

Chibiusa's saying "Hurry!" sounds like she HEARD what Luna said and was close enough to see Luna say what she said, despite the facts that A) Chibiusa was originally calling out to no one in particular, and B) she isn't supposed to know yet that Luna can talk!

Her use of "Hurry!" only makes sense if she was able to see and hear Luna in that moment, which not only deters the notion that Chibiusa (and the two sisters) was too far off to see or hear Usagi and Luna coming toward her, but also completely goes against the continuity of how Chibiusa doesn't find out about Usagi's cat being able to talk until after Chibiusa finds out that Usagi is Sailor Moon, as Luna pretends to be Usagi's normal non-talking cat prior to that point, trying not to ever speak in front of Chibiusa before then.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:18 am 
Solaris Luna
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Generally I find the dub fairly well-acted, but I do think the screams could use some work. The screams of agony in episode 45 felt fairly lackluster to the Japanese. They have gotten better (like Sheh had a decent scream in R during the Makai Tree arc), but they're still not as intense as the Japanese screams. Makes me kind of nervous to see how the "CRISIS, MAKE UUUUUUUUUP" scene is going to turn out.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:33 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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As someone who has seen a fair amount of dubbed anime over the years, I don't really have an issue with swearing or even the name pronunciation. Those are things in most anime dubs. Even previous official subbed releases of Sailor Moon had plenty of swearing in the subtitles like on the ADV and Pioneer release. And it can be debated how strongly kuso should be translated, but they are still saying that word in Japanese which is traditionally translated as a swear word in anime dubs. I feel like Sailor Moon has actually been fairly modest with the swearing. It's not like the Sailor Guardians are cussing like sailors (no pun intended) in every scene and it's usually kept with the bad guys. Again, name pronunciations are also a common practice in anime dubs, and always going to be difficult to nail down because of how American accents are, and it's not like the Sailor Guardians' don't badly mispronounce Engrish words all the time in the original. I would agree though that being the issue of when to be literal is probably my biggest issue with the Viz dub. Like there was that one episode where Sailor Moon saves the priest from Zoisite. When the priest gets healed, the Viz dub translates it overly literal to have him say "Love you fellow man." But it's very obvious that he's quoting the famous bible verse, "Love thy neighbor," and even the original ADV subtitles quoted the scriptures correctly. This is like one of the most famous bible verses around the world, so I don't really know why Viz got that line wrong. My other issue is that I don't like that they keep calling the Silver Crystal the "legendary" Silver Crystal. I'm fine with them using Guardians instead of Soldier because canonically that's the new official term Naoko has been using since the re-release of the manga and PGSM. I'm not an expert on Japanese by any means, but maboroshi does not mean "legendary" as far as I'm aware. I wish they could have used Illusive or Phantom or even Mystical like Pioneer used would have been better. But generally speaking, I am a big fan of the Viz dub and I actually think it's one of the best anime dubs I've seen. The Crystal dub especially has been fantastic and I would even put the dub of Crystal up there with Cowboy Bebop as one of the best English dubs.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:49 pm 
Galaxias
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Neon Genesis wrote:
As someone who has seen a fair amount of dubbed anime over the years, I don't really have an issue with swearing or even the name pronunciation. Those are things in most anime dubs. Even previous official subbed releases of Sailor Moon had plenty of swearing in the subtitles like on the ADV and Pioneer release. And it can be debated how strongly kuso should be translated, but they are still saying that word in Japanese which is traditionally translated as a swear word in anime dubs. I feel like Sailor Moon has actually been fairly modest with the swearing. It's not like the Sailor Guardians are cussing like sailors (no pun intended) in every scene and it's usually kept with the bad guys.
I don't think you understand. It's not the translating of "kuso" and its ilk into swear expletives that's bothersome, but the issue of Viz adding in additional cases of cussing in places where there were no such opportunities for them to occur in the Japanese version.

Two instances I can recall offhand of this happening in the Viz version are when Mamoru cusses out Usagi in one of her flashbacks to his breaking up with her (which also creates an inconsistency with how that scene actually played out when it first happened in the Viz dub, as he did not cuss at her then), and when Rubeus beams Sailor Moon and Chibiusa onto his UFO and Sailor Moon calls Rubeus the extended BA-word (when in the original Japanese version, she instead just said "Rubeus!"). And in the second case, it was not a lip flap-matching necessity since her cussing him out replaced her saying his name entirely, and both his name and what she said in the dub share the same number of syllables ("Ru-be-us!", "You-ba-****d!")

Neon Genesis wrote:
Again, name pronunciations are also a common practice in anime dubs, and always going to be difficult to nail down because of how American accents are, and it's not like the Sailor Guardians' don't badly mispronounce Engrish words all the time in the original.
On the other hand, there's still a difference between putting emphasis on the wrong syllable (i.e. - "Ma-ko-to" instead of "Ma-ko-to", "A-ki-ko" instead of "A-ki-ko) and flat out saying one's name incorrectly (i.e. - "Ber-thee-er" instead of "Ber-tee-ay" for "Berthier", adding an L sound to Esmeraude's name for no reason).

Neon Genesis wrote:
My other issue is that I don't like that they keep calling the Silver Crystal the "legendary" Silver Crystal. I'm fine with them using Guardians instead of Soldier because canonically that's the new official term Naoko has been using since the re-release of the manga and PGSM. I'm not an expert on Japanese by any means, but maboroshi does not mean "legendary" as far as I'm aware. I wish they could have used Illusive or Phantom or even Mystical like Pioneer used would have been better.
I get the feeling that that translation might have come from on high at Toei or Naoko herself. Even ADV used "Legendary" in their subs as well, so Viz and Kodansha may not be solely at fault for that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:04 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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The Blizzard Prince wrote:
Generally I find the dub fairly well-acted, but I do think the screams could use some work. The screams of agony in episode 45 felt fairly lackluster to the Japanese. They have gotten better (like Sheh had a decent scream in R during the Makai Tree arc), but they're still not as intense as the Japanese screams. Makes me kind of nervous to see how the "CRISIS, MAKE UUUUUUUUUP" scene is going to turn out.


It's amazing how the original Japanese VAs were able to pull off such emotional screams and make it out alright. Maybe the Viz dub wants to spare its talent so that they don't wear their VAs out too much.

Fun Fact: Kotono Mitsuishi also played the hyperactive Excel in Excel Saga. The original English VA for Excel was worn out by 13 episodes in, and they had to replace her because it was so difficult and tiring to recreate what Kotono originally did.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:23 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Lunatastic wrote:
It's amazing how the original Japanese VAs were able to pull off such emotional screams and make it out alright. Maybe the Viz dub wants to spare its talent so that they don't wear their VAs out too much.

It is amazing, and part of why the Japanese version will always be my favorite. :love: That's what I thought, but I don't have that problem with their screams in Crystal. It seems to be something specific with the 90s anime, at least so far.

Lunatastic wrote:
Fun Fact: Kotono Mitsuishi also played the hyperactive Excel in Excel Saga. The original English VA for Excel was worn out by 13 episodes in, and they had to replace her because it was so difficult and tiring to recreate what Kotono originally did.

I remember hearing about that. It's impressive Kotono was able to play a role like that without wearing out.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:51 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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This is a good example of some of the little more unnatural sounding writing and acting in the Viz dub.

In the original DiC dub, Mars' line was like this: "My music! Why you scaly flounder! AAARGGH!" :3 Cheesy, but it feels a fair bit more natural.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:49 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Honestly "You'll pay!' would've worked 100x better.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:30 am 
Galaxias
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Umino wrote:
Honestly "You'll pay!' would've worked 100x better.
While I don't disagree, I feel that "You'll pay!" is too short to match the visible lip flaps for when she yells her second "Unforgivable!" Maybe something like "How dare you!" might have fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:45 am 
Solaris Luna
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What about "You'll pay for that!" or "I'll make you pay!"?

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:17 am 
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Sabrblade wrote:
One rather irksome example came in the Sleeping Beauty episode of R. After Chibiusa snuck out of the house when she overheard Usagi sobbing over Mamoru supposedly having a new girlfriend, Petz and Calaveras found her and started chasing her. When Chibisa ran from them, she cried out "Somebody help me!" Shortly after this, we see Usagi and Luna running towards her to help her and Luna calls out "We're coming, Chibiusa!" It is right at this point that Viz made their glaring mistake.

In the original Japanese version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we see Chibiusa running forward in the distance, facing the direction that Usagi and Luna are coming from, and hear her yell "Tasukete!" ("Help!" or "Help me!") at a point when she was still nowhere near Usagi or Luna just yet. Plus, her yell was a general cry for help from anybody within an earshot of her, not specifically asking for anyone in particular to help her, which strongly suggests that, despite facing Usagi's and Luna's direction, she was still far enough away to not see or hear Usagi and Luna running toward her. This is further supported by the fact that Usagi transformed into Sailor Moon while Chibiusa was running towards her and being chased by Petz and Calaveras, and yet none of the three of them ever acknowledge their having seen Usagi turn into Sailor Moon, and all three act surprised to see Sailor Moon standing before them after Usagi finishes transforming.

Viz, evidently, did not understand this and slightly changed what Chibiusa yelled. In this version, right after Luna called out to Chibiusa, we still see Chibiusa running forward in the distance and facing that direction, but now she yells "Hurry! HELP!" in direct response to Luna's "We're coming, Chibiusa!" line. The problem with this is not only does her response sound like she was close enough to see and hear Luna, instead of being far off in the distance like she is shown to be, but the fact that it was presented as a response at all!

Chibiusa's saying "Hurry!" sounds like she HEARD what Luna said and was close enough to see Luna say what she said, despite the facts that A) Chibiusa was originally calling out to no one in particular, and B) she isn't supposed to know yet that Luna can talk!

Her use of "Hurry!" only makes sense if she was able to see and hear Luna in that moment, which not only deters the notion that Chibiusa (and the two sisters) was too far off to see or hear Usagi and Luna coming toward her, but also completely goes against the continuity of how Chibiusa doesn't find out about Usagi's cat talking until after Chibiusa finds out that Usagi is Sailor Moon, as Luna pretends to be Usagi normal non-talking cat prior to that point, trying not to ever speak in front of Chibiusa before then.


That's ridiculous you would think they would do better at keeping accuracy with things like that. The rest of the stuff mentioned on this thread seems minor but this is a major flaw in accuracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:45 am 
Galaxias
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
What about "You'll pay for that!" or "I'll make you pay!"?
I'm not sure. ^_^'

Let's look at the four options that have been suggested so far. Based on how Rei originally used the phrase "Yurusenai... YURUSENAI!!!", which of the following sounds the most natural for an English speaker to use in the same context as both the original phrase and Viz's unnatural translation of "Unforgivable... UNFORGIVABLE!!!":


Option 1: "You'll pay... YOU'LL PAY!!!"

Option 2: "How dare you... HOW DARE YOU!!!"

Option 3: "You'll pay for that... YOU'LL PAY FOR THAT!!!"

Option 4: "I'll make you pay... I'LL MAKE YOU PAY!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:57 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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Sabrblade wrote:
MementoNepenthe wrote:
What about "You'll pay for that!" or "I'll make you pay!"?
I'm not sure. ^_^'

Let's look at the four options that have been suggested so far. Based on how Rei originally used the phrase "Yurusenai... YURUSENAI!!!", which of the following sounds the most natural for an English speaker to use in the same context as both the original phrase and Viz's unnatural translation of "Unforgivable... UNFORGIVABLE!!!":


Option 1: "You'll pay... YOU'LL PAY!!!"

Option 2: "How dare you... HOW DARE YOU!!!"

Option 3: "You'll pay for that... YOU'LL PAY FOR THAT!!!"

Option 4: "I'll make you pay... I'LL MAKE YOU PAY!!!"


I'm going with option two. I kinda wish they did some redux in to go over any errors and unnatural-sounding dialogue for something like TV airings. My personal replacement of the line goes something like this:

"How could you... YOU'LL PAY FOR THIS!"

The monster's line: "Be quiet!"

And Artemis' line: "It looks like Mars just discovered her hidden ability too!"

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:22 am 
Galaxias
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This other flaw one was pointed out in another thread, one that talked about the S redub when it came out on Blu-Ray/DVD.

In Kaolinite's final episode that took place at Tokyo Tower, Viz made the same mistake Cloverway made in that, after Cenicienta was destroyed, Kaolinite held the glass slipper that Cenicienta was made from and referred to Sailor Moon as its owner. By doing this, she sounds like she knows that Usagi is Sailor Moon, despite the fact that Minako's Sailor Moon disguise was supposed to have already previously convinced her that Usagi wasn't Sailor Moon.

In the original Japanese version, when Kaolinite holds up the slipper, she does not refer its owner (Sailor Moon, Usagi, or anyone) at all, so this goof is all on Viz (and Cloverway).

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:43 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Sabrblade wrote:
In the original Japanese version, when Kaolinite holds up the slipper, she does not refer its owner (Sailor Moon, Usagi, or anyone) at all, so this goof is all on Viz (and Cloverway).


Cloverway doesn't have Kaorinite refer to Serena as the shoe's owner. Rather, Sailor Moon exclaims "She has my glass shoe!" when Kaorinite holds it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:00 pm 
Galaxias
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Umino wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
In the original Japanese version, when Kaolinite holds up the slipper, she does not refer its owner (Sailor Moon, Usagi, or anyone) at all, so this goof is all on Viz (and Cloverway).


Cloverway doesn't have Kaorinite refer to Serena as the shoe's owner. Rather, Sailor Moon exclaims "She has my glass shoe!" when Kaorinite holds it up.
Hmm. Someone in that other thread said that Viz repeated a goof Cloverway made by having the slipper's owner be mentioned by someone in that scene, when no owner was mentioned in the Japanese version.

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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:20 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Sabrblade wrote:
Hmm. Someone in that other thread said that Viz repeated a goof Cloverway made by having the slipper's owner be mentioned by someone in that scene, when no owner was mentioned in the Japanese version.


They were probably just referring the fact Sailor Moon refers to the shoe as her own. Kaorinite never identifies the owner. The original dub also makes it seem like Uranus figured out Serena was Sailor Moon.


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 Post subject: Re: Flaws in the Viz dub to point out cuz I dunno
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:11 am 
Galaxias
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Aha! I found the post:
PokemonBWDub wrote:
Well here's an unfortunate note. Looks like Viz Media repeated the same mistake as CWi and had it so Kaolinite knew Sailor Moon was Usagi at the climax of their battle and Usagi even admitting in front of everyone it was her glass shoe.

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