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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:10 pm 
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MariaTenebre wrote:
Also I would add to Meteor Break the cats and birds having human forms was not random they were stated to be from the same planets as Sailor Lead Crow and Sailor Tin Nyanko respectively.

It was random, and a retcon I never cared for. I didn't even like it when the S movie did it. Keep them as animals please.

magic713 wrote:
I totally agree in part of them coming back as puppets. While I hate that they died in Stars from both 90's anime and and manga (though I was fine with them dying in the first season), the whole thing with them coming back as evil puppets to fight Sailor Moon was just salt on the wound.

Frankly I hated how every character other then Usagi was treated in manga Stars. But bringing Mamoru and the Senshi back just so they could be killed of again was the limit for me.
Mind control is a tiresomely overused plot device by Naoko.
It also highlighted just how redundant it was for Usagi to have a team by that point, as she had become so ridiculously overpowered by the end. Rendering any progress Naoko was actually making in the previous arc, pointless...

I'll be avoiding Crystal's adaptation like the plague.


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:51 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Meteor Break wrote:
It was random, and a retcon I never cared for. I didn't even like it when the S movie did it. Keep them as animals please.


I don't think "random" is the best word for it. It's just a retcon. But do you have any specific reasons why you don't like that the cats, etc. have human forms? Yes, it could have been done better -- Takeuchi is not perfect and writing is not one of her strong suits -- but I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea itself. At least Crystal addressed this by alluding to/briefly showing Luna's human form in the first season. Do you just not like how the idea was implemented, or is there something grievously offensive to you about the idea of the cats and the birds having human forms?

Because this idea implemented some great world-building even though it wasn't necessarily done well.

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Frankly I hated how every character other then Usagi was treated in manga Stars.


The concept of the Stars arc was to isolate Usagi completely. It's fine if you're not into this or if you don't like how the Inners and Outers were handled, but there are some truly powerful messages in the Stars arc if you look past this. You can hate how every other character was treated -- but how do you feel about how Usagi herself was treated? Because that's kind of the point.

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But bringing Mamoru and the Senshi back just so they could be killed of again was the limit for me.


Doesn't this only last like one chapter though? I actually enjoyed this, I thought it truly highlighted Usagi's isolation.

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Mind control is a tiresomely overused plot device by Naoko.


Yes it is, this is another one of her weaknesses as a writer. At the same time, though, Galaxia was basically just being controlled or corrupted in the 90s anime, whereas in the manga she's more of a nuanced character with her own thoughts and ambitions -- and she learns something very profound her own way, she isn't freed from corruption by Usagi's love or anything like what we saw in the 90s anime. She doesn't turn around and become a good guy again just because she realizes this important lesson; she likely still dies a villain, even though she realizes that Sailor Moon's power of saving and protecting is truly profound and more powerful than her own abilities.

Just trying to point it out, that's all. Mind-control is indeed overused by Takeuchi, but the 90s anime exacerbated this issue by extending the amount of time Mamoru was brainwashed in the first season and by turning Sailor Galaxia -- a fascinating character who owns her own ambitions -- into a brainwashed martyr.

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It also highlighted just how redundant it was for Usagi to have a team by that point, as she had become so ridiculously overpowered by the end.


You are correct, but I'm wondering why you're choosing to be upset or disappointed by this highlight of redundancy instead of choosing to view it more critically?

The whole purpose of Sailor Moon's existence -- the reason why Queen Serenity went to the Galaxy Cauldron with that "tiny husk" of a Star Seed -- was to create a "new history for the stars" and effectively create a new type of Sailor Soldier. Even though she's part of a team, her power continues to grow until she eventually doesn't need them.

That's the point.

That's why Sailor Cosmos is angry at her solitude.

Because she doesn't need a "team" or people to protect her. She needs her loved ones, because she loves them.

She can connect to all of the Sailor Crystals in the entire galaxy and she still can't be reunited with her friends, or with Mamoru.

So she goes back and tries to fix her mistake, and tries to end everything so she wouldn't have to go through with this isolation...

But she realizes that Eternal Sailor Moon is the "true" Sailor Cosmos. Her past self is stronger than her, because she is willing to live her life into the future even if things become uncertain or even if there's a chance of losing people.

Usagi/Sailor Moon/Sailor Cosmos does indeed become overpowered by the end, but all of these elements play together and create something truly profound. It's not as simple and dry as "she doesn't need a team because she's so powerful." What a boring interpretation.

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Rendering any progress Naoko was actually making in the previous arc, pointless...


Again...what a boring interpretation of the text. I think the reversal of expectations was very intentional. Going from the feeling of unity and the concept of a "bold new future" in the Dream arc, to the loneliness and despair and the uncertainty of the future in the Stars arc...I think that's beautiful.

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I'll be avoiding Crystal's adaptation like the plague.


You do that. I of course politely disagree -- I find the manga version of Stars to be highly profound and deeply philosophical. That arc explores Usagi's presentation as a Christ-like figure, the concept of the "power to lose everything" before finding the "power to save everything", self-hatred, the notion of all things in the universe actually being one, and other fascinating topics. The manga's flaw is that it's just too short and unfortunately doesn't go into a lot of detail on these topics, but its brevity and vagueness adds to the mystery and charm of this arc in my opinion. I've spoken to translators who have done scanlations of this arc in the past and they told me that the Japanese used in Stars can, at times, be very subtle and difficult to truly decipher. I think that's fascinating.

And so I gladly look forward to the Crystal version of Stars, because that story deserves to be told.

All in all, the manga has lots of flaws and there are certainly things that the 90s anime did better (many of the villains had actual and even memorable personalities, for example), but a lot of it depends on your own interpretation of the manga. If you go into it expecting a straight-up team/Sentai story then you'll be sorely disappointed.

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:40 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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I don't quite get how adding a new development to characters is a retcon?


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:09 pm 
Luna Crescens
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Neon Genesis wrote:
I don't quite get how adding a new development to characters is a retcon?

They were shown as cats in the Silver Millenium. It was not like we never knew who they were in the past.
And if they were human, how come they never felt sadness for being in the form of animals?
Naoko had this idea when the series was already reaching its end, while there was already no room for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:28 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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I think retconning typically refers to when comics completely erase or rewrite key aspects of their character for a new continuity like the New 52 comics or more recently when Superman
Spoiler: show
went back in time to erase his relationship with Wonder Woman.
In any case, I don't see that having Luna and Artemis being human is somehow more random than them being magical talking cats to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 8:26 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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kevoso96 wrote:
Neon Genesis wrote:
I don't quite get how adding a new development to characters is a retcon?

They were shown as cats in the Silver Millenium. It was not like we never knew who they were in the past.
And if they were human, how come they never felt sadness for being in the form of animals?
Naoko had this idea when the series was already reaching its end, while there was already no room for it.


You're looking at it too literally, though.

The story never says "the cats were human once and now they're human again" and it also doesn't ever state that the cats DIDN'T have the capacity to become human.

Introducing an ability that was specifically referenced as not existing prior is a real retcon.

If, for example, Sailor Pluto would suddenly be able to stop time at will and suffer no consequences (and consequently we had no explanation or a very convoluted explanation for this), that would be a retcon because it's changing something that was previously established.

Them being cats in the Silver Millennium does not negate the possibility that they might be able to take on human form even back then.

Nor does it assume that they are "sad" for being in a non-human form (not counting Luna when she falls in love with a human briefly). To answer your question: maybe they liked or preferred being cats! :P :P "How come they weren't sad" is a pretty weak argument all around.

Rather, it is inferred that the people of Mau can shift between their feline forms and their human forms, and for whatever reason Luna and Artemis saw fit to remain as cats for most of the time.

In fact it's more accurate to say that they're not human, but rather humanoid. To them, appearing as cats might be a very natural thing for them.

It doesn't actually contradict anything at all.

It was rushed (everything in the SM manga is rushed) but it's not particularly offensive, nor is it "random" and even though I agreed it was a retcon, like Neon Genesis said it's more accurate to say that it's a character development that was only thought up later on. Just because it was thought up at a later point in time doesn't mean it's a retcon because it specifically doesn't contradict anything that came before.

Out of universe: Takeuchi didn't think of it until late in the manga.
In-universe: it's possible that the cats were hiding it all this time, because nothing really contradicts this.

EDIT: Wikimoon states that Luna (as well as Artemis and Diana) could take on human form in times of crisis. This isn't referenced but it makes sense from what I remember. It would make a lot of sense if they could only take human form in specific instances.

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:41 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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The simple answer is their human forms weren't shown because Naoko hadn't planned that far in the story and it was originally only going to last for one story arc. But I don't think that counts as a retcon anymore than it's a retcon that Sailor Uranus and Neptune are never mentioned in either the Moon Kingdom or Crystal Tokyo, which I think is actually a bigger plot hole than human Luna and Artremis.


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:43 pm 
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I'm not crazy about it only because it's introduced so late in the story. Naoko obviously came up with the idea of Luna's human form for the Snow Princess Kaguya story (where it works because it's attributed to ~Christmas magic~ basically) and then decided to incorporate it into the manga proper, along with human forms for Artemis, Diana, Phobos, and Deimos (who she finally remembered existed during the Dream arc and decided to give them the least development possible. Why didn't they speak and act as Rei's guardians/mentors from the get-go?). However, I'm more bothered by their extra-solar origins as aliens from Mau and Coronois because that felt really corny and out of left field to me.

Anyway, in-universe, it makes sense that they stayed in their cat/crow forms as it would be easier for them to join Usagi's, Minako's, and Rei's families/households as pets than as total strangers.

I kind of wish the musicals would feature their human forms. The people in cat costumes thing from the very first musical was really awkward and didn't work at all, but at the same time, it's weird having a version of Sailor Moon that doesn't have Luna and Artemis in it in some way. I don't know about anyone else, but I personally feel their absence and I wish the musicals would take advantage of their having human(oid) forms as a way to include the characters.

Maybe for #6?

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:36 pm 
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
I'm not crazy about it only because it's introduced so late in the story. Naoko obviously came up with the idea of Luna's human form for the Snow Princess Kaguya story (where it works because it's attributed to ~Christmas magic~ basically) and then decided to incorporate it into the manga proper, along with human forms for Artemis, Diana, Phobos, and Deimos (who she finally remembered existed during the Dream arc and decided to give them the least development possible. Why didn't they speak and act as Rei's guardians/mentors from the get-go?). However, I'm more bothered by their extra-solar origins as aliens from Mau and Coronois because that felt really corny and out of left field to me.

Anyway, in-universe, it makes sense that they stayed in their cat/crow forms as it would be easier for them to join Usagi's, Minako's, and Rei's families/households as pets than as total strangers.

I kind of wish the musicals would feature their human forms. The people in cat costumes thing from the very first musical was really awkward and didn't work at all, but at the same time, it's weird having a version of Sailor Moon that doesn't have Luna and Artemis in it in some way. I don't know about anyone else, but I personally feel their absence and I wish the musicals would take advantage of their having human(oid) forms as a way to include the characters.

Maybe for #6?
Wait,in the musicals Luna and Artemis don't exist?


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:57 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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SignorinaTsukino wrote:
Wait,in the musicals Luna and Artemis don't exist?


Correct -- for the most part. They were in the very first musical and I assume in its revision musical (which was never filmed, unfortunately). It didn't really work out very well, or at least I didn't think so. They haven't been included in any of the other musicals.

As much as I love the Moon Cats, I think the musicals work better without them. They basically exist for exposition and we get that delivered to the audience in a unique way in the musicals (you know...through song and dance). They didn't contribute anything of significance to the plot in their first/only musical.

Moreover, while I tend to take the musicals very seriously and I'm a big fan of them overall, even I couldn't take Luna and Artemis seriously in the first musical. It's a good thing that they were removed from that point onward.

I wouldn't be opposed to the cats returning -- a stage adaptation of the Princess Snow Kaguya story would be pretty cool -- but they would have to play a more central part of the story instead of just being there. Sera Myu is crowded enough as it is in most of its shows.

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:04 pm 
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It'd be easier for me to list things that I didn't like more in the 90s anime. The character development, the villains, the less-rushed story arcs, Ikuko Itoh's artwork being the best in the entire franchise, etc. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:16 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Seen2 wrote:
the less-rushed story arcs


Oh yeah, the 90s anime definitely had less-rushed story arcs -- they were padded more than a newbie drag queen sticking Styrofoam to her butt. It's the exact opposite of the manga's problem (and thus Crystal's problem).

PGSM did a better job pacing the story in 50 or so episodes than the 90s anime did, IMO, and the stuff they made up for that version to pad out the story (Dark Mercury, Princess Sailor Moon, Sailor Luna, Kuroki Mio, Minako's entire story, Mamoru's fiance, etc.) felt more organic and made more sense than certain choices made in the 90s version of the first arc (Naru and Nephrite, the Rainbow Crystals, and so on).

Hell, I don't even LIKE concepts such as Sailor Luna and Princess Sailor Moon, and I still think that those story elements carved a plot with better pacing than the 90s anime.

Beyond the first arc: Hotaru is introduced in the early chapters of the Infinity arc, if not the very first chapter (depending on which edition of the manga you're reading). Waiting half a season to be introduced to a central character who is introduced waaaaay earlier in the manga is insane. Additionally: the break-up arc in R is ridiculous, SuperS didn't do anything remotely resembling the original story until maybe the last 6 episodes and even then it was hardly recognizable, and the Sailor Stars anime completely missed the point of the Stars arc by having monster-of-the-day stories in a story that really isn't about that at all.

Yes, the story arcs certainly were not rushed -- they dragged on.

Again, which is not to say that all of the padded elements were bad. The beach/ghost episode from the first season is actually one of my favorite episodes in the entire show and I like SuperS more than I let on.

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:30 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Maybe not Luna and Artemis, but I wish they could at least include Naru and Umino in the musicals. I thought the S season had the best pacing of the 90s anime as a whole and I think it made sense for them to wait until the second half to introduce Hotaru. In the previous seasons, they always saved at least one or two major Sailor Guardians to introduce in the second half. They didn't introduce Jupiter until episode 25 and Venus didn't show up till much later. Pluto also didn't show up in R until late in the second half. So I assumed S was following that formula by waiting to introduce the next big Guardian for the second half as the 90s anime was very big on following a formulaic approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:34 pm 
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John wrote:
Seen2 wrote:
the less-rushed story arcs


Oh yeah, the 90s anime definitely had less-rushed story arcs -- they were padded more than a newbie drag queen sticking Styrofoam to her butt. It's the exact opposite of the manga's problem (and thus Crystal's problem).

PGSM did a better job pacing the story in 50 or so episodes than the 90s anime did, IMO, and the stuff they made up for that version to pad out the story (Dark Mercury, Princess Sailor Moon, Sailor Luna, Kuroki Mio, Minako's entire story, Mamoru's fiance, etc.) felt more organic and made more sense than certain choices made in the 90s version of the first arc (Naru and Nephrite, the Rainbow Crystals, and so on).

Hell, I don't even LIKE concepts such as Sailor Luna and Princess Sailor Moon, and I still think that those story elements carved a plot with better pacing than the 90s anime.

Beyond the first arc: Hotaru is introduced in the early chapters of the Infinity arc, if not the very first chapter (depending on which edition of the manga you're reading). Waiting half a season to be introduced to a central character who is introduced waaaaay earlier in the manga is insane. Additionally: the break-up arc in R is ridiculous, SuperS didn't do anything remotely resembling the original story until maybe the last 6 episodes and even then it was hardly recognizable, and the Sailor Stars anime completely missed the point of the Stars arc by having monster-of-the-day stories in a story that really isn't about that at all.

Yes, the story arcs certainly were not rushed -- they dragged on.

Again, which is not to say that all of the padded elements were bad. The beach/ghost episode from the first season is actually one of my favorite episodes in the entire show and I like SuperS more than I let on.



well said John I agree I always hated how fast paced Crystal was (which was also the problem with the first Manga arc too) also the artwork didn't help anything either (CGI Transformations were terrible), as for the the beach episode of the first season I usually skipped it myself I just found it boring and pointless (although I did enjoy Usagi taking a beach ball to the face :lol: )

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:39 pm 
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To be fair, for the manga, the chapters were originally released monthly, not all at once, so it didn't feel fast paced. Crystal has no excuse, though for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:41 pm 
Systema Solare
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magic713 wrote:
To be fair, for the manga, the chapters were originally released monthly, not all at once, so it didn't feel fast paced. Crystal has no excuse, though for this.


yeah but Miss Takeuchi was Rushed by her Director so the first Arc was not as good as the later Arcs (had Miss Takeuchi not been rushed the Manga would've been perfect and more beautiful than it was)

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:43 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Neon Genesis wrote:
Maybe not Luna and Artemis, but I wish they could at least include Naru and Umino in the musicals. I thought the S season had the best pacing of the 90s anime as a whole and I think it made sense for them to wait until the second half to introduce Hotaru. In the previous seasons, they always saved at one or two major Sailor Guardians to introduce in the second half. They didn't introduce Jupiter until episode 25 and Venus didn't show up till much later. Pluto also didn't show up in R until late in the second half. So I assumed S was following that formula by waiting to introduce the next big Guardian for the second half as the 90s anime was very big on following a formulaic approach.


That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it holds up.

I was talking about introducing Hotaru, not Sailor Saturn. She plays a huge role in the overall story and is directly connected to the enemies of that story. Furthermore, I'm not sure if you can really compare that to Jupiter and Venus. Venus was introduced first as Sailor V in both the manga and anime (well that's a whole other topic, I guess) and Jupiter was introduced in the fifth chapter (or I believe a quick cameo at the end of chapter four). I was talking about Hotaru who was introduced in the first or second chapter of the Infinity arc, and also has more plot relevance than Jupiter and Venus did.

Pluto not showing up until the second half of R is also somewhat "correct" because that's roughly when she's introduced in the manga version of that story arc as well.

In addition to all of that, Uranus and Neptune are shown in the very first episode of S, so clearly there wasn't a formula of waiting to introduce a Sailor Soldier for the second half.

Honestly the whole thing would've been better if the 90s anime just stuck to the original story a *little* bit more in seasons like S. I actually rank S the highest in quality out of all of the seasons (though it's not necessarily my favorite) so I'm not even saying that because I dislike S. The first episode of Sailor Moon follows the manga chapter quite closely, and the first two story arcs are more or less represented accurately (though R starts doing its own thing in different places, it still hits most of the same story beats as the Black Moon arc in the manga). For some reason they decided to really change things up starting with S.

Ryo Urawa wrote:
as for the the beach episode of the first season I usually skipped it myself I just found it boring and pointless (although I did enjoy Usagi taking a beach ball to the face :lol: )


Yeah, it's a pointless episode, but I'm a sucker for two things: 1) stories set near the ocean/on beaches; and 2) stories about ghosts or that are set in "spooky" houses with traditional monsters thrown in. Combine those two with Sailor Moon, which I also of course love, and there you go. :smug:

Also, I enjoy hearing the VA for Himemiya Anthy voicing Sakiko in that episode -- she later voices Cyprine (or Ptilol...one of them lmao).

magic713 wrote:
To be fair, for the manga, the chapters were originally released monthly, not all at once, so it didn't feel fast paced. Crystal has no excuse, though for this.


Yes, this is very true. Most English-speakers experienced the manga in volume format so we definitely didn't get that monthly experience.

The only "excuse" I can give Crystal is that they're simply adapting the manga straight-up. I can see now that maybe having all 26 episodes for the first story arc would have been better than following the manga one-to-one, but at the same time, if they had just adapted the story more accurately the first time, we wouldn't have needed a second anime.

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:39 am 
Luna Nova
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This is just speculation on my part, but I think Hotaru wasn't introduced in the beginning of S because A. Chibiusa wasn't there, and B. (more importantly), they wanted to develop Haruka and Michiru more at the time rather than juggle too many characters at once (look at poor Setsuna in R ending up taking a backseat to Chibiusa and the Black Moon Clan).

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:55 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Generally, I think the pacing for the first two arcs of the original anime was pretty good (especially the first season which I thought was the most balanced out of all of the seasons of Sailor Moon).

My issue with S' pacing wasn't how late Hotaru was revealed... In fact, it made a lot of sense because the first part of S dealt with finding the Talismans and Uranus and Neptune's conflicting feelings of having to sacrifice innocent lives. It would have been nice if we had some reference of Hotaru or the school, but I think as a trade off we got great development for Haruka and Michiru's relationship (which was missing in the manga).

However, I hated how the other Witches got the shaft compared to Mimette and Eudial and they fumbled with the last two episodes, honestly.

SuperS was genuinely awful pacing wise. Plot development moved at a snail's pace except for critical episodes. But from what I've read, Naoko actually took a longer time to develop the Dream arc of the manga so the anime was forced to kill time... IDK how true that is.

Sailor Stars had bigger issues than pacing...


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:09 am 
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I liked how the storyline was based around everyone. Everyone had a part in the show and if they didn't they would still be important towards the show.


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:09 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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In regards to what I liked about the S season in the 90s anime more, I liked that Uranus and Neptune didn't know they were the keepers of the talismans until their heart crystals were stolen. I thought it made for an exciting plot twist and the scene of Uranus sacrificing herself for the talisman is still one of the saddest moments in the 90s anime. The heart crystal arc in general was really well done and I appreciate that it added more moral complexity to the story.


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:59 am 
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Rei’s characterization and dynamic with Usagi

the subordinate villains being given characterization and proper development

the rather dramatic fashion in which Moon loses an old power gets a new one in R and S.

Chibi Usa not being 900 years old

The way in reach Neo Queen Serenity gets through to Black Lady/Chibi Usa

Some villains not being beyond redemption. Although the anime did it too much (to the point in SuperS the only villain to not reform was Zirconia)


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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:17 pm 
Stella
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
I'm not crazy about it only because it's introduced so late in the story. Naoko obviously came up with the idea of Luna's human form for the Snow Princess Kaguya story (where it works because it's attributed to ~Christmas magic~ basically) and then decided to incorporate it into the manga proper, along with human forms for Artemis, Diana, Phobos, and Deimos (who she finally remembered existed during the Dream arc and decided to give them the least development possible. Why didn't they speak and act as Rei's guardians/mentors from the get-go?). However, I'm more bothered by their extra-solar origins as aliens from Mau and Coronois because that felt really corny and out of left field to me.

Anyway, in-universe, it makes sense that they stayed in their cat/crow forms as it would be easier for them to join Usagi's, Minako's, and Rei's families/households as pets than as total strangers.

I kind of wish the musicals would feature their human forms. The people in cat costumes thing from the very first musical was really awkward and didn't work at all, but at the same time, it's weird having a version of Sailor Moon that doesn't have Luna and Artemis in it in some way. I don't know about anyone else, but I personally feel their absence and I wish the musicals would take advantage of their having human(oid) forms as a way to include the characters.

Maybe for #6?

I agree with what you are saying with regards to Phobos and Deimos I think that they should have been able to talk from the start and be Rei's guardian animal the same way Luna is for Usagi and Artemis is for Minako. Point in fact I think that Phobos and Deimos should have been the one to give Rei her transformation pen in Classic. I would have also liked to see how the two would have interacted with Luna and Artemis.

Honestly I would have even taken it one step further and have that Phobos and Deimos become Sailor Senshi and become Sailor Phobos and Sailor Deimos and go from being Rei's Guardian Animals to her Guardian Senshi. This would fit because they two were said to be Sailor Senshi in training in the manga and had genuine Sailor Crystals.

Also I have to say to Ryo I loved the beach episode o the first season I loved the very Addams family like people they stayed in and thought Sakiko is very endearing. I actually have a head canon that the people of penchant Addams were a Japanese side of the Addams family.

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:21 pm 
Systema Solare
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^^^interesting idea Maria I'm curious did all that happen in the manga? (never read the manga so i don't know)

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:27 pm 
Solaris Luna
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MariaTenebre wrote:
I agree with what you are saying with regards to Phobos and Deimos I think that they should have been able to talk from the start and be Rei's guardian animal the same way Luna is for Usagi and Artemis is for Minako. Point in fact I think that Phobos and Deimos should have been the one to give Rei her transformation pen in Classic. I would have also liked to see how the two would have interacted with Luna and Artemis.

Honestly I would have even taken it one step further and have that Phobos and Deimos become Sailor Senshi and become Sailor Phobos and Sailor Deimos and go from being Rei's Guardian Animals to her Guardian Senshi. This would fit because they two were said to be Sailor Senshi in training in the manga and had genuine Sailor Crystals.


Unfortunately you're a bit mistaken about Phobos and Deimos.

From the official Kodansha translation of the manga:

From the end of Act 52, Stars 3:

Quote:
Lead Crow: I recognized the light of your star seeds immediately... Just show yourselves already, won't you? Heh heh.
Lead Crow: Phobos! Deimos!
Lead Crow: Long time no see, Phobos, Deimos!
Phobos and Deimos: ...Lead Crow...!


From the beginning of Act 53, Stars 4:

Quote:
Lead Crow: Phobos, Deimos... Your powers were selected by the princess of Mars, the planet that shines most sublimely in the Milky Way... You were granted your names and corresponding moons, and became the princess's partners...you lucky twins!
Lead Crow: We were once fellow soldier trainees, each with our own dreams, remember? But I am no longer that young thing! I am Sailor Lead Crow, a Sailor Guardian!
Phobos and Deimos: A Sailor Guardian?!
Lead Crow: All creatures that live in the Milky Way possess star seeds... And among them, those who possess select star seeds, the Sailor Crystals, are entitled to claim the title "Sailor Guardian!"
Phobos and Deimos: But the only one who may call herself Sailor Guardian on our planet Coronis is she who defends it...Sailor Coronis, alone!


There's a LOT to unpack here.

1. Phobos and Deimos recognize Lead Crow immediately by name. "Lead Crow" is not some assumed name she's using; it's her actual name. This suggests that Galaxia completely coincidentally happened to find a group of women throughout the Milky Way who were power hungry and willing to join her who all just happened to have metal + animal names.

2. All creatures in the Milky Way have star seeds... So what about those who live outside the Milky Way? Or is the implication here that there is no life outside the Milky Way?

3. Lead Crow says Sailor Crystals entitle their possessors to the title of "Sailor Guardian" but that doesn't necessarily mean one without a Sailor Crystal can't call themself a "Sailor Guardian." (Also, regardless of what Naoko may have said after the fact, nothing in the actual text of the manga says only women can be Sailor Guardians.)

4. Phobos and Deimos have star seeds and powers, but they do not have Sailor Crystals.

5. There is obviously some close link between the planets of Coronis and Mars. I wish this could be explored more as I find it very interesting. Sailor Coronis is the only of the usurped Sailor Guardians we get any kind of glimpse of and she sort of resembles Sailor Mars. I wonder if there's some sort of connection/relation there. I also wonder if the other planets of our Solar System had similar relationships/alliances with extrasolar planets.

6. Phobos, Deimos, and Lead Crow were all soldiers in training together. I'd love to learn more about that specifically. It could make for a great one-shot or even possibly a whole spin-off series.

7. Mars apparently went to Coronis and not only hand-picked Phobos and Deimos to be her partners, she also named them and gave (possibly created?) moons to them. What were Phobos and Deimos's birth names then?

8. What were Phobos, Deimos, and Lead Crow's dreams?

9. Since Mars hand-picked her partners, does that mean Venus and Queen Serenity likewise traveled to Mau and handpicked Artemis and Luna? / Why did Artemis and Luna travel to separate 'planets' in our solar system? Why not go from Mau to the same planet? Or did they not know each other on Mau and came to our solar system separately?

(And, just in case anyone's interested, here's Tokyopop's somewhat wonky translation of this scene:)

Quote:
LC: I saw your Star Seed lights from miles away. Come on out. Phobos! Deimos! It's been a while, Phobos, Deimos!
P&D: Red Crow! :sick:
LC: Phobos, Deimos. The lucky twins selected by the princess of the brightest star in the galaxy, Mars, of the solar system. We were all in training then. But it's different now! I am Sailor Red Crow, a Sailor Scout!
P&D: A Sailor Scout?!
LC: All of us in this galaxy carry a Star Seed. Only ones with chosen Star Seeds, the Sailor Crystals, can call themselves a Sailor Scout! On star Kronos, :sick: I am the one, the only, Sailor Kronos!


MissDream's translation is completely wrong so I'm not gonna even bother transcribing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:50 pm 
Luna Crescens
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I like how it developed the characters more and added filler so the series got room to breath and have some fun (although there might be too much). I wish Saturn had more screen time, a few episodes focusing on Happy Outers Family and Chibiusa had a proper goodbye scene or episode, but besides that's it's all good! :happy: except for the starlights

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:58 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Usagi, period. She looks so cute specifically in the first season!

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:39 am 
Stella
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SailorChibiChan wrote:
I like how it developed the characters more and added filler so the series got room to breath and have some fun (although there might be too much). I wish Saturn had more screen time, a few episodes focusing on Happy Outers Family and Chibiusa had a proper goodbye scene or episode, but besides that's it's all good! :happy: except for the starlights

Yeah the Outers definitely deserved more screen time. It was utterly ridiculous and detrimental to the plot and story with how they got shafted in SuperS and Sailor Stars. Especially Sailor Saturn who only appeared during the Nehellenia arc and the finale of Sailor Stars. They could have say put some episodes in showing Hotaru missing Chibiusa. Maybe making friends with Chibiusa's friends Momoko and Kyuusuke or even showing her baby sitting and playing with Chibi Chibi. It also annoyed me how the Outers didn't get any new Super attacks or transformations and yet the fricking Starlights got not one but two attack and transformation animations. The Outers were supposed to be main characters like the Inners and the Starlights were supposed to be minor characters.

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 Post subject: Re: Things You Liked Better In The 90s Anime
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:36 am 
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To preface this, I haven't completed the Infinity Arc of the manga or anything afterwards (unless Codename Sailor V counts as "afterwards", I've finished that). As such this can't be a fully fair comparison. (Likewise, I've only seen the Dark Kingdom Arc of Crystal.)

That said, I've researched enough to know that several of my favorite things in the anime never existed in the manga (or indeed, some weren't in any other version of the story at all):

- The focus on characters growing and overcoming their problems, redemption stories. My favorite is Nephrite's story, but there are many other great ones- the Sailor Animamates, Professor Tomoe, Saphir, Fiore, Nehellenia, even the phantom sisters- and, of course, Galaxia. Even Zoisite and Kunzite have a nice tragic finale, even if they didn't manage to 'snap out of it'. These sympathetic stories are, to me, the very core of what I love most about Sailor Moon. It's far from the only good thing, and the manga has plenty of stuff going on, but these things are the crown jewels of the story for me.

- Likewise, the particulars of Haruka and Michiru's story arc over the seasons (it doesn't sound like it goes this way in the manga, but I don't know, maybe they have an awesome story there too). I was really surprised how much I liked this turnout by the very end- so many things about S fit in hindsight with what they eventually did in Sailor Stars. Episode 198 is beautiful storytelling in my opinion. Major spoilers:
Spoiler: show
It was almost like seeing where some of the sympathetic, under-duress villains who go out with heroic redemptions get started- we see the whole gradual path to how they got into that mess from THEIR perspective. Did anyone else find those rainbow sparkles in their death scene reminded you of Nephrite?


- Certain unique character relationships, like Nephrite/Naru, Zoisite/Kunzite, Ami/Ryo, those fun little shippable moments of things like Ami/Makoto and Usagi/Rei (even Michiru seems to ship the, in Sailor Stars). Naru and Umino have a pretty great arc too. I also like Rei/Yuuichirou, though Yuuichirou sure is a total goofball.

- The sheer amount of emphasis on Naru and Umino, who may be my two biggest favorite characters. They were little more than extras originally!

- Rei's personality from the anime, of constantly playful-fighting with Usagi in an encouraging, tsundere kinda way. This version of Rei is so much fun and just so cool.

- The season 1 finale with the battles at D Point. Dramatic and unforgettable. Likewise, the fact that Usagi has to march on after what happens to Endymion. I realize the point is she had the spirits of her friends to help her, but in a certain sense she really had to press on alone, too. This is an incredibly strong and powerful moment for Usagi that everything else has built up to, far more so than the original battle where she leans on blind Mamoru so much.

- Spooky glasses face Professor Tomoe, who, when you stop and think about it, is actually a super nice boss even when possessed! I'd much rather work for him than like, Beryl.

- The realization in hindsight that Saphir never quite did any actual villainy. Sure, he made the dark henge statues for Esmeraude's operations, but that's engineering work. When was Saphir ever cruel, and when did he ever attack anybody in this version?

- Loads of funny episodes (the Rhett Butler episode springs to mind).

- The Makaiju arc (some of it's goofy but the whole thing is a lot of fun and a good bit of character growth. And who doesn't love Usagi and Mamoru babysitting?)

- Certain exclusive characters like Ryo Urawa, Yuuichirou, Thetis, Fiore...

- Aaaaaalll the little character moments. I consider very few of those 200 episodes truly pointless or 'filler' as they're often dismissed, because even when they're not advancing the main story, there are so many adorable little character moments EVERYWHERE, and in season 1 especially there is a gradual sense of growth to Usagi. (I couldn't possibly cut season 1 down to less than 20 'essentials', in good conscience, and I would wince even at that.) In contrast, the manga never slows down to breathe at all.

- Tuxedo Mask throwing roses and standing on ridiculous things when he shows up. I was shocked this wasn't in the manga!

- Supreme Thunder Dragon. Awesome. Honestly, I kinda like Makoto's greater emphasis on lightning attacks in general; the flower attacks were cool, but I'm happier leaving them to somebody like Zoisite.

- Speaking of which OH MY GOSH Zoisite. Anime Zoisite is fantastic. I love his style, I despise his actions, I laugh at him, I cry with him. Great, great character.

- Goofy phony(?) alter-egos like "Masato Sanjoin" and "Ginga TV" (at least, I don't think the Ginga TV schtick is in the manga?). And Esmeraude driving like 180 miles per hour out of random hatches around Tokyo.

- The vast majority of the music is WONDERFUL, for both image songs and Arisawa Takanori's background score. I listen to it over and over and over.

- I really like some of the monsters of the week, although they overdid it at times. Youma Boxsy is totally king of kings in my book.

I do like the manga, and there are elements of the manga I wish were in the anime (the Shitennou's backstory, the Shittenou's ghosts and Tuxedo Mask getting a new attack, the holy sword from Silver Millenium, Minako using a sword in general, Sailor Moon's mask from the early days, and Diana appearing in the Black Moon arc all come to mind; and there's more that I haven't read yet that sounds cool, like Cyborg Hotaru, Sailor Heavy Metal Papillon, Sailor Cosmos, and the Galaxy Cauldron). The character designs of the manga are great, and some of the core concepts for the story are there- but there are so many beautiful things the anime added.

The anime is far from flawless though. I especially could've done with better pacing on that darn Amazon Trio arc; that part had some good ideas but very hamfisted presentation.

I also agree that the outers should've appeared more in SuperS instead of just that one special about Haruka and Michiru (even though that was a pretty great little special). Chibi-usa and Pegasus' romance never quite worked for me (even though I'm completely onboard with the being-a-sapient-horse thing) because Helios is just way too secretive and demanding the whole season, that little twerp. I do like them and I can imagine them working it out, and they have a few cool moments, but dang was it frustrating after a while.

The Asteroid Senshi not appearing in the anime is 100% bogus and I am disappointed about that. :(

Basically, I think of the manga as an interesting seed, and the anime as the beautiful flower that grew from that seed (you would never have the flower without the seed). I love both, but I do love the anime more.


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