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 Post subject: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 3:46 pm 
Solaris Luna
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So, based on the discussion topic about whether or not Naoko's ruining Sailor Moon, I thought I'd create a separate topic to discuss who is responsible for Sailor Moon's creation and success: Naoko? Toei? Both? Someone else? I've listed everything that I can think of off the top of my head re: who's responsible for what element of the series below, but it's possible (if not likely) that I've forgotten stuff or that some of my information is incorrect, so if anyone has anything to add or correct, please let me know!

= = = = = = = = = =

- Naoko has the original idea, inspired by her love of sentai/tokusatsu/maho shoujo, to do a manga story about a magical girl. This initial kernel of an idea is what sets everything in motion.

- Osabu suggests that the superhero should be a schoolgirl in a sailor uniform, thus making him responsible for the "Sailor" motif. Without him, Naoko would have created a completely different schoolgirl.

- Naoko, inspired by the volleyball drama "The Sign is V," gives her manga concept the name "Codename wa Sailor V." Without that drama (and Naoko's being a fan of it), the manga would have had a different name potentially and Minako might not have become a volleyball player.

- Naoko seems to have taken lots of inspiration from the recent/contemporary tokusatsu series "Bishojo Kamen Poitrine." Without the existence of that series, the "Sailor V" concept might have turned out differently. And so we can see, yet again, how Naoko's love of pop culture played a role in shaping he series. Her love of high fashion also shapes the series, as does her background in the sciences, particularly her love for gemology/geology and astronomy. Her love of Greco-Roman mythology, European folklore, and astrology also heavily shape the series. Without Naoko's various interests, most of the most basic motifs/elements of "Sailor Moon" would not have existed.

- In August 1991, the Sailor V vs Pandora one-shot story is published in Run-Run. At some point around this time (it's unclear when), Toei gets involved, looking to turn the concept into a new anime series. Eventually the series goes from being centered around one magical girl to a team of five magical girls. Who exactly is responsible for this decision is unclear. Naoko seems to take credit in various interviews, but I've seen other people suggest it was Toei's or possibly Osabu's idea.

- As Naoko slowly turns "Codename wa Sailor V" into "Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon," editors at Nakayoshi nix her idea of a silver-haired main character, prompting her to make Sailor Moon a blonde. Without those editors, we would have had a blonde Usagi who turned into a silver-haired Sailor Moon.

- At some point, Osabu nixes Naoko's idea for one of the Sailors (Mercury) to be a cyborg. However, she presumably later recycles this idea in her concept for Hotaru.

- Naoko bases Usagi's iconic odango hairstyle on one she used to have. Without Naoko, Usagi wouldn't have had her iconic appearance.

- Naoko bases Rei's being a shrine maiden on her own past part-time job as a miko. Without Naoko, Rei as we know her would have not existed.

- Naoko also claims complete responsibility for Tuxedo Mask, "Moon Prism Power Make Up!" (and presumably all the other transformation and attack cries), and Sailor Moon's introduction speech. Sailor Mercury's and Sailor Mars's introduction speeches later on evidently came from a magazine contest.

- As we know from the artbooks, Naoko created a few different looks for the Sailors: the initial, incredibly detailed "prototype" designs, a different set of more uniform and slightly less detailed designs, and, of course, the designs ultimately used for the initial run of the manga. Did Naoko decide on what designs to use on her own, or would she have used one of her earlier concepts had not Toei or Nakayoshi intervened?

- The anime begins airing but is not a major success re: toy sales. Bandai needs a successful toy to market or the anime will be canceled, prompting Naoko to invent the Moon Stick. Without Bandai, Sailor Moon might never have gotten a weapon.

- Naoko slightly modifies the design of a dress in a contemporary Christian Dior collection for Princess Serenity. Without Dior, who knows what the Moon Princess would be wearing?

- Naoko's initial idea for the Dark Kingdom arc to end with everyone dying gets nixed by Osabu. The anime, however, uses the idea, much to Naoko's annoyance.

- Naoko's initial idea to end the series after that first arc is nixed by Osabu and Toei, who want the now-successful series to continue. Without them, Sailor Moon would have been only one arc.

- Osabu suggests the second arc revolve around Sailor Moon's daughter. Without him, Chibiusa would not have existed.

- Naoko borrows inspiration from the fashion world once again. Koan's look comes from a Thierry Mugler design, Calaveras's from a Christian LaCroix, and Black Lady's from a YSL perfume ad. Even Pluto seems to have been somewhat inspired by supermodel Naomi Campbell, as evidenced by an artbook illustration of Pluto the replicates a Naomi Campbell ad for Chanel, as well as Pluto's dark skin and dream of being a fashion designer (at least according to her character profile; in series Setsuna goes from physics grad student to school nurse.) Without those aforementioned designers/models, who knows how those characters would have looked?

- Naoko's love of Takarazuka inspires the characters of Uranus and Neptune. Without Naoko's love of the genre, one of anime and manga's most famous same-sex couple might not have existed!

- Following the success of the R movie, Toei asks Naoko to write a story to serve as the basis for the S movie. Without the anime, "The Lover of Snow Princess Kaguya" would not have been written.

- For the last arc, Naoko creates three short-haired new Sailors. Bandai tells her short-haired dolls don't sell as well as long-haired ones, prompting her to attach lengthy ponytails to each of the Starlights. Without Bandai, Seiya and company would have had short hair.

= = = = = = = = = = =

Looking at the above, it seems clear to me that "Sailor Moon" was a mutual/collaborative effort between Naoko, Osabu, and Toei. While I'd say Naoko is responsible for the bulk of the series, without Toei there wouldn't have been much of a series to begin with, and without Osabu the series would have lacked one of its most fundamental conceits (that of the "Sailors") and one of its most popular characters (Chibiusa, at least as far as Japanese audiences are concerned). I feel like Dior should also get a special mention for giving us Princess Serenity's iconic dress :lol:

In conclusion... Sailor Moon's creation and success is probably 60% Naoko, 30% Toei, and 10% Osabu/the editors at Nakayoshi. While the manga (especially the four arcs following the Dark Kingdom story) would not have existed without the anime, the anime would not have existed or been as successful as it was without Naoko's story ideas/characters/design choices/influences.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:04 pm 
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It really depends...

Based on who is responsible for the creation of SM, then definitely Naoko, because she is the original creator of SM afterall, she was the one who originally created the manga that started everything for SM, and SM was originally HER own idea, and the only reason Toei was able to make an anime adaptation of SM in the first place is because Naoko gave Toei permission to do so. So Naoko should be credited as the original creator of SM and planting the very original seeds for this franchise to grow, everything started with Naoko's own idea and creation.

But in terms of who is responsible for popularizing the SM franchise, then I think that's Toei because as much as I love the manga, the classic 90s anime produced by Toei was what really popularized SM on a global scale, the 90s anime became much more popular globally than the manga ever did, and I think the 90s anime is mainly the reason why the SM franchise has become so huge as it is now, and not to mention the 90s anime is also largely responsible for creating this whole phenomenon for anime fascination all around the world during the 90s and early 2000s. I highly doubt animes would be nearly as huge and popular worldwide as it is now if it weren't for SM's 90s anime produced by Toei.
So yes, Toei should be credited for popularizing SM in Japan and worldwide.

Bottom line is, Naoko is responsible and should be credited for creating SM in the first place. But Toei (or rather the people working at Toei who were responsible for creating the 90s anime) should be credited for popularizing SM.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:25 pm 
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
- Naoko seems to have taken lots of inspiration from the recent/contemporary tokusatsu series "Bishojo Kamen Poitrine." Without the existence of that series, the "Sailor V" concept might have turned out differently.


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FOR ACKNOWLEDGING THIS FACT.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Trivia: Patrine (Poitrine) and Sailor Moon's first season were broadcasted in the same brazilian channel, with the same voice actress portraying both characters.
Weirdly, Patrine managed to provide good ratings to the TV station in 1993, while Sailor Moon flopped in 1996.
The director in charge of the programming of the now-defunct TV station credits this to the fact that a lot of Tokusatsu shows previously shown had already opened the way to a more girl-oriented series like Patrine.
While Sailor Moon premiered when group fighting anime was still starting its craze on brazilian TV with Saint Seiya. So it was still too early for a anime featuring a group of fighting girls to be succesful.


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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:34 pm 
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Let's also not forget that even the opening theme "Moonlight Densetsu" can be traced back to two different earlier songs.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:07 pm 
Solaris Luna
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I have to say both are equally responsible for Sailor Moon. Since Naoko is responsible for the ideas/concepts of the story. Toei 's responsible for making Sailor Moon popular through the anime.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:27 pm 
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On the subject of theme songs, Naoko also wrote some of the songs like Tuxedo Mirage. As for who's responsible, I agree Naoko is responsible for the story and characters with input from Osabu. But I think Toei is also responsible for popularizing the series. The manga may have become popular in Japan without Toei, but Sailor Moon might not have become such a worldwide hit without the 90s anime, which is still the most famous version of the story.


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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:57 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Just wanted to add a couple of things I just remembered:

- Naoko has said before that when she was writing dialog, especially for Usagi, she would think about the character's voice actor and write with their voice in mind, so that's another example of the anime influencing the manga.

- According to Osabu, while she was writing the Stars arc, Naoko was basically running on fumes and borrowed extensively from song lyrics, so that's another example of Naoko's work being heavily influenced by popular culture.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 12:32 am 
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
- According to Osabu, while she was writing the Stars arc, Naoko was basically running on fumes and borrowed extensively from song lyrics, so that's another example of Naoko's work being heavily influenced by popular culture.


So that's why the metal sailors were rock n' roll inspired.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 2:06 am 
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The whole series was a collaborative effort between Naoko, Toei, Osabu, and Bandai. It isn't any one person's vision. Naoko just created a one-shot about a teenage superhero in a sailor suit (which was Osabu's idea). Toei asked her to create a series about a Super Sentai-esque team when they bought the anime rights to make an OVA. Naoko drew a monthly manga with a basic story, and Toei fleshed it out into the anime franchise we all know and love. It's one of the reasons I see the original anime as the "main" piece of the franchise instead of the manga, since that really did just act as a blueprint.

It's really a similar situation as Revolutionary Girl Utena, which was a collaborative effort between Chiho Saito (who mostly worked on the manga) and Kunihiko Ikuhara (who mostly worked on the anime).


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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 6:07 am 
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PurpleWarrior13 wrote:
The whole series was a collaborative effort between Naoko, Toei, Osabu, and Bandai. It isn't any one person's vision.


This is both correct and incorrect at the same time. Yes, the whole thing was very collaborative -- but it wasn't structured the way Utena was, as you describe later on. The manga is Takeuchi's vision upon Toei's urging (and Osabu as her editor obviously had input, as does any manga editor). Obviously the 90s anime is more of Toei's vision.

Quote:
Naoko drew a monthly manga with a basic story, and Toei fleshed it out into the anime franchise we all know and love.


Implying the manga has a "basic story" and the 90s anime DOESN'T have a "basic story" is intellectually flaccid, particularly because the story of the 90s anime comes directly from the manga. You said it was "fleshed out" -- I say it was padded with filler as they waited for Takeuchi to finish.

Quote:
It's one of the reasons I see the original anime as the "main" piece of the franchise instead of the manga, since that really did just act as a blueprint.


If the manga acts as the blueprint for the 90s anime, shouldn't that make it more of the "main" piece of the franchise? The blueprint is more important because it's the foundation.

Of course I don't think there is one "main" piece of the franchise -- the 90s anime and the manga are so intertwined, it's hard to say for sure (and then you have the musicals, which included La Soldier, which was then used in R...as well as the Sera Myu girls singing the theme song for the show itself during S and SuperS). But I do think it's intellectually dishonest to say that one was more of a "main piece" than the other, especially if that main piece is the 90s anime.

Quote:
It's really a similar situation as Revolutionary Girl Utena, which was a collaborative effort between Chiho Saito (who mostly worked on the manga) and Kunihiko Ikuhara (who mostly worked on the anime).


It's really not similar at all. The only similarity is that you have a manga and an anime that end up telling different plots, but in Utena's case, the main piece of the franchise is most certainly the anime because Utena itself is mostly attributed to Ikuhara (he even came up with the concept for the story during his initial work on the first draft/discarded version of the SuperS movie).

Utena was conceived by a group of people who came together and formed the production committee Be-Papas. Sailor Moon was not formed by a similar committee/group; rather, it was Takeuchi (and her editor Osabu -- by the way, EVERY MANGAKA HAS AN EDITOR so this isn't special or anything like that) and the production team at Toei, who were not partnered in the same way that Be-Papas was structured for Utena.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Ultimately, regardless of our debates. Copyright law officially recognizes Naoko as the original creator of Sailor Moon. Anytime the series is mentioned in any capacity, Naoko is the one named as the original creator and not Toei.

However, I think when fans try to express the collaborative nature of Sailor Moon, what they're trying to articulate is that there's not one, pure vision of Sailor Moon. Fans like to pretend that their version of Sailor Moon is the 'definitive' one and try to discredit other versions, but from Day 1 Sailor Moon was envisioned as a media-mix franchise and can't be reduced to one part.

If anything, this false idea that poor Naoko created the manga and Toei just came in and butchered it as the '90s anime needs to be debunked because the whole series was planned as a team to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 1:53 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Exactly. We all have our own personal opinions about what version is better, but neither the manga nor the 90s anime can truly claim it's the "original" or "definitive" or "most authentic" or whatever version of Sailor Moon, because the series wasn't created in the traditional source material first, adaptation afterward model. They were created and developed simultaneously and influenced each other. You can't really separate one from the other.

I don't think even Naoko herself would say Toei "butchered" her vision, though some fans love to claim she hates the original anime. From what I've read of her comments on the series, she was more surprised by certain changes (like with the Starlights) or disappointed that some things from the manga didn't make it into the anime because she wanted to see them animated. She never expresses anything like anger or hatred when talking about the 90s anime, so I'm sure she doesn't regard it as a denigration of her masterpiece, but probably cherishes it as a special version of the story she helped create.

There's room for both versions to exist and be loved. 90s anime fans need to stop acting like the manga was a disaster that the anime so graciously managed to salvage and turn into a success, and manga fans need to stop acting like the 90s anime butchered Naoko's sacred vision. Both versions have their own strengths and weaknesses.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 7:00 pm 
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I really want to know when the change from Sailor V to Sailor Moon happened and who was behind it. That's one of the most muddled parts in the series' history, it seems.

Seira Hazuki wrote:
If anything, this false idea that poor Naoko created the manga and Toei just came in and butchered it as the '90s anime needs to be debunked because the whole series was planned as a team to begin with.


Stop it, I'm getting flashbacks to early 2000s websites. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:21 pm 
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I think my main point was that the relationship between Naoko and Toei was much different than most mangaka/anime studio relationships. Usually, the manga comes first as an independent work, and the anime is later adapted, with varying degrees of faithfulness. In Sailor Moon's case, an anime was planned from the beginning, and Takeuchi drew the manga with this in mind and with the concepts that Toei wanted. The characters are hers, the story is hers, and certainly the artwork is hers, but Toei took that work and made a more pragmatic adaptation of this. That doesn't necessarily make it "better," but it makes it very different than a typical manga-anime adaptation.

The anime is severely flawed IMO, especially the last two seasons, but I do think it had better fleshed out characters and relationships, especially with the villains. Beryl's Four Kings especially had little-to-no character personalities in the original manga. It does get a lot better though over time. The manga's version of the Dream arc is far superior IMO.

I see Sailor Moon Crystal as more of the direct translation of Takeuchi's vision.


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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 8:39 pm 
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The Four Kings in the manga didn't have the most complex personalities, but at least they had a backstory. Their anime counterparts didn't have much more personality. Nephrite's the only one who had any real character arc. Beryl likewise had a backstory and was a lot more complex in the manga, whereas in the anime, she's just a generic villain with no real depth. Anime fans like to praise the anime for giving the villains all this extra character development, but IMO that's really only true for the Black Moon Clan and the Sailor Animamates they bothered to include. The other villains all got basically the same amount of character development as they did in the manga.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:21 pm 
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You FOOLS!

I'm responsible for Sailor Moon, HA HA!!

Its always the last person you least suspect!!!

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And that's a double negative, there.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:42 pm 
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^ oh then can you make a sailor V movie already and Uranus/Neptune spin off
and an anime version of Another Story? P-:

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:44 pm 
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Prince Rose wrote:
oh then can you make a sailor V movie already and Uranus/Neptune spin off
and an anime version of Another Story? P-:

I think he could, but won't, since he hates the distributors/fandom. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:46 pm 
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Prince Rose wrote:
^ oh then can you make a sailor V movie already and Uranus/Neptune spin off
and an anime version of Another Story? P-:


(In a very Whiny Voice) I'll do it tomorrow. :x

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 10:49 pm 
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SailorWelshy wrote:
Prince Rose wrote:
^ oh then can you make a sailor V movie already and Uranus/Neptune spin off
and an anime version of Another Story? P-:


(In a very Whiny Voice) I'll do it tomorrow. :x

So I was wrong. lol

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:44 am 
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Prince Rose wrote:
^ oh then can you make a sailor V movie already and Uranus/Neptune spin off
and an anime version of Another Story? P-:


And a video game remake of Kurukkurin (the S heart puzzle game) and a much better version of La Luna Splende? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:48 am 
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NJ_ wrote:
Prince Rose wrote:
^ oh then can you make a sailor V movie already and Uranus/Neptune spin off
and an anime version of Another Story? P-:


And a video game remake of Kurukkurin (the S heart puzzle game) and a much better version of La Luna Splende? :P


And release Toonmaker :usagi: to the public in HD. P-:

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:51 am 
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rgveda99 wrote:
NJ_ wrote:
Prince Rose wrote:
^ oh then can you make a sailor V movie already and Uranus/Neptune spin off
and an anime version of Another Story? P-:


And a video game remake of Kurukkurin (the S heart puzzle game) and a much better version of La Luna Splende? :P


And release Toonmaker :usagi: to the public in HD. P-:


HD? Pfftt, that needs to be in 4K. :whee:

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:51 am 
Planeta
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Ugh, everybody wants a piece of Welshy.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:56 am 
Stella Nova
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NJ_ wrote:
HD? Pfftt, that needs to be in 4K. :whee:


With money coming out of those menstrual pads and Angelbaby promoting the :usagi: selfie stick why not do a remake movie of it. :eyebrows:

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:59 am 
Planeta
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No wonder Naoko's husband was laughing at me when I brought the rights......I thought he was just being colourful.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:09 am 
Systema Solare
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Prince Rose wrote:
^ oh then can you make a sailor V movie already and Uranus/Neptune spin off
and an anime version of Another Story? P-:


you know as long as Toei doesn't make it id love a Sailor V anime :tongue:

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 5:11 am 
Stella
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
The Four Kings in the manga didn't have the most complex personalities, but at least they had a backstory. Their anime counterparts didn't have much more personality. Nephrite's the only one who had any real character arc. Beryl likewise had a backstory and was a lot more complex in the manga, whereas in the anime, she's just a generic villain with no real depth. Anime fans like to praise the anime for giving the villains all this extra character development, but IMO that's really only true for the Black Moon Clan and the Sailor Animamates they bothered to include. The other villains all got basically the same amount of character development as they did in the manga.

There is nothing saying that the back stories for the Shitennou and Beryl do not also apply to the 90s anime. The Shitennou's backstories were subtly implied and Beryl was stated outright to have been a person from Earth who loved Endymion and who sold her soul to Queen Metalia in order to get him and get revenge on the Moon Princess. I would also add that Zoisite and Kunzite's relationship and personalities I thought were an improvement over the manga.

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 Post subject: Re: Naoko vs Toei: Who is Responsible for Sailor Moon?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 5:21 am 
Systema Solare
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^^^actually i think the Shittenou (not counting Jadeite) were better in the 90s anime but thats just me

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