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 Post subject: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:56 am 
Luna Nova
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Okay so I'm watching the new Viz dub of Sailor Moon S... And I'm just so confused with so may things. (Maybe I'm just not aware of timelines enough.. ) Also I have seen SuperS and Stars but I'm more directing it to this particular season. Anyway!
Why was Chibi-Usa sent back to this particular time, (let's disregard R for now) and more importantly why didn't Neo Queen Serenity be all like. Okay so just be aware all this stuff happens, cause you know. I'm Sailor Moon and all so I know what happens. Not only that, if she didn't know, wouldn't this completely adjust the whole future timeline? And not only that, the possibility of Chibi-Usa not existing or being different due to different timelines?? Has this been addressed and I'm just not aware of it? :? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:51 am 
Stella
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In my opinion I don't think that the timeline was changed. I think that Chibiusa going back in time happened in all timelines. Plus there is a strong theme in the series of not changing the future and this was a big theme in Sailor Moon Another Story even though that game wasn't canon it fits the general sentiment. Also no Chibiusa did not write herself out of existence the fact that she continues to appear is proof of this and Crystal Tokyo is confirmed as their future. So no I don't think there are multiple timelines.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:07 am 
Usagi's Rose
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I believe there are multiple timelines
The destroyed future
The restored future caused by chibiusa going to the past and the senshi defeating Wiseman
When sm became super sailor moon it altered chibiusa by adding those wings in her hair implying a change occurred in the future
Anytime chibiusa disappeared during nehelenia arc that means a future without her is possible yet prevented

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:43 am 
Stella
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Prince Rose wrote:
I believe there are multiple timelines
The destroyed future
The restored future caused by chibiusa going to the past and the senshi defeating Wiseman
When sm became super sailor moon it altered chibiusa by adding those wings in her hair implying a change occurred in the future
Anytime chibiusa disappeared during nehelenia arc that means a future without her is possible yet prevented

I think that Sailor Chibi Moon getting those wings in her hair probably also happened in all timelines as well plus the Nehellenia stuff. Based on what I have seen there is one timeline all though many villains seek to change the future and the biggest goal of the Senshi is making their pleasant future happening. One proof I tend to think that there is one timeline is in the manga. After the Senshi are all revived in the Galaxy Cauldron Chibiusa appears to Usagi and they have to part as Chibiusa is going back to the future but tells her don't worry she will see her soon referring to Usagi's future pregnancy with Chibiusa. Now Chibiusa says she will see her soon as in the same Chibiusa she is talking to now. Not another Chibiusa from another timeline but that is just my opinion.

I do think that Parallel Sailor Moon represents an alternate future. What I think that future would have happened if Usagi chose to create a new future for her and her friends instead of living as they were as she chose in the canon manga story.

The only thing in the manga I think might be new to this timeline is the whole Sailor Cosmos stuff. That seems like it for the first time happened in our timeline. However I suppose it could be argued that it happened in our timeline as well. Maybe after all that Sailor Cosmos went through in her depression she forgot those words of Eternal Sailor Moon telling her to carry on and went back as she did in all other timelines to try to destroy the cauldron only to be convinced by her past self to carry on.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:04 pm 
Luna
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There is no definitive answer, however I'm willing to throw in my two cents. I'm voting for the singular timeline. I believe NQS may have sent back Chibiusa to times of peril on purpose, to train her through times of really difficult battle. As well as everything turned out, I don't believe NQS should have had any reservations, as Sailor Moon definitely took care of saving the day, so what's the reall damage that could have been done? In fact, many times we see Chibiusa being used as incentive for Sailor Moon to boss up and defeat whoever is causing all of the calamity of that particular arc/season. So NQS knew that things work out, possibly for the better, with Chibiusa in these times in the past.

What makes me question the time continuity most is the whole Sailor Pluto thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:19 am 
Luna
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There isn't one timeline. The future can change. That's the entire point of the second story arc in almost all of the versions.

Not gonna get into it as I've already beaten this topic to death before, but having only one timeline in Sailor Moon really causes a lot of problems, like you yourself pointed out. I do need to respond to this, though:

MariaTenebre wrote:
In my opinion I don't think that the timeline was changed. I think that Chibiusa going back in time happened in all timelines. Plus there is a strong theme in the series of not changing the future


If anything, one of Sailor Moon's themes is changing the future for the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:52 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Naoko is a chemist and not a physicist. I don't think she intended time travel in her story to be seen as hard science fiction or something she spent much deep thought in. It's just a cool gimmick to expand the story and mythos of the series. This isn't like Steins Gate or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:57 am 
Stella
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John wrote:
There isn't one timeline. The future can change. That's the entire point of the second story arc in almost all of the versions.

Not gonna get into it as I've already beaten this topic to death before, but having only one timeline in Sailor Moon really causes a lot of problems, like you yourself pointed out. I do need to respond to this, though:

MariaTenebre wrote:
In my opinion I don't think that the timeline was changed. I think that Chibiusa going back in time happened in all timelines. Plus there is a strong theme in the series of not changing the future


If anything, one of Sailor Moon's themes is changing the future for the better.

Actually the entire point of the R series was to help bring about the nice future they had in Crystal Tokyo and I have all ready mentioned before reasons why there is one timeline. The proof that there is one timeline as the future of Crystal Tokyo is still portrayed as the default future for them. Chibiusa is not just Chibiusa from another timeline but the only Chibiusa. Besides at the end of the Stars manga Chibiusa tells Usagi that she will see her again soon before departing for the future. She will see her as in the same Chibiusa she is talking too not another Chibiusa from another timeline. Plus if there were multiple timelines then the original Chibiusa would have no fear of disappearing if this new timeline's Usagi and Mamoru didn't get together because the ones from her timeline all ready did. However she does have to fear this and does disappear when Mamoru is killed proving that Chibiusa's future in R is the same future for the Senshi in this timeline too.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:48 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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The problem with time travel is it's a tricky devil. There's a common misconception in following events and tangents in time travel; what everyone needs to remember is that time is linear, time travel in the third person - the person who is traveling through time - is also linear in that the person perceives and reacts to events as they occur to them, but time travel in general is non-linear. You can experience the present for an hour, travel to the future for another hour, head to the past for another hour, and most importantly return to the exact point you left originally.

In terms of 90s R I don't quite understand how Crystal Tokyo was restored - as far as I know it was never really addressed, which is why I think there is at least the possibility of a genuine tangent in the timeline at the end of the arc. Up to that point however there is a definite, consistent timeline that is at least mostly resolved. Getting back to the original topic though; it's established that Chibiusa returns to the time of S to do training, why she returns then is unclear however I personally posit the theory that the reason is to gain real world experience with actual monsters. This is based on the fact that Chibiusa appears directly after Kaolinite's supposed death; I think this is deliberate, maybe because Kaolinite was too powerful for Chibiusa to handle, but really I'm basing that on nothing more than timing, it could simply be a coincidence. For the other question in order for the timeline to change we first need to prove that the original timeline was different to the resulting timeline at the end of the arc, since as far as I know no solid evidence exists of that it's unreasonable to simply assume that the possibility exists if the basis of the assumption is just as unproven. My theory is that with a lack of evidence to the contrary it's reasonable to believe that the timeline has remained constant since with the exception of Chibiusa not returning to the 30th century everything is again mostly resolved. Until Chibiusa either dies or encounters an event which physically stops her from returning to any point in time between the point she traveled back in time to the relatively near-future it is not reasonable to suggest that she has altered the future due to her absence.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:17 pm 
Luna
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Neon Genesis wrote:
Naoko is a chemist and not a physicist. I don't think she intended time travel in her story to be seen as hard science fiction or something she spent much deep thought in. It's just a cool gimmick to expand the story and mythos of the series. This isn't like Steins Gate or something.


Ultimately, yes -- this is the correct way to think about this issue. The time traveling in Sailor Moon is just dressing to make the story more interesting. Even though certain plots are centered on time travel, it is, like you said, just a gimmick. I fully understand that we really shouldn't waste our time debating this issue...

...but I'm going to double down on my position anyway, lol.

chrissifniotis wrote:
For the other question in order for the timeline to change we first need to prove that the original timeline was different to the resulting timeline at the end of the arc, since as far as I know no solid evidence exists of that it's unreasonable to simply assume that the possibility exists if the basis of the assumption is just as unproven. My theory is that with a lack of evidence to the contrary it's reasonable to believe that the timeline has remained constant since with the exception of Chibiusa not returning to the 30th century everything is again mostly resolved. Until Chibiusa either dies or encounters an event which physically stops her from returning to any point in time between the point she traveled back in time to the relatively near-future it is not reasonable to suggest that she has altered the future due to her absence.


There are some things that are different. Most of these things can be chalked up to Takeuchi not planning in advance, but we're looking at in-universe story elements here, not out-of-universe factors like the author's way of thinking etc.

LIST OF THINGS THAT POINT TO MULTIPLE TIMELINES IN SAILOR MOON
    In the manga: Chibi Usa takes the Silver Crystal (named and described as such) from her mother's room in Crystal Tokyo, but in the present timeline, the Silver Crystal transforms into the Silver Moon Crystal. If it were one timeline, the Silver Crystal that Chibi Usa saw in the future would have been the Silver Moon Crystal.

    In the manga: Neo-Queen Serenity is hesitant about meeting present-day Sailor Moon face-to-face because she is worried it might destroy her/alter history, but she does it anyway. If there is only one timeline, then Neo-Queen Serenity already went to the past as Sailor Moon and already met NQS face-to-face, so she wouldn't be having the same exact doubts and concerns.

    In the 90s anime: the Inners are in their normal forms when we see them in Crystal Tokyo, but in the present timeline, they upgrade to their "Super" forms and should retain this form in the future. There are fan theories as to why this change occurs but it is easier and simpler and more graceful to accept multiple timelines instead of coming up with random, baseless fan theories. (Furthermore, they are upgraded to their "Eternal" form in the manga.)

    In any version of Sailor Moon, the concept of there being only one timeline in Sailor Moon just doesn't add up when it comes to the Black Moon. If Sailor Moon and co. were aware of the Black Moon from the start, then they would have been expecting them in Crystal Tokyo and would also have been more prepared for them.

    Chibi Chibi's existence proves multiple timelines. Cosmos states that her past self (Eternal Sailor Moon) was very lonely at this point in hr life (the Stars arc) and didn't have anyone to talk to, so she went back in time and disguised herself as Chibi Chibi in order to be there for her past self in an ultimate attempt to persuade Usagi's decision regarding the Galaxy Cauldron. Ultimately Usagi makes the same decision that Cosmos made when she was Eternal Sailor Moon, which surprises Chibi Chibi/Cosmos and inspires her to go back to the future to continue fighting. If this were one timeline, she wouldn't have been surprised by Usagi's decision, nor would she have gone back in time in an attempt to change the future if she were already visited by her own Chibi Chibi in her own past because she would've known how it would have turned out. But Chibi Chibi flat out states that when she was Eternal Sailor Moon, SHE HAD NOBODY, meaning she was not visited by a Chibi Chibi in her past. Multiple timelines.

Ultimately, though, like Black Scythe wrote in the first post of this thread...things just don't add up if it's one timeline. If you had knowledge of a future attack, you wouldn't just let it happen. The royalty of Crystal Tokyo seemed to have no foreknowledge of the Black Moon family -- otherwise they would have prevented their invasion.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:11 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Yeah I get what your saying John, I was specifically referring to S rather than the entire story. There absolutely are multiple timelines but as far as I can work out not within Sailor Moon S.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon timeline?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:21 pm 
Luna
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Sorry, my mistake!

Yeah, there really isn't much time travel in S despite Chibi Usa coming back during that season, so when it comes to S, we really just have to use logic which leads us to multiple timelines.

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