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 Post subject: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:19 pm 
Solaris Luna
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First, a timeline:

1997
- After a hiatus of nearly two years, DiC finally dubs the remaining 17 so-called "lost" episodes of R, which begin airing in September.

- At some point this year, Irwin releases their line of Sailor Moon Adventure Figures, consisting of Super Sailor Moon, Tuxedo Mask, Sailor Mini Moon (though labeled "Rini," as with her doll counterparts), Sailor Uranus, Sailor Neptune, and Sailor Pluto. The figures come with a "Collectafile," a small booklet that provides brief profiles for all the characters. The Collectafile gives Uranus's civilian name as Corinn, Neptune's as Nerissa, and Pluto's as Celia. This indicates that at this point DiC was planning to dub S.

- For unknown reasons(?), DiC does not end up acquiring the rights to S/the rest of the series.

2000
- Throughout the year, Pioneer releases its dub of the three movies ("The Promise of the Rose" on February 8, "Hearts in Ice" on May 23, and "Black Dream Hole" on August 15). Dubbing was presumably recorded in 1999.

- Beginning in June, episodes of S, dubbed by Cloverway, begin airing. These episodes give Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto's civilian names as Amara, Michelle, and Trista respectively.



So. These are my questions:

1. What are the Outers' civilian names in the movie dubs? That is to say, since their names are never actually given in either "Hearts in Ice" or "Black Dream Hole," what names do you think were being used internally at that time? Do you think Pioneer/Optimum was still using Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia? Do you think they'd already come up with Amara, Michelle, and Trista? Or do you think they'd decided not to use Corinn, etc, but had yet to come up with replacements?

2. Why exactly were their names changed anyway? It seems a little weird that they'd change them after the original choices had been used for official merchandise. Perhaps since they were only used (as far as I know) for that one line of toys and a few years had passed by since they came out, the dub producers had forgotten about them or assumed fans who had purchased those figures had?

3. Which set of names do you prefer? Are you glad they changed them or do you wish they had stuck with Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?

4. Why exactly did DiC not end up dubbing S (along with SuperS and the movies)? Does anyone know if there's an official explanation? If not, what do you think happened?

5. When exactly were the movies dubbed (I'm guessing some point in 1999?) and when did the dubbing for S start? Some time must have passed for a new company to step in to oversee the dubbing, as well as for five of the characters (Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mini-Moon, and Pluto) to need to be recast.

6. Since the movies had edited dubs that used the DiC BGM, despite their dubbing not being overseen by DiC, it stands to reason that music was still available for use. So why do you think CWi never used that music for their (edited for TV) dub? Was it merely due to time constraints/it being more convenient to simply use the original music, or were there other reasons?

7. If we can talk about the "Black Dream Hole" and SuperS dubs for a second: In the movie, they kept "Mars Flame Sniper" as is and had Serena and Rini's transformation phrase be "Super Moon Crisis Power." So why did CWi not use those phrases for the SuperS dub? I don't see how "shooter" is more acceptable than "sniper" so that change just seems arbitrary, and "Super Moon Crisis Power" is far better than "Moon Cosmic Dream Action" which is just a bizarre mess to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:19 pm 
Luna Nova
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I've always wondered why DiC didn't dub S and have never gotten a straight answer. We know they lost the rights but how/why? Like you said, they seemed ready to dub S and allegedly had some new BGMs ready to go as well.

Amara > Corinn. I think they're both awful to be honest, but I prefer Amara. I would've named her Alex.
Michelle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nerissa. It's the first English name that comes to mind when you read Michiru.
Trista > Celia. Celia makes her sound like a little old lady. I would've named her Celine or Samantha.

Also, weren't they supposedly gonna change Hotaru for Jenny? And did Jennifer Gould voice Hotaru, Mistress 9 AND Sailor Saturn? If so, she deserves some kind of award.

I read that CWi changed "sniper" to "shooter" because it would be easier for kids to understand. Don't know if that's an official reason or just a fan rumour. Changing "Super Moon Crisis Power" to "Moon Cosmic Dream Action" is probably the worst name change in the entire original dub. Who knows why they changed those phrases, maybe CWi didn't bother watching the dubbed movies?

I would also like to know how long it took between dubbing the movies and S since most of the cast left for various reasons. We know Teri Hawkes got pregnant and Stephanie Morganstern wasn't notified by her agent that they were dubbing S. Does anyone know why Karen Bernstein and Tracey Hoyt didn't come back? I didn't miss Tracey, but I definitely missed Karen.


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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:29 pm 
Luna Nova
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tux67 wrote:
I've always wondered why DiC didn't dub S and have never gotten a straight answer. We know they lost the rights but how/why? Like you said, they seemed ready to dub S and allegedly had some new BGMs ready to go as well.


Technicially they still had the rights for the first two seasons when they put them out on DVDs.

tux67 wrote:
I would also like to know how long it took between dubbing the movies and S since most of the cast left for various reasons. We know Teri Hawkes got pregnant and Stephanie Morganstern wasn't notified by her agent that they were dubbing S. Does anyone know why Karen Bernstein and Tracey Hoyt didn't come back? I didn't miss Tracey, but I definitely missed Karen.

I think these are the official reasons the voice actors left: http://www.saveoursailors.org/optletter.html


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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:40 pm 
Systema Solare
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
5. When exactly were the movies dubbed (I'm guessing some point in 1999?)


https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/1 ... ews-briefs

It was definitely 1999, Pioneer announced them that Spring and before releasing the dub, released subbed VHS tapes of all 3 movies that August.

http://www.saveoursailors.org/pioneerad.html
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycl ... hp?id=1834
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycl ... p?id=14027
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycl ... p?id=14026
https://www.animenostalgiabomb.com/yosh ... uary-2000/

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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:17 pm 
Solaris Luna
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MementoNepenthe wrote:
This indicates that at this point DiC was planning to dub S.


Not necessarily. Irwin released toys of many Dragon Ball Z characters years before FUNI was planning on dubbing the rest of the series. You could argue the fact they produced dolls of Uranus, Neptune, Kaolinite, and Prof. Tomoe was because they were technically in the DIC dub. A user on flickr who owns a Sailor Saturn prototype doll mentioned Irwin couldn't secure the rights to release the character (though a mini-figure was released).

Quote:
For unknown reasons(?), DiC does not end up acquiring the rights to S/the rest of the series.


I've always wondered about this. Given the success of the series by the time they finished dubbing R, I would've thought they'd jump at the chance to dub the rest of it. I thought maybe they severed ties with Toei, but they got the rights to Saint Seiya (another Toei property) a few years later.

Quote:
1. What are the Outers' civilian names in the movie dubs? That is to say, since their names are never actually given in either "Hearts in Ice" or "Black Dream Hole," what names do you think were being used internally at that time? Do you think Pioneer/Optimum was still using Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia? Do you think they'd already come up with Amara, Michelle, and Trista? Or do you think they'd decided not to use Corinn, etc, but had yet to come up with replacements?


They didn't have any in the civilian names in the dub, as far as we know. The Pioneer DVDs have character bios for everyone, but the Outers specifically do not have English civilian names given. You could argue the kept their original names.

I've always wondered why they dubbed the S and SS movies before there were plans to dub those seasons. It was surreal to me as a kid watching the S movie without any insight if S was ever going to be released in English.

Quote:
2. Why exactly were their names changed anyway? It seems a little weird that they'd change them after the original choices had been used for official merchandise. Perhaps since they were only used (as far as I know) for that one line of toys and a few years had passed by since they came out, the dub producers had forgotten about them or assumed fans who had purchased those figures had?


The names were probably picked out by Irwin Toys, or CWI just had no idea they already had "English names". Remember, Irwin also romanized Kaolinite's name as "Kaori Knight", and kept Prof. Tomoe's name. CWI changed Tomoe's title from "Professor" to "Doctor", and Kaolinite's name became "Kaorinite".

Considering how much the CWI forgot details from the previous dub, I doubt they would've random the names given to the Outers.

Quote:
3. Which set of names do you prefer? Are you glad they changed them or do you wish they had stuck with Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?


I think Nerissa is a really pretty name, but I prefer the ones CWI ended up.

Quote:
5. When exactly were the movies dubbed (I'm guessing some point in 1999?) and when did the dubbing for S start? Some time must have passed for a new company to step in to oversee the dubbing, as well as for five of the characters (Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mini-Moon, and Pluto) to need to be recast.


Most of the recasts were probably because of the rushed production, honestly. Can you imagine getting a call about dubbing 77 episodes in less than year? Voice actors mentioned how dubbing doesn't really pay the bills, so I'm not at all surprised they just passed on it. Terri Hawkes couldn't come back due to her pregnancy, but I don't think an official reason for given for everyone else.

They also could've just forgotten, or not known previous actors for lesser known characters? Or maybe they purposely recasted some characters? Steven Berdnaski stayed on the show voicing Andrew, and a few other background characters but didn't voice Chad in the CWI dub.

Quote:
6. Since the movies had edited dubs that used the DiC BGM, despite their dubbing not being overseen by DiC, it stands to reason that music was still available for use. So why do you think CWi never used that music for their (edited for TV) dub? Was it merely due to time constraints/it being more convenient to simply use the original music, or were there other reasons?


I'm sure it was because of time. Everyone knows the CWI dub was severely rushed, and changing the music would've taken too much time. We also don't know for sure if they had rights to the background music. They for sure had the theme song rights, but nothing else was confirmed. They also didn't have access to the original scene transitions, and made their own.

Quote:
7. If we can talk about the "Black Dream Hole" and SuperS dubs for a second: In the movie, they kept "Mars Flame Sniper" as is and had Serena and Rini's transformation phrase be "Super Moon Crisis Power." So why did CWi not use those phrases for the SuperS dub? I don't see how "shooter" is more acceptable than "sniper" so that change just seems arbitrary, and "Super Moon Crisis Power" is far better than "Moon Cosmic Dream Action" which is just a bizarre mess to me.


Who knows? Why did DIC kept "Small Lady" as is, but CWI changed it to "Little Lady"? Why were they called "Sailor Scouts" one episode, and "Sailor Soldiers" the next? The dub was notorious for being inconsistent, even back in the DIC days.

I've always wondered why all Negaverse references were dropped after R was dubbed. I know they would mention "negative forces" in some instances, but that wasn't often. Part of thinks the "Negaverse" was just a DIC-invention, or somebody thought the use of "Nega" sounded a bit... unfortunate?


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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:13 pm 
Luna Nova
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The names were probably not finalized when the merchandise was being manufactured, if I have to guess. Toy manufacturing usually takes about a year from conception, as far as I know (sometimes longer than that), so perhaps the dolls were designed/named before the show was dubbed and they changed the names after manufacturing had taken place? Usagi was (apparently) originally going to be 'Victoria'' before the Dic dub was finished, I'm assuming they went through a lot of name changes before they started dubbing and since the Outers came far after the Inners, I'm assuming they weren't finalized when the toys were made, or CW had decided to scrap those names after they'd gotten the dubbing rights- or something like that.

Let's all remember that the dolls had already taken some..creative liberties with the dolls :lol: . Pluto was silver, Super Moon had Eternal's sleeves and a Moon Stick instead of the Heart Moon Rod (and a red tiara gem if I'm not mistaken- the sleeves especially annoyed me as a kid and I actually tried to fix them by using tape as the 'wings' on Super Moon's fuku lol), Uranus and Neptune's mini dolls had blue gloves and some of the dolls came with...questionable extra outfits :lol: :lol: Not to mention the ridiculous blurbs on the doll boxes where I think they said the senshi were in high school...in the first season. Not only did they make a lot of inconsistent changes but they were lazy (like the Moon Cycle originally being for the Toonmakers version AFAIK as well as the logo), the Moon dolls from R still had the Moon Stick, I could go on and on LOL

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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:23 am 
Solaris Luna
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tux67 wrote:
Also, weren't they supposedly gonna change Hotaru for Jenny? And did Jennifer Gould voice Hotaru, Mistress 9 AND Sailor Saturn? If so, she deserves some kind of award.


Apparently at one point, Tokyopop gave the Outers "American" names, and Jenny was Hotaru's name. I can't confirm this. Ultimately, all of the Outers retained their Japanese names in the Tokyopop release. The names Amara, Michelle, and Trista were only used in the S dub.

Jennifer Gould voiced Hotaru, and Sailor Saturn. Two unknown actresses voiced Mistress 9.

Quote:
Changing "Super Moon Crisis Power" to "Moon Cosmic Dream Action" is probably the worst name change in the entire original dub. Who knows why they changed those phrases, maybe CWi didn't bother watching the dubbed movies?


Ironically, the Latino dub changed the phrase to "¡Doble Poder Cósmico Lunar, Acción!" (Double Moon Cosmic Power, Action!) which I think is similar. I actually didn't mind "Moon Cosmic Dream Action". I thought it sounded kind of cool? :smug:


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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:43 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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I always assumed they were already called by their Cloverway dub names since Amara and Michelle had the same actors in the movies as in the Cloverway dub but they just weren't mentioned for whatever reason. I personally prefer the names they went with. The original dub names just seem like they would be harder for kids to remember since they don't seem like common names to me. Michelle is a more natural fit for Michiru and Amara just rolls off the tongue easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:36 am 
Luna
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Can we just appreciate that we didn't get those awful names?

Amara is bad enough for a character whose introduced as a gender bender. (Should have been Jesse its a unisex name and can fit the mouth flaps of Haruka) but Corinn is even worse.

Michelle is the incredibly obvious choice to Americanize Michiru.

Celia is okay I guess? Trista works better since it sounds close to the spanish word triste meaning sad and Pluto is the lonely soldier.


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 Post subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:01 am 
Luna
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Umino wrote:
I've always wondered about this. Given the success of the series by the time they finished dubbing R, I would've thought they'd jump at the chance to dub the rest of it. I thought maybe they severed ties with Toei, but they got the rights to Saint Seiya (another Toei property) a few years later.


I'm not an expert on the business side of this but perhaps the license expired? Dic gets the license in 1995 (94?) and cuts down the first 72 episodes to fit the 65 episode order necessary for a syndication package ending on a sort of "there's more to come but just in case its a failure we have an episode that kind of sort of works as a pseudo finale" the show fails due to horrid time slots (in most areas when kids are sleeping or heading to school) but does well in Canada since it aired on network television (YTV) instead of syndication so (iirc) Irwin coughs up the money in 1997 for DiC to at least finish the R arc. USA doesn't get those episodes until a year later when Toonami acquires them. Maybe Dic just lost the license after that?

Quote:
1. What are the Outers' civilian names in the movie dubs? That is to say, since their names are never actually given in either "Hearts in Ice" or "Black Dream Hole," what names do you think were being used internally at that time? Do you think Pioneer/Optimum was still using Corinn, Nerissa, and Celia? Do you think they'd already come up with Amara, Michelle, and Trista? Or do you think they'd decided not to use Corinn, etc, but had yet to come up with replacements?


Quote:
I've always wondered why they dubbed the S and SS movies before there were plans to dub those seasons. It was surreal to me as a kid watching the S movie without any insight if S was ever going to be released in English.

I want to know why Pioneer grabbed the license for the movies but didn't bother to get the license for S and SuperS series (though they handled distributing the home video release)

Quote:

. CWI changed Tomoe's title from "Professor" to "Doctor", and Kaolinite's name became "Kaorinite".


The S dub also treated Kaolinite like Kaori Knight.


Quote:
Considering how much the CWI forgot details from the previous dub, I doubt they would've random the names given to the Outers.


Considering how much OPTIMUM forgot details of their own dub. As the writing was still handled by Optimum.

For pete sake the final 17 episodes of R and the 3 movies were all handled by the same writer (Lisa Lumby) and look how awful the consistency is there. You can't even blame writers not looking at their scripts Lumby couldn't apparently be bothered to remember if its Scouts or Soldiers, Moon Scepter Activation/Moon Princess Elimination/Moon Scepter elimination etc etc

From what we know courtesy of Fred Ladd Dic had their own (uncredited) internal writer who wrote an english script "based" on the Japanese one and then Optimum rewrote it to fit mouth flaps. At least for the first 65 episodes. Hard to say if Cloverway continued this practiceor if it went straight to Optimum either way the "ADR writers" should have caught any inconsistency since one of them was with the show the whole way through. Should be noted Cloverway seemed generally less involved with the show than Dic did.





Quote:
I'm sure it was because of time. Everyone knows the CWI dub was severely rushed, and changing the music would've taken too much time. We also don't know for sure if they had rights to the background music. They for sure had the theme song rights, but nothing else was confirmed. They also didn't have access to the original scene transitions, and made their own.


Worth pointing out the tv airing/vhs versions of the movies that used the DiC music do credit the music to DiC in the end credits. Indicating maybe Pioneer bothered to get the rights to the music and Cloverway didn't? Or maybe Cloverway had the rights and just didn't bother because the entire thing was a rush job. The "lost episodes" and the movies also retain the Japanese sound effects and hazardly just slap the DiC score all over the place (music no longer matches the scene half the time where they tried in the first 65) the Cwi era might have just taken this rush a step further.


Quote:
Who knows? Why did DIC kept "Small Lady" as is, but CWI changed it to "Little Lady"? Why were they called "Sailor Scouts" one episode, and "Sailor Soldiers" the next? The dub was notorious for being inconsistent, even back in the DIC days.


Why did Serena refer to Moon Crystal Power as Moon Star Power for THREE consecutive episodes at the start of the Rini arc?

We talk about how inconsistent the CWI era was especially in S but the syndicated episodes weren't guilt free.

Quote:
I've always wondered why all Negaverse references were dropped after R was dubbed. I know they would mention "negative forces" in some instances, but that wasn't often. Part of thinks the "Negaverse" was just a DIC-invention, or somebody thought the use of "Nega" sounded a bit... unfortunate?



The negaverse business was basically dropped when the last 17 episodes of R where dubbed. Did Dic forget? Or did DiC take more of a backseat to Optimum and Optimum didn't care?


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