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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:38 pm 
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SmallLadySerenity wrote:
I think you mean "Black Moon Clan" and "Death Busters".


Technically they kind of mean the same things although the names you quote may be more official I'll admit.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:50 pm 
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onesurvive wrote:
Hold on didn't Usagi age from 14 to 16 from season 1 to Stars?
*sigh* Yes. Just goes to show how messed up the timeline is in the anime.

The reason she only ages that much is because that's how much she aged in the manga:
Age 14 - Dark Kingdom and Black Moon arcs
Age 15 - Mugen arc
Age 16 - Yume arc and Stars arc

The anime was just following this format (well, sorta, as it kept Usagi at 15 and Grade 9 in SuperS and didn't advance her to 10th Grade until Sailor Stars), and as a result of going through all four seasonal cycles five times, messed up its own timeline.

Many fans have attempted to come up with theories to fix this (like claiming time reversed a year at the end of Classic, or that time froze during SuperS), but these are mere fan theories and have no bearing on the official canonicity of the series.

BTW, I wrote that post that you quoted.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:26 am 
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SmallLadySerenity wrote:
I think you mean "Black Moon Clan" and "Death Busters".



And this is why weeboos suck.


For the timeline I always thought season 1 started in the Fall and ended in the winter. Season 2 took place in the Spring time and season 3 started in the summer.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:57 am 
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BlueEyes wrote:
SmallLadySerenity wrote:
I think you mean "Black Moon Clan" and "Death Busters".



And this is why weeboos suck.
But those are English terms. Kodansha say so. :tongue: ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:44 am 
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I think Apostles of Death was a cool name for the death busters. (Mara, Why didn't you tell us?)

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:40 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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'Death Apostles' would have been a great name for the Death Busters because of the religious motif. Death Busters is just nonsensical English, if anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:37 pm 
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It sounds like they're here to stop death rather than to bring it, to be honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Most of the attack names make no sense and you're complaining about Death Busters? XD But yeah. Black Moon Clan (Ichizoku) and Death Busters are the official names. Pure Heart Snatchers and Dark Moon Family are the dub names. And they took FOREVER to settle on "Pure Heart Snatchers"; the S dub was horrible at consistency.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:11 pm 
Galaxias
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Sailor Biccy wrote:
Most of the attack names make no sense and you're complaining about Death Busters? XD But yeah. Black Moon Clan (Ichizoku) and Death Busters are the official names. Pure Heart Snatchers and Dark Moon Family are the dub names. And they took FOREVER to settle on "Pure Heart Snatchers"; the S dub was horrible at consistency.
"Negamoon Family" and "Heart Snatchers" were the dub names.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:01 am 
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NegaMoon Family. I cant believe that...Its been a long time since I saw the dub and I forgot that horrible name and all..Eek...:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:22 am 
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"Negamoon" was dropped partway through R and "Dark Moon" replaced it, so both are correct. And again, the S dub was terrible at consistency. XD Pure Heart Snatcher and Heart Snatcher were used frequently. By the same token, they're also the Bureau of Bad Behavior. Which may have also been what they called the Witches 5. Except when they were called the Witches 5. Until they weren't.

Let's not even get into what they called the various Messiahs, Talismans...

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:49 am 
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Sailor Biccy wrote:
they're also the Bureau of Bad Behavior


WTH! LMAO.. They actually called them that!! XD


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:52 am 
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Sailor Biccy wrote:
"Negamoon" was dropped partway through R and "Dark Moon" replaced it,
No it wasn't. "Negamoon" remained even as late as the episode where the king gives Nemesis' history, which was close to the very end of the series.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am 
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They definitely used "Dark Moon" in the latter part of R, though. They may have switched it around (some of the same writers as S, after all), but both are accurate.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:11 am 
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Sailor Biccy wrote:
They definitely used "Dark Moon" in the latter part of R, though. They may have switched it around (some of the same writers as S, after all), but both are accurate.
They might have used it as an informal descriptor like how it was in the Japanese version*, in reference to Nemesis. Though, it has been a while since I saw the DiC dub.

*- As in "Black Moon, clan of the dark moon" ("Ankoku no tsuki no ichizoku Burakku Muun") or in "The Black Moon Clan from the dark moon" ("Ankoku no tsuki Burakku Muun Ichizoku").

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:34 am 
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Sailor Biccy wrote:
They definitely used "Dark Moon" in the latter part of R, though. They may have switched it around (some of the same writers as S, after all), but both are accurate.


The last 17 episodes of R had only one writer Lisa Lumby. Who had been there since the beginning of the dub and stayed on for S. And after a recent rewatch I can tell you Negamoon was used almost exclusively even in those episodes with dark moon being being pretty infrequent. And seeing how one of the episodes was titled "legend on the Negamoon" it's pretty safe to say Negamoon is the official name of the dub.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:13 pm 
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abc123youandme wrote:
Sailor Biccy wrote:
They definitely used "Dark Moon" in the latter part of R, though. They may have switched it around (some of the same writers as S, after all), but both are accurate.


The last 17 episodes of R had only one writer Lisa Lumby. Who had been there since the beginning of the dub and stayed on for S. And after a recent rewatch I can tell you Negamoon was used almost exclusively even in those episodes with dark moon being being pretty infrequent. And seeing how one of the episodes was titled "legend on the Negamoon" it's pretty safe to say Negamoon is the official name of the dub.
Thanks for the extra info.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:20 pm 
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Sailor Biccy wrote:
Most of the attack names make no sense and you're complaining about Death Busters? XD But yeah. Black Moon Clan (Ichizoku) and Death Busters are the official names. Pure Heart Snatchers and Dark Moon Family are the dub names. And they took FOREVER to settle on "Pure Heart Snatchers"; the S dub was horrible at consistency.


Well, raw translations rarely make sense. Especially from japanese to english.

That's why I prefer the hungarian dub. It calls the senshi fairies, changes their "attack names" to more or less proper invocations, such as "Supreme Thunders, strike down from above!"

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:54 am 
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Boro wrote:
Sailor Biccy wrote:
Most of the attack names make no sense and you're complaining about Death Busters? XD But yeah. Black Moon Clan (Ichizoku) and Death Busters are the official names. Pure Heart Snatchers and Dark Moon Family are the dub names. And they took FOREVER to settle on "Pure Heart Snatchers"; the S dub was horrible at consistency.


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Well, raw translations rarely make sense. Especially from japanese to english.


They're not raw "translations" though :? :? the Japanese version has the Soldiers saying their attack names in Engrish. Those Engrish names just rarely make any sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:35 pm 
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Sabrblade wrote:
Sailor Biccy wrote:
They definitely used "Dark Moon" in the latter part of R, though. They may have switched it around (some of the same writers as S, after all), but both are accurate.
They might have used it as an informal descriptor like how it was in the Japanese version*, in reference to Nemesis. Though, it has been a while since I saw the DiC dub.

*- As in "Black Moon, clan of the dark moon" ("Ankoku no tsuki no ichizoku Burakku Muun") or in "The Black Moon Clan from the dark moon" ("Ankoku no tsuki Burakku Muun Ichizoku").



I know in the DiC dub at least Catsi introduced herself as being from the dark moon of the Negaverse.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:48 am 
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onesurvive wrote:
Read this on wikimoon...

"While it seems the SuperS movie is to be set after the SuperS season, the fact that Sailor Pluto is fighting alongside Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune contradicts her arrival in the first episode of Sailor Moon Sailor Stars. When she appeared at that time, Uranus and Neptune were surprised that Pluto is alive, because they had witnessed her death in a helicopter explosion in Sailor Moon S."

I never really put much thought into it until reading that. Anyone have thought how the SuperS movie could fit into the community. It could be that sometime not shown in the movie Pluto comes back and confronts Uranus and Neptune about how she came back and why and then the time frame from the SuperS movie to the first episode of Stars is a while theirfore Haruka and Michiru are shocked to see Pluto because it's just been a while.

Another thing written is...
Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune also used their new attacks in this movie before they obtained them in the television series.

This is true but it's not like they get them later on, they're always just used as attacks from then on so again they could have obtained them before hand during their SuperS absence.

There is nothing saying that Uranus and Neptune did not already have these attacks when they got their talismans in S. In fact they could use these attacks in the manga when they were in their first forms. The whole Sailor Pluto thing is a little harder to explain. In my fanfic I explained this with my own Sailor Moon Sailor Stars movie that takes place before and after the SuperS movie that explains how Pluto got freed and then what happened to her.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:12 am 
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MariaTenebre wrote:
There is nothing saying that Uranus and Neptune did not already have these attacks when they got their talismans in S. In fact they could use these attacks in the manga when they were in their first forms. The whole Sailor Pluto thing is a little harder to explain. In my fanfic I explained this with my own Sailor Moon Sailor Stars movie that takes place before and after the SuperS movie that explains how Pluto got freed and then what happened to her.


They used them in the manga, yes, but in the anime it's sort of implied that they didn't start using those attacks until after they were "powered up" by Hotaru in episode 167.

But maybe I should write a fanfic that explains away all the plot holes and refer to it a lot, too, instead of canon sources.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:17 am 
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Id read it.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:22 am 
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Kerochan no Miko wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
There is nothing saying that Uranus and Neptune did not already have these attacks when they got their talismans in S. In fact they could use these attacks in the manga when they were in their first forms. The whole Sailor Pluto thing is a little harder to explain. In my fanfic I explained this with my own Sailor Moon Sailor Stars movie that takes place before and after the SuperS movie that explains how Pluto got freed and then what happened to her.


They used them in the manga, yes, but in the anime it's sort of implied that they didn't start using those attacks until after they were "powered up" by Hotaru in episode 167.

But maybe I should write a fanfic that explains away all the plot holes and refer to it a lot, too, instead of canon sources.

First of all cut the snarky attitude. There was nothing in the anime that implied that the Outers did not have these attacks before Hotaru powered them up. What it was said was that they had a surge of power not that they were using any new attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:24 pm 
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MariaTenebre wrote:
Kerochan no Miko wrote:
They used them in the manga, yes, but in the anime it's sort of implied that they didn't start using those attacks until after they were "powered up" by Hotaru in episode 167.

But maybe I should write a fanfic that explains away all the plot holes and refer to it a lot, too, instead of canon sources.

First of all cut the snarky attitude. There was nothing in the anime that implied that the Outers did not have these attacks before Hotaru powered them up. What it was said was that they had a surge of power not that they were using any new attacks.


I challenge you to enter a discussion about canon facts without plugging your fanfic. Seriously.

And nothing in the anime? It is open to interpretation whether or not it's true, certainly, but the fact that they didn't use those attacks at all in S is a pretty good sign that they didn't have them - do you seriously think that Uranus and Neptune, the senshi who were throwing everything they had plus the kitchen sink at the Death Busters, would have not used their talisman attacks if they'd had them? I think that's enough evidence that they didn't have access to them at that point in time. Plus, there were a lot of manga attacks that should have existed in S but didn't. Shine Snow Illusion, anyone?

And any time in the anime that someone had a powerup they got a new attack with it. They got a powerup from Hotaru, then immediately used new attacks. It's logically consistent that said powerup gave them the ability to use those attacks, wouldn't you say?


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:22 pm 
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Kerochan no Miko wrote:
I challenge you to enter a discussion about canon facts without plugging your fanfic. Seriously.
Or fan theories in general.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:40 pm 
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when discussing well known plot holes the only way to really cover em up can be with fan theories. otherwise they'd just be plot.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:05 am 
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Kerochan no Miko wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
Kerochan no Miko wrote:
They used them in the manga, yes, but in the anime it's sort of implied that they didn't start using those attacks until after they were "powered up" by Hotaru in episode 167.

But maybe I should write a fanfic that explains away all the plot holes and refer to it a lot, too, instead of canon sources.

First of all cut the snarky attitude. There was nothing in the anime that implied that the Outers did not have these attacks before Hotaru powered them up. What it was said was that they had a surge of power not that they were using any new attacks.


I challenge you to enter a discussion about canon facts without plugging your fanfic. Seriously.

And nothing in the anime? It is open to interpretation whether or not it's true, certainly, but the fact that they didn't use those attacks at all in S is a pretty good sign that they didn't have them - do you seriously think that Uranus and Neptune, the senshi who were throwing everything they had plus the kitchen sink at the Death Busters, would have not used their talisman attacks if they'd had them? I think that's enough evidence that they didn't have access to them at that point in time. Plus, there were a lot of manga attacks that should have existed in S but didn't. Shine Snow Illusion, anyone?

And any time in the anime that someone had a powerup they got a new attack with it. They got a powerup from Hotaru, then immediately used new attacks. It's logically consistent that said powerup gave them the ability to use those attacks, wouldn't you say?

I have mentioned canon facts. I only mentioned my fanfiction because it was related to the topic and countless people here do the same things.

Also again just because they did not use them in S dosen't mean they did not have them. We never saw the Outer's Super transformations in Sailor Stars but that dosen't mean they did not have them. In fact they didn't really rely on their talismans at all in S until Pluto told them to and in fact their attacks used against germatoid were like precursors to these attacks. There is absolutely nothing in the show saying they did not already get these attacks when they got their talismans.

Also no this is not always so sometimes Senshi get power ups but no new attacks. After Saturn powered up Pluto, Pluto did not get a new attack. All she used in the Sailor Stars show was Dead Scream over and over again. All it was said was they were given a power upgrade and they showed this power upgrade at first by showing how their World Shaking, Deep Submerge and Dead Scream against the Mirror Paredis. Saturn too never got a new attack. The only attack we saw here use was Silence Glaive Surprise and there is nothing saying that particular attack she could use in her first form or second form. In actuality the anime was very stingy on giving the Outers new attacks. Again you have no canon facts to say that that Uranus and Neptune could not already use these attacks in the anime. Plus it wouldn't make much sense for them to be given these talismans in S and have no attacks to use with them. That would be like Sailor Moon receiving a wand and having no attacks to use with it. It only makes sense that they would have attacks for these weapons when they got them.

However when it comes to the first 2 movies there are really no plotholes and they can easily fit in the R and S seasons respectively. People make a big deal about the enemies of those seasons not being there but the senshi were not fighting the enemies every single day of the year. Sometimes they had down time.

Some plot holes I don't know if it was mentioned was related to the Disguise Pen. In the Makaiju arc Luna says that only Usagi can use it however in S Minako uses it. They should have had Minako just to use her compact mirror from her Sailor V days to transform into the fake Sailor Moon.

Another plot hole is how the enemies work in Stars. The Animamates seem to act like they seriously do not know that Sailor Senshi are the ones that have Sailor Crystals even though they have completely conquered most of the galaxy. My brother had a theory on this based on canon but since I can't mention theories without some people getting pissy then I will just keep it to my self.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:50 am 
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MariaTenebre wrote:
Also again just because they did not use them in S dosen't mean they did not have them. We never saw the Outer's Super transformations in Sailor Stars but that dosen't mean they did not have them. In fact they didn't really rely on their talismans at all in S until Pluto told them to and in fact their attacks used against germatoid were like precursors to these attacks. There is absolutely nothing in the show saying they did not already get these attacks when they got their talismans.


No, it's not an absolute fact.

However, there's also no reason to think that they did have them in S.

I just think it's logically inconsistent to believe that they did have them and yet didn't use them for some mysterious reason.

MariaTenebre wrote:
Also no this is not always so sometimes Senshi get power ups but no new attacks. After Saturn powered up Pluto, Pluto did not get a new attack. All she used in the Sailor Stars show was Dead Scream over and over again. All it was said was they were given a power upgrade and they showed this power upgrade at first by showing how their World Shaking, Deep Submerge and Dead Scream against the Mirror Paredis. Saturn too never got a new attack. The only attack we saw here use was Silence Glaive Surprise and there is nothing saying that particular attack she could use in her first form or second form. In actuality the anime was very stingy on giving the Outers new attacks. Again you have no canon facts to say that that Uranus and Neptune could not already use these attacks in the anime. Plus it wouldn't make much sense for them to be given these talismans in S and have no attacks to use with them. That would be like Sailor Moon receiving a wand and having no attacks to use with it. It only makes sense that they would have attacks for these weapons when they got them.


Saturn did get a new ability - Silence Wall. She never used that until after the powerup. Why didn't Pluto use a new power? I don't know. But if three of the four of them did then it's more likely that she is the exception than the other way around.

It wouldn't make sense in your head. Maybe they hadn't learned how to use them yet. Maybe they didn't have enough power and had to practice more in order to use them. We don't know. When it comes to places where canon doesn't explicitly state something, as in this situation, all we can do is piece together the scraps of information that we have and use logic to fill in the gaps.

Since you think that my logic is flawed, I turn it back on you. Why do you think Uranus and Neptune inexplicably didn't use their most powerful attacks against an enemy that they felt was so dangerous that they were willing to sacrifice the entire world as well as each other in order to destroy it? What reason would they have to hold back?


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:13 am 
Stella
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Kerochan no Miko wrote:
MariaTenebre wrote:
Also again just because they did not use them in S dosen't mean they did not have them. We never saw the Outer's Super transformations in Sailor Stars but that dosen't mean they did not have them. In fact they didn't really rely on their talismans at all in S until Pluto told them to and in fact their attacks used against germatoid were like precursors to these attacks. There is absolutely nothing in the show saying they did not already get these attacks when they got their talismans.


No, it's not an absolute fact.

However, there's also no reason to think that they did have them in S.

I just think it's logically inconsistent to believe that they did have them and yet didn't use them for some mysterious reason.

MariaTenebre wrote:
Also no this is not always so sometimes Senshi get power ups but no new attacks. After Saturn powered up Pluto, Pluto did not get a new attack. All she used in the Sailor Stars show was Dead Scream over and over again. All it was said was they were given a power upgrade and they showed this power upgrade at first by showing how their World Shaking, Deep Submerge and Dead Scream against the Mirror Paredis. Saturn too never got a new attack. The only attack we saw here use was Silence Glaive Surprise and there is nothing saying that particular attack she could use in her first form or second form. In actuality the anime was very stingy on giving the Outers new attacks. Again you have no canon facts to say that that Uranus and Neptune could not already use these attacks in the anime. Plus it wouldn't make much sense for them to be given these talismans in S and have no attacks to use with them. That would be like Sailor Moon receiving a wand and having no attacks to use with it. It only makes sense that they would have attacks for these weapons when they got them.


Saturn did get a new ability - Silence Wall. She never used that until after the powerup. Why didn't Pluto use a new power? I don't know. But if three of the four of them did then it's more likely that she is the exception than the other way around.

It wouldn't make sense in your head. Maybe they hadn't learned how to use them yet. Maybe they didn't have enough power and had to practice more in order to use them. We don't know. When it comes to places where canon doesn't explicitly state something, as in this situation, all we can do is piece together the scraps of information that we have and use logic to fill in the gaps.

Since you think that my logic is flawed, I turn it back on you. Why do you think Uranus and Neptune inexplicably didn't use their most powerful attacks against an enemy that they felt was so dangerous that they were willing to sacrifice the entire world as well as each other in order to destroy it? What reason would they have to hold back?

It does make sense what dosen't make sense is that they would be given new weapons and not be able to use attacks with them. Again I go back to the wand analogy to Sailor Moon. Having the weapons but not being able to attack with them is as foolish as Sailor Moon being given a new wand but have no attacks with it. Again they skimped out on showing the Outers attacks in general and as I mentioned they more so relied on their original attacks until that one point in S where they used abilities similar to their talisman attacks. That shows atleast that they already have these powers we just didn't get to see them do the attack until later.

As for Saturn again you have no proof that Saturn did not already know the attack Silence Wall in her original form. We never got to see Sailor Saturn attack in her original form so it is impossible to know what her attacks were. So again there is no proof that she got any new attacks. The same goes for Pluto.

Well again as I mentioned on S they used attacks with these weapons similar to their talisman attacks. Which atleast shows they already had these powers again. Just because they did not show these attacks dosen't mean they did not have them. I can go back to the very same analogy of them not showing the Outer's Super transformations even though they already had them. The anime was very stingy about showing the Outers attacks anyway and even still if your idea was that they needed more practice to use them then maybe they got that practice in between the time of their exist on S and the time of the SuperS movie.

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