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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:06 am 
moonprism wrote:
Here I'll explain the super outfit thing.

The future changed. The time line has been changed due to various factors, such as Chibiusa taking vacations in the past.

Thus the future we saw won't necessarily happen like that.


Exactly!


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:51 am 
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Kumani wrote:
Wha...

When/how did the future change? The super form was just a way to become more powerful, have more powers and whatnot.

Actually, thinking of this, it's a good explanation for the super outfits.
If Chibi-usa hadn't come to the present, she wouldn't have met Helios, and he wouldn't have given the Inners super transformations, so it makes sense that this aspect changed in the future.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
I don't think that all those giant towers were constructed by Luna with a hammer in one paw and a wrench in another.


I'm sure it was all built in a matter of seconds with the silver crystal.

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 Post subject: Re: Sailor Moon Plotholes.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:07 pm 
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SailorTerra wrote:
...Sometimes a cartoon is just a cartoon. :|


NO!! haha there must be an explaination!! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Explanation? Sorry, but searching for plot holes in SM is like searching for trees in a rainforest. There are more holes than there is plot.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:36 am 
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The SuperS movie is out of continuity, that's not uncommon for anime movies. It's not really a plot hole. If you want to go by the dub The SuperS movie acts like a series finale since Stars never aired and thus Pluto being back was never contradicted.


The S movie either takes some time after Usagi obtains the Holy Grail but before the Mistress 9 business or is out of continuity take your pick.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:51 am 
Galaxias
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WHY did you necrobump such an old topic, onesurvive? :dead:

abc123youandme wrote:
The S movie either takes some time after Usagi obtains the Holy Grail but before the Mistress 9 business or is out of continuity take your pick.
It can fit between episodes 122 and 123.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:03 am 
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Sabrblade wrote:
WHY did you necrobump such an old topic, onesurvive? :dead:

abc123youandme wrote:
The S movie either takes some time after Usagi obtains the Holy Grail but before the Mistress 9 business or is out of continuity take your pick.
It can fit between episodes 122 and 123.


Then you have to wonder though why the Outers and the Silver Millenium Senshi seem to have no problem with each other in the movie even though there was a rift between them at the time for their conflict of interest in regards to Hotaru


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:20 am 
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abc123youandme wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
WHY did you necrobump such an old topic, onesurvive? :dead:

abc123youandme wrote:
The S movie either takes some time after Usagi obtains the Holy Grail but before the Mistress 9 business or is out of continuity take your pick.
It can fit between episodes 122 and 123.


Then you have to wonder though why the Outers and the Silver Millenium Senshi seem to have no problem with each other in the movie even though there was a rift between them at the time for their conflict of interest in regards to Hotaru
At the end of episode 122, the Inners and Outers ended on good terms with one another, as Haruka and Michiru expressed their gratitude towards Ami. Despite Ami's idealism costing them a chance to get at the Messiah of Silence, it was because of it that Haruka and Michiru were saved, and they all smile and laugh together happily, thus giving an opening for their good feelings toward each other in the movie.

Not to mention that this also gives the Death Busters an out to make room for Princess Snow Kaguya since the Death Busters retreat into hiding at the end of 122, laying low for a bit before making their move in 123.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:10 am 
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Out of curiosity where would you place the R movie and the SuperS movie? I would put the R movie internal to the events of episode 88 after the battle with Death Phantom but before Chibi usa goes home. And SuperS seems best fit to happen after the season proper (ignoring the Pluto thing)


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:26 pm 
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abc123youandme wrote:
Out of curiosity where would you place the R movie and the SuperS movie? I would put the R movie internal to the events of episode 88 after the battle with Death Phantom but before Chibi usa goes home. And SuperS seems best fit to happen after the season proper (ignoring the Pluto thing)
The SuperS movie doesn't fit thanks to Pluto. And any explanations to reconcile her presence there with her return in Sailor Stars are ones we have to make up in order to make sense. And if we have make stuff up for something to work, then it technically doesn't work to begin with, right? ;)

Also, the opening theme song sequence for the SuperS movie shows imagery that suggests that the Outers have always been around and regularly hung out with the Inners so casually, which wasn't the case for the SuperS anime.


As for the R movie, four factors come into play:
1. Mamoru and Usagi are a couple.
2. Chibiusa knows their identities.
3. They're in the present rather than the future.
4. They're all wearing their winter civilian clothes.

This could put it anywhere after episode 77 (when Usagi and Mamoru get back together again) but before episode 81 (since that episode's ending initiates their decision to go to the future). I personally like to put it between episodes 79 and 80 because 79 has a lot of green plantlife growing healthily in it despite it being winter, which fits nicely with all the healthy plantlife we see growing both in and away from the botanical garden in the R movie.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Usually anime films, especially ones made by Toei take place outside of a series' continuity. Take for example the Dragon Ball films. None of them fit in the TV series.

Sabrblade wrote:
Also, the opening theme song sequence for the SuperS movie shows imagery that suggests that the Outers have always been around and regularly hung out with the Inners so casually, which wasn't the case for the SuperS anime.


The opening also depicts Haruka and Michiru with their Mugen Academy uniforms. Chibiusa also walks by a group of girls with Mugen Academy uniforms, implying it's still around. There's also no mention of Hotaru, and Chibimoon has her own Kaleidoscope wand. Plus you have to consider the fact the original script for the Super S movie was not in the series canon at all.

Quote:
As for the R movie, four factors come into play:
1. Mamoru and Usagi are a couple.
2. Chibiusa knows their identities.
3. They're in the present rather than the future.
4. They're all wearing their winter civilian clothes.

This could put it anywhere after episode 77 (when Usagi and Mamoru get back together again) but before episode 81 (since that episode's ending initiates their decision to go to the future). I personally like to put it between episodes 79 and 80 because 79 has a lot of green plantlife growing healthily in it despite it being winter, which fits nicely with all the healthy plantlife we see growing both in and away from the botanical garden in the R movie.


The thing about the R movie is that it seems like it takes place during Spring. It doesn't outright say that, but look at the settings. The only time I remember it being like that in R is at the end of episode 89.

S is another tricky one. Everyone goes "Oh it takes place during episode 122 because it's snowing!". But they seem to forget how heated the war against the Death Busters was getting. I doubt this whole subplot could fit in such a small span of time. You also have no reference to Hotaru at all, and the Outers act a bit differently than in the TV series. Although they kind of stay on their own, they still work together with everyone else. Plus Uranus saying "I won't let you die!" to Sailor Moon seems a bit out of character. That's more so something she'd say in the manga really.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:03 pm 
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Umino wrote:

The thing about the R movie is that it seems like it takes place during Spring. It doesn't outright say that, but look at the settings. The only time I remember it being like that in R is at the end of episode 89.


Which is why I suspect the R movie takes place within episode 88. Right after the Senshi defeat the Death Phantom, but before they send Chibi-usa home.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:40 am 
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Umino wrote:
The thing about the R movie is that it seems like it takes place during Spring. It doesn't outright say that, but look at the settings. The only time I remember it being like that in R is at the end of episode 89.
It is very rare that we ever see Winter actually look like Winter in this show. Look at episode 79, for instance. There's tons of greenery growing healthy all throughout that episode, yet it occurs during the winter. The same can apply for the R movie since the clothes worn by the characters in that movie would go on to be worn by them during Winter episodes of S and SuperS.

Umino wrote:
S is another tricky one. Everyone goes "Oh it takes place during episode 122 because it's snowing!". But they seem to forget how heated the war against the Death Busters was getting. I doubt this whole subplot could fit in such a small span of time. You also have no reference to Hotaru at all, and the Outers act a bit differently than in the TV series. Although they kind of stay on their own, they still work together with everyone else. Plus Uranus saying "I won't let you die!" to Sailor Moon seems a bit out of character. That's more so something she'd say in the manga really.
Sabrblade wrote:
At the end of episode 122, the Inners and Outers ended on good terms with one another, as Haruka and Michiru expressed their gratitude towards Ami. Despite Ami's idealism costing them a chance to get at the Messiah of Silence, it was because of it that Haruka and Michiru were saved, and they all smile and laugh together happily, thus giving an opening for their good feelings toward each other in the movie.

Not to mention that this also gives the Death Busters an out to make room for Princess Snow Kaguya since the Death Busters retreat into hiding at the end of 122, laying low for a bit before making their move in 123.
As for the lack of mentioning Hotaru, just cuz they don't bring her up doesn't mean it some sort of contradiction. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:58 am 
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Eh so, that doesn't really explain the Outers' actions in the movie. P-:

Not to mention the short story it's based off of, Princess Kaguya's Lover does not take place anywhere in the manga canon.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:40 pm 
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Umino wrote:
Usually anime films, especially ones made by Toei take place outside of a series' continuity. Take for example the Dragon Ball films. None of them fit in the TV series.


Precisely. I've only ever seen one of the three movies but I've always understood from what I've read on the internet comments and reviews that it's impossible to fit them into the continuity of the TV series. In other words they are non-canonical taking place in their own separate universe.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:25 pm 
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Sailor Mars Fanatic wrote:
Umino wrote:
Usually anime films, especially ones made by Toei take place outside of a series' continuity. Take for example the Dragon Ball films. None of them fit in the TV series.


Precisely. I've only ever seen one of the three movies but I've always understood from what I've read on the internet comments and reviews that it's impossible to fit them into the continuity of the TV series. In other words they are non-canonical taking place in their own separate universe.


theres some debate on whether or not they can work. For instance SuperS really doesn't work simply because of their reactions to say, Sailor Pluto, later. and it can't take place early in stars as the outers almost immediately get their upgrade.

Sailor moon R seems to be able to fit right between two specific episodes. and I think S has the same possibility. Either way you can imagine them as fitting in somewhere. Only SuperS contradicts anything important (a characters death) but even that was proven not to be final, later.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:09 pm 
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cat hat wrote:
Sailor Mars Fanatic wrote:
Umino wrote:
Usually anime films, especially ones made by Toei take place outside of a series' continuity. Take for example the Dragon Ball films. None of them fit in the TV series.


Precisely. I've only ever seen one of the three movies but I've always understood from what I've read on the internet comments and reviews that it's impossible to fit them into the continuity of the TV series. In other words they are non-canonical taking place in their own separate universe.


theres some debate on whether or not they can work. For instance SuperS really doesn't work simply because of their reactions to say, Sailor Pluto, later. and it can't take place early in stars as the outers almost immediately get their upgrade.

Sailor moon R seems to be able to fit right between two specific episodes. and I think S has the same possibility. Either way you can imagine them as fitting in somewhere. Only SuperS contradicts anything important (a characters death) but even that was proven not to be final, later.
Right, as i said before:

R movie - can fit between 77 and 81
S movie - can fit between 122 and 123
SuperS movie - cannot fit, period.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:56 pm 
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cat hat wrote:

Sailor moon R seems to be able to fit right between two specific episodes. and I think S has the same possibility. Either way you can imagine them as fitting in somewhere. Only SuperS contradicts anything important (a characters death) but even that was proven not to be final, later.




I think its less that SuperS contradicts Pluto's death and more Uranus and Neptune shouldn't be surprised that Pluto is alive in Stars, f SuperS movie was canon.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:04 pm 
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abc123youandme wrote:
cat hat wrote:

Sailor moon R seems to be able to fit right between two specific episodes. and I think S has the same possibility. Either way you can imagine them as fitting in somewhere. Only SuperS contradicts anything important (a characters death) but even that was proven not to be final, later.




I think its less that SuperS contradicts Pluto's death and more Uranus and Neptune shouldn't be surprised that Pluto is alive in Stars, f SuperS movie was canon.


thats another way to think about it. either way, because she IS alive i feel like its not the most horrible contradiction. its easier to think of it as happening as opposed to separate universes within the same format (at least for me).

to each their own though.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:16 pm 
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But Neptune and Uranus shouldn't have been surprised that Pluto is alive in Stars., that's the problem.

The SuperS movie doesn't fit in continuity because she's with Uranus and Neptune, alive and well. But then in Stars they're surprised to see her alive.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:56 pm 
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abc123youandme wrote:
But Neptune and Uranus shouldn't have been surprised that Pluto is alive in Stars., that's the problem.

The SuperS movie doesn't fit in continuity because she's with Uranus and Neptune, alive and well. But then in Stars they're surprised to see her alive.


thats why I said it is the only one thats really contradictory, but overall its something you can ignore pretty easily, if u so choose. I prefer the R and S films so am glad there aren't any major major plot holes.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:54 pm 
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cat hat wrote:
I prefer the R and S films so am glad there aren't any major major plot holes.
For me, I prefer the R movie first, then the SuperS movie, and then the S movie.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:25 am 
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Sabrblade wrote:
cat hat wrote:
I prefer the R and S films so am glad there aren't any major major plot holes.
For me, I prefer the R movie first, then the SuperS movie, and then the S movie.


I think the problem I had with the supers movie is the same problem i had with supers in general.

I watched it without knowing anything about the set up, so suddenly the animation was different, everything was girly and weird, and the costumes were new. i just never shook it when i got back into the show.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:00 am 
Galaxias
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cat hat wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
cat hat wrote:
I prefer the R and S films so am glad there aren't any major major plot holes.
For me, I prefer the R movie first, then the SuperS movie, and then the S movie.


I think the problem I had with the supers movie is the same problem i had with supers in general.

I watched it without knowing anything about the set up, so suddenly the animation was different, everything was girly and weird, and the costumes were new. i just never shook it when i got back into the show.
The only reason I prefer the SuperS movie over the S movie is that, unlike the S movie, the SuperS movie (and the R movie) is not boring. There's all sort of crazy, ridiculous stuff going in it that it puts the S movie's vapidity to shame. :tongue:

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:02 am 
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Quote:
The only reason I prefer the SuperS movie over the S movie is that, unlike the S movie, the SuperS movie (and the R movie) is not boring. There's all sort of crazy, ridiculous stuff going in it that it puts the S movie's vapidity to shame.


I like the R movie because it was just a really fun big adventure. the S movie I enjoy because of the more elegant side to it that gave it more of the tone of the manga (though I found Luna's plot very boring). SuperS was just 2candy4me.

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:08 pm 
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cat hat wrote:
Sailor Mars Fanatic wrote:
Umino wrote:
Usually anime films, especially ones made by Toei take place outside of a series' continuity. Take for example the Dragon Ball films. None of them fit in the TV series.


Precisely. I've only ever seen one of the three movies but I've always understood from what I've read on the internet comments and reviews that it's impossible to fit them into the continuity of the TV series. In other words they are non-canonical taking place in their own separate universe.


theres some debate on whether or not they can work. For instance SuperS really doesn't work simply because of their reactions to say, Sailor Pluto, later. and it can't take place early in stars as the outers almost immediately get their upgrade.

Sailor moon R seems to be able to fit right between two specific episodes. and I think S has the same possibility. Either way you can imagine them as fitting in somewhere. Only SuperS contradicts anything important (a characters death) but even that was proven not to be final, later.


The biggest argument against the suggestion of the R and S movies fitting in mid-way through their corresponding respective seasons is that this would mean the conspiracies of the Dark Moon Family and the Pure Heart Snatchers would have to technically still be at large but for unexplained and unknown reasons inactive during the events of the movies. It does seem rather far-fetched but if you like to look at them that way then after all television and movies are often far-fetched in certain ways in any case.


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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:07 pm 
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I think you mean "Black Moon Clan" and "Death Busters".

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:12 pm 
Galaxias
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Sailor Mars Fanatic wrote:
The biggest argument against the suggestion of the R and S movies fitting in mid-way through their corresponding respective seasons is that this would mean the conspiracies of the Dark Moon Family and the Pure Heart Snatchers would have to technically still be at large but for unexplained and unknown reasons inactive during the events of the movies. It does seem rather far-fetched but if you like to look at them that way then after all television and movies are often far-fetched in certain ways in any case.
Well, consider this. In the anime, each of the five seasons are shown to span a full year seasonal cycle of Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter. And there are 365 days in a year. But, each season never exceeded more than 46 episodes at most. On average, most episodes took place within a single day, while some either spanned two days or so, or had multi-parters taking place across the same day. Meaning that, even though we saw an entire year go by five times, the amount of episodes each season had meant that we didn't see the events of all 365 days occur on screen. In those in-between episode days, we have no way of saying whether the Black Moon Clan or the Death Busters attacked regularly every single day of the year or not. I would tend to think not because the enemies, despite their diligence, were still human and thus would need opportunities to rest and recover from their daily operations. During these periods of downtime, that would give the events of the movies time to transpire.

There is also, at least, two examples in the anime that show the enemies did not attack for a period of time since there was no villain activity shown to happen: Episodes 20 and 67, in which the Sailor Senshi go on vacation to the beach both times, and neither the Dark Kingdom nor the Black Moon Clan are seen or mentioned. And if they did attack during those times, there's no sign of any off screen attack in the episodes following either of those two despite the Senshi having left Juban vulnerable and unprotected both times.

Therefore, it's not entirely out of the question to think of the enemy attacks as not occurring on every single day of the year. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Plot holes in the anime?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Sabrblade wrote:
WHY did you necrobump such an old topic, onesurvive? :dead:


I was just reading some old ones and felt like it ;)

Sailor Mars Fanatic wrote:
On average, most episodes took place within a single day, while some either spanned two days or so, or had multi-parters taking place across the same day. Meaning that, even though we saw an entire year go by five times, the amount of episodes each season had meant that we didn't see the events of all 365 days occur on screen.


Hold on didn't Usagi age from 14 to 16 from season 1 to Stars?

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