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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:04 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Salem Saberhagen wrote:
Perhaps another measure will be an increase of automation so less jobs have to be filled? Well I'm not the business expert, I hope people who are are tackling this.

Increasing automation will increase revenues of those in control of that automation, not of all people. At least as long as we live in a capitalistic society. If they have less workers remaining they will pay more to skilled workers who know how to control and program robots - certainly not feeding for free ever increasing amount of people who sit at home and whose job is now done by robots.

So perhaps the best solution for the aging population problem would be like this: :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film)

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:18 pm 
Galaxias
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
So perhaps the best solution for the aging population problem would be like this: :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film)


Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Why waste something that can be recycled?

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:30 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
So perhaps the best solution for the aging population problem would be like this: :P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan%27s_Run_(film)


Or this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

Why waste something that can be recycled?

Talking about food security & sustainable food supply. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:42 am 
Systema Solare
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Salem Saberhagen wrote:
Perhaps another measure will be an increase of automation so less jobs have to be filled? Well I'm not the business expert, I hope people who are are tackling this.

Increasing automation will increase revenues of those in control of that automation, not of all people. At least as long as we live in a capitalistic society. If they have less workers remaining they will pay more to skilled workers who know how to control and program robots - certainly not feeding for free ever increasing amount of people who sit at home and whose job is now done by robots.


I thought my reference to automation implied an increase in socialism, with the robots being used to supply life necessities for increasingly cheap costs until it can be done for free, but I guess I could've been clearer.

And sure, it sounds like a fantasy... But there's no escaping a mostly elderly world. Sooner or later, and someone has to figure out how to make that work while the population recedes. That will likely involve major adjustments to how capitalism is carried out.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:48 am 
Galaxias
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Salem Saberhagen wrote:
I thought my reference to automation implied an increase in socialism, with the robots being used to supply life necessities for increasingly cheap costs until it can be done for free, but I guess I could've been clearer.

And sure, it sounds like a fantasy... But there's no escaping a mostly elderly world. Sooner or later, and someone has to figure out how to make that work while the population recedes. That will likely involve major adjustments to how capitalism is carried out.

Maybe it will sound unnecessary pessimistic, but if things become so bad as to require some radical solution, I suspect the forced euthanasia of all people above certain age will be a far more probable outcome than robots producing goods and then distributing them for free. Killing each other is something humans enjoy and have been doing since the beginning of time. Giving away their goods/wealth is something humans hate and will never do by their own will - at least the overwhelming majority of them.

After all, when it comes to not letting anything escape our hands without earning a few bucks from it, we don't hesitate to apply most radical solutions, but we still have no radical solution of any kind to save millions of kids dying from hunger every year across the globe. So it's not difficult to see what direction the humanity is moving to. And this direction is not socialism with free food for anybody, I'm afraid.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:34 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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^ And leaders like Stalin, Mao, etc. had tried implementing socialism in their respective countries & we know what it'd turned out to be. lol

BTW, current progress & discoveries in medical science & technology can lengthen human lifespan still further - from around 100 yrs. to 200 yrs., & some even suggest a max of about 1,000 yrs. :oh:

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:11 pm 
Systema Solare
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@ Rika: they tried to implement communism, you can have a few socialist policies without giving up capitalism completely.

@ Mara: I see your point. Dammit, I wasted all this time in college on the three R's when tomorrow's marketable skill is murder? Now I feel very cheated!

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:32 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Salem Saberhagen wrote:
@ Rika: they tried to implement communism, you can have a few socialist policies without giving up capitalism completely.

They're communists, yes, but the communist society is only the ultimate goal in Marxist theories - it's the final stage of socioeconomic evolution, according to those theories, & the socialist society is a transitional stage preceding that. Of course, Marxist socialism is very different from the socialism in many Western countries. lol BTW, the system in Mainland China is officially titled "socialism w/ Chinese characteristics," but in practice it's outright capitalism, in many aspects even more (ruthlessly) capitalistic than many Western capitalist countries. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 2:15 am 
Systema Solare
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It does appear that Marx's version of communism always seems to pick up something else along the way. Actually, I don't know enough about China even though I've visited, but I have trouble figuring out what part of the country actually resembles the goals Marx wrote about!

I don't know whether discussing my personal opinions on the communist manifesto (which I read for the first time a few months ago) would violate the forum rules on politics, but we've largely begin adapting certain features of it while rejecting others. So it's definitely not all or nothing.

@ Mara: Thinking about what you said, I don't think there would actually be a cull, but it seems possible or even probable that some governments would start quietly withdrawing support systems for the elderly and slowly bring a reverse to the increasing life expectancy... That would be very sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:39 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Salem Saberhagen wrote:
It does appear that Marx's version of communism always seems to pick up something else along the way. Actually, I don't know enough about China even though I've visited, but I have trouble figuring out what part of the country actually resembles the goals Marx wrote about!

The ultimate Marxist goal has never been realized anywhere in human history, & I doubt if it could ever be at all. lol

Quote:
@ Mara: Thinking about what you said, I don't think there would actually be a cull, but it seems possible or even probable that some governments would start quietly withdrawing support systems for the elderly and slowly bring a reverse to the increasing life expectancy... That would be very sad.

Or they could simply manipulate the govt. budget to produce the same or similar effects, w/o resorting to physically/legally turning off those systems, which'd look too dramatic & ugly. =^_^=

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:54 pm 
Systema Solare
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Yeah that's pretty much what I meant. They just slowly stop paying for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Salem Saberhagen wrote:
It does appear that Marx's version of communism always seems to pick up something else along the way. Actually, I don't know enough about China even though I've visited, but I have trouble figuring out what part of the country actually resembles the goals Marx wrote about!

The ultimate Marxist goal has never been realized anywhere in human history, & I doubt if it could ever be at all. lol

Quote:
@ Mara: Thinking about what you said, I don't think there would actually be a cull, but it seems possible or even probable that some governments would start quietly withdrawing support systems for the elderly and slowly bring a reverse to the increasing life expectancy... That would be very sad.

Or they could simply manipulate the govt. budget to produce the same or similar effects, w/o resorting to physically/legally turning off those systems, which'd look too dramatic & ugly. =^_^=


Now how did we have a conversation about communism? ;) But if you want to know why the ultimate goal of communism had not been achieved, its simple. Having a classless society with no government to regulate and order society is simply not possible in a large and complex modern nation-state. Outside of small tribal societies and various collectives, human nature will intervene when society reach a certain size and complexity. That always stop communist ideals in reality.

Of course, does that mean capitalism is really the ideal or end stage of human economic society? So far, no comparative economic and political system has had the same success of capitalism. But that does not mean capitalism must be the ultimate socioeconomic system we have to live with.


Last edited by Animefan on Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:46 pm 
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Animefan wrote:
But if you want to know why the ultimate goal of communism had not been achieved, its simple. Having a classless society with no government to regulate and order society is simply not possible in a large and complex modern nation-state. Outside of small tribal societies and various collectives, human nature will intervene when society reach a certain size and complexity.

Was there ever communism in tribal societies? If you are a chief (or his buddy) you will get the best women, best cave, best meat. Otherwise you will get whatever is left. Also, there always is a shaman/prophet who does nothing useful apart from singing his rain summon chants but in the end of the day will demand his share of meat/fruits brought by people who actually worked. What is this if not class society?

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:40 pm 
Luna Crescens
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Animefan wrote:
But if you want to know why the ultimate goal of communism had not been achieved, its simple. Having a classless society with no government to regulate and order society is simply not possible in a large and complex modern nation-state. Outside of small tribal societies and various collectives, human nature will intervene when society reach a certain size and complexity.

Was there ever communism in tribal societies? If you are a chief (or his buddy) you will get the best women, best cave, best meat. Otherwise you will get whatever is left. Also, there always is a shaman/prophet who does nothing useful apart from singing his rain summon chants but in the end of the day will demand his share of meat/fruits brought by people who actually worked. What is this if not class society?


Are all tribal societies the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:24 pm 
Galaxias
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Animefan wrote:
Are all tribal societies the same?

Are all modern states the same? No, they aren't. Some have socialist and even communist features, and the same is true for tribal societies.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:28 pm 
Luna Crescens
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Animefan wrote:
Are all tribal societies the same?

Are all modern states the same? No, they aren't. Some have socialist and even communist features, and the same is true for tribal societies.


No. You are missing the point.

Tribal societies, some of them anyway, has a closer proximation to communism then many so-called communist states. Not classless necessarily, but certainly not private property as we know it.


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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:57 pm 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Animefan wrote:
But if you want to know why the ultimate goal of communism had not been achieved, its simple. Having a classless society with no government to regulate and order society is simply not possible in a large and complex modern nation-state. Outside of small tribal societies and various collectives, human nature will intervene when society reach a certain size and complexity.

Was there ever communism in tribal societies? If you are a chief (or his buddy) you will get the best women, best cave, best meat. Otherwise you will get whatever is left. Also, there always is a shaman/prophet who does nothing useful apart from singing his rain summon chants but in the end of the day will demand his share of meat/fruits brought by people who actually worked. What is this if not class society?

BTW, classes also exist in the sociology of other primates & species, including canines & even birds, so it's not a human-exclusive/artificial thing, but a naturally evolved one, & might've already been reflected in the genes, which're somewhat like the firmwares in computers. lol

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:09 pm 
Galaxias
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Animefan wrote:
Tribal societies, some of them anyway, has a closer proximation to communism then many so-called communist states. Not classless necessarily, but certainly not private property as we know it.

I think they are closer to poverty, not to communism. When one's possessions are limited to a hut built from tree branches and whatever food they can find/catch in the nearest wood, there is not much room for development of advanced capitalism with sales managers and free markets. But that doesn't mean they reject the concepts of private property or social classes.

Rika-Chicchi wrote:
BTW, classes also exist in the sociology of other primates & species, including canines & even birds, so it's not a human-exclusive/artificial thing, but a naturally evolved one, & might've already been reflected in the genes, which're somewhat like the firmwares in computers. lol

Quite so. That's why building any possible future truly communist society will be impossible without some serious interference into human DNA and rewriting our basic instincts.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:45 am 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Animefan wrote:
Tribal societies, some of them anyway, has a closer proximation to communism then many so-called communist states. Not classless necessarily, but certainly not private property as we know it.

I think they are closer to poverty, not to communism. When one's possessions are limited to a hut built from tree branches and whatever food they can find/catch in the nearest wood, there is not much room for development of advanced capitalism with sales managers and free markets. But that doesn't mean they reject the concepts of private property or social classes.

Rika-Chicchi wrote:
BTW, classes also exist in the sociology of other primates & species, including canines & even birds, so it's not a human-exclusive/artificial thing, but a naturally evolved one, & might've already been reflected in the genes, which're somewhat like the firmwares in computers. lol

Quite so. That's why building any possible future truly communist society will be impossible without some serious interference into human DNA and rewriting our basic instincts.


Not necessarily mired in poverty or backward. Israel has kibbutz, collective farms that combine socialism with zionism. Granted, nowadays, many kibbutz have been privatized, but many also still retain that collective work and property sharing arrangement.

But if you go beyond that kibbutz-level, it will not work. Society becomes too complex for a collective arrangement.


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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:47 am 
Luna Crescens
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Maraviollantes wrote:
Animefan wrote:
But if you want to know why the ultimate goal of communism had not been achieved, its simple. Having a classless society with no government to regulate and order society is simply not possible in a large and complex modern nation-state. Outside of small tribal societies and various collectives, human nature will intervene when society reach a certain size and complexity.

Was there ever communism in tribal societies? If you are a chief (or his buddy) you will get the best women, best cave, best meat. Otherwise you will get whatever is left. Also, there always is a shaman/prophet who does nothing useful apart from singing his rain summon chants but in the end of the day will demand his share of meat/fruits brought by people who actually worked. What is this if not class society?

BTW, classes also exist in the sociology of other primates & species, including canines & even birds, so it's not a human-exclusive/artificial thing, but a naturally evolved one, & might've already been reflected in the genes, which're somewhat like the firmwares in computers. lol


There is one big distinction though. Animals are slaves to their instincts. A few rare exceptions aside, animals cannot overcome their biological instincts and their lives are basically determined by it. Not so for humans.


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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:54 pm 
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^ It's just a matter of degree regarding that for both humans & some animals, as both can, for particular goals, overcome some of their instincts to a certain extent & for a certain length of time.

But let's get back to the topic now. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:02 pm 
Galaxias
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
^ It's just a matter of degree regarding that for both humans & some animals, as both can, for particular goals, overcome some of their instincts to a certain extent & for a certain length of time.

Those particular goals are usually set by other, higher priority instincts. E.g., in a dangerous situation many people can "overcome" their basic instinct for survival and sacrifice their life to save other people (especially if those are young women and children, fit for future procreation) - but only because survival of a group has a higher evolutionary priority than survival of any particular individual, and thus that sacrificing mechanism exists in our DNA alongside with all other instincts.

Rika-Chicchi wrote:
But let's get back to the topic now. :)

Japan's population was in crisis fifty years ago, and it still will be in crisis in a few hundred years from now. I don't think there is any reason to worry about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:38 pm 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
^ It's just a matter of degree regarding that for both humans & some animals, as both can, for particular goals, overcome some of their instincts to a certain extent & for a certain length of time.

Those particular goals are usually set by other, higher priority instincts. E.g., in a dangerous situation many people can "overcome" their basic instinct for survival and sacrifice their life to save other people (especially if those are young women and children, fit for future procreation) - but only because survival of a group has a higher evolutionary priority than survival of any particular individual, and thus that sacrificing mechanism exists in our DNA alongside with all other instincts.

That's the "altruist instinct." :) And in a sense, even the higher elements of human civilization, such as science, philosophy, ethics, arts, etc., can all be traced back to instincts, as the former are transcended from the latter.

Quote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
But let's get back to the topic now. :)

Japan's population was in crisis fifty years ago, and it still will be in crisis in a few hundred years from now. I don't think there is any reason to worry about it.

The problem seems to have worsened in an increasing speed in the recent years, tho, & such pace can be expected to be further quickened in due course, unless something effective is to be done about it in time.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:41 am 
Luna Crescens
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
^ It's just a matter of degree regarding that for both humans & some animals, as both can, for particular goals, overcome some of their instincts to a certain extent & for a certain length of time.

But let's get back to the topic now. :)


Well, there is still a huge difference though between humans and animals. Some animals may go against instincts under certain condition, but that is the exception, not the rule.

Humans, because of their ability to grasp higher order thinking, not only can they more easily go against their instincts but also develop thinking and theories that go against what their senses tell them. Time is not linear, despite what our everyday concept of time tell us. Likewise, the theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics reject many of our common assumptions of what the world is like based on our senses. We can only do that if we overcome our instincts regularly.


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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:40 pm 
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Animefan wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
^ It's just a matter of degree regarding that for both humans & some animals, as both can, for particular goals, overcome some of their instincts to a certain extent & for a certain length of time.

But let's get back to the topic now. :)


Well, there is still a huge difference though between humans and animals. Some animals may go against instincts under certain condition, but that is the exception, not the rule.

Humans, because of their ability to grasp higher order thinking, not only can they more easily go against their instincts but also develop thinking and theories that go against what their senses tell them. Time is not linear, despite what our everyday concept of time tell us. Likewise, the theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics reject many of our common assumptions of what the world is like based on our senses. We can only do that if we overcome our instincts regularly.

There're (many) differences between humans & other species, of course, lol but I see them all in relative terms only - as I've said above, it's a matter of degree (which's already implied that there's still an inter-species difference, BTW).

I hope the Japanese govt. & people could sort out a way to reverse the current demographic trend in due course, since a rapidly shrinking population not only affects a nation's economy, but its many other aspects as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:53 pm 
Galaxias
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
I hope the Japanese govt. & people could sort out a way to reverse the current demographic trend in due course, since a rapidly shrinking population not only affects a nation's economy, but its many other aspects as well.

They always can hand out Japanese citizenship to animu fans willing to move to Japan and easily double their population in a few years. P-:

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:04 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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^ Oh yeah! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:54 pm 
Usagi's Rose
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^ I'd volunteer for that :mischief:

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:10 am 
Luna Crescens
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Animefan wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
^ It's just a matter of degree regarding that for both humans & some animals, as both can, for particular goals, overcome some of their instincts to a certain extent & for a certain length of time.

But let's get back to the topic now. :)


Well, there is still a huge difference though between humans and animals. Some animals may go against instincts under certain condition, but that is the exception, not the rule.

Humans, because of their ability to grasp higher order thinking, not only can they more easily go against their instincts but also develop thinking and theories that go against what their senses tell them. Time is not linear, despite what our everyday concept of time tell us. Likewise, the theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics reject many of our common assumptions of what the world is like based on our senses. We can only do that if we overcome our instincts regularly.

There're (many) differences between humans & other species, of course, lol but I see them all in relative terms only - as I've said above, it's a matter of degree (which's already implied that there's still an inter-species difference, BTW).

I hope the Japanese govt. & people could sort out a way to reverse the current demographic trend in due course, since a rapidly shrinking population not only affects a nation's economy, but its many other aspects as well.


Of course, it is a matter of degree, but that degree is HUGE between humans and other animals. Humans can't be compared to other animals when it comes to overcoming instincts.

As for reversing the demographic changes? Sadly, don't count on it. Old habits die hard. The news are reporting that "karoshi" compensation claims is at record level in Japan. That means, Japanese employers are still literally working many Japanese workers to death. That means many still don't have time to make babies. Combined that with strict immigration rules, and the demographic trends are not looking good.

Btw, this is not limited to Japan. South Korea and China also facing an ageing problem. In China's case, they recently ended their one child policy, but families over there are not eager to have more than one kid, so the ageing trend continues.


Last edited by Animefan on Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Japan's population in crisis
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:47 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Animefan wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Animefan wrote:
Well, there is still a huge difference though between humans and animals. Some animals may go against instincts under certain condition, but that is the exception, not the rule.

Humans, because of their ability to grasp higher order thinking, not only can they more easily go against their instincts but also develop thinking and theories that go against what their senses tell them. Time is not linear, despite what our everyday concept of time tell us. Likewise, the theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics reject many of our common assumptions of what the world is like based on our senses. We can only do that if we overcome our instincts regularly.

There're (many) differences between humans & other species, of course, lol but I see them all in relative terms only - as I've said above, it's a matter of degree (which's already implied that there's still an inter-species difference, BTW).

I hope the Japanese govt. & people could sort out a way to reverse the current demographic trend in due course, since a rapidly shrinking population not only affects a nation's economy, but its many other aspects as well.


Of course, it is a matter of degree, but that degree is HUGE between humans and other animals. Humans can't be compared to other animals when it comes to overcoming instincts.

My point is that such inter-species differences shouldn't be seen in absolute terms, & whether they're huge or tiny is also relative - say, to a hypothetical ultra-advanced, god-like (that is, from our POV) extraterrestrial species, the differences between humans & some other animals would look pretty minimal/trivial. lol

Quote:
As for reversing the demographic changes? Sadly, don't count on it. Old habits die hard. The news are reporting that "karoshi" compensation claims is at record level in Japan. That means, Japanese employers are still literally many Japanese workers to death. That means many still don't have time to make babies. Combined that with strict immigration rules, and the demographic trends are not looking good.

That's also why I said "I hope." :wink:

Quote:
Btw, this is not limited to Japan. South Korea and China also facing an ageing problem. In China's case, they recently ended their one child policy, but families over there are not eager to have more than one kid, so the ageing trend continues.

Agreed, it seems to be a universal developmental phenomenon, & some time in the future even India could face the same problem, & then the African countries, too.

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