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 Post subject: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:51 am 
Luna Crescens
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Why are Chibiusa and Hotaru portrayed as naked together in the opening of the third season of crystal? Also since Hotaru says to her in Crystal and the manga that they were destined to meet by fate even though they are girls does that imply them to be lesbians or bisexual?


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:36 am 
Systema Solare
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Did they say "we were destined to meet, even though we're girls"? I don't remember that scene.

It definitely seemed like the director wanted them together.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:39 am 
Luna
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Salem Saberhagen wrote:
Did they say "we were destined to meet, even though we're girls"? I don't remember that scene.

It definitely seemed like the director wanted them together.

Hotaru says that right before she disappears infront of Mamoru and Chibiusa.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:46 am 
Luna
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No, they're just BFFs who changed each other's lives. If they intended for Hotaru and Chibiusa to be a couple, they would've tied a red string around their fingers.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:51 am 
Planeta
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There's a scene in the manga in which Usagi is seen angry because Chibiusa and Hotaru are either holding hands or are "too close." Can someone find the page and post it?

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:12 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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BFF or les, or somewhere inbetween - I think that's just a matter of personal interpretation (it could even be intentionally left ambiguous by the production staff, so that the audience could have room for various interpretations). :)

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:19 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Probably no, I don't think they were implying them being a couple .


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:30 pm 
Solaris Luna
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I wouldn't say they're a couple, but I do think the nature of their feelings for each other are intentionally left open-ended. And I say this as someone who didn't even go into Crystal shipping them.


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:10 pm 
Solaris Luna
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They are in love and coming to snatch Haruka and Michiru's lesbian weaves!

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:04 am 
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Shouldn't this thread be in the Crystal subforum? :o

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:02 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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Nope not at all, I still get that best friend and sisterly love & bond from Chibiusa and Hotaru, nothing romantic at all.

And lets not forget that in Crystal and the manga, they were each other's first ever best friends in the past, especially for Hotaru who was a loner and did not socialise or associated with the outside world before she met Chibiusa, so for Hotaru especially, befriending Chibiusa was a huge deal for her and it's not surprising that Chibiusa is so special to her for that reason. But I don't think she is necessarily "IN love" with Chibiusa, to me she definitely loves Chibiusa but as a very close friend and maybe even like a little sister. With Chibiusa, although she was already close friends with Sailor Pluto in the future, and became friends with the Inner Senshis when she came to the past, before she met Hotaru, but they are her friends mainly by association because they are Usagi's friends. If Chibiusa were not Usagi's future daughter and not Sailor Chibimoon, then I doubt she would've become friends with the Inner senshis. Hotaru was really the first ever real friend Chibiusa had befriended all by herself when she came to the past, and it was not because of Usagi, so for that reason, of course Hotaru is special to Chibiusa too, they have this very strong and special bond, but I don't think it is romantic at all. The close friendship between Chibiusa and Hotaru is very reminiscent and similar to Chibiusa's close friendship and bond with Sailor Pluto I think, Pluto is very much like a big sister or an aunty to Chibiusa as well as her close friend. Chibiusa is very close to both Hotaru and Setsuna/Pluto.

I suppose everyone can interpret things differently, but to me personally, it's obvious the bond between Chibiusa and Hotaru is just platonic.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:34 am 
Luna Crescens
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Clow wrote:
There's a scene in the manga in which Usagi is seen angry because Chibiusa and Hotaru are either holding hands or are "too close." Can someone find the page and post it?

This one? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:40 am 
Luna Nova
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Well... I think in all instalments of Sailor Moon they are not going to be anything different than besties. While I draw my opinion mostly based on the 90's anime, and to lesser degree the manga (I'm loosely familiar with it)

But somehow, the character of Hotaru (again in all instalments of the story), looks like she was meant to form a romantic relationship with Chibiusa, yet it seems Naoko scrapped this concept somewhere before the development of the Dream arc/Super S. And while some traces of it still remain, I doubt we will see such a development as canon.

What we have here is a typical example of "opposites attract". Each one of them has what the other one is missing and balances what the other has in extreme, thus forming a possibly very harmonic couple. I do not think Hotaru was created like this accidentally. It was on purpose. And at some point the romantic relationship was about to happen. Yet something made Naoko to give up on this pairing and move on. It happens very often when a long series is written, no matter is it a novel, a comiv or a tv show, and I can imagine at lest three serious reasons, while perhaps none of them is the true or main one. So she brought in Helios, thus ending the possibility of Chibiusa x Hotaru romance. And following this development, even if this romance was initially meant to happen, that I believe is highly probable... it is not going to happen.

We can still imagine it though.


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:03 pm 
Solaris Luna
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"They're just really close like sisters because they were each other's first friends"

Right. Hotaru was Chibiusa's first ever friend. Except for Pluto. And Momoko. And Kyuusuke. And all the other kids in her class. She may not have been best friends forever with all of them, but Momoko is certainly her Naru.

Now it's true that Chibiusa is likely Hotaru's first real friend, but maybe that's why her feelings became something more intense than platonic love, perhaps developing into romantic love.

Are Chibiusa and Hotaru a romantic couple? No. Are Chibiusa and Hotaru just friends? No. There's no definitive answer to what exactly the nature of their relationship is in the manga, and it's a bit too early to tell in Crystal (though, in my opinion, they seem to be heading towards "romantic couple").

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:24 pm 
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NeoQueenSerenity18 wrote:
Shouldn't this thread be in the Crystal subforum? :o

Yes, & I've overlooked that. ^_^'

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:44 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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I personally still very much doubt there's anything "romantic" between Chibiusa & Hotaru, and all those so called "hints" that some people have mentioned that seem to suggest that their relationship might be "romantic" I have done it many times with many of my female friends too. Holding hands is nothing, I used to hold hands with many of my female friends all the time when I was in high school and we still do sometimes even as adults, and we did a lot of things together that others might think are "too intimate", apart from holding hands, some of my female friends and I also used to have slumber parties together often and some of us would sleep on the same bed together. I also have a childhood friend whom I am especially close to and we've done many things together growing up, we used to hold hands all the time when we were kids and we still do sometimes, we used to sleep on the same bed together often in the past too before she got married, we even took baths together sometimes, we are that close and I was even her maid-of-honor at her wedding last year, we are very much like sisters. All these things we did and do together don't necessarily mean there's anything "romantic" between us, sometimes when 2 people are just very close friends, they feel comfortable doing such things together that other people might see as "too intimate" even when the relationship is just platonic. I am merely very close to many of my female friends that we just feel comfortable doing all these sorts of "intimate" things together because we're like sisters, believe me, some of the things my gal pals and I have done together are a lot more "intimate" than Chibiusa & Hotaru have ever done together. Has any of you here ever heard of "boob slapping"? My gal pals and I used to do that to each other often when we were in high school too :D
It's one of the main reasons why I'm still very skeptical about Chibiusa & Hotaru's relationship being anything other than platonic, their relationship just seems so much like the close friendship I have with my childhood bestfriend and some of my other close female friends. Another reason is because it's also very similar to Chibiusa's close friendship with Sailor Pluto...luckily no one seems to think there was anything "romantic" between Chibiusa & Pluto too! ^_^' And even in the original manga and the 90s anime, Chibiusa's bond with Hotaru was always shown to be merely platonic friendship and maybe even sisterly love, the only character that Chibiusa was ever romantically linked with that was canon in the manga and 90s anime was Pegasus/Helios. And if Crystal continues to remain faithful to the manga, which I know they most likely would, Chibiusa's relationship with Hotaru would probably continue to be merely platonic. I think once they get into the Dream arc and Pegasus appears, things would be different.

But it's to be expected for some people to interpret things differently, personally I am still very skeptical and it's obvious to me that their relationship is merely just platonic, but that's just my personal interpretation of their relationship. If other people interpret their relationship as "romantic", well that's their own opinion.
We can only wait and see what happens and see what the writers will do with their friendship from now on...I suppose it's still possible for them to take their friendship in a more romantic route in the future, but I personally would not bet on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:58 pm 
Lumen Cinereum
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It is simply like mother like daughter. We have seen Usagi be attractive to her guardians as well.

Still reguardless, as far as chemistry with Chibiusa, I take Hotaru over Helios any day of the week.


Last edited by zttmoon on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:25 am 
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Western and Eastern cultures are a bit different. The west views intimacy differently and are more prone to separating/ distancing the intimacy between same gender friends, especially in the recent century (totally apart from the LGBT community). There's a little more of a restraint on expressing emotions also, which I believe is part of the cause. Of course, plenty of exceptions to this rule exist, but it's not as prevelant here as in the eastern countries like Japan.

It's more like Sailor Linda described. Many girls-- especially younger girls, at least in the west-- who are close friends are very close and intimate in their relationships and think nothing of hugging and touching, even kissing on the cheeks, helping out with bra fittings, even hanging out and chatting in the bathroom while one of them is "doing her business". The west has a bit of tendancy to equate touching, familiarity, and intimacy as being sexual in some way when that's really not necessary. This same mindset easily crosses over into "sexual harrassment" territory, where people throw accusations almost at the drop of a hat (usually between male and female, though not strictly). This is a growing issue in places like Japan as well, at least nowadays (although I think I read recently it's been improving slightly).

Anyway, the point is that "reflex" to read romance into their relationship is largely ingrained into us by our culture. When Hotaru made that comment about holding hands to Usagi, she was pointing out her hypocricy. Usagi becomes easily jealous and irritated over Chibi Usa, and she doesn't even always need a legitimate reason to. Hotaru is basically saying "You do you, and I'll do me, okay?"

The comment about their destined meeting, I think, is basically in contrast to, say, Usagi and Mamoru. If you read stories from Japan about people being destined to meet, they're in the sense of a male/ female romantic relationship (like the "red thread of destiny"). Hotaru is saying that their situation is just like that concept of destiny. Remember that Hotaru sacrificed herself completely to save and protect Chibi Usa, another fairly common theme in such destined meetings. This is a chance to show another example of true love, proving that it doesn't have to be romantic to be true. There are multiple themes of true love in the Sailor Moon universe, and they are not strictly limited to romance.

So ultimately, I believe these girls have such a close bond of friendship that they're just like close sisters. Imagine if you sacrificed your very life and soul in order to save your only friend in the world-- but then you were reunited with her shortly afterwards. You'd be super-close to that person too, never wanting to let her go.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:03 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Yes - and - no. I happen to agree with Sailor Linda and TS Sailor Cronus. Whether Chibi-Usa and Hotaru's relationship is platonic or romantic, this is all interpretation. Culture is another thing that comes into play.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:48 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Whether it was Naoko's intent or not, I definitely think Crystal at least is heavily shipping Hotaru and Chibiusa. The big giveaway to me is the opening credit animation which shows Chibiusa and Hotaru embracing each other in a way that is a very overt homage to the Utena opening theme which is a series that is more obvious about queer themes especially in the movie. Season three in general seems to heavily be paying homage to Utena and I don't think the intentions here are all entirely coincidental.


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:29 am 
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danilushk wrote:
Clow wrote:
There's a scene in the manga in which Usagi is seen angry because Chibiusa and Hotaru are either holding hands or are "too close." Can someone find the page and post it?

This one? ;)


Yeah, I never understood that scene from the manga. Why would Usagi get upset? Because Chibiusa and Hotaru were holding hands?

And there is even an implied comparison there: Chibiusa and Hotaru hold hands much in the same way that Usagi and Mamoru do.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Mamoru had flown off to America and she hadn't heard back from him, so she was feeling lonely and grumpy. Seeing Chibiusa and Hotaru being all happy and holding hands set her off. Which, to me, especially coupled with Hotaru's remark, is pretty indicative of Chibiusa and Hotaru being more than friends.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:26 pm 
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If Hotaru was a guy, there would be no debate about whether they're friends or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Hotaru and Chibi-Usa are close friends. There are places were even males hold hands like in India. It's all platonic. I haven't seen Hotaru or Chibi-Usa express anything beyond a strong sister-ship. I've even asked a few girls about and they don't see the "romance". When I first saw Crystal opening, I thought that they were implying it from one shot. I didn't know if it represented their purity or what? But I think now they are just inseparable friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Seira Hazuki wrote:
If Hotaru was a guy, there would be no debate about whether they're friends or not.


There might be. Guys and girls can be friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Seira Hazuki wrote:
If Hotaru was a guy, there would be no debate about whether they're friends or not.


That's what I'm talking about. In our culture people are so fast to equate closeness and touching to romance when there is more to look for in such relationships. And sadly if one of them was male not as many people would be debating, because not as many people are accepting of close non-romantic male- female relationships.

Don't forget that once again, women and girls are generally more at liberty to develop such levels of non-romantic closeness than other pairings.

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:47 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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TS Sailor Cronus wrote:
That's what I'm talking about. In our culture people are so fast to equate closeness and touching to romance when there is more to look for in such relationships. And sadly if one of them was male not as many people would be debating, because not as many people are accepting of close non-romantic male- female relationships.

Don't forget that once again, women and girls are generally more at liberty to develop such levels of non-romantic closeness than other pairings.


Another good post. I like the way you think. Closeness does not necessarily equate romance in any gender pair-up.


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:17 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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TS Sailor Cronus wrote:
That's what I'm talking about. In our culture people are so fast to equate closeness and touching to romance when there is more to look for in such relationships. And sadly if one of them was male not as many people would be debating, because not as many people are accepting of close non-romantic male- female relationships.

Don't forget that once again, women and girls are generally more at liberty to develop such levels of non-romantic closeness than other pairings.
That's because we live in a society where LGBTQ characters in fiction are still widely under-represented, especially in the medium of animation. Even now in 2017, you still have anime fans arguing just how canonical is Victor and Yuri's relationship is in Yuri on Ice and a lot of fans on both sides of the argument making the same type of arguments you're seeing here in this thread. Then you do have historical instances where a character was closeted during the show itself or didn't come out until the end or the author outed them after the conclusion like Dumbledore in Harry Potter and The Legend of Korra more recently. In the case of Chibiusa and Hotaru, we have no official confirmations from Naoko either way, both interpretation claim to have "evidence" backing their side up, but until Naoko gets asked about it in an interview or something, neither side is going to be more correct than the other, and it's all interpretive. i would be curious to see what Japanese fandom thinks of this pairing and how it was portrayed in Crystal. But while I do agree that it's important to keep Japanese culture in mind, I'm not sure I agree that one culture's interpretation is more definitive than the other, given how much of a world wide phenomena Sailor Moon is, and given how much Sailor Moon itself draws inspirations from many cultures.


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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:56 am 
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[quote but until Naoko gets asked about it in an interview or something, neither side is going to be more correct than the other, and it's all interpretive][/quote]

This. This right here, and I keep forgetting to say anything about it.

I think it's worth mentioning that in "closeted" examples, there usually aren't ANY other characters that are homosexual or anything. I don't know anything about Korra, but I do know about Dumbledore, and HP never featured homisexuals anywhere, at least no more overtly than DD himself. Buuut... in Sailor Moon, we have definite confirmation that Ura-Nep are homosexual, and at least in the older anime they featured a few others, long before Ura-Nep made any appearance. It would seem strange not to be open about throwing in another pair that way.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Chibi Usa is clearly intended for Helios, as finding her own prince was a big deal to her, and Helios promised he would wait for her and see her again. I just don't see her breaking that so soon, and I can't see Hotaru being such an unfaithful friend as to get in the way of that.

Also, I have COMPLETELY forgotten to address the very first question regaurding the nude shot of them. That's actually a common form of art in Japan, and there's a name for it. It's a way of showing the closeness of girls/ women, and is not intended to have lesbian undertones (not that it excludes such tones). I wish I could remember what it's called though. >_<; Aarrghhh!

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 Post subject: Re: Were Hotaru and Chibiusa implied to a be couple in crystal?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:34 am 
Luna Crescens
Luna Crescens
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
BFF or les, or somewhere inbetween - I think that's just a matter of personal interpretation (it could even be intentionally left ambiguous by the production staff, so that the audience could have room for various interpretations). :)


This is what I think too. :P

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