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 Post subject: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:35 pm 
Solaris Luna
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One of the more interesting, if not funny, criticisms of Sailor Moon Crystal is the lack of filler episodes compared to the 90s Anime. In adapting the original Manga more faithfully (well, 90% of the time), SMC presents a more streamlined series with no episode that isn't relevant to the overarching storylines. People who grew up on the old Anime feel like the classic filler episodes allowed us to get to know the character better bit by bit whether with or without plot relevance and that Crystal is lacking that little something.

As as fan of certain other TV shows, this seems to be the reverse with many filler episodes being regarded as a waste of time or boring. To be specific, an episode of Steven Universe was aired recently and not too many people are happy that it was about a nerdy side character rather than Steven's adventures IN SPACE or stuff about the Gems or that Bloodstone CN teased about (really, I had my eyebrow raised from day one). It's hardly the only show to be derided for filler but I'd hate to take up your entire year.

Of course, it's pretty simple math. We who grew up on Sailor Moon can rewatch the show while appreciating the filler and added character building while knowing just where things are going to end up. For other shows that are in progress, we tend to get a little, erm, impatient to put it nicely.

Honestly, I can see Sailor Moon Crystal being a good introduction to potential new fans who aren't exactly fond of constant Monster of the Day formulas and want a plot that can get to the point faster. They can even go back to the 90s Anime to see how the first adaptation was handled, knowing a bit more about where things are going.

But that's just how I view things.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:17 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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I think the big issue with Crystal is that the first season is trying to do too many things at once. They want to expand on the manga with an original story arc about the Generals while also wanting to be faithful to the manga, but there's not enough time to do both at once in a 14 episode arc. I think if they just cut out the Generals subplot and kept more of the funny faces and interactions between the Inners, I think season one would have been better received. I also think adapting the side story specials would have been sufficient enough filler in to expand on the characters with and they missed an opportunity to adapt Casablanca Memories during the Dark Kingdom arc.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:39 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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The difference is that Crystal is very story-driven and is mainly focused on the story-telling, rather than the character-building, which is one of the main reasons why it is so short without all those fillers that the 90s anime had. And it's really a double-edge sword, while it's good that Crystal wants to remain faithful to the manga and focus more on the story-telling, but at the same time they are sacrificing fillers which could potentially be used to flesh out the characters more and give them more character development. While I enjoy the storytelling, but I think the character development is just as important as the storytelling. Without character development, these characters would just be very one-dimensional and it would be more difficult for the audience to grow attached to these characters. We care about these characters in the 90s anime because they were given plenty of character development in the 90s anime and it made them more likable and relatable. But with the lack of character-driven episodes in Crystal, especially in the first season, a lot of fans were finding it difficult to care about the characters.

While I do think that some fillers are just a complete waste of time and not necessary at all, but there were still SOME "fillers" in the 90s anime that were at least character-driven and helped to flesh out the characters more, I personally would not consider these types of eps to be "complete" fillers if they help with character development. And it's these types of character-driven "fillers" that I think Crystal should have more of. Of course I don't want TOO much fillers in Crystal, that's one of the main problems with the 90s anime, it had too many unnecessary fillers and that dragged the series out for much too long. But just having a few more character-driven "fillers" once in a while in Crystal certainly would not hurt and would actually help flesh out the characters a bit more. This is something that both the 90s anime and PGSM did a better job of; the character development.
The problem with the 90s anime is that it had much too many filler eps that were totally unnecessary and made the series very draggy and long. While Crystal's problem is that it does not have enough of these character-driven eps hence it's too short.

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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:40 pm 
Luna
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unlike most fans,i really do like fillers in 90s animes :love: i loved those crit-chats at the temple and sometimes at cafes...maybe that's why i dislike crystal so much.crystal really lacks fillers,everything is happening so fast..

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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:44 pm 
Solaris Luna
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I like the filler in the 90s anime too. I like Crystal but it could have used a little padding in the series. Maybe starting the series off with a few episodes of Code Name Sailor V then transition into the Dark Kingdom Arc? Also add in the appropriate side stories and ax the Shitennou love thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:32 pm 
Luna Nova
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I don't thing Crystal with filler is bad, but that doesn't mean Toei must go with filler. Filler mean dragging, and it will expand the series. Toei have already show us that they will conclude each arc in each season, which mean 13-14 ep for 1 arc. Well i don't hope for a series of filler =.=


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:42 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Maybe a season entirely comprised of fillers, i.e. the side stories, Parallel Sailor Moon, etc. & even original new fillers by Toei/Takeuchi? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:58 pm 
Solaris Luna
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SailorLinda1 wrote:
The problem with the 90s anime is that it had much too many filler eps that were totally unnecessary and made the series very draggy and long. While Crystal's problem is that it does not have enough of these character-driven eps hence it's too short.

I certainly see your point. However, my original post was talking about how interesting it is that Crystal is criticized for its lack of filler while other shows like Steven Universe or RWBY are criticized for their "filler" whether or not they're good character-driven stories.

Of course, for the latter case, this is because said shows are in progress of being aired week by week (usually) and the hype combined with the inherent impatience of fans leads to us having specific expectations of the show.

It's only when we're able to rewatch a TV show in retrospect that we are able to appreciate all the filler episodes for all they're worth and thus is the case with Sailor Moon as we know where things are going and we know how things are going to turn out.

I guess I was thinking about how if Sailor Moon was adapted the same way it was in the nineties in today's digital age, we wouldn't exactly have the patience we have now with the monster of the day formulas. We're more forgiving because we both grew up on it and we're not waiting for each individual episodes, especially with Viz's releases.

I'm certainly not going to act like Crystal didn't do anything wrong. I'll say that the Four Heavenly Kings subplot was a fairly interesting attempt at adapting a plot point that Codename Sailor V heavily hinted at but it only ended with all of them being stabbed in the back by Metallia so soon. A case of "good idea, lackluster execution" syndrome.

In defense with the Manga's character development, we see each arc the characters go through over the course of all five sagas rather than small episodes that show the development bit by bit to pad out the seasons.

Perhaps what would've been best is if all 26 episodes were for the Dark Kingdom arc exclusively and they left the Black Moon arc for a potential Season 2 if Crystal panned out. This would've allowed breathing room for the Manga material while extra material could've been written exclusively. Similar to PGSM but more faithful to the Manga nonetheless. Hell, potential filler aside, I always wondered why they adapted two arcs for one whole season to begin with. Did they ever make a statement about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:12 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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SailorLinda1 wrote:
Without character development, these characters would just be very one-dimensional and it would be more difficult for the audience to grow attached to these characters. We care about these characters in the 90s anime because they were given plenty of character development in the 90s anime and it made them more likable and relatable. But with the lack of character-driven episodes in Crystal, especially in the first season, a lot of fans were finding it difficult to care about the characters.

I feel like though this is a bit of a generational gap with the fandom. At least to me it seems like it's mostly among older fans who grew up with the 90s anime that complain about the lack of filler-in. But I've seen plenty of instances where younger anime fans who didn't grow up with the original watched Crystal first really enjoy Crystal a lot more than a lot of old time fans do. On the other hand, a common complaint I see from fans who are watching the 90s anime for the first time that didn't grow up with it is just how slow the first season is and how whiny Usagi is in the early episodes.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:30 pm 
Solaris Luna
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My biggest problem with Crystal was the manga-to-anime changes, rather than the lack of filler. The poor execution of the Four Heavenly Kings subplot, making the Inners collapse in defeat more often than they did in the manga, Beryl's necklace, etc. being some of the worst offenders. Fortunately, I haven't had issues of that level since season 2 rolled around. But it does make season 1 difficult to rewatch.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:07 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Personally I enjoy dark kingdom arc ( I agree the senshoi x shitenou sublyt could been handel better ) and when I watch Crystal it seems like a giant movie . Like in the maga felt like a big story . I guess the reason face pace storytelling didn't bother me . Was that i never grew up with the series . ( The same way most people did) . As in I first saw sailor moon when I was 13 online . And the show was already done . So whe I fist see n the show I like it , but I was sick of the filler.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:15 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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I mean Season 1 and Season 2 were already dragged out by their ridiculous schedule (twice a month is still the most ridiculous thing to have happened to Crystal). If they had done a weekly series of 26 episodes for season 1 and season 2, it would have ran for the same amount of time (Summer 2014 - Summer 2014), but with more content and maybe less of the problems people have complained about. So it's weird to see people talk about their lack of patience with filler, when you'd sometimes end up waiting a grand total of three weeks for a mediocre Crystal episode.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:06 pm 
Solaris Luna
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The Blizzard Prince wrote:
Beryl's necklace,

Is there any word on this sort of censorship? I mean, I get that the main character stabbing herself would've been hard to stomach even for older viewers but this is still weird. Did anybody talk about it?


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:10 pm 
Solaris Luna
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The Blizzard Prince wrote:
My biggest problem with Crystal was the manga-to-anime changes, rather than the lack of filler. The poor execution of the Four Heavenly Kings subplot, making the Inners collapse in defeat more often than they did in the manga, Beryl's necklace, etc. being some of the worst offenders. Fortunately, I haven't had issues of that level since season 2 rolled around. But it does make season 1 difficult to rewatch.


Agreed. I think the big appeal for Crystal was "Hey! It's just like the manga!" then they went and made... somewhat drastic changes from the source material. Stripping the girls' personalities in the first season and eliminating the humor was also a major bummer.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:22 pm 
Solaris Luna
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Umino wrote:
Stripping the girls' personalities in the first season and eliminating the humor was also a major bummer.

The humor was largely there for me but the animation didn't really convey the goofy art of the Manga with said comedic moments.

I suppose that was on the Animation director's part at the time and I can see how they wanted to try a more... grounded approach. I will say that the inclusion of more expressive, cartoony animation like Usagi and Chibiusa's bickering was a better call. Season 3 sorta feel like the animation staff got more comfortable with the show as well as the direction, giving us what seems to be Crystal's ultimate form.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:09 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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The Blizzard Prince wrote:
My biggest problem with Crystal was the manga-to-anime changes, rather than the lack of filler. The poor execution of the Four Heavenly Kings subplot, making the Inners collapse in defeat more often than they did in the manga, Beryl's necklace, etc. being some of the worst offenders. Fortunately, I haven't had issues of that level since season 2 rolled around. But it does make season 1 difficult to rewatch.
i was also disappointed they cut out the part about Motoki finding out about the Inners' identities and they completely cut out Unazuki's character in Crystal.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:43 am 
Solaris Luna
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Neon Genesis wrote:
i was also disappointed they cut out the part about Motoki finding out about the Inners' identities and they completely cut out Unazuki's character in Crystal.

Yeah, I get that they were downplay on account of them being very minor characters. On the other hand, it would've been cool to see him react to MASSIVE COMMAND CENTER WITHIN HIS ARCADE!


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:28 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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And I just always thought it was neat that in the manga, someone outside of their group found out about their secret because that never happened in the original anime.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:53 am 
Solaris Luna
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matt0044 wrote:
Is there any word on this sort of censorship? I mean, I get that the main character stabbing herself would've been hard to stomach even for older viewers but this is still weird. Did anybody talk about it?

Not that I know of. I wish they would have opted to censor it another way, like removing blood or showing it from a distance. The necklace bit made the scene unintentionally amusing. :lol:

Umino wrote:
Agreed. I think the big appeal for Crystal was "Hey! It's just like the manga!" then they went and made... somewhat drastic changes from the source material. Stripping the girls' personalities in the first season and eliminating the humor was also a major bummer.

Exactly! I managed my expectations not expecting more than a chapter for chapter adaptation, and was still let down. Thank goodness the show got better about that once season 2 rolled around.

Neon Genesis wrote:
i was also disappointed they cut out the part about Motoki finding out about the Inners' identities and they completely cut out Unazuki's character in Crystal.

I was disappointed by those changes as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:36 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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Seems people often dont understand why the manga and the 90s anime were what they were. Both stories coexisted in a very tight relationship. Anime existed thanks to the manga, the manga was created with anime in mind and was continued because of the anime popularity.

In short: Naoko had about a year for an arc with chapters released monthly - so Naoko really couldnt allow herself to do fillers even if she wanted to.
90s anime team had a year to do a season with episodes going out weekly so they had no other choice - they had to do fillers

Interestingly enough both sides proved they can do the opposite. All the side stories Naoko did are loose fillers, very much in 90s anime style. Even the SM "parent story" Sailor V is like 90% filler heavy. Toei on the other hand showed they can do the anime without fillers in the Stars season. The first 6 episodes are basically one story without any single filler episode. They proved they can keep it short, sweet, interesting and even managed to do some characterization for each character which is very cool.

But thats the past. Both versions were made at the same time and we have to take them with their flaws because that was the time when they were created, Naoko and Toei didnt really have much time to look back or take their time.


Now they do. Its been over 20 years.

Of course manga and Crystal still work just fine if its the general overwiew of the story that you want. Sadly almost everything else is getting lost in the process
Think about it: every arc post Dark Kingdom introduces a dozen of new characters (Stars introduces around 20). You have 11-13 twenty one minute episodes per season to include all the returning characters (and this part of the cast gets bigger with each arc) aswell as the mentioned dozen of new ones. On top of that majority of screen time still obviously goes to Usagi, then Mamoru and Chibiusa and then to everyone else. Thats very little time.

Of course Crystal is what it is and it wont change for the final two seasons but i do hope that if we're going to get any other SM anime in the future then it will have 20-25 episodes per arc

The number of fillers doesnt have to be to large but going so fast makes the show very dry. And obviously the fillers would have to focus on characterization of our cast and be tied into the plot.

Besides there are all kinds of shows: long, short, story heavy, fillervilles and they all have their audience. I dont buy it when some say "people dont watch long shows anymore". Of course they do. And Sailor Moon doesnt have to be a long show to work. But it would work a lot better if it wasnt a crazy race in each arc. Middle point is what is needed


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:54 pm 
Solaris Luna
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The Blizzard Prince wrote:
I was disappointed by those changes as well.

Like I said, they were pretty minor and I myself found it small potatoes compared to other changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:02 pm 
Solaris Luna
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SailorSugababe wrote:
Besides there are all kinds of shows: long, short, story heavy, fillervilles and they all have their audience. I dont buy it when some say "people dont watch long shows anymore". Of course they do.

I certainly didn't mean it like that by my original post. I was mostly pointing out how certain people aren't into filler, mainly when the show is in progress on TV like Steven Universe. I'm sorry if I came off otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:13 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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matt0044 wrote:
SailorSugababe wrote:
Besides there are all kinds of shows: long, short, story heavy, fillervilles and they all have their audience. I dont buy it when some say "people dont watch long shows anymore". Of course they do.

I certainly didn't mean it like that by my original post. I was mostly pointing out how certain people aren't into filler, mainly when the show is in progress on TV like Steven Universe. I'm sorry if I came off otherwise.


No, no, dont worry i meant the opinion in general, because i've heard it many times in here and outside the forum aswell.

Of course im aware there are people who really dislike filler in general - and thats perfectly fine, we all have our tastes - yet i do believe most fans would actualy prefer a little bit of filler, specially if its written carefully into the story and serves as characterization and fleshing out some of the cast.

I'd even dare to say that even people who dislike filler wouldnt minnd 5-6 extra episodes if their quality was good and they wouldnt feel out of place

I think SM fandom jus way too often looks at the existing extremes (so no filler fast pace vs lot of filler slow pace) manga vs old anime when there could be other options. Like i also explained in previous post, old anime and manga were what they were for certain reasons, the new anime doesnt have to be that way at all (though its too late for Crystal of course)


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:54 pm 
Solaris Luna
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SailorSugababe wrote:
Of course im aware there are people who really dislike filler in general - and thats perfectly fine, we all have our tastes - yet i do believe most fans would actualy prefer a little bit of filler, specially if its written carefully into the story and serves as characterization and fleshing out some of the cast.


I think the dislike of filler episodes for Steven Universe and Avatar: The Last Airbender (well, from what I heard from fans in those days) comes from that we're not sure if the show has the luxury to be wasting time. I wrote a post here elaborating on the SU side of things: http://matt0044.tumblr.com/post/1542645 ... rsy-of-gem

Quote:
(though its too late for Crystal of course)

Well, Crystal was said to be a more faithful adaptation of the Manga and set out to do such. As such, my main critiques lie with where they aren't quite as faithful storyline-wise like how Sailor Moon's suicide was altered (mainly in how they could've kept the stabbing with alternate animation techniques).


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:12 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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matt0044 wrote:
Quote:
(though its too late for Crystal of course)

Well, Crystal was said to be a more faithful adaptation of the Manga and set out to do such. As such, my main critiques lie with where they aren't quite as faithful storyline-wise like how Sailor Moon's suicide was altered (mainly in how they could've kept the stabbing with alternate animation techniques).

Even in the live-action PGSM, which had to cater for very lil kids, stabbing was seen a number of times - we just didn't get to see any blood there & all.

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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:40 am 
Solaris Luna
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I definitely agree with the consensus that the best approach would have been a 26 episode season per arc. The way the 90s anime and manga worked out is forgivable due to their circumstances, but Crystal could have been a different case. Oh well.

matt0044 wrote:
Like I said, they were pretty minor and I myself found it small potatoes compared to other changes.

Yeah, that's why I originally didn't mention them. Well that, and I didn't want to go on and on. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:01 am 
Solaris Luna
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The Blizzard Prince wrote:
I definitely agree with the consensus that the best approach would have been a 26 episode season per arc. The way the 90s anime and manga worked out is forgivable due to their circumstances, but Crystal could have been a different case. Oh well.

Personally, I can see that they wanted to adapt the Manga with certain liberties to translate the story into a new medium and respect that intention. I do question their attempts at certain liberties but it's clear that Season 1 was a learning experience for better or worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:36 am 
Solaris Luna
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matt0044 wrote:
Personally, I can see that they wanted to adapt the Manga with certain liberties to translate the story into a new medium and respect that intention. I do question their attempts at certain liberties but it's clear that Season 1 was a learning experience for better or worse.

I'm not opposed to taking liberties with an adaptation. In fact, that's why I didn't mention every change they made. (I think some even worked!) But I do question things like the Four Kings plot. If you don't have enough episodes to do it well, why bother doing it?


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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:55 am 
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As I have stated before on other threads I personally did not want an act for act manga adaptation. I would have been ok with something more faithful to the manga then say the 90s anime but I really wished they added filler episodes for characterization, character development, plot development and world building. I mean for one the villains just like in the manga have very little personality then "ooh look how evil I am" and are little more then glorified monsters of the day. Thetis aka the Youma that helped Jadeite out in the Cruise episode was given more characterization and development in the 90s then many of the villains were in the manga and Crystal. I would have liked them to add stuff fleshing out the Senshi's past and characters and maybe stuff for some of the civilian characters. As a lot of people mentioned I do think they should have adapted Casablanca Memories during the Dark Kingdom arc as it is referenced in later arcs. Worst of all Crystal edited out important characters like Rei's Grandfather and Unazuki from the Dark Kingdom arc and R respectively and the who Shitennou romance addition was poorly executed and all around terrible. Over all Crystal is my least favorite adaptation aside from some of the bad dubs. I still do like it and I am sure I will like Dream over even SuperS of the 90s anime but it left a lot to be desired in my personal wishes for a new anime.

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 Post subject: Re: Filler and Crystal
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:09 am 
Aurorae Lunares
Aurorae Lunares
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Joined: May 01, 2015
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Location: Moon Castle, Sea of Serenity, Moon
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MariaTenebre wrote:
As I have stated before on other threads I personally did not want an act for act manga adaptation. I would have been ok with something more faithful to the manga then say the 90s anime but I really wished they added filler episodes for characterization, character development, plot development and world building. I mean for one the villains just like in the manga have very little personality then "ooh look how evil I am" and are little more then glorified monsters of the day. Thetis aka the Youma that helped Jadeite out in the Cruise episode was given more characterization and development in the 90s then many of the villains were in the manga and Crystal. I would have liked them to add stuff fleshing out the Senshi's past and characters and maybe stuff for some of the civilian characters. As a lot of people mentioned I do think they should have adapted Casablanca Memories during the Dark Kingdom arc as it is referenced in later arcs. Worst of all Crystal edited out important characters like Rei's Grandfather and Unazuki from the Dark Kingdom arc and R respectively and the who Shitennou romance addition was poorly executed and all around terrible. Over all Crystal is my least favorite adaptation aside from some of the bad dubs. I still do like it and I am sure I will like Dream over even SuperS of the 90s anime but it left a lot to be desired in my personal wishes for a new anime.


I have to agree with you on this. I would love to see Rei and Unazuki being friends.

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