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 Post subject: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:16 pm 
Luna Crescens
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It’s been known that Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal is favored by the majority of the SM fan base when in comparison to the 90’s. They stress their viewpoints by pointing out all of the flaws and say that Mamoru has only taken interest in Usagi after the whole revelation of being SM and TM (although he always made an effort to “bother” or “tease” her beforehand. However, they fail to mention that Mamoru had never taken interest in bothering or approaching Usagi (unless he had no choice in result of bumping into her) until he suspected that she was Sailor Moon (which was I think in episode 3 when he saw her transform before clinging to the bus going into a different dimension).In episode 5, he came in her window to grab her to fight, then episode 6 or 7 (can’t remember), he caught her from falling in her civilian form, and even kissed her n episode 4, knowing that she’s SM. I know some of you will say that “Mamoru knew who Usagi was, and that’s why the attraction is better there”, but that just proves my point: he only took interest in her after discovering that she’s SM. At least in the 90’s, he felt naturally attracted to her, not knowing who she is, or who he is.

Other things: Mamoru overall just seemed, creepy...... Appearing in front on her window sill, smelling her handkerchief, always to happen appear before her in TM form ( before she transformed), and bringing her to his apartment when she passed out instead of taking her home.

Edit: I’m not trying to hate, I’m just pointing out some things I’ve just noticed based on what others have said. I’m only just trying to have a healthy debate here.

Update:About Mamoru kissing Usagi in episode 22, at that point he wasn’t 100% aware of who he was (him being TM). Crystal Mamoru didn’t have that problem.


Last edited by Cierra Moon on Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:15 pm 
Luna Crescens
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I've often felt that Usagi and Mamoru's cute bickering in the '90s anime was a sort of tsundere relationship, a "I'm not going out of my way to hang out with you and give you life advice because I like you or anything" sorta dynamic.

I also feel that way about Usagi and Rei in that continuity to some extent, Rei is actually extremely supportive of Usagi in the 90s continuity when you look at the grander scope and most vital moments of their interactions.

For crystal- I can't honestly remember if they changed anything about Usagi and Mamoru's relationship in Crystal versus the manga? But basically, they don't really take as much time fleshing out the chemistry, and like most things in those versions it feels a little rushed and abrupt to me. I dunno. I don't think it's an awful relationship either way, but I do think there's more substance to their interactions in the 90s version.

Though I do think the break up over a vision subplot in the R season is kinda dumb, since he really doesn't explain his reasoning to her at all. A good relationship is all about being able to communicate, and these two can be kinda... not so great about that. ^_^'

All in all I don't hate either version.

The hankerchief smelling thing... that's a bit of a fetishy cutesy thing people do sometimes, smelling each other's things. It might be more appropriate for someone already intimate though, rather than having just met. One thing I do think was a bit creepy (which is definitely from the manga) is Mamoru taking Usagi to his house, his bed, and then standing between her and the door and putting his hand on her shoulder as she leaves and stuff. That's not exactly kosher.

But I'm hardly one to talk, given my avatar. (I work with the highly charitable fan-idea, though, that Naru sort of allowed Nephrite's possession on a subconscious level. And at least they were meeting relatively in public. He wasn't really that un-gentlemanly apart from challenging her over the mistaken identity thing, and the subsequent energy draining incident which seemed like an unexpected thing on his end, whereas taking a teenager to your bedroom is kinda inappropriate from the get-go. Also: Nephrite was probably brainwashed even in the '90s continuity, while Manga/Crystal Mamoru has no such excuse.)

Another thing I kind of don't like, but it has less to do with their relationship and more to do with Usagi's own heroism... (ending details)
Spoiler: show
In the manga and Crystal, she seems to pretty much need Mamoru's help in order to defeat Metallia, and literally leans on him for part of the fight. By contrast, in the '90s anime, he dies just defending her from Beryl, and she has to go out in the snow alone... that's much more powerful on her part, I think. But that's more of a dramatic thing...

In the '90s anime, she does do something kind of like that in the R movie on the asteroid, but that's later, and also, she got up on her own to start using the silver crystal, and he just wrenches himself up into Endymion form to help her. That whole scene was a bit more satisfying to me, than the entire Metallia fight from the manga/crystal.

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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:12 am 
Luna
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You conveniently forgot that 90s Mamoru kisses a black out drunk Sailor Moon, But okay


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:57 am 
Stella Nova
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^Yup, episode 22 and it even ended that way without Luna ever showing up.

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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:15 am 
Systema Solare
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SILVER wrote:
You conveniently forgot that 90s Mamoru kisses a black out drunk Sailor Moon, But okay


oh and i suppose you approved of him stalking her in Crystal? i prefer him stealing a kiss on her in the 90s anime then him taking an unconcious Usagi into his house kinda creepy

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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:23 am 
Luna Crescens
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SILVER wrote:
You conveniently forgot that 90s Mamoru kisses a black out drunk Sailor Moon, But okay

Poo, I forgot to mention that, and it is creepy. But I forgot because it also happens in the manga! (Of all the elements to faithfully carry over. Bleh.)

Crystal is the only version to sort of 'fix' that moment. I think it's a little better, at least, to have her falling down tired (and in character!). Either way, it's not super romantic, and Mamoru is basically going up to her when she's tired and trying to kiss in any version regardless.

There are much more romantic things in episode 22, mwa ha ha... (no but seriously, I like the dancing)

I'm not sure if Luna showing up after the kiss (in the manga and crystal) is an improvement per se. I mean yes, it means he leaves, but like... it also suggests that he wouldn't have left if she didn't show up? Tradeoffs. Episode 22 at least sorta leaves me with the impression that he left on his own afterwards. I dunno.

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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:08 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Ryo Urawa wrote:
SILVER wrote:
You conveniently forgot that 90s Mamoru kisses a black out drunk Sailor Moon, But okay


oh and i suppose you approved of him stalking her in Crystal? i prefer him stealing a kiss on her in the 90s anime then him taking an unconcious Usagi into his house kinda creepy

Um, and where would he could take her ? I mean if he take her house . That will raise more questions . The police is the same. So he took her home , and did nothing with her .


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:57 pm 
Luna Crescens
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imaginationgirl wrote:
Ryo Urawa wrote:
SILVER wrote:
You conveniently forgot that 90s Mamoru kisses a black out drunk Sailor Moon, But okay


oh and i suppose you approved of him stalking her in Crystal? i prefer him stealing a kiss on her in the 90s anime then him taking an unconcious Usagi into his house kinda creepy

Um, and where would he could take her ? I mean if he take her house . That will raise more questions . The police is the same. So he took her home , and did nothing with her .

He could have easily slipped her back into her bed just like he found her house and opened her window in episode 4.


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:00 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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He could have easily slipped her back into her bed just like he found her house and opened her window in episode 4.[/quote]
Not really , everyone was asleep at that time . The parents were probably awake . Besides is not like he did anything creepy . He just took her home , and let her sleep in his bed alone. It would be creepy if he slept inthe same bed with her /. He still didn't


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:15 pm 
Luna Crescens
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imaginationgirl wrote:
He could have easily slipped her back into her bed just like he found her house and opened her window in episode 4.

Not really , everyone was asleep at that time . The parents were probably awake . Besides is not like he did anything creepy . He just took her home , and let her sleep in his bed alone. It would be creepy if he slept inthe same bed with her /. He still didn't[/quote]
Even if her parents were awake, he still could have knocked on the front door and said he was Usagi's friend (which they would have believed considering how friendly they were when they first saw him with Usagi in the Black Moon arc.) and said that he found her asleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:17 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Cierra Moon wrote:
imaginationgirl wrote:
He could have easily slipped her back into her bed just like he found her house and opened her window in episode 4.

Not really , everyone was asleep at that time . The parents were probably awake . Besides is not like he did anything creepy . He just took her home , and let her sleep in his bed alone. It would be creepy if he slept inthe same bed with her /. He still didn't

Even if her parents were awake, he still could have knocked on the front door and said he was Usagi's friend (which they would have believed considering how friendly they were when they first saw him with Usagi in the Black Moon arc.) and said that he found her asleep.[/quote]
Again that will raise questions. I doubt they would beive him.In the Black Moon arc they probably already met . Time has passed in that arc.


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:01 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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If you want to get down to it, Tuxedo Mask being in a relationship with Sailor Moon at all is inherently problematic because of their age gap. While the manga shrinks it significantly, it's still an age gap in the manga as well. But I think fans sometimes take the show too seriously when it's just a cartoon show and a 25 year old series so of course some aspects of the show are going to be out of date to our modern Western standards of how relationships should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:19 am 
Luna Crescens
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imaginationgirl wrote:
Cierra Moon wrote:
imaginationgirl wrote:
He could have easily slipped her back into her bed just like he found her house and opened her window in episode 4.

Not really , everyone was asleep at that time . The parents were probably awake . Besides is not like he did anything creepy . He just took her home , and let her sleep in his bed alone. It would be creepy if he slept inthe same bed with her /. He still didn't

Even if her parents were awake, he still could have knocked on the front door and said he was Usagi's friend (which they would have believed considering how friendly they were when they first saw him with Usagi in the Black Moon arc.) and said that he found her asleep.

Again that will raise questions. I doubt they would beive him.In the Black Moon arc they probably already met . Time has passed in that arc.[/quote]
He still could have knocked on the door and left her there (of course hiding in the shadows until her family came out to get her). Yeah, it may raise questions and suspicions, but keeping her at his place over he night until morning breaks would be more troublesome as it would definitely raise questions. Overall, I just didn’t think that what Mamoru did wasn’t a good idea, especially when he knew where she lived and how to sneak into her window without waking her parents (both were at night, so most likely Usagi’s mom would be sleep and Papa was still attending the Party).


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:36 am 
Luna Crescens
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Neon Genesis wrote:
age gap

There's also the subjective ethical problem of exactly how bad/problematic age gaps are and how they are handled. If you can wait years to pursue anything serious until adulthood, how big of a problem is it? Some people would say that even in adulthood, there's problems with age gaps (and certainly America's current president makes that look kinda bad), but once you're consenting adults, you're consenting adults.

I don't know if that issue has actually changed much since the 90s, though. Back then in the US people were obsessed with 'satanic ritual abuse' and silly stuff like that, and as far as I know 16 is still adult marrying age in Japan today just as it was then (which is a plot point in Sailor Stars- Usagi talks about this in the first couple episodes. She and Mamoru have been waiting aside from the kissing).

And then there's the whole other issue of whether their past life memories affect their subjective age.

And then there's the question of whether the season 1 reset dialed time back a year so that Usagi is a year younger on paper than she is subjectively after her memory restoration in Sailor Moon R.

I like that Sailor Moon, in any iteration, tried to poke at the age issue at all, and I don't think it did a half-bad job honestly. Not with Mamoru/Usagi or Naru/Nephrite.

Chibi-usa/Helios have a bit of an age gap but I think it's a smaller one, Helios seemed to be a preteen boy. But he was kind of a secretive jerk and she changed clothes around him (why was that even onscreen??) so I question that relationship on some other levels, even though I'm fine with the whole 'Sapient Horse' angle.

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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:56 pm 
Luna Nova
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You consider an age gap of 3-4 years a problem?!
My significant other ist 25 years older than me.


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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:28 pm 
Luna Crescens
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To clarify, I don't think any amount of age gap between consenting adults should be ruled out. It can complicate things, but I don't think it's inherently wrong.

Between minors and anybody of adult age or over- even for stupid tiny gaps like a 17 year old and 18 year old in the US- there are legal concerns to be extremely cautious of. For anybody who is particularly young and emotionally/psychologically inexperienced, it's wise to not be completely committed to any relationship (age gap or otherwise) and to just take it slow and careful as you grow up.

I personally got together with someone when I was 18 who I started getting close to at 14, who was four years older than me. We didn't ultimately stay together (I didn't really get to know my eventual husband until a while later; my husband is about two years older than me and we've been together for much longer) but we are still friends. I think the break-up in that case had a lot less to do with anything about age gaps and more to do with personality and philosophical differences that neither of us fully realized until we'd tried things out and both gotten more experience with life in general.

I also had an experience with someone who died younger than I am now (and older than I was at the time), but that's something else. There's reasons I wound up so obsessed with the Naru/Nephrite story once I saw it. :(

I do think that people waiting for each other can work out, though! And as I said, consenting adults are consenting adults, regardless of any gap after that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Usagi and Mamoru’s relationship in Crystal season 1
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:54 am 
Usagi's Rose
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my parents had a 10 year age gap so gaps aren't an issue to me

one or both being underage is the only complaint if you ask me

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