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 Post subject: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:39 pm 
Luna
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Yeah, and you can also get tired of criticizing something you love. You can get completely fed up with it and decide, “You know what? Flaws aside, I love this thing, and I don’t have to waste hours of my life admitting its flaws to strangers on the Internet in order to somehow justify my love of it.” You can get sick of watching others gleefully tear it apart, for no reason other than that it’s popular and they hate that you love it. You can get sick of watching others tearing it apart with good intentions, too.

In the end, it’s just a cartoon, or a book, or a movie. It’s not that serious, and you can enjoy it without hyper-focusing on its flaws. You don’t need to justify your love of something to someone else, least of all a person you don’t even know.

Saw this post on tumblr and thought that it was especially applicable in this section of the forum (though it can apply to all fandoms either way).


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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:09 pm 
Galaxias
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You mean to say there are better things to do with one's life than arguing obsessively with strangers on the Internet every day? I don't believe you. :ninja:

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:57 pm 
Systema Solare
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Mara's right there's nothing more fun than arguing over stupid stuff :wink: :lol: :evillaugh: XD

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:09 am 
Columnae Creationis
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Ryo Urawa wrote:
Mara's right there's nothing more fun than arguing over stupid stuff :wink: :lol: :evillaugh: XD

Yeah, "fun" is always the keyword - if it's not fun, then it's not; as long as it is, it is & is hence welcome here.

This site is for fun. :)

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:33 am 
Luna
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Ryo Urawa wrote:
Mara's right there's nothing more fun than arguing over stupid stuff :wink: :lol: :evillaugh: XD

Yeah, "fun" is always the keyword - if it's not fun, then it's not; as long as it is, it is & is hence welcome here.

This site is for fun. :)


Rika, i think that you’re fun, but ...no. Just no.
You guys are extremely selective on what to bag on and what not to bag on, especially in this subforum. Look at the thread about things that were hated in Crystal and how long that was allowed to fester -and THEN claim “fun”.

I’m not even mad right now, but let’s call it for what it is.
The toxicity to a fandom is always there but there’s definitely things that overlooked (Mara, Sailor Starlight, ect).


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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:54 am 
Systema Solare
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^^^hey Mara got the mention he wanted :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:03 am 
Planeta
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I think I am not good at understanding why people get upset when others make fun of Th eir favorite TV shows, movies, etc.

When I fell in love with "Sailor Moon" (90's version), people made fun of it and I was literally the only kid at my school who liked the show. "So what?" I thought. I don't need to like the same things as everybody else and vice-versa. Did they mock the show? Yeah.

As I grew up, I got into horror movies, particularly slasher films. If I cared about what critics wrote about some of my favorite movies, I would feel like someone who isn't educated or has no taste. But here is the thing... I don't care. I don't need to care about someone else's opinion to feel validated.

It seems to me sometimes that Crystal fans care too much... heck, I like Crystal, I had fun watching it. Of course, I have many reservations about the show and the studio, TOEI, but if I were a big Crystal fan I would give zero cares about what people think. What would ultimately matter to me would be my personal enjoyment. That's what should matter.

Just my thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:06 am 
Galaxias
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Ryo Urawa wrote:
^^^hey Mara got the mention he wanted :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:58 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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Clow wrote:
Just my thoughts.

That seems like a pretty reasonable position to me. For a similar example, I love the first four Tremors movies, but my whole family and the majority of people I talked to online all thought they were stupid, and it was frequent to express appalling surprise that a fourth one even existed (that said, I don't think the fifth one turned out very good). And I don't worry much about what people think of those movies, because I like them and that's good enough for me.

That said, I can also imagine Silver's frustration that the forum base doesn't seem to have a very diverse set of opinions on Crystal- there is a very large amount of hate for it here. (What baffles me is how people seem to like the Manga a whole lot more than Crystal, when from my perspective they're extremely comparable with only a few key differences that don't really seem THAT bad).

I mean, it is pretty severe. I think I've been one of the least negative people about Crystal and I still called it mediocre (I also express about the same complaints/discomfort with the manga, even though I can respect it having come first; the first two story arcs had so little character development and so little of what I love about the '90s anime that it's hard for me to stay interested or muster any real enthusiasm about the manga beyond curiosity about general concepts that differ, rather than true investment in the story for it's own sake) and then I exuberantly sing the '90s anime's praises in thousands of words.

I don't think expressing criticism is wrong (unless it's dismissive of people who disagree; it's kind of a bad idea to speak in absolute terms about something being 'objectively' bad rather than subjectively), but I can see being frustrated with the mountains of disapproval, particularly when this is "The Sailor Moon Forum", seemingly the most generic US forum community for going and talking about the franchise.

It could just be representative of the actual demographic, or it could have to do with narrower factors about who comes here an who doesn't. I don't know. I don't really understand how to engage with modern social media very well beyond just sort of going "oh, these tumblr posts I improbably happened across look cool, I'll read them", which is more like reading someone's public art diary than engaging with a community.

In any case, there is a tricky balance between having fun and overflowing negativity. I don't think trying to police people's opinions is a good idea though. The trouble with the entire concept of social toxicity is that it can be kind of arbitrary to judge and kind of unhealthy to try to restrict (taken too far you can get a situation where people are not allowed to complain and are not allowed to speak freely). So I'm not really sure what difference in course of action I'd really suggest, I just wanted to say that I can kind of see both sides of this and that I don't think it's a great idea for anyone (on either side of the debate) to get hostile about it.

Incidentally, to the extent any political opinions weigh in on this awkward dynamic, I do think the '90s anime was more effectively pro LGBT in it's content (particularly on the G and the T) than other iterations I've seen, and that's one of the things I like about it. I myself am panseula, polyamorous, and transgendered (just say female/she/her/etc, please), as I've mentioned elsewhere; I bring this up here because it often seems there's sort of a political (and generational) divide between the fandoms for different iterations of Sailor Moon.

But I don't think Crystal really undermines that LGBT stuff either; I mean, Haruka and Michiru are cool in any continuity even when their particular ethical philosophy is up for debate in any given story. I may prefer Naru/Nephrite (and Naru/Umino) and Zoisite/Kunzite (who to be fair are huge jerks to everybody else while presumably-brainwashed), but I'm not even against Crystal's Sen/Shi pairings and I think they have their cute points and even wish they had been given more screen time to develop it in depth- I would've liked to see MORE of Crystal season 1. (I also think almost any ship can be valid and fun, as I rambled about in another thread in the Fandom forum about crack pairings.) So think the political angle of the divide is a bit unfortunate.

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:40 am 
Planeta
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Well, to sum up my thoughts:

1. Haters gonna hate --I was very disappointed when Crystal came out and I can understand why people got angry with the inconsistencies, delays, changes of character design, etc.

2. If you like it, you like it, and that's what matters. I am part of a similar community of horror fans. I happen to love the movie "Halloween H20." Everybody else --including people I respect-- hates it. They make jokes about the movie and the movie gets the same amount of "hate" as Crystal. Do I care? No. Zero cares given.

3. YOLO. If you get bothered by what people think or say, you will be letting them dictate your life and you will deprive yourself of things you like and enjoy and admire to please others. It is *your* life.

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:29 am 
Yoshi
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
This site is for fun. :)


Clow wrote:
3. YOLO.



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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:43 am 
Galaxias
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Clow wrote:
I happen to love the movie "Halloween H20." Everybody else --including people I respect-- hates it. They make jokes about the movie and the movie gets the same amount of "hate" as Crystal. Do I care? No. Zero cares given.

But you should care. Because Halloween H20 sucks. :x

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:04 am 
Luna
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You are also allowed to not love something! Especially when you waited several years for it and recieved an obviously rushed and underdeveloped product!! There’s no shame in admitting that the franchise and its fans alike deserve better treatment!!!

I’m not trying to antagonize you, but I’m so tired of people policing others for criticizing Crystal. Some want better and I dare say they are entitled to want something better. This was, after all, what was supposed to be the difinitive Sailor Moon adaptation, and I hoped for it to encompass everything that was wonderful about the manga and the classic anime. Unfortunately, this adaptation did not live up to that at all. (In fact, I believe it to be weaker than both.) That’s not to say that I don’t love Crystal, I very much do and I own all of it on DVD. But I’ve followed this series for around 17 years now and I’ve watched every adaptation fumble in one realm or another (except for the musicals... those are freakin’ spectacular as musicals.) Sailor Moon is an okay anime. It’s my favorite anime, but I can definitely admit that some other anime(s?) are better written and produced. Just because it is my favorite does not make it good. Sailor Moon Crystal is unfortunately of even poorer quality than the original. I love it, still, but it certainly has all of the flack that it gets coming to it. I’m not going to cut Toei or Naoko any slack here. Sailor Moon is a beautiful premise and it has so much potential to be such a brilliant work, but nobody has paid it the attention it deserves. I’m not going to sit around and act like I’m okay with this product coming out the way it has. Sailor Moon has been adapted so many different times that at this point, why even adapt it again if you’re not aiming to do it in a spectacular way? There is no aspect of Crystal that is far outshines any other adaptation of the series, except for maybe the real time fight sequences, which even then are arguable outshined by other adaptations like PGSM or the higher quality productions of the 90’s anime. For whatever reason, many Crystal fans on the forum have become increasingly defensive of the series as if the people who dislike the series are attempting to make a mockery of those who like the series’ tastes, which is not the case at all.

All of us have our own reasons for liking or disliking the series, and everyone is entitled to their opinion!! If someone else’s opinion of something ruins your enjoyment of it, you should take a long, introspective look and evaluate your priorities!

And for the love of The Galaxy Cauldron, FORUMS WERE MADE FOR DISCUSSION!! OPPOSING VIEWS ARE A NATURAL PHENOMENON!!

I love Crystal, but honestly, when I look at it objectively as an adaptation, it sucks. I feel like I should be able to talk about why that is, as long as it’s civil. I’m not trying to discourage you from enjoying it. I’m simply telling you why I don’t. I don’t think any less of you for thinking it’s good! But I didn’t think it was good, I still don’t think it’s good, and I don’t see why you don’t want me to express why that is.

I’m still so bitter about how long I waited for the product I received. :/

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:23 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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For what it's worth, Clow, although I've paid very little attention to the Halloween franchise (I saw the first five on TV when I was younger and never looked into it again), H20 sounds like the most interesting of the films I haven't seen. I haven't been in a big hurry, but if I was going to watch one, that would be the one. I like what I have heard about it, it sounds like Jamie Lee Curtis' part is actually kinda cool, and the most dramatically satisfying new development I've heard about.

(For partly similar reasons to why I like the movie Aliens so much, when I don't care too much about the rest of that franchise. Someone rising up to conquer their demons appeals to me. It doesn't sound quite as interesting as Aliens, though, because that movie is extremely good in my opinion, and I liked a lot of other things about that movie like Bishop and Newt and Hudson and Gorman's characters, among other things.)

Quote:
All of us have our own reasons for liking or disliking the series, and everyone is entitled to their opinion!! If someone else’s opinion of something ruins your enjoyment of it, you should take a long, introspective look and evaluate your priorities!

And for the love of The Galaxy Cauldron, FORUMS WERE MADE FOR DISCUSSION!! OPPOSING VIEWS ARE A NATURAL PHENOMENON!!

I agree with this, too. I think it's important for both sides to be civil and to try to keep it friendly rather than antagonistic (on either side of the debate, like I said before), but freedom to express opinions is important and shouldn't be restricted, or else the conversation dies and things only get quietly more hostile.

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:32 am 
Luna Crescens
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Mitsukara wrote:
What baffles me is how people seem to like the Manga a whole lot more than Crystal, when from my perspective they're extremely comparable with only a few key differences that don't really seem THAT bad


Thing is, the manga is almost 25 years old. It's heavily flawed, but for its time it was progressive. Crystal isn't. Toei looked back at the manga and thought "This story is not dated at all! Let's leave it the way it is, but suck out the humor, charm, gore and badass senshi and add an ill-conceived romance sublot instead." Plus the manga is pretty to look at and Crystal is...Well, Crystal is Crystal.

And on a strictly personal level, I hate what they did with Rei. #NotMyRei


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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:47 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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Fair enough. I don't think Crystal improved on the Manga much, but I guess I didn't really have a lot of specific expectations for it. My first thought was "Ooh, a new show? Are they gonna grab elements from multiple continuities an write a new story, or what?" and then I was like "Oh... that's the same number of episodes as manga chapters and the titles match. They're just straight adapting the manga," and then I found out a little more and I was like "Oh, they do more with the Shitennou? That might be interesting" and then I watched it and I was like "eh, that didn't really add up to much". And then I shrugged and got back to obsessively fangirling the '90s anime XD

I also didn't really wait expectantly for it, since my life was even more of a mess when it was first coming out, so I had to catch up more recently. Plus I've read the manga quite recently in the scheme of things too, so I can see them more like equals.

That, and I'm all about having tons and tons of little character development moments to flesh everything out, redemption stories, Usagi being super forgiving all the time, and that stuff. And a bunch of the specific personalities and events unique to the '90s version (speaking of Rei...). The manga feels like a constant whirlwind of characters being introduced, doing vague hostile things, and dying gruesomely, and then our heroes barely have time to even understand what's going on before they're neck-deep in a battle and flailing around with brand new powers hoping for the best and then boom, it's already onto the next mess like that before anyone has any time to think. Crystal is mostly still like that for me, except with the dying gruesomely toned down/cut out. There's a few cute little twists (I still like Umino's bush hands for example), and a few cool things that were questionably scrapped, but not much to it.

So basically I see the manga as the seed of a bunch of cool ideas that weren't developed yet, the anime as the beautiful flowers that grew from only some of those seeds (leaving me to wonder how the others might've turned out), and crystal as kind of a... I don't know. A barely-tweaked retelling of the manga that isn't very exciting, but nothing to really get me upset about either, just sorta go "eh"?

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:13 am 
Luna Crescens
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Mitsukara wrote:
A barely-tweaked retelling of the manga that isn't very exciting, but nothing to really get me upset about either, just sorta go "eh"?


That's how I feel too. I hate some specific things about Crystal, but as a whole I don't much care.

I am interested in what they do with the movie adaptations though. But I swear, If they'll cut all the character development for the senshi in Dream...


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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:26 pm 
Planeta
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Clow wrote:
I happen to love the movie "Halloween H20." Everybody else --including people I respect-- hates it. They make jokes about the movie and the movie gets the same amount of "hate" as Crystal. Do I care? No. Zero cares given.

But you should care. Because Halloween H20 sucks. :x


Mara... oh my, I have just mentioned your name.

There... you got mentioned... twice... oh my, people are paying attention to you. :P :lol:

Spoiler: show
just kidding; your jokes are so funny! :keke:

Never ever believe people when they say that your Naoko rants and car jokes have gone out of style; they are timeless; you should start a stand-up comedy act!!! :kero:


flockapowpow wrote:
All of us have our own reasons for liking or disliking the series, and everyone is entitled to their opinion!! If someone else’s opinion of something ruins your enjoyment of it, you should take a long, introspective look and evaluate your priorities!


Exactly. That's what I think.

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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:07 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: You can criticize something that you love!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:27 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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SILVER wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Ryo Urawa wrote:
Mara's right there's nothing more fun than arguing over stupid stuff :wink: :lol: :evillaugh: XD

Yeah, "fun" is always the keyword - if it's not fun, then it's not; as long as it is, it is & is hence welcome here.

This site is for fun. :)


Rika, i think that you’re fun, but ...no. Just no.
You guys are extremely selective on what to bag on and what not to bag on, especially in this subforum. Look at the thread about things that were hated in Crystal and how long that was allowed to fester -and THEN claim “fun”.

I’m not even mad right now, but let’s call it for what it is.
The toxicity to a fandom is always there but there’s definitely things that overlooked (Mara, Sailor Starlight, ect).

Yes, I've been overlooking stuff here - some I choose to, & some, well, I just overlook & all, but for the former case, I've overlooked you too (even when you're being complained/reported, hence probably annoying those complaining/reporting you too), :wink: so I'm kinda being "fair" to posters having opposing opinions, regarding what I choose to overlook. lol

And thx to the forum members & admins who've made this thread more fun & lightened it up in the latest posts, & I'm locking this thread as its nature has already become pretty obvious now. :)

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