Anyone else like Traditional Gender Roles in Anime?

[CopeDog87]

Re: Am I the only one who genuinely enjoys sexism in Anime?

So men can do anything in the world except wear short skirts and suddenly you're crying sexism?

That statement in itself is sexism, as you’re trying to say that only girls can wear short shirts. It also clearly shows you didn’t read my post. I said as a kid I wanted to a sailor senshi with a slightly more masculine outfit. Which, in my case wouldn’t have even included a skirt.

As a previous poster said, that's like getting mad about how only women can be princesses.

Yet another sexist, gender role rooted statement that’s wrong. The anime Revolutionary Girl Utena proved that the gender roles and responsibilities of a prince and a princess don’t have to be followed just because of the sex a character is born.

Dragging an entirely different and unrelated can of worms into it (gay marriage/civil unions) isn't exactly convincing me that I should listen to you here.

However, it is oh so relevant in this day and age and relates perfectly to this matter. You were originally trying to make the argument that being a senshi is the same thing and would grant the same advantages as being a sailor senshi….as long as you change the title the warrior takes because that's the "creator's rule". Which, is exactly the same wrong naïve attitude that more conservative religious people take with the whole issue of gay marriage, by arguing that gay people can still be together and just get a civil union, as long as they don’t take on the title of marriage because of what the bible says. When they clearly aren’t the same thing and don’t grant the same advantages and benefits.

 

[CopeDog87]

One thing that people need to remember is that this show is for young girls. Maybe adult males like it, but you're not the target audience. It isn't meant to cater to you, it's meant to cater to little girls who want to see girls doing awesome things.If you want to see shows with guys doing awesome things, there are about a million other shows out there ready and waiting for you. It isn't like the males in this series can't do awesome things, they just aren't on screen as often as the girls, because the target audience wasn't as interested in them. And that's why there's the whole romantic ideal thing going on, because again, catering to little girls. That's not "sexism", people, any more than it's "sexist" that the main characters in My Little Pony are all female.

However, you aren’t taking into account the Gay male part of the Sailor Moon fan base that grew up watching and treasuring the show young. Not every male Sailor Moon fan is a part of the whole Brony phenomenon, and simply grew up wanting to watch girls do awesome things. In part because they could identify more with women than men, but also because they perhaps were more open minded to the idea of a female super heroine. Just because a show supposedly doesn't cater to and wasn't intended for certain types of fans doesn't mean we aren't out there, and that we don't have the right to take issue with such a singular, close minded attitude!

Your post is also sexist because you are making the assumption that all young girls aren’t interested in watching guys do awesome things, which again is naïve and a wrong stance to take as it’s stuck in gender stereotypical restrictions. My sister, for example was more of a DBZ fan growing up, where as I was the Sailor Moon fan.

The idea of having a mostly female cast isn’t sexism Kero, it’s your naïve, gender role restricted, pretty arrogant attitude that you have spewed over and over again on this board that only girls should be able to take on the title and role of being a “sailor senshi”. Just because the original creator feels that way doesn’t mean that all of the shows fans have to agree with it. Because, just like with certain characters, plot twists, endings etc., you can dislike certain aspects of a show and still be a loyal, die hard fan.

 

[Remus Tsukino]

Girls can only be Senshi just as girls can only be Amazons in Wonder Woman. That's just the way it works. Here's the difference between the two: Wonder Woman was created by a man near the beginning of World War II. Sailor Moon wasn't. Is the man who created Wonder Woman sexist?
Actually, he might have been in favor of women...

 

[abc123youandme]

Re: Am I the only one who genuinely enjoys sexism in Anime?

Oh Gee.

That statement in itself is sexism, as you’re trying to say that only girls can wear short shirts. It also clearly shows you didn’t read my post. I said as a kid I wanted to a sailor senshi with a slightly more masculine outfit. Which, in my case wouldn’t have even included a skirt.



Yet another sexist, gender role rooted statement that’s wrong. The anime Revolutionary Girl Utena proved that the gender roles and responsibilities of a prince and a princess don’t have to be followed just because of the sex a character is born.

You managed to completely miss the point. Princess is little more than a title. No gender roles and responsibilities of a prince and princess don't have to be followed, but girls are still referred to as Princesses. And guys are still referred to as Princes. You're finding sexism where it's not at.

However, it is oh so relevant in this day and age and relates perfectly to this matter. You were originally trying to make the argument that being a senshi is the same thing and would grant the same advantages as being a sailor senshi….as long as you change the title the warrior takes because that's the "creator's rule". Which, is exactly the same wrong naïve attitude that more conservative religious people take with the whole issue of gay marriage, by arguing that gay people can still be together and just get a civil union, as long as they don’t take on the title of marriage because of what the bible says.

Marriage and a titular are two remotely completely different things. While on the subject if a civil union has all the same benefits as a marriage, does it really matter what it's called? I'm not saying that they do, but if you want to use this analogy Tuxedo Mask has a transformation sequence (albeit only used once )like a Senshi, he has powers like a Senshi (even more so in the manga) , he has a planet like a senshi, he has a star seed like a Senshi.

However, you aren’t taking into account the Gay male part of the Sailor Moon fan base that grew up watching and treasuring the show young. Not every male Sailor Moon fan is a part of the whole Brony phenomenon, and simply grew up wanting to watch girls do awesome things. In part because they could identify more with women than men, but also because they perhaps were more open minded to the idea of a female super heroine. Just because a show supposedly doesn't cater to and wasn't intended for certain types of fans doesn't mean we aren't out there, and that we don't have the right to take issue with such a singular, close minded attitude!

Kero does take that into account. Notice she said the intended target demographic. Just because Sailor Moon like many other works of fiction has an audience that overlaps from its target audience, doesn't mean it doesn't have a target audience. Sailor Moon was marketed and targeted toward girls. That doesn't mean guys can't watch them. Again you're crying SEXISM when none is there, at least on Kero's part. Also this:

However, you aren’t taking into account the Gay male part of the Sailor Moon fan base that grew up watching and treasuring the show young

Is just as bad as what you're accusing Kero and the show of. Implying that the only males who watch the show are gay.

You’re post is also sexist because you are making the assumption that all young girls aren’t interested in watching guys do awesome things, which again is naïve and a wrong stance to take as it’s stuck in gender stereotypical restrictions. My sister, for example was more of a DBZ fan growing up, where as I was the Sailor Moon fan.

No you're missing the point. Girls don't get as much representation in the super hero genre as guys do. So it's nice for girls to have have female characters to respond to. It doesn't mean they have to watch it or that they can't watch stuff with a boy target demographic in mind and prefer that. It's representation. It's why shows that started using black main characters got praise, and why the media is praising shows like Glee and Ugly Betty now for gay representation. When Sailor Moon came out girls really only had Wonder Woman (who never had a solo series outside of the comics) and She-Ra, who was a female counterpart to a male hero. Xena also came out the same year that Sailor Moon was brought over to North America.

 

[Remus Tsukino]

Re: Am I the only one who genuinely enjoys sexism in Anime?

However, it is oh so relevant in this day and age and relates perfectly to this matter. You were originally trying to make the argument that being a senshi is the same thing and would grant the same advantages as being a sailor senshi….as long as you change the title the warrior takes because that's the "creator's rule". Which, is exactly the same wrong naïve attitude that more conservative religious people take with the whole issue of gay marriage, by arguing that gay people can still be together and just get a civil union, as long as they don’t take on the title of marriage because of what the bible says.

Marriage and a titular are two remotely completely different things. While on the subject if a civil union has all the same benefits as a marriage, does it really matter what it's called? I'm not saying that they do, but if you want to use this analogy Tuxedo Mask has a transformation sequence (albeit only used once )like a Senshi, he has powers like a Senshi (even more so in the manga) , he has a planet like a senshi, he has a star seed like a Senshi.

If something looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and walks like a duck, chances are it is a duck.

 

[PurpleWarrior13]

However, you aren’t taking into account the Gay male part of the Sailor Moon fan base that grew up watching and treasuring the show young. Not every male Sailor Moon fan is a part of the whole Brony phenomenon, and simply grew up wanting to watch girls do awesome things. In part because they could identify more with women than men, but also because they perhaps were more open minded to the idea of a female super heroine. Just because a show supposedly doesn't cater to and wasn't intended for certain types of fans doesn't mean we aren't out there, and that we don't have the right to take issue with such a singular, close minded attitude!

I felt that way about the show (and Powerpuff Girls too for that matter), but who says every male (non-brony-esque) fan of the show is gay? I'm not, but I still enjoy the show for what it is (I'm not even a MLP fan). I was generally into girlier things when I was younger though like princess movies and Barbie dolls (even had a Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask doll). I was this way until I was about 7, but even then, I enjoyed Mew Mew Power when I was about 10-11, and have always loved the Powerpuff Girls (though anyone who's seen that show knows that it's not that girly at all). Other than PPG, I was into Scooby-Doo and DBZ, which are far from girly, but now I'm just rambling.

 

[Shiro Darklight]

Re: Am I the only one who genuinely enjoys sexism in Anime?

However, it is oh so relevant in this day and age and relates perfectly to this matter. You were originally trying to make the argument that being a senshi is the same thing and would grant the same advantages as being a sailor senshi….as long as you change the title the warrior takes because that's the "creator's rule". Which, is exactly the same wrong naïve attitude that more conservative religious people take with the whole issue of gay marriage, by arguing that gay people can still be together and just get a civil union, as long as they don’t take on the title of marriage because of what the bible says.

Marriage and a titular are two remotely completely different things. While on the subject if a civil union has all the same benefits as a marriage, does it really matter what it's called? I'm not saying that they do, but if you want to use this analogy Tuxedo Mask has a transformation sequence (albeit only used once )like a Senshi, he has powers like a Senshi (even more so in the manga) , he has a planet like a senshi, he has a star seed like a Senshi.

If something looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and walks like a duck, chances are it is a duck.

Aflac.

Marriage and civil union rights should both be available, by the way, but that's not the topic at hand. I wouldn't say Sailor Moon takes it to that point either, in the original, Haruka and Michiru were together, after all. I think the reason they didn't show more male heroes was because it was a story about Sailor Moon. There could have possibly been numerous males with star seeds in the universe, but she only came into contact with one. I don't think sexism was intended, though its hard to avoid it altogether no matter what series we are talking about here. Also, nothing Kero said was criticizing gay rights, you're kind of grasping with that one, its far fetched from what she said. Turning this into a homosexual rights debate would not only make it get rather heated quickly, but probably would not be the intent of the original poster either.

Sexism is "the prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex." That's a very broad category, but I don't think the show did only female sailor senshi to purposely offend or degrade men or women.

 

[abc123youandme]

For heavens sake, the one male character saved the asses of the female characters ALL THE TIME. How is the show degrading to men?

Sailor Uranus who is probably the physically strongest Sailor Senshi , and one of the most powerful major Sailor Senshi (I'd say of the main 11, only Moon, Saturn, and Pluto surpass her) has a stereotypical male gender role.


I can cite more examples of the show being sexist toward women than it is to men. But that's more do with values dissonance of Japan.

 

[Kerochan no Miko]

Yeeeaaaaaah CopeDog87, I'm just going to let you cuddle up to that straw man and enjoy yourself. Clearly you're not going to listen to anything other than what comes through your personal filters.

Also, moderator hat back on, please obey the forum rules and don't double post.

 

[Rika-Chicchi]

And again, no personal attacks - the next time I see any post here containing blatant personal attacks, it'll be cauldroned.

 

[Usapon]

^ Thread killers

 

[CopeDog87]

Re: Am I the only one who genuinely enjoys sexism in Anime?

You managed to completely miss the point. Princess is little more than a title. No gender roles and responsibilities of a prince and princess don't have to be followed, but girls are still referred to as Princesses. And guys are still referred to as Princes. You're finding sexism where it's not at.

First and foremost, your second sentence is grammatically incorrect. Secondly, if you watched Utena, you would know that she wanted to and was able to take on not only the role and responsibilities of a prince, but also the image of one despite being female. Besides, as ridiculous as it might sound to some of you, I DO think man would have the right to be unhappy with not being able to take on the title and role of being a princess if he wants to. Although a prince wouldn't necessarily have to follow all the gender rules and responsibilities, he more likely than not would still be unable to wear a dress.

Marriage and a titular are two remotely completely different things. While on the subject if a civil union has all the same benefits as a marriage, does it really matter what it's called? I'm not saying that they do, but if you want to use this analogy Tuxedo Mask has a transformation sequence (albeit only used once )like a Senshi, he has powers like a Senshi (even more so in the manga) , he has a planet like a senshi, he has a star seed like a Senshi.

First of all, I completely disagree with your first statement, as marriage in itself is a title couples take. Second, yes I do think it would still matter what a marriage / civil union would be called even if they granted equal benefits. The LGBT community shouldn't have to settle for a different title for their civil ceremony, as there is a clear separation between church and state. Thirdly, to get back on the topic of SM, even though Tuxedo Mask did indeed possess some of those similarities you mentioned to a sailor senshi, there was still enough differences to differentiate the two and not make them equal. In contrast, sailor senshi use wands and brooches to transform, have a tiara, and wore the completely different outfit of a sailor suit to a tuxedo. Plus like I mentioned earlier, Tuxedo Mask did not possess any magical powers in the anime, which put him at a huge disadvantage imo. Plus, even if he was just as strong as Sailor Moon, I still wouldn't be satisfied because I always preferred the idea of wearing a sailor outfit than a tuxedo while fighting bad guys.

Kero does take that into account. Notice she said the intended target demographic. Just because Sailor Moon like many other works of fiction has an audience that overlaps from its target audience, doesn't mean it doesn't have a target audience. Sailor Moon was marketed and targeted toward girls. That doesn't mean guys can't watch them. Again you're crying SEXISM when none is there, at least on Kero's part. Also this:

Is just as bad as what you're accusing Kero and the show of. Implying that the only males who watch the show are gay.

No you're missing the point. Girls don't get as much representation in the super hero genre as guys do. So it's nice for girls to have have female characters to respond to. It doesn't mean they have to watch it or that they can't watch stuff with a boy target demographic in mind and prefer that. It's representation. It's why shows that started using black main characters got praise, and why the media is praising shows like Glee and Ugly Betty now for gay representation. When Sailor Moon came out girls really only had Wonder Woman (who never had a solo series outside of the comics) and She-Ra, who was a female counterpart to a male hero. Xena also came out the same year that Sailor Moon was brought over to North America.

1. If you clearly read her post, she actually did not take that part of the fanbase into account. The only male demographic she refereed to were adult males.

2. Your second statement in that set of three is completely bogus and drawn from thin air. First of all, because like I mentioned in my point #1, Kero's statement clearly only talked about "adult males" being able to like Sailor Moon despite it's target audience. She didn't take into account sexual orientation, or the age those fans started watching the show.Secondly, because in my post I mentioned "Gay male PART" of the fanbase. A part certainly doesn't make a whole, so I was in no way shape or form implying all of Sailor Moon's male fans are Gay.

3. I actually agree with you that yes, it is indeed nice for girls to have positive super heroine role models to look up to growing up. However, turning this round full circle what I take issue with is Naoko's whole idea that ONLY girls can be sailor senshi. I don't like or support an idea such as that because I don't feel the sex a person is born should restrict or hold anyone back from being the person, or in this case kind of super hero they want to be. I would be just as upset and unsupportive of someone who tried to come up with a rule banning girls from being something only boys could be. Like say, from being a super hero at all.

P.S. Kero, as I clearly dissected and debated each and every one of your arguments, it clearly shows I did take the time to read your thoughts. I simply just did not come to agree with or support your point of view.

 

[Kerochan no Miko]

Okay, guys, discussions of gay marriage/civil unions/etc is edging a bit too close to forbidden territory here. This whole thread is hovering on the edge of getting locked, so tone it down and leave politics out of it, please.

 

[Rika-Chicchi]

Thread killers

Nah, I meant the post, not the thread.

BTW, this guy has exercised his male right to be a Sailor Senshi:

http://wikimoon.org/index.php?title=Sailor_Bubba

 

[Usapon]

Re: Am I the only one who genuinely enjoys sexism in Anime?

^ No, there can only be female senshi! (/provocation )

You managed to completely miss the point. Princess is little more than a title.

First and foremost, your second sentence is grammatically incorrect.

Doesn't seem so to me. Do tell me how it is incorrect. (Also: it's sort of cheap to pick on people's language during an argument if it isn't completely atrocious.)

 

[Leia the Rebel]

the show is about girls, so that is why the girls are sailor soldiers and that's why only girl are sailor soldiers since the FEMALE who made of the show said so, Naoko. well unless you count the time Zoisite Dressed up as Sailor Moon

 

[Rika-Chicchi]

the show is about girls, so that is why the girls are sailor soldiers and that's why only girl are sailor soldiers since the FEMALE who made of the show said so, Naoko. well unless you count the time Zoisite Dressed up as Sailor Moon

And the Phages, too.

 

[CopeDog87]

Re: Am I the only one who genuinely enjoys sexism in Anime?

Doesn't seem so to me. Do tell me how it is incorrect. (Also: it's sort of cheap to pick on people's language during an argument if it isn't completely atrocious.)

Whoops, I actually was referring to the third sentence in his or her paragraph. My bad, I wrote that long response at 2 am on a work night .

"No gender roles and responsibilities of a prince and princess don't have to be followed, but girls are still referred to as Princesses."

The use of the two negatives "No" and "don't" were what I was referring to. This error ended up making his or her point they were trying to write not easy to understand. It would have made much more grammatical sense if they would have started that sentence with either a "True, gender roles etc." or just eliminated the word "don't" altogether.

I can see what you're saying about being nit picky, but bad grammar truly does hurt your credibility in a written debate. Especially, when it ends up making the point you are trying to convey not easy to understand.

 

[Shiro Darklight]

Re: Am I the only one who genuinely enjoys sexism in Anime?

I can see what you're saying about being nit picky, but bad grammar truly does hurt your credibility in a written debate. Especially, when it ends up making the point you are trying to convey not easy to understand.

Not necessarily. Just because somebody forgets to put a comma somewhere does not mean that their logic is flawed.

Anyways, my memory is kind of foggy in Stars, but some of the Sailor Animates were male, weren't they?

 

[noildoof]

No, not in the anime or manga. There was one male... animamate?... well, bad-guy-working-for-Galaxia in Sera Myu. He was called MC Fly and sometimes was dressed as a fly.