Did some of the old dub’s gay censorship read to you as propoganda?

[ChampionOfNuggets]

I see propoganda is the new woke in terms of words this forum is going to overuse and misuse and run into the ground.

 

[MariaTenebre]

I see propoganda is the new woke in terms of words this forum is going to overuse and misuse and run into the ground.

I mean almost anytime a thread about Sailor Moon comes up especially certain things they don't like about the series many members and they know who they are basically complain the series isn't woke and written by a gender studies grad from California.

 

[Tsundereshipper]

I have always thought that Zoisite’s story, as it is told in the original version, deeply problematic. He is depicted as a vicious and mean villain and Beryl kills him in the worst possible way. I think the 90’s anime is homophobic and transphobic with its depictions of gay, trans and queer men.

Zoisite was pretty villainous true but all the other queer men featured in the 90’s anime were either neutral or some of the more sympathetic villains who ended up getting redeemed.

Fiore, Saphir, Fish-Eye, and Demande (if he counts) all ended up getting redemption arcs

Kunzite was the only other queer man who didn’t but even he wasn’t so bad as far as villains go, was just doing his job and wasn’t any worse than the straight (?) male villains who didn’t end up getting redeemed like Jadeite and Rubeus.

I don’t think Zoisite’s characterization is enough to say that Ikuhara was trying to portray queer men in a negative light, in fact he was the outlier and they were portrayed sympathetically more often than not.

Also if Mamoru counts as queer cause of his relationship with Fiore then he’s undoubtedly a prominent full-fledged queer “good guy.”

90’s anime Grandpa Hino is canonically queer as well and he’s also a good guy. (Rei makes a comment that he hits on anyone regardless of gender, though the fact that it’s minors more often than not is quite troublesome)

Sure they could have made them brothers or close friends but then they would have to cut every scene of them holding each other intimately. Why create more work for themselves? Its just easier to give Zoicite a female voice actor and have him referred to with female pronouns.

Okay, this point I’ll give you.

Having Sapphire randomly proclaim his love for Emerald is a bit out of pocket, I'l give you that. But given his later established relationship with Prisma its hardly shoving heterosexuality down anyone's throat.

This just further proves my point though. Optimum had to have known about his upcoming episode with Prisma, this should have been more than enough to prove Sapphire’s straightness. There was absolutely no need to invent another heterosexual ship out of nowhere that could never be resolved when far more neutral options for censorship of that scene existed.

Out of all my examples this change is probably the most blatant of shoving heterosexuality down kids throats because there exists no good alternative explanation as to why they censored the scene they did by directly flipping homosexuality into heterosexuality.

It’s like someone working at Optimum (or network censors themselves who maybe had direct input, I don’t know how these things work) had the bright idea that the more heterosexual romances you give a queer coded character the straighter they’ll seem. Like with the ad-nauseam repeat of “cousins” every two minutes, this change comes off like they were trying too hard to overcompensate for something.

1. Consider the context. The episode was about a first kiss. Michiru and Haruka are presented as more sophisticated mentor types. It makes sense for one of them to share their experience with their own first kiss

So why couldn’t they leave it as is when even in the original Michiru never actually reveals the gender of her first kiss?

2. Bisexuals exist. I think a lot of people would read Michiru or at least "Michelle" as bi anyways. Why can't she remember a past middle school boyfriend fondly? She didn't say "Girls should only kiss boys. If girls kissed girls and boys kissed boys it would be detrimental to society"

While I do think 90’s anime Michiru is probably bi, you’ve gotta be obtuse as hell to think Optimum rewrote the scene the way they did to give us some good “bisexual representation.”

Yes, you're overreacting. Absolutely none of this is propoganda. Not a single time did any of the characters make some sort of statement about relationships about heterosexual relationships being superior to homosexual relationships. If you want to get pissed at conservative propoganda go watch a Pureflix movie or read the Dailywire.

So yeah, with all that said, I don't really get the "propaganda" position (not just here, I've seen it elsewhere too) about the dub because the removal of gay characters also means the dub just... straight up doesn't comment on gay relationships at all. Like, I haven't watched the whole dub but I'm pretty sure you're not gonna see Sailor Says openly commenting that gay relationships/people are bad, that only heterosexual relationships are legitimate, etc

Propoganda isn’t always so blatantly direct, subtle propoganda exists too. As I said in my OP the two examples above would constitute as subliminal messaging/propoganda.

And lest you think I’m only picking on the old dub here I’ll even go out on a limb and say that some of the rewrites in the Viz redub could also be construed as propaganda, only coming from the other side. I think the dialogue changes in the R movie and the “Mako crushes on Haruka” episode to make the Inners seem more supportive of homosexuality than they actually are is inappropriate because it changes their original characterization.

3. Which is it? You're pissed that they left some sapphic subtext in but you're also complaining about a heterosexual agenda. Like...what?!?

I just find it strange that they did leave in all those suggestive scenes yet this was the one scene they suddenly switched gears and decided to gratuitously insert heterosexuality when it’s one of the few scenes that didn’t need to be changed and could’ve stayed as is.

I'll just point out that in the original Japanese version of the promise ring episode, Naru says if you give one to your boyfriend, you'll be together forever. In the dub, Molly says person you give it to, which feels a lot less heteronormative to me.

I always took this as another one of the dub’s attempts at “girl power/feminism” (much like female Zoycite’s characterization) and they were trying to make it seem like a guy could give it to his girlfriend as well rather than any sort of indirect inclusivity toward queer couples. (In Japan, culturally, class/promise rings and the like are usually expected to be given from the girl’s side only)

In S they still kept the in any context uncomfortable scene with "Lizzie" wanting to kiss anyone in reach. I think it was supposed to be funny, but to me it was bordering on disturbing.
They also made some odd changes, like making Tamasaburo into a girl, making Rini seem like she was in love with a girl instead of a boy. This was supposedly done because of the cross-dressing scene, which is literally like 2 seconds and hardly anything shocking even at the time it aired.

Credit where credit is due, they did keep in those scenes as well as the scene of Rei fawning over/flirting with Haruka in the Yuuichirou S episode after she already found out Haruka’s really a girl.

Though I’m not certain whether that was Optimum trying to skirt the censors as much as possible or just another example of the dub’s lazy editing while under the Cloverway banner.

I think it's legit to call the act of censoring depictions of gay couples homophobic in itself. But tbh I think today a lot of younger SM fans especially legit seem to not realize how controversial it would have been in the '90s for a mainstream kids' show dubbed/airing in North America to have openly gay couples at all, due to the common view then of that being an inherently adult/sexual concept. Yeah, obviously it's not, and while attitudes toward this have improved to the point that there are multiple examples of gay couples in NA kids' media now, it really was just how things were. And I think on the whole that's representative of homophobia on a societal/cultural/whatever scale, rather than coming entirely from Optimum specifically.

While I agree it’s technically homophobic it’s also not propoganda for all the reasons you and I said and more. I don’t think censorship in and of itself automatically qualifies as propoganda, especially when you consider the context of the time and place a product was released in. I don’t begrudge Optimum for doing what they had to do in order to get the show to air and not trigger all the Jesus Freak parents in our country, but you must agree that there’s certainly a way to handle censorship of politically controversial topics in the most sensitive manner as possible and I don’t think Optimum quite passed the test in these 3 specific examples I point out. Whatever their reasoning, censorship through the removal of the scenes altogether or the removal of any romantic references (Or in the case of the kissing talk scene just leave it as is because even the original wasn’t direct about it) is definitely more politically sensitive than taking what is an oppressed minority and just flipping them to be straight.

That’s what reads as propoganda to me, how they chose to censor said scenes rather than just the fact that they’re censored at all. If you watch these examples back to back comparing both the old dub and original Japanese (or Viz redub) how does it not come off like Optimum making a political statement to the kids that straight is great, and everyone should be straight, including them?

When more neutral options for erasure existed like I outlined above and yet they still chose the “promoting heterosexuality” route, I’m sorry but I don’t know how that can be read as anything but out and out propaganda to me. (Propoganda as defined by trying to brainwash the public into thinking a certain way on political issues)

And if you ask, the only reason why I’m not including Fish-Eye’s gender change in this like I am with Zoisite is because 1. This was actually a more sensitive change since Fish’s original portrayal could be construed as dangerously transphobic what with the use of the “trap” trope. and 2. There would’ve been no way to edit out the scenes with Fish like the above 3 because their targeting men was essential to their whole plot, it was either make it look straight or cut out all the Fish-Eye episodes entirely which wouldn’t make sense and would mess up the whole arc, so I cut them some slack here.

Also it has been YEARS since I watched R, what homosexual scene are you referring to between Esmeraude and Saphir?)

At the end of episode 83 in the original after Esmeraude let’s Sailor Moon escape from Demande’s grasp, Saphir appears in front of her and goes on an entire monologue on the dangers of jealousy and then at the end of it gets a dark, sardonic smirk on his face and admits that he feels the same way she does and also hates Sailor Moon. (Presumably out of jealousy, thereby all but directly confessing he has romantic feelings for Demande just like Esmeraude does)

Optimum/DIC changed this into him confessing his love to Esmeraude.

Honestly the biggest instance of anti gay “straight is great” propaganda I can remember from the 90’s anime is when Usagi straight up tells Makoto that she shouldn’t have a crush on Haruka because girls shouldn’t like girls or something like that.

While problematic, I think this is a reach considering the 90’s anime makes up for this fact by portraying a lot of the queer characters and couples in a positive light.

It could just be seen as an expression of Usagi’s characterization herself, as a girl who’s still deeply in the closet rather than an attempt at homophobic propaganda. (She contradicts it herself what with her interactions with Rei and feelings for Seiya)

The most egregious example of heterosexual propaganda in Sailor Moon is the first season of Crystal with the SenshixShittennou nonsense. KunZoi forever!

I dislike the Sen/Shi concept as much as everyone but this was definitely not propoganda, it was a leftover idea from the manga in which KunZoi were never even a thing in the first place.

Was it bad writing? Undoubtedly yes, but trying to misconstrue it as an attempt at homophobic erasure and propaganda is a bad faith take.

 

[Leia the Rebel]

even now days some people get their underwear in a bunch over a gay person and/or couple in a children's show. a few years ago in Disney's Good Luck Charlie, Charlie's playdate had two moms it was a super short scene, yet people sent hate over it.. they even sent it to Charlie who was like 4 at the time.

The 90's was a different time, in general, but also in regard to children's media. I think DIC and clover-way did what they had to do in order to get the show on air and fallow the FCC guidelines at the time. So, I don't think it was propaganda.

but clover-way doing the whole cousin's thing will not remove certain scenes that made it incest-looking. not to mention them making fisheye a female and leaving the shirtless scene in, more so at the time a women being shirtless was seen as bad. i think this comes from them bragging about not having censorship in the way of removing scene,

 

[Clow]

Zoisite was pretty villainous true but all the other queer men featured in the 90’s anime were either neutral or some of the more sympathetic villains who ended up getting redeemed.

Fiore, Saphir, Fish-Eye, and Demande (if he counts) all ended up getting redemption arcs

Kunzite was the only other queer man who didn’t but even he wasn’t so bad as far as villains go, was just doing his job and wasn’t any worse than the straight (?) male villains who didn’t end up getting redeemed like Jadeite and Rubeus.

I don’t think Zoisite’s characterization is enough to say that Ikuhara was trying to portray queer men in a negative light, in fact he was the outlier and they were portrayed sympathetically more often than not.

All gay/queer male characters with a major arc in both the manga and anime, with the exception of the Starlights, were (a) villains, (b) killed or (c) needed to redeem themselves.

 

[Tsundereshipper]

All gay/queer male characters with a major arc in both the manga and anime, with the exception of the Starlights, were (a) villains, (b) killed or (c) needed to redeem themselves.

Do Mamoru and Grandpa Hino in the 90’s anime not count as queer to you?

Also I wouldn’t count the Starlights as men in any sense of the word, in either version. In the 90’s anime they’re trans/genderfluid characters (so half male but not full) and in the manga they’re full on cis women.

 

[Clow]

Do Mamoru and Grandpa Hino in the 90’s anime not count as queer to you?

Nope.

And even if I considered Mamoru queer, I would still consider him weak and easily manipulated.

 

[Tsundereshipper]

Nope.

There is a literal line in the 90’s anime that mentions that Grandpa Hino hits on any young, good looking person regardless of gender. He is canonically bi or pan in the 90’s anime.

Or do you not count him because he’s not a major character and because he’s also portrayed rather unsavory?

And even if I considered Mamoru queer, I would still consider him weak and easily manipulated.

He’s still firmly a good guy, which counts for something. ( I know it’s debatable whether Mamoru is queer even in the 90’s anime but he certainly seemed to return Fiore’s feelings back when they were kids, plus this is Ikuhara we’re talking about here, he makes practically all his characters queer if he has the chance.)

 

[Clow]

There is a literal line in the 90’s anime that mentions that Grandpa Hino hits on any young, good looking person regardless of gender. He is canonically bi or pan in the 90’s anime.

Or do you not count him because he’s not a major character and because he’s also portrayed rather unsavory?

I forgot that line. In any event, I do not count him as major character and, yes, I believe he is portrayed rather unsavory.

He’s still firmly a good guy, which counts for something. ( I know it’s debatable whether Mamoru is queer even in the 90’s anime but he certainly seemed to return Fiore’s feelings back when they were kids, plus this is Ikuhara we’re talking about here, he makes practically all his characters queer if he has the chance.)

My personal interpretation of the R movie is that Mamoru and Fiore were strictly friends as children. Innocent and lonely children.

 

[Tsundereshipper]

My personal interpretation of the R movie is that Mamoru and Fiore were strictly friends as children. Innocent children.

I guess it can go either way but I saw Mamoru reciprocating Fiore’s crush back since he gave him a rose as a parting gift (typically a romantic coded gesture, sure it was originally from Usagi and her idea but I don’t think even a little straight boy would give another boy a flower as a token of affection) and also that one scene where they were sharing a bed and staring deep into each other’s eyes.

 

[Tsundereshipper]

I forgot that line. In any event, I do not count him as major character and, yes, I believe he is portrayed rather unsavory.

And to be completely fair to Ikuhara here I think the only reason why we don’t see as many genuinely good guy queer male characters when compared to female is because the series itself is comprised of a majority female cast, there’s barely any room for male characters period.

And Ikuhara likely also contributed to the creation of Crow and Seiren’s dynamic in the 90’s anime and those were two queer female villians, so I think it’s wrong to say only male queers were subjected to this treatment. Sure there were only two of them compared to the plethora of male queer villains in the 90’s anime (and they were also portrayed very sympathetically mind) but it just goes to show that Ikuhara/Toei wasn’t necessarily biased against queer men in particular. Even Haruka and Michiru could potentially count as bad guys, or at least morally ambiguous in the 90’s anime.

 

[Clow]

And to be completely fair to Ikuhara here I think the only reason why we don’t see as many genuinely good guy queer male characters when compared to female is because the series itself is comprised of a majority female cast, there’s barely any room for male characters period.

Don’t get me wrong. I love “Sailor Moon.” It was the first anime I watched. I love the manga, many episodes of the 90’s anime and I especially love Crysternal. However, I—personally—would have liked positive, affirming gay (or queer) male characters. CLAMP does a much better job.

 

[MariaTenebre]

Clow I don't think the lack of heroic gay male characters is due to homophobia. Like I stated elsewhere it is more so if anything due to sexism. Aside from Mamoru there aren't any heroic male characters. Tuxedo Mask is the only male Planetary Senshi on the show and no others were included so pretty much aside from the villains and some side characters (though the main side characters were abandoned in Sailor Stars mostly) the cast just was mostly female aside from the villains especially in plot stuff.

And again to me I found Zoisite to be a very cool badass character a far superior character then the endless gay victims in Western Morality tales.

 

[Clow]

Personally, I prefer Eagle Vision from “Magic Knight Rayearth.” He is a male character, gay and queer, voiced by a woman, Megumi Ogata (Sailor Uranus’s VA). He is a respected commander and appears to be in a relationship with Geo (he and Geo appear together in TRC, I assume they are a couple, but again CLAMP). He also seems to be deeply infatuated with Lantis. He is a villain, but ultimately—as a soldier—he battles Debonair and chooses to sacrifice himself to save Lantis, Hikaru and Cephiro. He ultimately dies as a war hero.

I prefer Eagle over Zoisite. Personal opinion, of course.

 

[Masquerade]

Just overreacting.
It was just people trying to introduce anime to the States and having no clue on how to do deal with LGBT content.
Funny enough, Toei/Kodansha apparently liked the KunZoi change enough to recommend it to other countries. Even countries that didn't do much censorship made Zoisite a woman. I don't know if DiC was the first one to make him a woman instead of trying to just change dialogues, but it definitely gave Japan an idea. The early dubs I recall making him a woman other than the obviously influenced by the English dub ones (BR Portuguese, LATAM Spanish) were the Italian, German and Swedish ones, and they all came out in 1995.

 

[kasumigenx]

Personally, I prefer Eagle Vision from “Magic Knight Rayearth.” He is a male character, gay and queer, voiced by a woman, Megumi Ogata (Sailor Uranus’s VA). He is a respected commander and appears to be in a relationship with Geo (he and Geo appear together in TRC, I assume they are a couple, but again CLAMP). He also seems to be deeply infatuated with Lantis. He is a villain, but ultimately—as a soldier—he battles Debonair and chooses to sacrifice himself to save Lantis, Hikaru and Cephiro. He ultimately dies as a war hero.

I prefer Eagle over Zoisite. Personal opinion, of course.

CLAMP likes killing or making gay characters outside of their BL focused manga be either friendzoned or killed but that is the opposite of that happens in their BL focused manga where the female that gets their gay characters attention either die or leave the plot.
Naoko focused on Yuri in Sailor Moon and after but not in her prior works which feature straight romance.

 

[MariaTenebre]

Well I do know in Cardcaptor Sakura they atleast had Touya and Yukito get together as a couple and not be killed, friendzoned etc so that is good.

Though again for Zoisite and Kunzite they were evil but their sexuality and their relationship was never depicted as evil or wrong. Quite the contrary it was depicted as a positive and sympathetic part of their characters.

They weren't written as "gay villains" they were written as villains who happen to be gay.

 

[kasumigenx]

Well I do know in Cardcaptor Sakura they atleast had Touya and Yukito get together as a couple and not be killed, friendzoned etc so that is good.

That was a first for them in a non-bl manga, CLAMP ended the manga version of MKR when it was starting to get obvious that Eagle is getting friendzoned by Lantis in favour of Hikaru.

 

[Clow]

Eagle Vision survives in the manga and dies heroically in the “Magic Knight Rayearth” anime.

Other interesting CLAMP pairings:

Kurogane x Fai (Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles)
At one point, it is established that Kurogane is the “father” and Fai is the “mother” of Sakura and Syaoran.

Watanuki x Doumeki (xxxHolic)
Watanuki attracts bad spirits, Doumeki repels them. After Watanuki decides to continue living at Yūko’s shop, Doumeki continues visiting and supporting him. Doumeki marries Kohane, but he is aware that his wife loves Watanuki.

Watanuki x Haruka (xxxHolic)
Haruka is Doumeki‘s deceased grandfather and he appears to Watanuki in Watanuki’s dreams. He actually flirts with Watanuki and saves Watanuki from trouble just like Doumeki does.

 

[Clow]

That was a first for them in a non-bl manga, CLAMP ended the manga version of MKR when it was starting to get obvious that Eagle is getting friendzoned by Lantis in favour of Hikaru.

Eagle loves Lantis, but Geo seems to love Eagle more than Eagle loves Lantis.

I like Lantis x Geo. Although it’s not confirmed that they are in a relationship, they are very close and both the manga and the anime suggest that they could be a couple.