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It is more complex than that. Most people may be open to experimenting with the same sex but prefer being with the opposite sex and again if people want to be sterilized they have that right.
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@MariaTenebre
I remember reading in the 2000s, a Lesbian Feminist Website in Japan saying that Sailor Moon does not reflect the Lesbian culture there, but now, Sailor Moon has influenced a majority of the Lesbian/Yuri manga in Japan.
I remember reading in the 2000s, a Lesbian Feminist Website in Japan saying that Sailor Moon does not reflect the Lesbian culture there, but now, Sailor Moon has influenced a majority of the Lesbian/Yuri manga in Japan.
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Which Drama CD was that from? I stand corrected then.
If the Drama CD’s do in fact include manga elements like that one mentioning Chibi-Usa being over 900 years old does, then this is most likely an attempt to include another manga element by hinting at Zoisite/Mercury by making Zoi bi.
Yes it is forced because like that Fruits Basket ship I showed you they’re only with each other due to destiny/circumstances, not because they’re actually compatible or like each other as people.
You still have yet to comment on why Demande did that sensual hairbrush gesture towards Saphir if he does in fact “not requite Saphir’s feelings back at all.”
Why would he need to do that when he could just hypnotize Saphir into obeying him by force? And if it was in fact just manipulation then why don’t we ever see him attempt to manipulate Esmeraude’s feelings for him too? Or try to win Sailor Moon over via manipulation rather than force? Don’t you think if he was smart enough to manipulate he would’ve already tried that?
Well then your ship is a sham then because the feelings are fake and weren’t real to begin with. Like I said, better a failed ship where the feelings were real for at least one of the two then one where they end up together but the feelings were fake all along.
Definitely not on Usagi’s part in the Makai Tree arc, she had to have all her memories brought back my Luna in order to start going gaga over Mamoru whereas before she thought he was an annoying jerk and was crushing on Ail.
Honestly the Moonlight Knight in and of itself was a stupid idea and just a filler plot-point made in a filler arc that was used to explain how Mamoru and the girls got their memories back after Classic’s finale, I wouldn’t take it too seriously, it feels forced and cringe. And of course UsaMamo would get something like that and not Demande/Saphir when they’re the main characters and couple and Demande are Saphir are minor villains who only get 12 and 10 episodes worth of screen-time each.
Didn’t you read how I explained he didn’t even get the chance to because he was still too caught off guard by Wiseman’s sudden disobedience and thought he would obey his orders to stop?
Again the only reason why they thought it wasn’t pedophilic was because they thought he was just humoring her, they didn’t actually believe he was her boyfriend because he didn’t behave like one in that episode and was treating her exactly like Chibi-Usa who’s his actual daughter!
It does, in fact look pedophilic because the 90’s anime aged up Mamoru, made Usagi way more immature and childish than she was in the manga and also had Mamoru treat Usagi like a daughter the same way he does Chibi-Usa.
This isn’t even my subjective opinion it objectively looks more pedophilic from how it was in the manga, or why else do you think so much of the fandom complains of how their relationship is portrayed in the 90’s anime and that it ruined it? Like it’s not just me, even non “woke” fans of Sailor Moon have described it’s portrayal as creepy.
I mean hell, their relationship looks so age inappropriate there have been myths for years now circulating around the internet pinning Mamoru as older than he really is in the anime when he only got aged up from 16 to 18. I’ve seen casual fans literally assume he’s in his 20’s, 30’s or even 40’s! And that’s precisely because of the way their relationship is written in the 90’s anime with the gaping wide maturity gap and Mamoru and Usagi’s character portrayals in general.
No one ever assumes InuKag is pedophilic or that Kagome is much older than Inuyasha because she’s more mature, neither do they do Momoko and Yousuke, no it’s only UsaMamo who gets the scrutiny and there’s a reason why.
I don’t insist, if Naoko truly says she’s not non-binary then she’s not. I’m simply confused as to why she keeps repeating how Haruka has the “soul of both a man and a woman” and drew her incredibly androgynous and switching between a Tuxedo and regular Senshi uniform in the beginning.
I have no problems if Manga Haruka is intended to be a cis female like her 90’s anime counterpart, I’m simply confused by Naoko’s terminology and presentation of it.
How many times do we have to tell you that the Prince Uranus garbage is not in any way, shape or form similiar to interpreting Manga Haruka as non-binary? The Prince Uranus theory posits that Haruka was a full cis man in her previous life whereas non-binaries/genderfluids/androgynous/hermaphrodites/intersex are half male and female.
Completely different theories.
The only flirty banter they exchanged before finding out their identities and regaining their memories was in the elevator scene in episode 34, please post more evidence as to where this other “flirty banter” is?
True which is why I always say even in the manga and PGSM they could be done better and I would really like a version where they start out falling for their civilian selves before either one of them finding out about their superhero alter-ego.
Still again, the major difference is that in the manga Mamoru finds out Usagi’s identity as Sailor Moon very quickly before he could even get a chance to get attached to that form as Tuxedo Mask and he was never even that mean or annoyed by her in their civilian lives like in the 90’s anime.
No, I’m saying it because he was older than her, smug, and rarely phased by her the way it would go in an actual equal exchange. If this were really the case then why don’t I have a problem with Inuyasha or Yousuke “bullying” Kagome and Momoko?
Didn’t Michiru literally state in Stars that Haruka dislikes popular men?
There’s a difference between parents who are already divorced by the time the story begins and those who deliberately plan it in order to just to have a child together. One is a matter-of-fact while the other would be considered age inappropriate because it leading into the topic of sex and how babies are made.
Because she’s what’s ultimately tying them down and anyone could be Chibi-Usa’s father as she feels more like just Usagi’s daughter than Mamoru’s too.
I love those things, they only really mean something if they come from the person’s own natural choice and free will though. Frankly I find it much more romantic to choose someone against all odds because you’re just that attracted to them because they’re them rather than simply be tied together to them because of circumstances or destinies. Or why else do you think forbidden love tropes are so popular?
Having the freedom to choose your partner based on who they are doesn’t equal treating your partner as disposable, where do you get these ideas from? In fact the opposite, the destined lovers trope treats partners as far more disposable because like that Fruits Basket panel I showed you, you could simply swap them in and out depending on the circumstances tying you together and one wouldn’t even care. When you choose your partner yourself out of your own free will it’s because you’re attracted solely to the kind of person they are and nothing else, and nobody can replace them.
Yes I know, I choose to interpret it as a virgin birth though because I find it more interesting and it would perfectly parallel Usagi with Galaxia in the manga by having her find out that they weren’t so different after all and just like Galaxia Usagi’s Star Seed was originally weak and broken and it was only due to Queen Serenity finding it and taking it to the Cauldron to get “fixed” that she managed to be reborn as the most powerful Star Seed in the universe.
Cool, then actually show that and have them develop real feelings for each other in their civilian forms where they start to outright date without the aid of the memories of their destiny.
Yeah that’s not healthy for a relationship. And again if Mamoru knows his girlfriend is prone to jealousy then why doesn’t he ever try to reassure her?
Again that’s not jealousy because they’re not fearing the other would prefer their kidnapper over them, that’s simple protectiveness.
Well yeah, even in that manga it’s a trope like the couple I used as an example. That doesn’t mean Japanese writers aren’t waking up to the ridiculousness of the idea and poking fun of it because they’re self-aware of how cringe it looks in the modern world.
When did Saphir ever show contempt for Esmeraude in the anime? On the contrary he actually expressed solidarity with her over their shared feelings for Demande in episode 83 and I like to think he considered her as something of a friend. The only “contempt” he showed towards her was being annoyed at her laugh, ego/haughtiness and the fact that she would slack off on her work, which really anyone would. He held no personal contempt for her otherwise.
You forgetting that Drama CD where they literally wrote and made fun of Mamoru preferring almost anyone over Usagi and viewing her as a pet? That’s what I was referring to.
Except it’s literally canon that the BMC become a mutated race in the 90’s anime that have to be “cleansed” of their powers in order to be let back onto Earth.
So why did that mangaka poke fun of it on that page I showed you and had her JAPANESE characters react like it’s cringe?
Nope, read the manga instead of just watching the anime since the anime removed this scene leading to the confusion that Inuyasha only loves Kagome because she’s Kikyo’s reincarnation:
And again, Rumiko has literally confirmed in interviews that Kagome and Kikyo are not in fact the same person and she didn’t think too deeply about the reincarnation aspect and neither should you, Inuyasha is more a story of second love and moving on from grief, not destined reincarnated lovers. Rumiko subverted the whole reincarnation aspect and it’s not meant to be as big of a deal the way you’re making it. Kagome herself states over and over again that she’s Kagome and nobody else.
So why aren’t Japanese women divorcing men left and right if this is in fact the case?
Buddhism then, which was literally influenced by Hinduism and exported over to East Asia.
Again I would feel better about this if we were actually shown them falling in love in both their past lives and present, however in every Sailor Moon incarnation it’s simply taken as a matter of fact that Endymion and Princess Serenity were always together in the past and we’re never actually shown the process of how they fell in love. That’s the only way one can actually pull off destined lovers correctly because this isn’t the type of trope where you can have them already be an established couple like say KunZoi are introduced in the anime because for something as big as “destined reincarnated lovers” the audience has to be shown why these two are tied together and what makes their love so powerful as to even transcend lifetimes.
Which I would argue that even if InuKag were the reincarnated destined lovers trope (which they’re not) they work because we’re actually shown how they fell in love both as Kikyo and Kagome.
We don’t get that for Princess Serenity and Endymion or even for UsaMamo in most versions of the story and that’s why they suck as a destined couple and don’t portray the trope correctly.
I’m sorry when did they ever have “hot and flirty moments” Tuxedo Mask and Sailor Moon? Even in their superhero forms the most we got was Usagi swooning and crushing over Tuxedo Mask and Mamoru himself not even sure why he feels compelled to protect her but is being driven to it with no choice of his own anyways, nor is he even aware of it for much of his time as a civilian. (Yet another aspect showing how their relationship is literally forced)
Expect the part where he was straight up mean to her about it, come to think of it that’s the episode where Usagi outright questions whether her and Mamoru are really compatible outside of destiny.
They outright sleep together in the manga.
Nope, remember the hand-playing scene and the scene where they touched noses? Honestly the only reason why we don’t get a kiss between them is because of squeamish double standards depicting same-sex affection on the same level as hetero, otherwise you just know HaruMichi would’ve been making out every chance they could get on the show.
Yes it does because describing their personality traits and/or physical appearance is stuff unique to that person in particular that not everyone could have. It’s being vague on purpose because you’re only with that person because of circumstances and not who they are as people so you can’t even think of any other way to describe them.
Like with that Fruits Basket manga page I showed you, it was a very deliberate choice that the mangaka made to have the guy use the wording of “I wish I could’ve dreamed of someone like you” instead of “I wish I could’ve loved.” The reason why she went with the former rather than the latter is to show how a prophecy dream based on destiny/circumstances is a very interchangeable thing that anyone could’ve been in and filled the role of and is the only thing tying the guy together with his lover rather than natural love. It’s like I say I’ve no doubt Mamoru would’ve been with anyone who turned out to be the Moon Princess, it didn’t have to be just Usagi, if it was say Rei, he would definitely still be together with her.
Both these types of wording “I should’ve dreamed of you” and “It feels wonderful to be around you/she has a lot of dreams” are incredibly interchangeable ways to describe one’s love for a person and are not unique traits.
And again it’s not even true Usagi has “a lot of dreams” she’s the least ambitious person alive and simply wants to be a stay at home housewife and laze away her days so when he tries to come up with a reason for loving Usagi Mamoru can’t even get that incredibly vague and interchangeable trait right! Which goes to show just how little he knows her.
When asked to describe why they love their girlfriends Mamoru can only attribute his love to very vague non-commital statements just like Fruits Basket guy can only attribute his love to a prophecy dream - neither of them can even say they love their girlfriends for any unique traits that she possesses in personality or appearance that nobody else could have, sad!
How is it a double standard when I literally just called out and dragged Fruits Basket dude for also not being to attribute any unique traits as to why he fell for his girlfriend (couldn’t even say the word “loved” had to be “dreamed”) and attributing it all to circumstantial prophecy dream which anyone could’ve happened to fill if they were in the right place at the right time?
When does he ever say this? The only thing he ever says in regards to why he loves Usagi is because “She has a lot of dreams” and “She feels wonderful to be around and gives me a family.” Literally nothing else. And considering how uncomfortable he gets whenever they hang out together to the point where he’s outright ignoring her in favor of his book in the S movie when she’s seeking his advice, it certainly doesn’t seem like he even likes her on a personable level.
Doesn’t change the fact he didn’t want to be there at all at first.
How? She only saw Usagi and Mamoru interact as civilians twice. And one of those times it was her actively joining in on his teasing of her.
How could they “break up” without Mamoru’s direct input on the matter when he wasn’t even there??? She just decided that for the both of them unilaterally.
Because Evil Endymion in the manga was zombified from the start. Beryl and Metalia only zombified Mamoru after they realized regular brainwashing where he’s allowed to retain his personality and consciousness wouldn’t work.
Still not a choice he made of his own free will, literally just the Tuxedo Mask protective instincts kicking in stemming from how they’re destined lovers in a past life. Again further proving my point that their love is unnatural and forced.
Where?! I don’t recall Mamoru ever once “pouting,” even in Classic when he was at his least mature.
Not to the extent InuKag become best friends though, which is what I was comparing their relationship to.
A choice he again never made on his own band wasn’t even aware of.
No they have that same love/hate dynamic (something which even UsaMamo never really had as civilians because they most certainly didn’t love each other before getting their memories) as best friends because unlike UsaMamo they become extremely comfortable around each other and actively want to hang around each other.
I mean where do you ever see UsaMamo calling out each other’s names as much as InuKag does?
I can easily refute Kagome is the same person as Kikyo on this point and this one point alone:
If Kagome and Kikyo were fundamentally the same then Kagome wouldn’t have loved and accepted Inuyasha for being a hanyou and would’ve wanted him to turn full human like Kikyo did. She didn’t though, she repeatedly says that she likes/loves Inuyasha the way he is and him being a hanyou doesn’t matter to her (why she even prefers it because of his cute ears which she likes to play with!) whereas Kikyo merely tolerated him being hanyou but would’ve preferred him as a full human and was ultimately racist towards him.
Kagome doesn’t have a racist bone in her body and fully embraced hanyou and even full demons despite coming from a time where they’re seemingly extinct and she didn’t even know what they were.
This literally never happens and she never glomps onto him again in that arc after the first few times because she realized it scares him off.
Not me, I’m not looking for a partner because I have a hole in my life needing to be filled and I’m empty without them, but simply because I enjoy the intimacy of being close with another person and becoming one with them.
Not enough sufficient evidence of this or why does he look so uncomfortable whenever they’re out on dates and openly ignores her like in the S movie?
Not chosen if he’s literally compelled to protect her out of an in-born instinct imprinted on him because of destiny that he himself sometimes isn’t even aware of.
Where does he try to gain an identity of his own and live in the present rather than cling on to long-lost memories before regaining his memories?
Which we never see. Where are all these other “sides” to him? Because from where I’m standing his getting with Usagi actually sucks the personality out of him and he simply becomes a boring, stoic, mature dad type.
Demande yes but when was Saphir ever a monster to Demande or outside of his relationship with him?
I literally just debunked that with that manga panel I posted in this reply.
Sailor Moon is for Tuxedo Mask for sure but Tuxedo Mask doesn’t portray any particular feelings for Sailor Moon outside of his compelled instincts to protect her, hell he’s even willing to betray her if it means gathering all the Rainbow Crystals for the Princess in his dreams and getting his memories back.
Maybe because they barely know each other in this life yet? It’s as ridiculous a concept as declaring your eternal love towards a fetus who hasn’t even been born yet simply because you saw them in a prophecy dream like in Fruits Basket. How can you already be so in with love someone you barely know? It’s silly and unrealistic.
And I’m saying there should be in order for us to truly buy into their romance, or at least develop Endymion and Serenity’s relationship and show how they fell in love in the past.
Where does he blush? I’ve rewatched that scene and I can find no blushing from him, just a smile.
He never does though, those two things are the only things he says about her when asked what he loves about her.
Usagi outright laments to herself that they’re incompatible in the freaking babysitting episode!
Cool, then we should be shown this through how they fell in love in their past life rather than just being told they were. Which we never do for either of these couples.
Not close enough for my satisfaction.
Which I bet he only had because he was so grateful to her for saving him from Beryl.
Read or watch Fruits Basket to see for yourself then, the series is good otherwise but if you want just a broad description:
With the couple in question the dude is basically only in love with his girlfriend/wife because she came to him in a prophetic dream foretelling her arrival on the night of her conception and that dream made the boy feel strong feelings because of a curse that bound their souls together in a previous life - a curse that also bound 11 other people but they didn’t have the same reaction to the strong feelings that dream incited like this boy did because the boy like Mamoru feels empty inside and has a disconnect of self and is looking for something, anything to make him feel and fill the void so he, like Mamoru expects prophecy dream girl to fix his life instead of fixing it himself and by living in the present and trying to appreciate and fully engage himself in the life he has now.
And just like with UsaMamo the Fruits Basket couple in question is incompatible on all other levels besides this dream with the dude being wayy too mature and wise beyond his years (even as a child!) and is an intellectual Gary-Stu and his lover is an immature, childish crybaby who is prone to throwing temper tantrums and isn’t near his IQ level who she also looks to him towards as a father figure originally. In fact this couple is so similar to UsaMamo that I often get the feeling the mangaka somehow took inspiration from them but turned it into a darker, twisted version, (you’ll see what I mean once you read or watch it) which I don’t know why she would because the Miracle Romance is the perfect example of one of those aspects of Sailor Moon that just doesn’t work as demonstrated by how this ship was a flop too. (And like UsaMamo it’s the most unpopular and disliked canon ship in the Western fandom for pretty much all the same reasons) They are wayy more similar as a couple to UsaMamo than InuKag is.
It’s not a false comparison because just like the man in question is only with his lover due to the circumstances of she happening to be the one who was in that prophetic supernatural dream, so too are UsaMamo only together in the 90’s anime because they just happen to be the reincarnations of Princess Serenity and Prince Endymion and because of their supernatural destiny.
In both cases it was only circumstances bringing them together that could’ve easily been swapped out with anyone else rather than them liking each other as people.
Nope, it’s different because there’s no rule or force compelling them that says family members have to like/love each other. On the contrary, a lot of siblings are born and stay bitter enemies and never manage to get along, Demande and Saphir are close not just because they’re brothers but because they got to know each other as people and came to like each other for who they are.
I actually do headcanon that they started out actively disliking each other (because I’m a sucker for mutual tsundere relationships and dislike to love) and do think this fits their personalities and even current relationship where we see them getting mad at each other a lot.
Regardless of whether they’re actual brothers or not I like to headcanon that they were raised separately for most of their early childhood because Saphir is either an illegitimate half brother or was adopted,
And at first Saphir doesn’t want anything to do with Demande and dislikes him immensely, they get off on the wrong foot as their personalities clash and Saphir thinks Demande is a spoiled, selfish, pompous, arrogant and idiotic ass. (Maybe he also resents him for being first in line for the throne when he feels he doesn’t deserve it and Saphir himself feels he could do MUCH better by their people?)
Demande for his part is both annoyed and intrigued by Saphir, annoyed because Saphir is always criticizing and lecturing him (like we see in-series) but at the same time he’s ALSO the first person who isn’t blinded by Demande’s title and isn’t falling over themselves to kiss his ass, he’s the first person who’s ever dared to stand up to Demande and call him out on his bullshit all while simultaneously ignoring his orders if he doesn’t like/agree with them, and it’s both shocking to Demande at first but also surprisingly refreshing?
Like here’s someone who he has to actually EARN the respect of and it both pisses him off but makes him wanna rise to the challenge. (And I think this could also explain his attraction to NQS - his tastes can basically be boiled down to “are they a challenge/don’t automatically simp for me?” lol :joy
So what led to Saphir coming to trust Demande and eventually falling in love? I’m still working out the details of that but I was thinking maybe Saphir sees
Demande protect him from a monster/assasination attack and that’s when he starts to warm up to him and see he’s really kind at heart? By the time of that flower scene Saphir seems to already adore Demande so I’m thinking maybe this happened a few months back when they both became wandering orphans and now only had each other to rely on? (Let’s even say their parents were secretly assassinated by Wiseman).
That’s still Momoko and Yousuke coming to be attracted to each other as people without a destined past life getting in the way and tying them together forcing the audience to question whether their feelings for each other are really sincere.
Nope, because she loves Inuyasha because he’s a hanyou while Kikyo merely tolerated that aspect of him and didn’t love him fully or truly.
Then so be it, I wouldn’t even be mad because at least I’d have the knowledge that Inuyasha came to love Kagome for herself independent of Kikyo even if he ultimately preferred Kikyo in the end. Like I said before my ships being cucked don’t even bother me so long as there was always genuine feelings there.
They don’t actually, the only way we know Demande and Saphir might be brothers is because of the Nii-San term Saphir uses to address Demande.
Okay this one you got me on and you’re right, I didn’t think of that. This is probably the best evidence that they’re meant to be actual brothers in the 90’s anime too.
It’s more likely he simply wasn’t born with the title of Prince because he’s illegitimate and isn’t first in line for the throne.
Why wouldn’t they be? Nemesis is an actual civilization and people in the 90’s anime unlike in the manga where the BMC are simply civilian teenage political dissenters who abandon the Earth for the desolate prison planet that is Nemesis in that version.
I like to headcanon that anime Demande gets his title because he’s a direct descendant of Princess Diamond and thus is Prince of the Diamond Kingdom, hence his name and even the hairstyles are similar.
And that’s fine just make sure you actually show how they fell in love in the Silver Millenium too or else it’ll be hard for the audience to buy into that destiny.
Only exasperated that’s the thing, no other reactions once they become a couple, you know like a dad with his daughter?
Also you forgot to respond to my bringing up that SuperS Dentist episode where in a blatant display of this outright parental behavior Mamoru’s instinct is to check Usagi’s mouth for cavities and lecture her about going to the Dentist rather than kissing her which was what she was actually puckering up for.
But how could he have loved Usagi independent of his past life memories of them as Endymion and Serenity when he barely even knew her back in Classic?
Only Sailor Moon did not Tuxedo Mask and even then they still barely knew each other so it was more like just a strong crush or attraction on Sailor Moon’s part.
Barely, most of the time Mamoru treats Usagi like a daughter the same way he treats Chibi-Usa rather than a lover. Usagi is the one who has to initiate most of their romantic moments which he a lot of the times either misinterprets or acts uncomfortable about and he is never lovey-dovey or outright affectionate with her, on the contrary he treats hanging out with her like a chore and has his nose in a book during it or tries to get away from her like during their tripwhereas Inuyasha and Kagome actively want to hang out with each other and are always paying attention to the other.
If the Drama CD’s do in fact include manga elements like that one mentioning Chibi-Usa being over 900 years old does, then this is most likely an attempt to include another manga element by hinting at Zoisite/Mercury by making Zoi bi.
Yes it is forced because like that Fruits Basket ship I showed you they’re only with each other due to destiny/circumstances, not because they’re actually compatible or like each other as people.
You still have yet to comment on why Demande did that sensual hairbrush gesture towards Saphir if he does in fact “not requite Saphir’s feelings back at all.”
Why would he need to do that when he could just hypnotize Saphir into obeying him by force? And if it was in fact just manipulation then why don’t we ever see him attempt to manipulate Esmeraude’s feelings for him too? Or try to win Sailor Moon over via manipulation rather than force? Don’t you think if he was smart enough to manipulate he would’ve already tried that?
Well then your ship is a sham then because the feelings are fake and weren’t real to begin with. Like I said, better a failed ship where the feelings were real for at least one of the two then one where they end up together but the feelings were fake all along.
Definitely not on Usagi’s part in the Makai Tree arc, she had to have all her memories brought back my Luna in order to start going gaga over Mamoru whereas before she thought he was an annoying jerk and was crushing on Ail.
Honestly the Moonlight Knight in and of itself was a stupid idea and just a filler plot-point made in a filler arc that was used to explain how Mamoru and the girls got their memories back after Classic’s finale, I wouldn’t take it too seriously, it feels forced and cringe. And of course UsaMamo would get something like that and not Demande/Saphir when they’re the main characters and couple and Demande are Saphir are minor villains who only get 12 and 10 episodes worth of screen-time each.
Didn’t you read how I explained he didn’t even get the chance to because he was still too caught off guard by Wiseman’s sudden disobedience and thought he would obey his orders to stop?
Again the only reason why they thought it wasn’t pedophilic was because they thought he was just humoring her, they didn’t actually believe he was her boyfriend because he didn’t behave like one in that episode and was treating her exactly like Chibi-Usa who’s his actual daughter!
It does, in fact look pedophilic because the 90’s anime aged up Mamoru, made Usagi way more immature and childish than she was in the manga and also had Mamoru treat Usagi like a daughter the same way he does Chibi-Usa.
This isn’t even my subjective opinion it objectively looks more pedophilic from how it was in the manga, or why else do you think so much of the fandom complains of how their relationship is portrayed in the 90’s anime and that it ruined it? Like it’s not just me, even non “woke” fans of Sailor Moon have described it’s portrayal as creepy.
I mean hell, their relationship looks so age inappropriate there have been myths for years now circulating around the internet pinning Mamoru as older than he really is in the anime when he only got aged up from 16 to 18. I’ve seen casual fans literally assume he’s in his 20’s, 30’s or even 40’s! And that’s precisely because of the way their relationship is written in the 90’s anime with the gaping wide maturity gap and Mamoru and Usagi’s character portrayals in general.
No one ever assumes InuKag is pedophilic or that Kagome is much older than Inuyasha because she’s more mature, neither do they do Momoko and Yousuke, no it’s only UsaMamo who gets the scrutiny and there’s a reason why.
I don’t insist, if Naoko truly says she’s not non-binary then she’s not. I’m simply confused as to why she keeps repeating how Haruka has the “soul of both a man and a woman” and drew her incredibly androgynous and switching between a Tuxedo and regular Senshi uniform in the beginning.
I have no problems if Manga Haruka is intended to be a cis female like her 90’s anime counterpart, I’m simply confused by Naoko’s terminology and presentation of it.
How many times do we have to tell you that the Prince Uranus garbage is not in any way, shape or form similiar to interpreting Manga Haruka as non-binary? The Prince Uranus theory posits that Haruka was a full cis man in her previous life whereas non-binaries/genderfluids/androgynous/hermaphrodites/intersex are half male and female.
Completely different theories.
The only flirty banter they exchanged before finding out their identities and regaining their memories was in the elevator scene in episode 34, please post more evidence as to where this other “flirty banter” is?
True which is why I always say even in the manga and PGSM they could be done better and I would really like a version where they start out falling for their civilian selves before either one of them finding out about their superhero alter-ego.
Still again, the major difference is that in the manga Mamoru finds out Usagi’s identity as Sailor Moon very quickly before he could even get a chance to get attached to that form as Tuxedo Mask and he was never even that mean or annoyed by her in their civilian lives like in the 90’s anime.
No, I’m saying it because he was older than her, smug, and rarely phased by her the way it would go in an actual equal exchange. If this were really the case then why don’t I have a problem with Inuyasha or Yousuke “bullying” Kagome and Momoko?
Didn’t Michiru literally state in Stars that Haruka dislikes popular men?
There’s a difference between parents who are already divorced by the time the story begins and those who deliberately plan it in order to just to have a child together. One is a matter-of-fact while the other would be considered age inappropriate because it leading into the topic of sex and how babies are made.
Because she’s what’s ultimately tying them down and anyone could be Chibi-Usa’s father as she feels more like just Usagi’s daughter than Mamoru’s too.
I love those things, they only really mean something if they come from the person’s own natural choice and free will though. Frankly I find it much more romantic to choose someone against all odds because you’re just that attracted to them because they’re them rather than simply be tied together to them because of circumstances or destinies. Or why else do you think forbidden love tropes are so popular?
Having the freedom to choose your partner based on who they are doesn’t equal treating your partner as disposable, where do you get these ideas from? In fact the opposite, the destined lovers trope treats partners as far more disposable because like that Fruits Basket panel I showed you, you could simply swap them in and out depending on the circumstances tying you together and one wouldn’t even care. When you choose your partner yourself out of your own free will it’s because you’re attracted solely to the kind of person they are and nothing else, and nobody can replace them.
Yes I know, I choose to interpret it as a virgin birth though because I find it more interesting and it would perfectly parallel Usagi with Galaxia in the manga by having her find out that they weren’t so different after all and just like Galaxia Usagi’s Star Seed was originally weak and broken and it was only due to Queen Serenity finding it and taking it to the Cauldron to get “fixed” that she managed to be reborn as the most powerful Star Seed in the universe.
Cool, then actually show that and have them develop real feelings for each other in their civilian forms where they start to outright date without the aid of the memories of their destiny.
Yeah that’s not healthy for a relationship. And again if Mamoru knows his girlfriend is prone to jealousy then why doesn’t he ever try to reassure her?
Again that’s not jealousy because they’re not fearing the other would prefer their kidnapper over them, that’s simple protectiveness.
Well yeah, even in that manga it’s a trope like the couple I used as an example. That doesn’t mean Japanese writers aren’t waking up to the ridiculousness of the idea and poking fun of it because they’re self-aware of how cringe it looks in the modern world.
When did Saphir ever show contempt for Esmeraude in the anime? On the contrary he actually expressed solidarity with her over their shared feelings for Demande in episode 83 and I like to think he considered her as something of a friend. The only “contempt” he showed towards her was being annoyed at her laugh, ego/haughtiness and the fact that she would slack off on her work, which really anyone would. He held no personal contempt for her otherwise.
You forgetting that Drama CD where they literally wrote and made fun of Mamoru preferring almost anyone over Usagi and viewing her as a pet? That’s what I was referring to.
Except it’s literally canon that the BMC become a mutated race in the 90’s anime that have to be “cleansed” of their powers in order to be let back onto Earth.
So why did that mangaka poke fun of it on that page I showed you and had her JAPANESE characters react like it’s cringe?
Nope, read the manga instead of just watching the anime since the anime removed this scene leading to the confusion that Inuyasha only loves Kagome because she’s Kikyo’s reincarnation:
And again, Rumiko has literally confirmed in interviews that Kagome and Kikyo are not in fact the same person and she didn’t think too deeply about the reincarnation aspect and neither should you, Inuyasha is more a story of second love and moving on from grief, not destined reincarnated lovers. Rumiko subverted the whole reincarnation aspect and it’s not meant to be as big of a deal the way you’re making it. Kagome herself states over and over again that she’s Kagome and nobody else.
So why aren’t Japanese women divorcing men left and right if this is in fact the case?
Buddhism then, which was literally influenced by Hinduism and exported over to East Asia.
Again I would feel better about this if we were actually shown them falling in love in both their past lives and present, however in every Sailor Moon incarnation it’s simply taken as a matter of fact that Endymion and Princess Serenity were always together in the past and we’re never actually shown the process of how they fell in love. That’s the only way one can actually pull off destined lovers correctly because this isn’t the type of trope where you can have them already be an established couple like say KunZoi are introduced in the anime because for something as big as “destined reincarnated lovers” the audience has to be shown why these two are tied together and what makes their love so powerful as to even transcend lifetimes.
Which I would argue that even if InuKag were the reincarnated destined lovers trope (which they’re not) they work because we’re actually shown how they fell in love both as Kikyo and Kagome.
We don’t get that for Princess Serenity and Endymion or even for UsaMamo in most versions of the story and that’s why they suck as a destined couple and don’t portray the trope correctly.
I’m sorry when did they ever have “hot and flirty moments” Tuxedo Mask and Sailor Moon? Even in their superhero forms the most we got was Usagi swooning and crushing over Tuxedo Mask and Mamoru himself not even sure why he feels compelled to protect her but is being driven to it with no choice of his own anyways, nor is he even aware of it for much of his time as a civilian. (Yet another aspect showing how their relationship is literally forced)
Expect the part where he was straight up mean to her about it, come to think of it that’s the episode where Usagi outright questions whether her and Mamoru are really compatible outside of destiny.
They outright sleep together in the manga.
Nope, remember the hand-playing scene and the scene where they touched noses? Honestly the only reason why we don’t get a kiss between them is because of squeamish double standards depicting same-sex affection on the same level as hetero, otherwise you just know HaruMichi would’ve been making out every chance they could get on the show.
Yes it does because describing their personality traits and/or physical appearance is stuff unique to that person in particular that not everyone could have. It’s being vague on purpose because you’re only with that person because of circumstances and not who they are as people so you can’t even think of any other way to describe them.
Like with that Fruits Basket manga page I showed you, it was a very deliberate choice that the mangaka made to have the guy use the wording of “I wish I could’ve dreamed of someone like you” instead of “I wish I could’ve loved.” The reason why she went with the former rather than the latter is to show how a prophecy dream based on destiny/circumstances is a very interchangeable thing that anyone could’ve been in and filled the role of and is the only thing tying the guy together with his lover rather than natural love. It’s like I say I’ve no doubt Mamoru would’ve been with anyone who turned out to be the Moon Princess, it didn’t have to be just Usagi, if it was say Rei, he would definitely still be together with her.
Both these types of wording “I should’ve dreamed of you” and “It feels wonderful to be around you/she has a lot of dreams” are incredibly interchangeable ways to describe one’s love for a person and are not unique traits.
And again it’s not even true Usagi has “a lot of dreams” she’s the least ambitious person alive and simply wants to be a stay at home housewife and laze away her days so when he tries to come up with a reason for loving Usagi Mamoru can’t even get that incredibly vague and interchangeable trait right! Which goes to show just how little he knows her.
When asked to describe why they love their girlfriends Mamoru can only attribute his love to very vague non-commital statements just like Fruits Basket guy can only attribute his love to a prophecy dream - neither of them can even say they love their girlfriends for any unique traits that she possesses in personality or appearance that nobody else could have, sad!
How is it a double standard when I literally just called out and dragged Fruits Basket dude for also not being to attribute any unique traits as to why he fell for his girlfriend (couldn’t even say the word “loved” had to be “dreamed”) and attributing it all to circumstantial prophecy dream which anyone could’ve happened to fill if they were in the right place at the right time?
When does he ever say this? The only thing he ever says in regards to why he loves Usagi is because “She has a lot of dreams” and “She feels wonderful to be around and gives me a family.” Literally nothing else. And considering how uncomfortable he gets whenever they hang out together to the point where he’s outright ignoring her in favor of his book in the S movie when she’s seeking his advice, it certainly doesn’t seem like he even likes her on a personable level.
Doesn’t change the fact he didn’t want to be there at all at first.
How? She only saw Usagi and Mamoru interact as civilians twice. And one of those times it was her actively joining in on his teasing of her.
How could they “break up” without Mamoru’s direct input on the matter when he wasn’t even there??? She just decided that for the both of them unilaterally.
Because Evil Endymion in the manga was zombified from the start. Beryl and Metalia only zombified Mamoru after they realized regular brainwashing where he’s allowed to retain his personality and consciousness wouldn’t work.
Still not a choice he made of his own free will, literally just the Tuxedo Mask protective instincts kicking in stemming from how they’re destined lovers in a past life. Again further proving my point that their love is unnatural and forced.
Where?! I don’t recall Mamoru ever once “pouting,” even in Classic when he was at his least mature.
Not to the extent InuKag become best friends though, which is what I was comparing their relationship to.
A choice he again never made on his own band wasn’t even aware of.
No they have that same love/hate dynamic (something which even UsaMamo never really had as civilians because they most certainly didn’t love each other before getting their memories) as best friends because unlike UsaMamo they become extremely comfortable around each other and actively want to hang around each other.
I mean where do you ever see UsaMamo calling out each other’s names as much as InuKag does?
I can easily refute Kagome is the same person as Kikyo on this point and this one point alone:
If Kagome and Kikyo were fundamentally the same then Kagome wouldn’t have loved and accepted Inuyasha for being a hanyou and would’ve wanted him to turn full human like Kikyo did. She didn’t though, she repeatedly says that she likes/loves Inuyasha the way he is and him being a hanyou doesn’t matter to her (why she even prefers it because of his cute ears which she likes to play with!) whereas Kikyo merely tolerated him being hanyou but would’ve preferred him as a full human and was ultimately racist towards him.
Kagome doesn’t have a racist bone in her body and fully embraced hanyou and even full demons despite coming from a time where they’re seemingly extinct and she didn’t even know what they were.
This literally never happens and she never glomps onto him again in that arc after the first few times because she realized it scares him off.
Not me, I’m not looking for a partner because I have a hole in my life needing to be filled and I’m empty without them, but simply because I enjoy the intimacy of being close with another person and becoming one with them.
Not enough sufficient evidence of this or why does he look so uncomfortable whenever they’re out on dates and openly ignores her like in the S movie?
Not chosen if he’s literally compelled to protect her out of an in-born instinct imprinted on him because of destiny that he himself sometimes isn’t even aware of.
Where does he try to gain an identity of his own and live in the present rather than cling on to long-lost memories before regaining his memories?
Which we never see. Where are all these other “sides” to him? Because from where I’m standing his getting with Usagi actually sucks the personality out of him and he simply becomes a boring, stoic, mature dad type.
Demande yes but when was Saphir ever a monster to Demande or outside of his relationship with him?
I literally just debunked that with that manga panel I posted in this reply.
Sailor Moon is for Tuxedo Mask for sure but Tuxedo Mask doesn’t portray any particular feelings for Sailor Moon outside of his compelled instincts to protect her, hell he’s even willing to betray her if it means gathering all the Rainbow Crystals for the Princess in his dreams and getting his memories back.
Maybe because they barely know each other in this life yet? It’s as ridiculous a concept as declaring your eternal love towards a fetus who hasn’t even been born yet simply because you saw them in a prophecy dream like in Fruits Basket. How can you already be so in with love someone you barely know? It’s silly and unrealistic.
And I’m saying there should be in order for us to truly buy into their romance, or at least develop Endymion and Serenity’s relationship and show how they fell in love in the past.
Where does he blush? I’ve rewatched that scene and I can find no blushing from him, just a smile.
He never does though, those two things are the only things he says about her when asked what he loves about her.
Usagi outright laments to herself that they’re incompatible in the freaking babysitting episode!
Cool, then we should be shown this through how they fell in love in their past life rather than just being told they were. Which we never do for either of these couples.
Not close enough for my satisfaction.
Which I bet he only had because he was so grateful to her for saving him from Beryl.
Read or watch Fruits Basket to see for yourself then, the series is good otherwise but if you want just a broad description:
With the couple in question the dude is basically only in love with his girlfriend/wife because she came to him in a prophetic dream foretelling her arrival on the night of her conception and that dream made the boy feel strong feelings because of a curse that bound their souls together in a previous life - a curse that also bound 11 other people but they didn’t have the same reaction to the strong feelings that dream incited like this boy did because the boy like Mamoru feels empty inside and has a disconnect of self and is looking for something, anything to make him feel and fill the void so he, like Mamoru expects prophecy dream girl to fix his life instead of fixing it himself and by living in the present and trying to appreciate and fully engage himself in the life he has now.
And just like with UsaMamo the Fruits Basket couple in question is incompatible on all other levels besides this dream with the dude being wayy too mature and wise beyond his years (even as a child!) and is an intellectual Gary-Stu and his lover is an immature, childish crybaby who is prone to throwing temper tantrums and isn’t near his IQ level who she also looks to him towards as a father figure originally. In fact this couple is so similar to UsaMamo that I often get the feeling the mangaka somehow took inspiration from them but turned it into a darker, twisted version, (you’ll see what I mean once you read or watch it) which I don’t know why she would because the Miracle Romance is the perfect example of one of those aspects of Sailor Moon that just doesn’t work as demonstrated by how this ship was a flop too. (And like UsaMamo it’s the most unpopular and disliked canon ship in the Western fandom for pretty much all the same reasons) They are wayy more similar as a couple to UsaMamo than InuKag is.
It’s not a false comparison because just like the man in question is only with his lover due to the circumstances of she happening to be the one who was in that prophetic supernatural dream, so too are UsaMamo only together in the 90’s anime because they just happen to be the reincarnations of Princess Serenity and Prince Endymion and because of their supernatural destiny.
In both cases it was only circumstances bringing them together that could’ve easily been swapped out with anyone else rather than them liking each other as people.
Nope, it’s different because there’s no rule or force compelling them that says family members have to like/love each other. On the contrary, a lot of siblings are born and stay bitter enemies and never manage to get along, Demande and Saphir are close not just because they’re brothers but because they got to know each other as people and came to like each other for who they are.
I actually do headcanon that they started out actively disliking each other (because I’m a sucker for mutual tsundere relationships and dislike to love) and do think this fits their personalities and even current relationship where we see them getting mad at each other a lot.
Regardless of whether they’re actual brothers or not I like to headcanon that they were raised separately for most of their early childhood because Saphir is either an illegitimate half brother or was adopted,
And at first Saphir doesn’t want anything to do with Demande and dislikes him immensely, they get off on the wrong foot as their personalities clash and Saphir thinks Demande is a spoiled, selfish, pompous, arrogant and idiotic ass. (Maybe he also resents him for being first in line for the throne when he feels he doesn’t deserve it and Saphir himself feels he could do MUCH better by their people?)
Demande for his part is both annoyed and intrigued by Saphir, annoyed because Saphir is always criticizing and lecturing him (like we see in-series) but at the same time he’s ALSO the first person who isn’t blinded by Demande’s title and isn’t falling over themselves to kiss his ass, he’s the first person who’s ever dared to stand up to Demande and call him out on his bullshit all while simultaneously ignoring his orders if he doesn’t like/agree with them, and it’s both shocking to Demande at first but also surprisingly refreshing?
Like here’s someone who he has to actually EARN the respect of and it both pisses him off but makes him wanna rise to the challenge. (And I think this could also explain his attraction to NQS - his tastes can basically be boiled down to “are they a challenge/don’t automatically simp for me?” lol :joy
So what led to Saphir coming to trust Demande and eventually falling in love? I’m still working out the details of that but I was thinking maybe Saphir sees
Demande protect him from a monster/assasination attack and that’s when he starts to warm up to him and see he’s really kind at heart? By the time of that flower scene Saphir seems to already adore Demande so I’m thinking maybe this happened a few months back when they both became wandering orphans and now only had each other to rely on? (Let’s even say their parents were secretly assassinated by Wiseman).
That’s still Momoko and Yousuke coming to be attracted to each other as people without a destined past life getting in the way and tying them together forcing the audience to question whether their feelings for each other are really sincere.
Nope, because she loves Inuyasha because he’s a hanyou while Kikyo merely tolerated that aspect of him and didn’t love him fully or truly.
Then so be it, I wouldn’t even be mad because at least I’d have the knowledge that Inuyasha came to love Kagome for herself independent of Kikyo even if he ultimately preferred Kikyo in the end. Like I said before my ships being cucked don’t even bother me so long as there was always genuine feelings there.
They don’t actually, the only way we know Demande and Saphir might be brothers is because of the Nii-San term Saphir uses to address Demande.
Okay this one you got me on and you’re right, I didn’t think of that. This is probably the best evidence that they’re meant to be actual brothers in the 90’s anime too.
It’s more likely he simply wasn’t born with the title of Prince because he’s illegitimate and isn’t first in line for the throne.
Why wouldn’t they be? Nemesis is an actual civilization and people in the 90’s anime unlike in the manga where the BMC are simply civilian teenage political dissenters who abandon the Earth for the desolate prison planet that is Nemesis in that version.
I like to headcanon that anime Demande gets his title because he’s a direct descendant of Princess Diamond and thus is Prince of the Diamond Kingdom, hence his name and even the hairstyles are similar.
And that’s fine just make sure you actually show how they fell in love in the Silver Millenium too or else it’ll be hard for the audience to buy into that destiny.
Only exasperated that’s the thing, no other reactions once they become a couple, you know like a dad with his daughter?
Also you forgot to respond to my bringing up that SuperS Dentist episode where in a blatant display of this outright parental behavior Mamoru’s instinct is to check Usagi’s mouth for cavities and lecture her about going to the Dentist rather than kissing her which was what she was actually puckering up for.
But how could he have loved Usagi independent of his past life memories of them as Endymion and Serenity when he barely even knew her back in Classic?
Only Sailor Moon did not Tuxedo Mask and even then they still barely knew each other so it was more like just a strong crush or attraction on Sailor Moon’s part.
Barely, most of the time Mamoru treats Usagi like a daughter the same way he treats Chibi-Usa rather than a lover. Usagi is the one who has to initiate most of their romantic moments which he a lot of the times either misinterprets or acts uncomfortable about and he is never lovey-dovey or outright affectionate with her, on the contrary he treats hanging out with her like a chore and has his nose in a book during it or tries to get away from her like during their tripwhereas Inuyasha and Kagome actively want to hang out with each other and are always paying attention to the other.
I will respond to more of your posts soon Tsundereshipper specifically the ones from the past to now but you are wrong Usagi and Mamoru are not the most unpopular ship in the Western fandom. Actually they are the most popular ship. Most Western fans do ship them it is just a small but prominent minority that does not. In fact Seiya/Usagi used to be more popular then it was till people saw the series and saw the true nature of their relationship and now Usagi and Mamoru are even more popular even though there are some woke Western anti fans like you who are against it.
Also in terms of the Destined Lovers troupe most people in Japan find it romantic. Some may disagree but they are a tiny minority just like feminists and Communists are and people certainly aren't turning against it en masse. That mangaka dosen't represent most Japanese people anymore than those people mad at Uzaki Chan do.
After all Hayao Miyazaki is a very popular anime writer and mangaka but he for the majority of his career was a staunch Communist and while his movies are popular and some contain Communist themes, Communism is over all despised by Japanese both traditional and Liberal Japanese alike.
In fact even Liberal Japanese are more traditional liking ideas like Destined Lovers and hating feminism, wokeism and Communism. Many while even being non religious still adhere to certain religious ideas like participating in Shintoism, Buddhism etc. I have even seen some Japanese People who call themselves "Atheists" but pray to the Gods and even believe in a afterlife, who even consult Priests, Psychics etc.
Also in the Fruits Basket situation if they were happy in their former lives and a loving couples then they should be in this life and unlike them Usagi and Mamoru are and never complain about each other but love their company,
Also in terms of the Destined Lovers troupe most people in Japan find it romantic. Some may disagree but they are a tiny minority just like feminists and Communists are and people certainly aren't turning against it en masse. That mangaka dosen't represent most Japanese people anymore than those people mad at Uzaki Chan do.
After all Hayao Miyazaki is a very popular anime writer and mangaka but he for the majority of his career was a staunch Communist and while his movies are popular and some contain Communist themes, Communism is over all despised by Japanese both traditional and Liberal Japanese alike.
In fact even Liberal Japanese are more traditional liking ideas like Destined Lovers and hating feminism, wokeism and Communism. Many while even being non religious still adhere to certain religious ideas like participating in Shintoism, Buddhism etc. I have even seen some Japanese People who call themselves "Atheists" but pray to the Gods and even believe in a afterlife, who even consult Priests, Psychics etc.
Also in the Fruits Basket situation if they were happy in their former lives and a loving couples then they should be in this life and unlike them Usagi and Mamoru are and never complain about each other but love their company,
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Also Usagi and Mamoru do have many of the same interests. While Mamoru is more intellectual then Usagi, he and Usagi do have many fun things they like to do. They have had fun playing in arcades, going on that virtual shooter game in The Makai Tree arc taking care of cats and doing other shared hobbies and fun together. Once more yes Usagi was mad at Mamoru for being engrossed in his book but he wasn't deliberately ignoring her. He was reading again because he has too for his studies and while Usagi had doubts that Mamoru enjoyed spending time with her, he showed her doubts have no merit and that he did love spending time with her and even kissed her. They are very compatible intellectually and again you don't need to have all the same interests to be a good couple. Also Usagi is no retard and again not everyone wants a person to be as mature as they are. You can have a couple where they have vastly different maturity levels and they work out well.
Also they do say these are things they love about one another. In fact they have said before why they love one another.
Also that is nonsense you do see Mamoru on dates with Usagi laughing, having fun and being goofy and Mamoru even motivates Usagi to try to apply herself more in life, in school etc. Also in SuperS everyone acted less mature then they were so that isn't a good comparison. However in Crystal Tokyo it is even stated that Neo Queen Serenity often plays hookey on certain matters of state and gets King Endymion to come along with her for the adventure so that debunks you right there.
Also Usagi has stated why she loves Mamoru IE that he is suave, regal, he protects her and she likes guys more mature then she is and he is very romantic and loving to her
Mamoru has listed qualities as to why he loves Usagi and yes they are specific to her. By the same token no quality you can list about a person can ever be truly about them alone specifically as many people on the planet share the same qualities. It is yet more of your double standards in that you have rules for couples you don't like that you don't apply to couples you do like.
He dosen't act like Usagi is a psycho for glomping on to him. He is just surprised and embarassed because he is a more reserved man but as it goes on he shows he actually like spending time with Usagi and grows to even like her glomping on to him even though he tries to hide it.
Again he never "grounded her from dates" he basically just stated in a nice way that while Usagi was doing the interest exams he will hold off going on dates with her till she gets her grades up. Also again scolding your romantic partner and calling them out isn't acting like a parent. Once more Mamoru is very affectionate and loving to Usagi while they are on dates.
Also it is not acting like a father asking Usagi and Chibiusa to go to the dentist it is just being a good boyfriend and future father. Which again I would check my lover's mouth for cavities too. I wouldn't want to kiss them while they have cavities or bad breath that is just yucky and he isn't acting like a dad more again like a boyfriend with a more immature wife checking on her. Also you and some other anti fans may see them as acting like father and daughter but they act no more like father and daughter then other similar couples like Ricky Riccardo and Lucy Riccardo, Dharma and Gregg etc or even a gender reversed example like Marge and Homer from The Simpsons or Bob and Linda Belcher from Bob's Burgers. Once more I would rather my boyfriend treat me like his daughter then as a pet like how Kagome treats Inuyasha or like a subordinate he slings around like how Demand treats Saphir. Also Usagi and Mamoru do have many dates where they act like a couple and have lovey dovey scenes. Where as Inuyasha and Kagome have next to none of those things and in many cases only have romantic scenes when there is something serious going on and Inuyasha is being brainwashed etc. Inuyasha and Kagome act even less like a couple then Usagi and Mamoru and again act more like bickering friends where as Usagi and Mamoru are very lovey dovey and even go on dates together etc. In fact just aside from certain moments of trial Inuyasha and Kagome show even less PDA towards each other then Usagi and Mamoru and even seem embarassed to do so because even when they become a "couple" they still act like they don't like each other and do the love/hate thing. This dosen't happen with Usagi and Mamoru once they become a couple.
Also Mamoru really dosen't get exaspperated at Usagi much unless she does something crazy and yes other couples do get exassperated with their love interests. Honestly Naru gets exaspperated with Umino even more then Mamoru does Usagi but she loves him dearly. Ikuko likewise does so to Kenji when he is acting extra and Luna certainly does with Artemis as well.
Because being treated as a daughter atleast has some dignity. Being treated as a disobedient pet is degrading and dehumanizing and being treated like a subordinate you can kick around is abusive. Plus I have Father/Son incest kink and a Daddy kink anyway.
Yes but your arguement was that it made sense for Kagome to treat Inuyasha as a dog because he is "half dog" yet Sesshomaru is a full dog demon and he dosen't act at all as beast like or immature as Inuyasha.
Oh Minako is immature and childish as Usagi just in different ways. Minako is more likely to act like a out of control brat or a Yankee and tell off people and fight. Honestly Minako is stated to many times act like a American or a Yankee which is not a compliment as Japanese people in many cases see Americans as out of control, overly aggressive, rude and with no care for etiquette or politeness. Honestly for all the crap Makoto gets about being seen as a delinquent by many people Minako honestly acts more like a delinquent then Makoto does.
We do see the other girls acting cute and goofy to try and attract men. Point in fact Umino acts as goofy as Usagi which in many cases annoys Naru even more then how Mamoru gets exaspperated with Usagi but she does love him.
Also it is considered normal for many girls to act goofy and cute and in fact one of the reasons why in almost any shojo series you see the main girl character acting like Usagi whether it be other characters like Hikaru from Rayearth, Sakura from Cardcaptor Sakura, Momoko from Wedding Peach or Miaka from Fushigi Yuugi is that the treats Usagi has are considered ideal for Japanese girls and young women. Also Saori and Kobayashi doubted Usagi and Mamoru's relationship because of how different they were but the episode showed Usagi and Mamoru were a good couple and Saori was even convinced by the end.
It is very infantile. Zoisite was cuddling up to Kunzite like a father seeing comfort from his son. It was very infantilized. Kunzite even held him practically like a father holding his son.
Again the entire radio dramas are non canon. The only reason you are trying to shoe horn them in as canon is because of your hatred for Usagi and Mamoru's relationship and how it big ups Saphir having a thing for Demand.
Also again what makes you think that if Mamoru told the truth to Usagi about the dreams that this would change anything? If anything what probably would happen and what Mamoru even figured would happen is that Usagi would disregard the dreams and even say that she dosen't care if she dies young so long as she can be with Mamoru and given that Mamoru loves Usagi he can't bear to see that happen. Plus like I stated before Mamoru was raised for a good portion of his life in a orphanage so this has made him more introverted, guarded and not having very good social skills and honestly many orphanages are terrible places to grow up in even in the good ones.
Mamoru basically tried being firm to Usagi that they were broken up but she kept coming around so he had to be harsher on her he was in no means a emotionally abusive douche. Honestly what would your solution be. Have him stay with Usagi knowing that his presence would cause her death that would make him even worse.
Usagi would cry at times when Rei said something she found too mean. Hell she would even do so with Shingo or even her family because Usagi is more of a cry baby character then Kagome or Momoko.
Rei specifically stated that Mamoru would be a good match for her as he was a good student, with good money and having good prospects in society. Nothing so much about him but seeing him as a good match by societies standards.
Oh no that is wrong many people can look the same and even have the same physical appearances. Hell with Usagi alone Minako practically looks like a clone of the girl and plenty of people have people in real life who look just like them and who aren't even related to them. You can even see this in certain celebs like how Jeffrey Dean Morgan looks like the twin brother of Javier Bardem. Ditto for actress Zooey Deschanel and Katy Perry. Hell when I was at the mall one time I saw a woman who looked just like actress Crystal Bernard famous for her role in Wings. I even asked the woman if she was her and she said no but she gets that alot.
I even have a friend who is the spitting image of Vanity aka the singer from the 80s So yeah people can easily have the same appearances almost looking like the twins of other people. So no even an appearance isn't exclusive to one person. Honestly no quality you have is exclusive to you other people all around the world can have it.
Also Usagi and Mamoru aren't bound based on their position and role. They love each other because they loved each other before in another lifetime and are always bound to one another out of mutual love. Not based on their roles. In fact their love was even a forbidden love from the start.
Also saying a person has alot of dreams is a statement for their ambition. Usagi has a adventurous spirit and wants to do and accomplish many things. She wants to be a stay at home housewife but again in your American mind you fail to know that a stay at home housewife IS considered a profession in Japan and a position of power at that as the housewife is in many cases the manager of the house with the husband being forced by societal expectations to give all of his money to the wife who then manages what he and the kids can spend it on.
By meaning that Usagi has alot of dreams it means that she has adventurous bright dreams for her own life and the man she loves living together in happiness with her and her friends which she accomplishes in Crystal Tokyo
Also as this video will show you being a Housewife is what most women want to be in Japan and really the Housewives run Japanese families. Most women don't want to work hard but have their husband give him his money so they can go and hangout at caffees with their friends.
Literally when you marry a woman in Japan she becomes your boss and if you all divorce you are required to pay her alimony and child support and in the case of children there is no shared custody in Japan and the wife pretty much always custody of the children. Honestly Japan favors women even more in marriage then husband. Also the reason women aren't marrying men much anymore in Japan isn't because they want feminism or want Western "agency" it is because the salaries are much lower now in Japan so it is harder to find a man to be your ATM in Japan and women expect the man to be their ATM and wallet.
Also why is it not ambitious to be a housewife. You know that is the ambition of most women in Japan IE to have a husband, be a housewife and to raise a happy healthy family. The only reason you don't consider this ambitious is because you are a Western feminist. In fact Western feminists have long degraded and shamed housewives. Usagi is ambitious for her life and her future which is why Mamoru says she has many dreams the only reason you don't consider her so is because you don't approve of her dreams.
Also I will say this if you don't want to be a wage slave with your attitude you will have a hard time finding a man who will support you if you even like a man or really have a hard time finding a woman. Because agency in the way you see it and marriage are incompatible.
Mamoru blushes around Usagi many times not just even then but in the finale of classic when she threw her test paper at him again. In fact Mamoru was shown smiling and blushig at Usagi many times out of love and attraction where in the case of the big boob lady he only blushed out of lust and embarassment not really that different from the episode in the Rainbow Crystal's arc when Sailor Jupiter was blushing at having Sailor Mercury' ass in her face though in the latter's case that was more embarassment as I don't believe that Makoto is bisexual.
Oh yes people that opposite can be good couples and work out. I have seen several in real life and in fictional media. In fact many people want partners who are nothing like them. Which again Usagi and Mamoru treat each other far better then how Kagome and Inuyasha treat each other and actually act like a couple and even show PDA more then just when something serious happens or Inuyasha is brainwashed.
People can act timid and embarassed when called out by a person for having bad behavior. That is not them disciplining the other person. In fact Usagi's own friends do no different and call her out for bad behavior which embarasses her. That is not discipline.
Also that is a like Saphir is just as mature as Mamoru is and much of him lashing out at Demand is due to his own jealousy. Really Demand dosen't even lash out at Saphir out of jealousy but rather Demand lashes out at Saphir for not being a good subordinate. So there relationship is even worse then Usagi and Mamoru's relationship and way more dysfunctional. Also Mamoru isn't jealous of Usagi because again Mamoru isn't the jealous type. Some people have more issues of jealousy then others and honestly the fact that Mamoru isn't the jealous type helps weigh down Usagi's own insecurities.
Bullshit Mamoru was never abusive to Usagi in the Breakup Arc he was harsh to her to protect her life from dying by being with him. Meanwhile Demand blasted Saphir against a wall for being disobedient. Hell Kagome makes Inuyasha sit like a disobedient animal dehumanizing him in the regular.
Honestly the only example of abuse you could ever give for Usagi and Mamoru is again when Usagi slaps him for forgetting her birthday that she never told him about. However again the fact is that it is way more societally acceptable for women to slap men then vice versa. Honestly it was treated as no different they Rei or Usagi's fights or when Luna would scratch Usagi or threaten to kick her ass for not following her orders in a mission etc.
However again I would chalk this up to permissive societal misandry as well as Usagi's immature and entitled side coming out. However in this same video she learns what a jackass she has been and even apologizes to Mamoru. Mamoru on the other hand because of his devoted love for Usagi dosen't even blame her he just goes to get her those highly expensive Cinderella shoes she wants because he loves her that much as a boyfriend. Honestly that is proof that they don't act like parent and child because no parent would ever tolerate their own child slapping them. Unless the kid is one of those extreme delinquents we see on Maury etc which Usagi isn't even. However again it is societally acceptable in the US and in Japan for women to hit men they are with. In fact when women hit men in public most people assume he did something to deserve it aka victim blaming.
I mean even though I am anti feminism as I am anti MRA the MRAs have a point that feminists fought against the social obligations put on women by patriarchal society but never gave up the privilege, protection etc that patriarchal society gave them as women. In essence proving the saying that feminists and even some non feminist women want the power of being men, the privilege and protection of being women and the responsibilities of childen.
What does sinking to the ground have to do with anything. Usagi would have crying tantrums at times when people like Rei, Luna, Shingo etc said something to upset her. That is worse then sinking to the ground.
Oh Demand does know how to manipulate people he does so with people in the Black Moon Clan quite well especially with Esmeraude and Saphir. However he wasn't able to manipulate Usagi into being with him because she dosen't love him and never will love him.
Also he dosen't have to hypnotize Esmeraude as she is all ready head over heels with him and will do whatever he asks so that is a phoney comparison.
Likewise he dosen't have to hypnotize Saphir either manipulation can do better as he is all ready under his thumb.
Also you are reading too much into it. The gesture isn't necessarily sensual it is most likely Demand just showing affection to Saphir but it isn't necessarily sexual. Saphir may have taken it as sexual but it wasn't intended and Demand shows no attraction to Saphir at all. Making the relationship completely one sided.
In fact honestly now I don't ship Demand and Saphir. Even if I brought them back to life in my story which I won't save in my adaptation of Another Story where they will die off anyway even if I did I would probably pair them with other people. Maybe even having Saphir get with Petz or even another male character and putting Demand with someone else too.
Honestly I don't even think it is a flirty gesture anymore. I think that Demand just intended it as brotherly affection even if Saphir took it another way. I don't think now that Demand had any attraction to Saphir. I think it was all one sided on Saphir's part.
Also no dad would tolerate their child slapping him. If anything they would have to be the pushover parents like you see in the Maury bad kids episode. This was more like a wife slapping her husband for offending her.
Usagi being as jealous as she is isn't healthy. In fact jealousy isn't good at all and one thing Usagi has tried to do is tone down her jealous nature. If anything it is much more healthy to act as how Mamoru behaves. Hell the jealousy that Inuyasha and Kagome show isn't healthy but that is more of an issue with their own character. Usagi being jealous and Mamoru not being jealous at all isn't innately unhealthy except that jealous is unhealthy.
Also Mamoru and Fiore do not have a good dynamic and meaningful relationship. They were friends when they were younger and because of that Fiore now thinks that he can swoop in and take Mamoru all for himself. Also we have no real indication that Fiore had any feelings for Mamoru other then friendship but even if he did he would basically be nothing more then a male Beryl at best. In fact you could arguably call Demand, Beryl and Fiore as rapists given that they don't take no for an answer. The only arguably saving grace for them is that you could argue they were being manipulated by Wiseman/Death Phantom, Queen Metalia and the Xenian Flower Which isn't a good dynamic and meaningful relationship. Plus since you decry Mamoru and Usagi for having different interests what evidence do you have that Mamoru and Fiore share the same interests. Honestly they were only together as children as friends. Given that Fiore has been across space he may have very different interests from Mamoru just being a space gypsy alone.
Also they do say these are things they love about one another. In fact they have said before why they love one another.
Also that is nonsense you do see Mamoru on dates with Usagi laughing, having fun and being goofy and Mamoru even motivates Usagi to try to apply herself more in life, in school etc. Also in SuperS everyone acted less mature then they were so that isn't a good comparison. However in Crystal Tokyo it is even stated that Neo Queen Serenity often plays hookey on certain matters of state and gets King Endymion to come along with her for the adventure so that debunks you right there.
Also Usagi has stated why she loves Mamoru IE that he is suave, regal, he protects her and she likes guys more mature then she is and he is very romantic and loving to her
Mamoru has listed qualities as to why he loves Usagi and yes they are specific to her. By the same token no quality you can list about a person can ever be truly about them alone specifically as many people on the planet share the same qualities. It is yet more of your double standards in that you have rules for couples you don't like that you don't apply to couples you do like.
He dosen't act like Usagi is a psycho for glomping on to him. He is just surprised and embarassed because he is a more reserved man but as it goes on he shows he actually like spending time with Usagi and grows to even like her glomping on to him even though he tries to hide it.
Again he never "grounded her from dates" he basically just stated in a nice way that while Usagi was doing the interest exams he will hold off going on dates with her till she gets her grades up. Also again scolding your romantic partner and calling them out isn't acting like a parent. Once more Mamoru is very affectionate and loving to Usagi while they are on dates.
Also it is not acting like a father asking Usagi and Chibiusa to go to the dentist it is just being a good boyfriend and future father. Which again I would check my lover's mouth for cavities too. I wouldn't want to kiss them while they have cavities or bad breath that is just yucky and he isn't acting like a dad more again like a boyfriend with a more immature wife checking on her. Also you and some other anti fans may see them as acting like father and daughter but they act no more like father and daughter then other similar couples like Ricky Riccardo and Lucy Riccardo, Dharma and Gregg etc or even a gender reversed example like Marge and Homer from The Simpsons or Bob and Linda Belcher from Bob's Burgers. Once more I would rather my boyfriend treat me like his daughter then as a pet like how Kagome treats Inuyasha or like a subordinate he slings around like how Demand treats Saphir. Also Usagi and Mamoru do have many dates where they act like a couple and have lovey dovey scenes. Where as Inuyasha and Kagome have next to none of those things and in many cases only have romantic scenes when there is something serious going on and Inuyasha is being brainwashed etc. Inuyasha and Kagome act even less like a couple then Usagi and Mamoru and again act more like bickering friends where as Usagi and Mamoru are very lovey dovey and even go on dates together etc. In fact just aside from certain moments of trial Inuyasha and Kagome show even less PDA towards each other then Usagi and Mamoru and even seem embarassed to do so because even when they become a "couple" they still act like they don't like each other and do the love/hate thing. This dosen't happen with Usagi and Mamoru once they become a couple.
Also Mamoru really dosen't get exaspperated at Usagi much unless she does something crazy and yes other couples do get exassperated with their love interests. Honestly Naru gets exaspperated with Umino even more then Mamoru does Usagi but she loves him dearly. Ikuko likewise does so to Kenji when he is acting extra and Luna certainly does with Artemis as well.
Because being treated as a daughter atleast has some dignity. Being treated as a disobedient pet is degrading and dehumanizing and being treated like a subordinate you can kick around is abusive. Plus I have Father/Son incest kink and a Daddy kink anyway.
Yes but your arguement was that it made sense for Kagome to treat Inuyasha as a dog because he is "half dog" yet Sesshomaru is a full dog demon and he dosen't act at all as beast like or immature as Inuyasha.
Oh Minako is immature and childish as Usagi just in different ways. Minako is more likely to act like a out of control brat or a Yankee and tell off people and fight. Honestly Minako is stated to many times act like a American or a Yankee which is not a compliment as Japanese people in many cases see Americans as out of control, overly aggressive, rude and with no care for etiquette or politeness. Honestly for all the crap Makoto gets about being seen as a delinquent by many people Minako honestly acts more like a delinquent then Makoto does.
We do see the other girls acting cute and goofy to try and attract men. Point in fact Umino acts as goofy as Usagi which in many cases annoys Naru even more then how Mamoru gets exaspperated with Usagi but she does love him.
Also it is considered normal for many girls to act goofy and cute and in fact one of the reasons why in almost any shojo series you see the main girl character acting like Usagi whether it be other characters like Hikaru from Rayearth, Sakura from Cardcaptor Sakura, Momoko from Wedding Peach or Miaka from Fushigi Yuugi is that the treats Usagi has are considered ideal for Japanese girls and young women. Also Saori and Kobayashi doubted Usagi and Mamoru's relationship because of how different they were but the episode showed Usagi and Mamoru were a good couple and Saori was even convinced by the end.
It is very infantile. Zoisite was cuddling up to Kunzite like a father seeing comfort from his son. It was very infantilized. Kunzite even held him practically like a father holding his son.
Again the entire radio dramas are non canon. The only reason you are trying to shoe horn them in as canon is because of your hatred for Usagi and Mamoru's relationship and how it big ups Saphir having a thing for Demand.
Also again what makes you think that if Mamoru told the truth to Usagi about the dreams that this would change anything? If anything what probably would happen and what Mamoru even figured would happen is that Usagi would disregard the dreams and even say that she dosen't care if she dies young so long as she can be with Mamoru and given that Mamoru loves Usagi he can't bear to see that happen. Plus like I stated before Mamoru was raised for a good portion of his life in a orphanage so this has made him more introverted, guarded and not having very good social skills and honestly many orphanages are terrible places to grow up in even in the good ones.
Mamoru basically tried being firm to Usagi that they were broken up but she kept coming around so he had to be harsher on her he was in no means a emotionally abusive douche. Honestly what would your solution be. Have him stay with Usagi knowing that his presence would cause her death that would make him even worse.
Usagi would cry at times when Rei said something she found too mean. Hell she would even do so with Shingo or even her family because Usagi is more of a cry baby character then Kagome or Momoko.
Rei specifically stated that Mamoru would be a good match for her as he was a good student, with good money and having good prospects in society. Nothing so much about him but seeing him as a good match by societies standards.
Oh no that is wrong many people can look the same and even have the same physical appearances. Hell with Usagi alone Minako practically looks like a clone of the girl and plenty of people have people in real life who look just like them and who aren't even related to them. You can even see this in certain celebs like how Jeffrey Dean Morgan looks like the twin brother of Javier Bardem. Ditto for actress Zooey Deschanel and Katy Perry. Hell when I was at the mall one time I saw a woman who looked just like actress Crystal Bernard famous for her role in Wings. I even asked the woman if she was her and she said no but she gets that alot.
I even have a friend who is the spitting image of Vanity aka the singer from the 80s So yeah people can easily have the same appearances almost looking like the twins of other people. So no even an appearance isn't exclusive to one person. Honestly no quality you have is exclusive to you other people all around the world can have it.
Also Usagi and Mamoru aren't bound based on their position and role. They love each other because they loved each other before in another lifetime and are always bound to one another out of mutual love. Not based on their roles. In fact their love was even a forbidden love from the start.
Also saying a person has alot of dreams is a statement for their ambition. Usagi has a adventurous spirit and wants to do and accomplish many things. She wants to be a stay at home housewife but again in your American mind you fail to know that a stay at home housewife IS considered a profession in Japan and a position of power at that as the housewife is in many cases the manager of the house with the husband being forced by societal expectations to give all of his money to the wife who then manages what he and the kids can spend it on.
By meaning that Usagi has alot of dreams it means that she has adventurous bright dreams for her own life and the man she loves living together in happiness with her and her friends which she accomplishes in Crystal Tokyo
Also as this video will show you being a Housewife is what most women want to be in Japan and really the Housewives run Japanese families. Most women don't want to work hard but have their husband give him his money so they can go and hangout at caffees with their friends.
Literally when you marry a woman in Japan she becomes your boss and if you all divorce you are required to pay her alimony and child support and in the case of children there is no shared custody in Japan and the wife pretty much always custody of the children. Honestly Japan favors women even more in marriage then husband. Also the reason women aren't marrying men much anymore in Japan isn't because they want feminism or want Western "agency" it is because the salaries are much lower now in Japan so it is harder to find a man to be your ATM in Japan and women expect the man to be their ATM and wallet.
Also why is it not ambitious to be a housewife. You know that is the ambition of most women in Japan IE to have a husband, be a housewife and to raise a happy healthy family. The only reason you don't consider this ambitious is because you are a Western feminist. In fact Western feminists have long degraded and shamed housewives. Usagi is ambitious for her life and her future which is why Mamoru says she has many dreams the only reason you don't consider her so is because you don't approve of her dreams.
Also I will say this if you don't want to be a wage slave with your attitude you will have a hard time finding a man who will support you if you even like a man or really have a hard time finding a woman. Because agency in the way you see it and marriage are incompatible.
Mamoru blushes around Usagi many times not just even then but in the finale of classic when she threw her test paper at him again. In fact Mamoru was shown smiling and blushig at Usagi many times out of love and attraction where in the case of the big boob lady he only blushed out of lust and embarassment not really that different from the episode in the Rainbow Crystal's arc when Sailor Jupiter was blushing at having Sailor Mercury' ass in her face though in the latter's case that was more embarassment as I don't believe that Makoto is bisexual.
Oh yes people that opposite can be good couples and work out. I have seen several in real life and in fictional media. In fact many people want partners who are nothing like them. Which again Usagi and Mamoru treat each other far better then how Kagome and Inuyasha treat each other and actually act like a couple and even show PDA more then just when something serious happens or Inuyasha is brainwashed.
People can act timid and embarassed when called out by a person for having bad behavior. That is not them disciplining the other person. In fact Usagi's own friends do no different and call her out for bad behavior which embarasses her. That is not discipline.
Also that is a like Saphir is just as mature as Mamoru is and much of him lashing out at Demand is due to his own jealousy. Really Demand dosen't even lash out at Saphir out of jealousy but rather Demand lashes out at Saphir for not being a good subordinate. So there relationship is even worse then Usagi and Mamoru's relationship and way more dysfunctional. Also Mamoru isn't jealous of Usagi because again Mamoru isn't the jealous type. Some people have more issues of jealousy then others and honestly the fact that Mamoru isn't the jealous type helps weigh down Usagi's own insecurities.
Bullshit Mamoru was never abusive to Usagi in the Breakup Arc he was harsh to her to protect her life from dying by being with him. Meanwhile Demand blasted Saphir against a wall for being disobedient. Hell Kagome makes Inuyasha sit like a disobedient animal dehumanizing him in the regular.
Honestly the only example of abuse you could ever give for Usagi and Mamoru is again when Usagi slaps him for forgetting her birthday that she never told him about. However again the fact is that it is way more societally acceptable for women to slap men then vice versa. Honestly it was treated as no different they Rei or Usagi's fights or when Luna would scratch Usagi or threaten to kick her ass for not following her orders in a mission etc.
However again I would chalk this up to permissive societal misandry as well as Usagi's immature and entitled side coming out. However in this same video she learns what a jackass she has been and even apologizes to Mamoru. Mamoru on the other hand because of his devoted love for Usagi dosen't even blame her he just goes to get her those highly expensive Cinderella shoes she wants because he loves her that much as a boyfriend. Honestly that is proof that they don't act like parent and child because no parent would ever tolerate their own child slapping them. Unless the kid is one of those extreme delinquents we see on Maury etc which Usagi isn't even. However again it is societally acceptable in the US and in Japan for women to hit men they are with. In fact when women hit men in public most people assume he did something to deserve it aka victim blaming.
I mean even though I am anti feminism as I am anti MRA the MRAs have a point that feminists fought against the social obligations put on women by patriarchal society but never gave up the privilege, protection etc that patriarchal society gave them as women. In essence proving the saying that feminists and even some non feminist women want the power of being men, the privilege and protection of being women and the responsibilities of childen.
What does sinking to the ground have to do with anything. Usagi would have crying tantrums at times when people like Rei, Luna, Shingo etc said something to upset her. That is worse then sinking to the ground.
Oh Demand does know how to manipulate people he does so with people in the Black Moon Clan quite well especially with Esmeraude and Saphir. However he wasn't able to manipulate Usagi into being with him because she dosen't love him and never will love him.
Also he dosen't have to hypnotize Esmeraude as she is all ready head over heels with him and will do whatever he asks so that is a phoney comparison.
Likewise he dosen't have to hypnotize Saphir either manipulation can do better as he is all ready under his thumb.
Also you are reading too much into it. The gesture isn't necessarily sensual it is most likely Demand just showing affection to Saphir but it isn't necessarily sexual. Saphir may have taken it as sexual but it wasn't intended and Demand shows no attraction to Saphir at all. Making the relationship completely one sided.
In fact honestly now I don't ship Demand and Saphir. Even if I brought them back to life in my story which I won't save in my adaptation of Another Story where they will die off anyway even if I did I would probably pair them with other people. Maybe even having Saphir get with Petz or even another male character and putting Demand with someone else too.
Honestly I don't even think it is a flirty gesture anymore. I think that Demand just intended it as brotherly affection even if Saphir took it another way. I don't think now that Demand had any attraction to Saphir. I think it was all one sided on Saphir's part.
Also no dad would tolerate their child slapping him. If anything they would have to be the pushover parents like you see in the Maury bad kids episode. This was more like a wife slapping her husband for offending her.
Usagi being as jealous as she is isn't healthy. In fact jealousy isn't good at all and one thing Usagi has tried to do is tone down her jealous nature. If anything it is much more healthy to act as how Mamoru behaves. Hell the jealousy that Inuyasha and Kagome show isn't healthy but that is more of an issue with their own character. Usagi being jealous and Mamoru not being jealous at all isn't innately unhealthy except that jealous is unhealthy.
Also Mamoru and Fiore do not have a good dynamic and meaningful relationship. They were friends when they were younger and because of that Fiore now thinks that he can swoop in and take Mamoru all for himself. Also we have no real indication that Fiore had any feelings for Mamoru other then friendship but even if he did he would basically be nothing more then a male Beryl at best. In fact you could arguably call Demand, Beryl and Fiore as rapists given that they don't take no for an answer. The only arguably saving grace for them is that you could argue they were being manipulated by Wiseman/Death Phantom, Queen Metalia and the Xenian Flower Which isn't a good dynamic and meaningful relationship. Plus since you decry Mamoru and Usagi for having different interests what evidence do you have that Mamoru and Fiore share the same interests. Honestly they were only together as children as friends. Given that Fiore has been across space he may have very different interests from Mamoru just being a space gypsy alone.
Perhaps it would be better if they just PM each other because it is reaching to the point that it is going political and off topic.
Likes:
Neo Queen Serenity
Those walls of text are so big, it basically boils down to
I get different people like different aspects of Sailor Moon, but I don't think there's any reason that someone whose obviously read the manga should knock and put down someone who has watched the anime.
and now I fear I might get a big wall of text after this.
not even going to bother with the overtly political aspect of those walls of text, I don't like getting into arguments, even in real life.
I get different people like different aspects of Sailor Moon, but I don't think there's any reason that someone whose obviously read the manga should knock and put down someone who has watched the anime.
and now I fear I might get a big wall of text after this.
not even going to bother with the overtly political aspect of those walls of text, I don't like getting into arguments, even in real life.
Can I inject I don't think having couples that were together in past and together in the future is destined lovers.I think having two people loving each other is not enough.Now if they were prohesized together
Likes:
Neo Queen Serenity
Correction, it is some of the less vocal leftists that are pro-sex and tolerant of pedophilia an example of that is some members of CLAMP, I agree that the vocal leftists in Japan that are against the sexualization of women and they are very vocal, the Mangaka of Wedding Peach was also involved in Anti-War activism during the Iraq war, I remember reading her website back in the day and her views show in her works like the lack of age gap and fanservice in the manga version of Wedding Peach which the anime has.
I think Precure tries to be more inclusive than Sailor Moon nowadays.
Naoko is a LibFem, at least in her presentation, at least she hides her real views, unlike Rowling who had gotten radicalized.
I think Precure tries to be more inclusive than Sailor Moon nowadays.
Naoko is a LibFem, at least in her presentation, at least she hides her real views, unlike Rowling who had gotten radicalized.
While I wait for @MariaTenebre to finish her reply I think I’ll open up the floor to everyone else with this question:
Tell me, do you all think Mamoru in the 90’s anime treats Usagi like a daughter or is it just me?
Think you got cut off there a bit, what were you gonna finish saying?
Tell me, do you all think Mamoru in the 90’s anime treats Usagi like a daughter or is it just me?
Think you got cut off there a bit, what were you gonna finish saying?
No worries, It's not you I was fearing of getting a big wall of text from.
on the topic, I might have to create a Tokyome Gaiden timeline, if I could, one where Usagi and Mamoru did wind up breaking up and never got back together while the timeline somewhat goes on, certain arcs could wind up getting pushed to Pinako's portion entirely, there could be a Youma Vs. Droid battle (and no, I'm not of the headcanon of Droids being Future Youma, I originally conceived Pinako in Subsen as kind of a Future Youma that basically had Chibiusa's circumstances, I.E. Attacked by the Black Moon Clan with their Droids and [Future] Oniwabandana helping her get to the past, as far as I'm concerned, the Subsen version of Pinako still has that as her basic backstory, but I've been slowly incorporating the Tokyoma Gaiden versions' aspects into her)
on the topic, I might have to create a Tokyome Gaiden timeline, if I could, one where Usagi and Mamoru did wind up breaking up and never got back together while the timeline somewhat goes on, certain arcs could wind up getting pushed to Pinako's portion entirely, there could be a Youma Vs. Droid battle (and no, I'm not of the headcanon of Droids being Future Youma, I originally conceived Pinako in Subsen as kind of a Future Youma that basically had Chibiusa's circumstances, I.E. Attacked by the Black Moon Clan with their Droids and [Future] Oniwabandana helping her get to the past, as far as I'm concerned, the Subsen version of Pinako still has that as her basic backstory, but I've been slowly incorporating the Tokyoma Gaiden versions' aspects into her)
Welp sorry everyone, I tried to PM Maria to take our conversation into the DM’s but she’s uncomfortable with using the PM system for non-friends so I have no choice but to continue here, I tried though. I don’t even think we’re technically breaking any rules, I mean it’s still on-topic (I’ll try not to get too political on my end for future topic) if the long posts annoy you just scroll past them and ignore.
How do you know this is the reason and he wasn’t reading just for fun when he never said?
Of course, but they actually have to relate to one another and act as lovers, which I never see Mamoru do in the 90’s anime. It’s mostly one-sided on Usagi’s part where she’s seeking and begging for his attention and he reluctantly gives it but never seems particularly excited about it. That’s not normal for a boyfriend to act like that, it shouldn’t be like pulling teeth to get them to reciprocate equal affection for you.
Can you cite where though?
She never actually says this from what I can recall, we can only intuit these are the reasons because of how she fell for Mamoru in his Tuxedo Mask form and the fact that her past crush Motoki was also an older guy.
Why does it feel wonderful to be around her? How does she have a lot of dreams if she only wants to be a housewife? If he would bother to explain these very vague statements I wouldn’t even apply this standard to him.
Why would he have to hide it if he’s come to like it? Even once they become a couple he still gets uncomfortable with her glomming such as in the Saori episode where he tells her to cut it out.
Or even here for instance:
That doesn’t look like the face of someone who genuinely enjoys his girlfriend hanging onto him but tries to hide it, that looks like the face of someone who is genuinely annoyed by it.
Zoisite is also always clinging onto Kunzite but you never see him looking annoyed or exasperated by it, on the contrary he quite enjoys it which is how a normal boyfriend should behave if they really love their lover.
I much prefer couples that are so comfortable and causal around each other while not being particularly romantic than the opposite, the former actually showcases good chemistry while the latter is an awkward dynamic to watch otherwise outside of big romantic moments.
Where do we see UsaMamo ever banter and bicker so casually the way InuKag do after becoming a couple? They’re so formal and stiff with each other, you definitely get the sense that Mamoru is only Usagi’s boyfriend and not her best friend whereas with InuKag they’re both lovers and best friends and for me I prefer my fictional ships to be both friends and lovers because then their dynamic is actually entertaining to watch and doesn’t feel so awkward.
A ship that can only interact romantically and not casually just isn’t as much “fun” as one that can do both. UsaMamo are simply not a fun couple for me to watch and that’s another one of the reasons why I don’t ship them, it’s really as simple as that.
Honestly if they had kept their back and forth bickering from Classic once they became a couple I would’ve found them more interesting and been more open to shipping them, they don’t though. Mamoru turned into this uber mature stoic type who barely reacts to Usagi’s antics and just humors her and that’s simply not a very entertaining or fun dynamic for me to ship.
I think the difference is and why it doesn’t feel as bad with them is because they’re all the same age and thus relative maturity level compared to Mamoru’s age-up in the 90’s anime.
Though you should know that I don’t particularly ship either of those 3 couples either. I mean Umino/Naru is okay but I prefer her with an aged down Nephrite and Luna/Artemis always felt like the very epitome of “pair the spares,” which like it’s “destined lovers” cousin is another ship trope I absolutely despise and roll my eyes at.
You can really tell Luna and Artemis are only really together because they’re the only two cats of their kind around and have no other options, hell Luna is so unattracted to Artemis that she’s constantly getting wandering eyes (see Kakeru and Yaten) and Artemis is just a nice guy simp hopelessly waiting for her to notice him and give him the time of day, they’re honestly pretty pathetic as a ship. I much prefer shipping Artemis with Minako in his human form.
Except Inuyasha literally isn’t human soooo…
The way Mamoru relates to Usagi definitely isn’t in the sexy Daddy dom BDSM way but like an actual parent who doesn’t even want to get romantic or sexual with her, which is cringe and boring to watch for a ship.
I already said it’s because Sesshomaru is both older than Inuyasha (19 to Inuyasha’s 15 in demon years) and because he was raised in an aristocratic house, so he’s overall more mature than Inuyasha and is from a high-bred pedigree where the demons behave more human-like.
Yes I agree, Minako is definitely the delinquent yankee of the group and is the actual tomboy of the Inners rather than Mako (at least in the manga), however that’s not being immature, that’s merely being a rough and tumble loud-mouthed delinquent type. Minako never childishly cries when something offends her or she doesn’t get her way (hell she outright says in the Sailor V manga that she’s the type who never cries) and even Usagi referred to her as the most mature of the Inners back in her Classic backstory episode.
Not to the extent where they cry buckets of tears and hang off men’s arms like a literal koala the way Usagi does.
And I don’t ship them much either so it’s a moot point for me either way, yet even with Naru/Umino, Naru at least relates to Umino as an equal lover as she blushes around him and was even just as hurdled with anxiety as he was over whether he truly returned her feelings or not during the Best Couples Contest episode - something we never see Mamoru worry about, it’s always Usagi who’s forced to be the insecure one in their relationship.
None of those girls get with guys as old or as mature as Mamoru though.
Only because she saw Usagi’s mature side as Sailor Moon risking her life for Mamoru, if she hadn’t found out she was Sailor Moon she would’ve kept on never believing Usagi was his actual girlfriend based on how Mamoru treats her in her civilian form.
Well at least Kunzite actually relates to Zoisite as a lover in the process even if it might look infantilized to you. Need I remind you that we never see Mamoru comforting Usagi like that?
How do you know they aren’t? I thought it’s taken for a fact that any officially released and licensed material is in fact canon?
Even if they aren’t canon, the same writers who wrote for the anime wrote the Drama CDs and it still shows how they really feel about UsaMamo’s relationship, even subconsciously.
Because he eventually did do this in the episode they get back together in and it actually seemed to work. Usagi started having the same dream so he was forced to come clean and simply firmly pushed her away despite her protests and cries about wanting to be together with him regardless. Why couldn’t he just do this from the start? Why did he actively have to destroy her self-esteem in the process?
This is true and is the reason I don’t blame him too badly for it, that doesn’t change the fact it was emotional abuse regardless of his good intentions.
No, he should’ve done what he did in episode 77 from the start - tell her the truth of the dreams he’s been having but sternly and firmly shut down her attempts to get back together with him, a no is a no and she would just have to learn to respect that. If she doesn’t then let up then he could’ve tried to actively avoid her, even to the point of moving away out of town if it got that drastic.
She never sunk to the floor and cried as hard with them as she did that time with Mamoru though where even all the passerby’s thought it was weird and too much.
No she was also physically attracted to him and thought he was hot, he was her type, which is the most important aspect that makes her attraction genuine.
That’s still being attracted to someone for a specific quality they possess rather than only loving them based on the circumstances you’re in.
The point is is that you should be in a relationship with someone only because of the qualities they have as a person, not simply because circumstances brought you together and you would’ve loved anyone who happened to be in those same circumstances. Doesn’t even matter whether these qualities are unique to a specific person or not, it’s still liking/loving someone for who they are as opposed to them simply being in the right place at the right time or decided by some other supernatural otherworldly force that could be swapped out with anyone.
Because if you’re just with someone because of circumstances such as them being the one who came to you in a prophetic dream that forced you to feel for the first time in your life because of a curse or because their true identity is the Princess you were lovers with in your previous life, then that’s not actually being attracted to the kind of person your significant other is, whether looks wise or personality-wise. Like I said if only circumstances are tying you together then anyone could’ve been in that prophetic dream or Princess Serenity and it wouldn’t even matter, it’s not like you’re with them for any particular qualities they possess, but simply just because of the position they happened to be born in.
That’s literally the very definition of shallow attraction and only wanting to be with someone based on their status and role, and yet you dare to decry Rei for this while I’m the one who’s supposed to have the double standards? On the contrary, I think I’ve been very consistent with my standards thus far - I always said any attraction is valid so long as it’s based on specific qualities your love interest has as a person, doesn’t matter if they’re hard to find exclusive qualities or not. What type of attraction that isn’t valid in my eyes is one based purely on circumstantial situations rather than quality as a person such as a supernatural destiny or the status/position such a person occupies that can be swapped out with anybody because really it’s only that very specific position that matters rather than the person themselves.
At least Rei was physically attracted to Mamoru all along and didn’t need some supernatural dream or him being Prince Endymion telling her to be attracted to him like Mamoru and Fruits Basket dude needed for their lovers.
Too bad we don’t get that in the 90’s anime and it’s quite blatantly shown that Mamoru would’ve been together with anyone who turned out to be Princess Serenity just like Usagi would’ve been with anyone who turned out to be Tuxedo Mask - so they do in fact only love each other based on their positions/roles as we never see them coming to love each other in their civilian lives without the aid of memories or secret identity reveals in either Classic or the Makai Tree Arc.
Like what? All she wants to do is be lazy and sleep, eat, and play video-games/read manga all day long. (She literally says those are her hobbies) Which I’m not judging her for because I’m honestly the same way, but it just goes to show how little Mamoru actually knows her if he thinks she’s “ambitious” or “adventurous” in any way.
I’m not saying it to be degrading or judging, like I said in my previous reply, I would much rather be a housewife/kept woman than a wage slave and think they’ve got it made in comparison! But knowing Usagi she likely only wants to be a housewife for the same reasons I do: to be lazy and not do any work, which is totally and completely fine but it’s not ambitious in any sense of the word just by definition which means Mamoru outright wrongly described her, proving he doesn’t know her well at all and is only with her because of destiny rather than who she actually is as a person.
Wanting agency in a relationship based your natural attraction to a partner rather than being forcibly tied together by circumstances or destiny is incompatible with marriage…? Literally how? That’s how most people fall in love and get married outside of arranged marriages in very religious communities, which I certainly don’t use as my role model because they’re not marrying for love or passion anyways.
I’m trying to see exactly what you mean in this scene and I’m coming up with nothing, are you talking about those little black lines his cheeks get as he’s smirking? That’s supposed to be a blush? He wasn’t turning red at all.
Lust is attraction.
Maybe not Manga/Crystal or PGSM Mako but you’re wrong about 90’s anime Mako, she very much is bisexual, or are you forgetting about that whole entire episode she got in S dedicated to her crush on Haruka? (Which occurred after all the Inners found out Haruka is really a woman)
Really the only Inner we can say for sure is 100% straight in the anime is Minako based on how she immediately lost interest in Haruka upon finding out her true gender and even lost interest in the Three Lights once she learned of their female forms.
When has Usagi ever gotten embarrassed by the Inners or Luna calling her out like she was with Mamoru in that moment? Because I don’t recall any. Usually she disregards them and just keeps being her goofy rather than showing any shame over her behavior.
Saphir is much more emotional and louder than Mamoru is so no, he isn’t as mature.
Mamoru would never proclaim so boldly that he outright hates someone the way Saphir did about Sailor Moon (all while shaking his fist yet) nor does he ever yell and scream at the top of his lungs.
Also Demande being slightly older than Saphir helps balance out Saphir’s higher maturity so it doesn’t feel like the maturity gap is that wide, unlike 90’s anime UsaMamo where Mamoru is both much more mature than Usagi while also being older than her.
If Saphir was both more mature while also being the older of the two then it might be a different story, but even then not so much cause even if he was the older brother instead of Demande he’s still not as mature as Mamoru is made to be post-Makai Tree arc.
It’s not just that, a lot of it was also because Demande was being an absolute dumbass and was endangering their mission to avenge their ancestors by focusing on his childish obsession with the Neo Queen. Not only that, he was also being directly coerced/encouraged by Wiseman whom Saphir could tell was bad news right from the start and was dangerous for everyone involved (Which proved to be right)
Boiling down his complaints and temper explosions at Demande as just petty jealousy is doing a disservice to both Saphir’s character and the gravity of the situation at hand.
Which by the way even if he was only lashing out of jealousy, it would automatically prove he wasn’t as mature as Mamoru as you say he is because that is the very definition of an immature way to handle jealousy.
So even though Saphir is more mature than Demande overall their maturity gap still isn’t as gaping wide as UsaMamo’s, and neither is InuKag’s nor Momoko/Kyosuke, hell even Manga UsaMamo and PGSM UsaMamo don’t have that wide of a gap, the only couple you can apply that to is the 90’s anime version of UsaMamo specifically
(I will give you KunZoi also having a big maturity gap but it doesn’t look as bad because again Kunzite still relates to Zoisite as a lover and is equally reciprocal with his affection, plus it’s evened out by the fact that we don’t know their ages in the 90’s anime, unlike in the manga they could be the exact same age or hell even Kunzite being the younger one for all we know)
So you admit him not being jealous at all just serves to make her insecurities worse? Or did you mean to say him not being the jealous type makes the weight of her insecurities lighter? But even you did no it doesn’t, in fact it highlights even further the imbalance and one-sidedness of their relationship. Why should Usagi be the only one having to shoulder and be burdened with insecurities and jealousies? Mamoru loves her just as much as she does him doesn’t he? Their feelings are supposed to be on the exact same page and level aren’t they? So why is Usagi the one forced to put all the work into the relationship and better herself for Mamoru so as not to feel threatened while Mamoru doesn’t have to fo diddly squat?!
This is what Naoko meant by the 90’s anime having a male-gazey view in it’s writing, I mean even she was able to bother giving Mamoru a jealousy arc in the manga by making him jealous of Haruka thereby making him feel like the one who has to prove his worth for Usagi rather than it always being the other way around like in the anime so why couldn’t the 90’s anime writers do the same like Naoko did? They deliberately went out of their way to make it seem like Mamoru is flawless and doesn’t have to compete for anything because he just gets stuff handed to him and his relationship with Usagi doesn’t actually emotionally affect him that much, meanwhile Usagi is constantly riddled with anxiety and insecurity and feeling like she needs to prove herself, I’m sorry but that’s not a fair or equal relationship.
Of course jealousy isn’t healthy but in that case the 90’s anime should’ve toned down Usagi’s jealousy and insecurities in order to compensate for Mamoru’s lack of it to make their relationship feel more balanced, not only did they not do this though they made it even worse by heightening it and making her jealousy out to be an irrational joke, all while Mamoru remains cool as a cucumber and is propped up as this oh-so mature guy who never once has to lift a finger of work in their relationship.
Usagi is the one doing all the emotional labor in their relationship in the 90’s anime and any certified relationship therapist can tell you that that’s not a healthy relationship at all.
Made even worse by the fact that again, Mamoru never actually tries to even address her irrational jealousies and reassure her, no just acts like his usual useless exasperated and tired self, how is he even helping her to handle her insecurities in a healthy and productive manner?
And yes it technically is worse and more dysfunctional than Demande and Saphir’s relationship (at least in the jealousy department) because Demande and Saphir aren’t even officially together so of course their feelings wouldn’t be on the same page and jealousy would crop up as an issue, and Demande has no obligation to soothe or return Saphir’s jealous feelings if he doesn’t feel the same way. Meanwhile Mamoru supposedly does return Usagi’s feelings, and so he has an obligation to her as her boyfriend to reassure her and reciprocate her feelings at an equal intensity instead of it being so massively imbalanced between the two. One thing is for sure, by only watching the 90’s anime you can automatically tell Usagi is much more in love with Mamoru than he is with her, and combine that with their widened maturity gap, their messy history from before they got together, and the whole looming destiny in the background tying them together and it’s a big fat mess of a written relationship.
Intent doesn’t matter here, his actions were still emotionally abusive all the same. And he was also emotionally abusive to her back in Classic during that time his “teasing” went to far and she sunk to the ground in tears by implying that any guy who likes her must be as garbage of a person as she is. I’m sorry but that’s not simple playful teasing and banter, that’s bullying and bullying is emotional abuse.
It definitely wasn’t treated as comedic relief though, Usagi was lamenting on it and regretting her bad behavior and thought she had to apologize to Mamoru which we never see Rei or Luna do with her during any of their fights or with Kagome’s sits of Inuyasha - ergo it’s just as much a serious incident of abuse as Demande slamming Saphir into a wall and should be treated as such.
Some of them do if they’re pushovers though.
Because it shows Mamoru’s bullying of her in that episode was enough to effect her to such an extent, I mean come on, Mamoru outright called her garbage to her face and said that any guy she likes must also be garbage because “trash attracts trash.” That goes way beyond the playful tsundere teasing Rei ever did to her and into outright bullying territory!
Except we never see him try to manipulate Esmeraude even once, intentionally or not.
What I’m saying is if he knows how to manipulate then why wasn’t his first plan of action to simply disguise himself as a civilian and woo/court her in regular life using sweet words and gestures? If he’s so good at “manipulating” people like you claim then why couldn’t he try to get Usagi to fall in love with him this way, through seduction?
Why was his first and only option stupidly ambushing her as the enemy and physically forcing himself on her? Which was guaranteed to make her hate him from the start and a method to make certain he’d never have a chance with her.
So is Saphir though your point? Why would he need to manipulate Saphir if he doesn’t have to with Esmeraude when they’re both in love with him?
And yet he doesn’t do the same with Esmeraude so why only manipulate Saphir?
Then how come most of the Japanese SM fandom on Twitter took it that way? Nearly all the comments I’ve seen on that scene have people saying it was a sensual gesture on the part of Demande.
Why don’t you? Just because I ship it?
Also I’m still eagerly waiting your response on why you think Saphir behaves like a monster both in his relationship to Demande and outside of it - Demande yes is an absolute monster towards Saphir, I agree with you there. But when has Saphir ever treated Demande badly, or anyone else for that matter?
Also the only reason why I still ship them and give some leeway on Demande’s abusive actions is because he was both being groomed by Wiseman and was also wearing those Black Crystal Earrings so he likely wasn’t himself and would’ve never slammed Saphir against a wall if not under the influence. (Unlike Usagi who wasn’t under the influence of anything and still quite clearly herself when she slapped and physically abused Mamoru)
It shows that the intensity of their feelings aren’t on the same level though and that Usagi’s the one who’s putting in all the work into their relationship and shouldering the emotional labor while Mamoru gets to relax and do diddly-squat! It’s unequal and not fair.
Mamoru literally broke down sobbing when he heard Fiore was leaving, he gave him a rose as token of his affection for him to remember him by (an idea that came from Usagi but still). They shared a bed staring deeply into each other’s eyes and he’s the one who found Fiore and saved his life by bringing him to the orphanage in the first place and you still don’t think they had a meaningful relationship?!
Just like Demande, Fiore was under the influence of the Kisenian Blossom, so we can’t judge his actions based off of that.
So the Inners outright speculating that Fiore liked Mamoru in a gay way means nothing? Gee, I wonder what could have put the thought in their heads if it was simply just “normal friendship?” /s
Also what kind of “friend” wants to monopolize their “best friend” all to themselves and gets jealous of their “friend’s” significant other? That’s not normal friendship behavior but more like a jealous lover.
Demande is a rapist yes but I believe it’s going too far to call Beryl and Fiore that.
When did they ever attempt to sexually assault Mamoru the way Demande did Usagi?
Do they have issues respecting consent and taking no for an answer? Yes, but that’s not rape. You’re watering down and making light of the term if you describe it outside of any context not involving direct sexual assault.
They share an interest in flowers though, which is still more than any interests Usagi and Mamoru share together.
How do you know this is the reason and he wasn’t reading just for fun when he never said?
Of course, but they actually have to relate to one another and act as lovers, which I never see Mamoru do in the 90’s anime. It’s mostly one-sided on Usagi’s part where she’s seeking and begging for his attention and he reluctantly gives it but never seems particularly excited about it. That’s not normal for a boyfriend to act like that, it shouldn’t be like pulling teeth to get them to reciprocate equal affection for you.
Can you cite where though?
She never actually says this from what I can recall, we can only intuit these are the reasons because of how she fell for Mamoru in his Tuxedo Mask form and the fact that her past crush Motoki was also an older guy.
Why does it feel wonderful to be around her? How does she have a lot of dreams if she only wants to be a housewife? If he would bother to explain these very vague statements I wouldn’t even apply this standard to him.
Why would he have to hide it if he’s come to like it? Even once they become a couple he still gets uncomfortable with her glomming such as in the Saori episode where he tells her to cut it out.
Or even here for instance:
That doesn’t look like the face of someone who genuinely enjoys his girlfriend hanging onto him but tries to hide it, that looks like the face of someone who is genuinely annoyed by it.
Zoisite is also always clinging onto Kunzite but you never see him looking annoyed or exasperated by it, on the contrary he quite enjoys it which is how a normal boyfriend should behave if they really love their lover.
I much prefer couples that are so comfortable and causal around each other while not being particularly romantic than the opposite, the former actually showcases good chemistry while the latter is an awkward dynamic to watch otherwise outside of big romantic moments.
Where do we see UsaMamo ever banter and bicker so casually the way InuKag do after becoming a couple? They’re so formal and stiff with each other, you definitely get the sense that Mamoru is only Usagi’s boyfriend and not her best friend whereas with InuKag they’re both lovers and best friends and for me I prefer my fictional ships to be both friends and lovers because then their dynamic is actually entertaining to watch and doesn’t feel so awkward.
A ship that can only interact romantically and not casually just isn’t as much “fun” as one that can do both. UsaMamo are simply not a fun couple for me to watch and that’s another one of the reasons why I don’t ship them, it’s really as simple as that.
Honestly if they had kept their back and forth bickering from Classic once they became a couple I would’ve found them more interesting and been more open to shipping them, they don’t though. Mamoru turned into this uber mature stoic type who barely reacts to Usagi’s antics and just humors her and that’s simply not a very entertaining or fun dynamic for me to ship.
I think the difference is and why it doesn’t feel as bad with them is because they’re all the same age and thus relative maturity level compared to Mamoru’s age-up in the 90’s anime.
Though you should know that I don’t particularly ship either of those 3 couples either. I mean Umino/Naru is okay but I prefer her with an aged down Nephrite and Luna/Artemis always felt like the very epitome of “pair the spares,” which like it’s “destined lovers” cousin is another ship trope I absolutely despise and roll my eyes at.
You can really tell Luna and Artemis are only really together because they’re the only two cats of their kind around and have no other options, hell Luna is so unattracted to Artemis that she’s constantly getting wandering eyes (see Kakeru and Yaten) and Artemis is just a nice guy simp hopelessly waiting for her to notice him and give him the time of day, they’re honestly pretty pathetic as a ship. I much prefer shipping Artemis with Minako in his human form.
Except Inuyasha literally isn’t human soooo…
The way Mamoru relates to Usagi definitely isn’t in the sexy Daddy dom BDSM way but like an actual parent who doesn’t even want to get romantic or sexual with her, which is cringe and boring to watch for a ship.
I already said it’s because Sesshomaru is both older than Inuyasha (19 to Inuyasha’s 15 in demon years) and because he was raised in an aristocratic house, so he’s overall more mature than Inuyasha and is from a high-bred pedigree where the demons behave more human-like.
Yes I agree, Minako is definitely the delinquent yankee of the group and is the actual tomboy of the Inners rather than Mako (at least in the manga), however that’s not being immature, that’s merely being a rough and tumble loud-mouthed delinquent type. Minako never childishly cries when something offends her or she doesn’t get her way (hell she outright says in the Sailor V manga that she’s the type who never cries) and even Usagi referred to her as the most mature of the Inners back in her Classic backstory episode.
Not to the extent where they cry buckets of tears and hang off men’s arms like a literal koala the way Usagi does.
And I don’t ship them much either so it’s a moot point for me either way, yet even with Naru/Umino, Naru at least relates to Umino as an equal lover as she blushes around him and was even just as hurdled with anxiety as he was over whether he truly returned her feelings or not during the Best Couples Contest episode - something we never see Mamoru worry about, it’s always Usagi who’s forced to be the insecure one in their relationship.
None of those girls get with guys as old or as mature as Mamoru though.
Only because she saw Usagi’s mature side as Sailor Moon risking her life for Mamoru, if she hadn’t found out she was Sailor Moon she would’ve kept on never believing Usagi was his actual girlfriend based on how Mamoru treats her in her civilian form.
Well at least Kunzite actually relates to Zoisite as a lover in the process even if it might look infantilized to you. Need I remind you that we never see Mamoru comforting Usagi like that?
How do you know they aren’t? I thought it’s taken for a fact that any officially released and licensed material is in fact canon?
Even if they aren’t canon, the same writers who wrote for the anime wrote the Drama CDs and it still shows how they really feel about UsaMamo’s relationship, even subconsciously.
Because he eventually did do this in the episode they get back together in and it actually seemed to work. Usagi started having the same dream so he was forced to come clean and simply firmly pushed her away despite her protests and cries about wanting to be together with him regardless. Why couldn’t he just do this from the start? Why did he actively have to destroy her self-esteem in the process?
This is true and is the reason I don’t blame him too badly for it, that doesn’t change the fact it was emotional abuse regardless of his good intentions.
No, he should’ve done what he did in episode 77 from the start - tell her the truth of the dreams he’s been having but sternly and firmly shut down her attempts to get back together with him, a no is a no and she would just have to learn to respect that. If she doesn’t then let up then he could’ve tried to actively avoid her, even to the point of moving away out of town if it got that drastic.
She never sunk to the floor and cried as hard with them as she did that time with Mamoru though where even all the passerby’s thought it was weird and too much.
No she was also physically attracted to him and thought he was hot, he was her type, which is the most important aspect that makes her attraction genuine.
That’s still being attracted to someone for a specific quality they possess rather than only loving them based on the circumstances you’re in.
The point is is that you should be in a relationship with someone only because of the qualities they have as a person, not simply because circumstances brought you together and you would’ve loved anyone who happened to be in those same circumstances. Doesn’t even matter whether these qualities are unique to a specific person or not, it’s still liking/loving someone for who they are as opposed to them simply being in the right place at the right time or decided by some other supernatural otherworldly force that could be swapped out with anyone.
Because if you’re just with someone because of circumstances such as them being the one who came to you in a prophetic dream that forced you to feel for the first time in your life because of a curse or because their true identity is the Princess you were lovers with in your previous life, then that’s not actually being attracted to the kind of person your significant other is, whether looks wise or personality-wise. Like I said if only circumstances are tying you together then anyone could’ve been in that prophetic dream or Princess Serenity and it wouldn’t even matter, it’s not like you’re with them for any particular qualities they possess, but simply just because of the position they happened to be born in.
That’s literally the very definition of shallow attraction and only wanting to be with someone based on their status and role, and yet you dare to decry Rei for this while I’m the one who’s supposed to have the double standards? On the contrary, I think I’ve been very consistent with my standards thus far - I always said any attraction is valid so long as it’s based on specific qualities your love interest has as a person, doesn’t matter if they’re hard to find exclusive qualities or not. What type of attraction that isn’t valid in my eyes is one based purely on circumstantial situations rather than quality as a person such as a supernatural destiny or the status/position such a person occupies that can be swapped out with anybody because really it’s only that very specific position that matters rather than the person themselves.
At least Rei was physically attracted to Mamoru all along and didn’t need some supernatural dream or him being Prince Endymion telling her to be attracted to him like Mamoru and Fruits Basket dude needed for their lovers.
Too bad we don’t get that in the 90’s anime and it’s quite blatantly shown that Mamoru would’ve been together with anyone who turned out to be Princess Serenity just like Usagi would’ve been with anyone who turned out to be Tuxedo Mask - so they do in fact only love each other based on their positions/roles as we never see them coming to love each other in their civilian lives without the aid of memories or secret identity reveals in either Classic or the Makai Tree Arc.
Like what? All she wants to do is be lazy and sleep, eat, and play video-games/read manga all day long. (She literally says those are her hobbies) Which I’m not judging her for because I’m honestly the same way, but it just goes to show how little Mamoru actually knows her if he thinks she’s “ambitious” or “adventurous” in any way.
I’m not saying it to be degrading or judging, like I said in my previous reply, I would much rather be a housewife/kept woman than a wage slave and think they’ve got it made in comparison! But knowing Usagi she likely only wants to be a housewife for the same reasons I do: to be lazy and not do any work, which is totally and completely fine but it’s not ambitious in any sense of the word just by definition which means Mamoru outright wrongly described her, proving he doesn’t know her well at all and is only with her because of destiny rather than who she actually is as a person.
Wanting agency in a relationship based your natural attraction to a partner rather than being forcibly tied together by circumstances or destiny is incompatible with marriage…? Literally how? That’s how most people fall in love and get married outside of arranged marriages in very religious communities, which I certainly don’t use as my role model because they’re not marrying for love or passion anyways.
I’m trying to see exactly what you mean in this scene and I’m coming up with nothing, are you talking about those little black lines his cheeks get as he’s smirking? That’s supposed to be a blush? He wasn’t turning red at all.
Lust is attraction.
Maybe not Manga/Crystal or PGSM Mako but you’re wrong about 90’s anime Mako, she very much is bisexual, or are you forgetting about that whole entire episode she got in S dedicated to her crush on Haruka? (Which occurred after all the Inners found out Haruka is really a woman)
Really the only Inner we can say for sure is 100% straight in the anime is Minako based on how she immediately lost interest in Haruka upon finding out her true gender and even lost interest in the Three Lights once she learned of their female forms.
When has Usagi ever gotten embarrassed by the Inners or Luna calling her out like she was with Mamoru in that moment? Because I don’t recall any. Usually she disregards them and just keeps being her goofy rather than showing any shame over her behavior.
Saphir is much more emotional and louder than Mamoru is so no, he isn’t as mature.
Mamoru would never proclaim so boldly that he outright hates someone the way Saphir did about Sailor Moon (all while shaking his fist yet) nor does he ever yell and scream at the top of his lungs.
Also Demande being slightly older than Saphir helps balance out Saphir’s higher maturity so it doesn’t feel like the maturity gap is that wide, unlike 90’s anime UsaMamo where Mamoru is both much more mature than Usagi while also being older than her.
If Saphir was both more mature while also being the older of the two then it might be a different story, but even then not so much cause even if he was the older brother instead of Demande he’s still not as mature as Mamoru is made to be post-Makai Tree arc.
It’s not just that, a lot of it was also because Demande was being an absolute dumbass and was endangering their mission to avenge their ancestors by focusing on his childish obsession with the Neo Queen. Not only that, he was also being directly coerced/encouraged by Wiseman whom Saphir could tell was bad news right from the start and was dangerous for everyone involved (Which proved to be right)
Boiling down his complaints and temper explosions at Demande as just petty jealousy is doing a disservice to both Saphir’s character and the gravity of the situation at hand.
Which by the way even if he was only lashing out of jealousy, it would automatically prove he wasn’t as mature as Mamoru as you say he is because that is the very definition of an immature way to handle jealousy.
So even though Saphir is more mature than Demande overall their maturity gap still isn’t as gaping wide as UsaMamo’s, and neither is InuKag’s nor Momoko/Kyosuke, hell even Manga UsaMamo and PGSM UsaMamo don’t have that wide of a gap, the only couple you can apply that to is the 90’s anime version of UsaMamo specifically
(I will give you KunZoi also having a big maturity gap but it doesn’t look as bad because again Kunzite still relates to Zoisite as a lover and is equally reciprocal with his affection, plus it’s evened out by the fact that we don’t know their ages in the 90’s anime, unlike in the manga they could be the exact same age or hell even Kunzite being the younger one for all we know)
So you admit him not being jealous at all just serves to make her insecurities worse? Or did you mean to say him not being the jealous type makes the weight of her insecurities lighter? But even you did no it doesn’t, in fact it highlights even further the imbalance and one-sidedness of their relationship. Why should Usagi be the only one having to shoulder and be burdened with insecurities and jealousies? Mamoru loves her just as much as she does him doesn’t he? Their feelings are supposed to be on the exact same page and level aren’t they? So why is Usagi the one forced to put all the work into the relationship and better herself for Mamoru so as not to feel threatened while Mamoru doesn’t have to fo diddly squat?!
This is what Naoko meant by the 90’s anime having a male-gazey view in it’s writing, I mean even she was able to bother giving Mamoru a jealousy arc in the manga by making him jealous of Haruka thereby making him feel like the one who has to prove his worth for Usagi rather than it always being the other way around like in the anime so why couldn’t the 90’s anime writers do the same like Naoko did? They deliberately went out of their way to make it seem like Mamoru is flawless and doesn’t have to compete for anything because he just gets stuff handed to him and his relationship with Usagi doesn’t actually emotionally affect him that much, meanwhile Usagi is constantly riddled with anxiety and insecurity and feeling like she needs to prove herself, I’m sorry but that’s not a fair or equal relationship.
Of course jealousy isn’t healthy but in that case the 90’s anime should’ve toned down Usagi’s jealousy and insecurities in order to compensate for Mamoru’s lack of it to make their relationship feel more balanced, not only did they not do this though they made it even worse by heightening it and making her jealousy out to be an irrational joke, all while Mamoru remains cool as a cucumber and is propped up as this oh-so mature guy who never once has to lift a finger of work in their relationship.
Usagi is the one doing all the emotional labor in their relationship in the 90’s anime and any certified relationship therapist can tell you that that’s not a healthy relationship at all.
Made even worse by the fact that again, Mamoru never actually tries to even address her irrational jealousies and reassure her, no just acts like his usual useless exasperated and tired self, how is he even helping her to handle her insecurities in a healthy and productive manner?
And yes it technically is worse and more dysfunctional than Demande and Saphir’s relationship (at least in the jealousy department) because Demande and Saphir aren’t even officially together so of course their feelings wouldn’t be on the same page and jealousy would crop up as an issue, and Demande has no obligation to soothe or return Saphir’s jealous feelings if he doesn’t feel the same way. Meanwhile Mamoru supposedly does return Usagi’s feelings, and so he has an obligation to her as her boyfriend to reassure her and reciprocate her feelings at an equal intensity instead of it being so massively imbalanced between the two. One thing is for sure, by only watching the 90’s anime you can automatically tell Usagi is much more in love with Mamoru than he is with her, and combine that with their widened maturity gap, their messy history from before they got together, and the whole looming destiny in the background tying them together and it’s a big fat mess of a written relationship.
Intent doesn’t matter here, his actions were still emotionally abusive all the same. And he was also emotionally abusive to her back in Classic during that time his “teasing” went to far and she sunk to the ground in tears by implying that any guy who likes her must be as garbage of a person as she is. I’m sorry but that’s not simple playful teasing and banter, that’s bullying and bullying is emotional abuse.
It definitely wasn’t treated as comedic relief though, Usagi was lamenting on it and regretting her bad behavior and thought she had to apologize to Mamoru which we never see Rei or Luna do with her during any of their fights or with Kagome’s sits of Inuyasha - ergo it’s just as much a serious incident of abuse as Demande slamming Saphir into a wall and should be treated as such.
Some of them do if they’re pushovers though.
Because it shows Mamoru’s bullying of her in that episode was enough to effect her to such an extent, I mean come on, Mamoru outright called her garbage to her face and said that any guy she likes must also be garbage because “trash attracts trash.” That goes way beyond the playful tsundere teasing Rei ever did to her and into outright bullying territory!
Except we never see him try to manipulate Esmeraude even once, intentionally or not.
What I’m saying is if he knows how to manipulate then why wasn’t his first plan of action to simply disguise himself as a civilian and woo/court her in regular life using sweet words and gestures? If he’s so good at “manipulating” people like you claim then why couldn’t he try to get Usagi to fall in love with him this way, through seduction?
Why was his first and only option stupidly ambushing her as the enemy and physically forcing himself on her? Which was guaranteed to make her hate him from the start and a method to make certain he’d never have a chance with her.
So is Saphir though your point? Why would he need to manipulate Saphir if he doesn’t have to with Esmeraude when they’re both in love with him?
And yet he doesn’t do the same with Esmeraude so why only manipulate Saphir?
Then how come most of the Japanese SM fandom on Twitter took it that way? Nearly all the comments I’ve seen on that scene have people saying it was a sensual gesture on the part of Demande.
Why don’t you? Just because I ship it?
Also I’m still eagerly waiting your response on why you think Saphir behaves like a monster both in his relationship to Demande and outside of it - Demande yes is an absolute monster towards Saphir, I agree with you there. But when has Saphir ever treated Demande badly, or anyone else for that matter?
Also the only reason why I still ship them and give some leeway on Demande’s abusive actions is because he was both being groomed by Wiseman and was also wearing those Black Crystal Earrings so he likely wasn’t himself and would’ve never slammed Saphir against a wall if not under the influence. (Unlike Usagi who wasn’t under the influence of anything and still quite clearly herself when she slapped and physically abused Mamoru)
It shows that the intensity of their feelings aren’t on the same level though and that Usagi’s the one who’s putting in all the work into their relationship and shouldering the emotional labor while Mamoru gets to relax and do diddly-squat! It’s unequal and not fair.
Mamoru literally broke down sobbing when he heard Fiore was leaving, he gave him a rose as token of his affection for him to remember him by (an idea that came from Usagi but still). They shared a bed staring deeply into each other’s eyes and he’s the one who found Fiore and saved his life by bringing him to the orphanage in the first place and you still don’t think they had a meaningful relationship?!
Just like Demande, Fiore was under the influence of the Kisenian Blossom, so we can’t judge his actions based off of that.
So the Inners outright speculating that Fiore liked Mamoru in a gay way means nothing? Gee, I wonder what could have put the thought in their heads if it was simply just “normal friendship?” /s
Also what kind of “friend” wants to monopolize their “best friend” all to themselves and gets jealous of their “friend’s” significant other? That’s not normal friendship behavior but more like a jealous lover.
Demande is a rapist yes but I believe it’s going too far to call Beryl and Fiore that.
When did they ever attempt to sexually assault Mamoru the way Demande did Usagi?
Do they have issues respecting consent and taking no for an answer? Yes, but that’s not rape. You’re watering down and making light of the term if you describe it outside of any context not involving direct sexual assault.
They share an interest in flowers though, which is still more than any interests Usagi and Mamoru share together.
Ok, I might sound really shallow, but I think we are told that Mamoru is mature, but he is mature only compared to a 14 yo airhead. Let's state what it's clearly implied: Usagi is beautiful, but she doesn't know that she is. Yet. She's still stuck in the teenage paranoia of being fat, of being not enough and whatever. Heck, she is the one with the highest number of suitors in the whole series. And she is funny, and clumsy, and maybe not the smartest of the bunch, but, honestly how many teenagers do actually care about brain when you have a very pretty girl that is showing actual interest and whose goal in life is to take care of her significant other?