Do you think villains got redeemed too much sometimes?

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Neo King Rose

Usagi's Rose
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Sep 13, 2008
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in my aesthetic
I think the reason it feels like there's too many redeemed villains is because there's at least 1 or more per season not every villain gets redeemed but it does [sort of] happen in every arc

granted in Tomoe's case he was possessed by Germatoid but same difference cause Germatoid used Tomoe's identity

I love the idea of villains being redeemed it plays into Usagi being able to see the good in people
I have more complaints about Chiba being kidnapped and brainwashed I don't think either is necessary after Beryl did it
the first time made sense they have a history she wants him for herself yadda yadda and I could argue R movie made sense as well for the same reason but every time after is just padding in my opinion but that's another subject I only bring up as an example of what actually bugs me while redeeming villains doesn't.
 
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While it does happen a lot, the story always emphasized Usagi's pure heart. I don't see it out of the norm that she inspires that change from those who wish to destroy her. It's good cheese. A lot of the villains, particularly the underlings, are brainwashed or forced to do these evil deeds to start with and when they encounter Sailor Moon, they see a different way.

I am very glad Beryl is not redeemed. She got Princess Serenity and Endymion killed. One of the most exciting parts of the series for me is the season finale of Classic when Sailor Moon is alone but is determined to defeat Beryl. It makes me want to shout "get that b*****!".
 
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rgveda99

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Jul 5, 2009
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:usagi: trumps over Netflix Jessica Jones any day. It has some great supporting cast that redeemed themselves only to get f**ked up the next episode or season.

So far I've watched 2 seasons of Jessica Jones and Daredevil along with Defenders. It just gets too toxic (just like the Cannibal arc of The Walking Dead) to think it's part of MCU. That's why I'm keeping away from Luke Cage, Punisher and Iron Fist. Though I've read that they are rebooting Punisher but keeping the same actor.
 
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Yeah, poor Berthier. But it's not hard to imagine that they could have apologized to her later in their ordinary life.
Well of course. But I think it would’ve been nice if Rubeus got a chance to apologize to Koan. Not sure if they would’ve gotten together romantically but they could have made up.
 
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While it does happen a lot, the story always emphasized Usagi's pure heart. I don't see it out of the norm that she inspires that change from those who wish to destroy her. It's good cheese. A lot of the villains, particularly the underlings, are brainwashed or forced to do these evil deeds to start with and when they encounter Sailor Moon, they see a different way.

I am very glad Beryl is not redeemed. She got Princess Serenity and Endymion killed. One of the most exciting parts of the series for me is the season finale of Classic when Sailor Moon is alone but is determined to defeat Beryl. It makes me want to shout "get that b*****!".
I totally agree. Beryl was definitely irredeemable hence why Usagi didn’t hesitate to kill her. But the entire Black Moon Clan was corrupted and manipulated to do their crimes. Hence why Usagi even felt bad for Demande, who previously sexually assaulted her.
 
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I totally agree. Beryl was definitely irredeemable hence why Usagi didn’t hesitate to kill her. But the entire Black Moon Clan was corrupted and manipulated to do their crimes. Hence why Usagi even felt bad for Demande, who previously sexually assaulted her.
Because other than that, it was shown that Demande did care about his men and brother. I believe the sisters also mentioned about him. Nor did the BMC kill Usagi's friends.

Beryl didn't show it. She had her chance to give up but instead went to Metallia for power.

Also in the video game Another Story when they traveled back to the past. Usagi did meet Sage Beryl, she was trying to fight Metalia's corruption and Usagi did feel bad for her, as was a few other senshi like Hotaru. But before that they still defeated her in North Pole again.
 
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I totally agree. Beryl was definitely irredeemable hence why Usagi didn’t hesitate to kill her.
I don't know about irredeemable. I'm not sure I would be comfortable with a depiction of Usagi who, one hundred per cent, did not have any doubt in an action that could end another living creature's existence either, that feels somewhat dissonant to me. I'm certainly not here to tell you to think any differently, but I feel that when you look at archetypes in mythology with whom we could associate with Beryl—Phaedra perhaps—it is not impossible to read Beryl's overall arc as one of tragedy.

Again though, I'm not trying to make you change your opinion, I just think there is room for a different interpretation of how she came to make her choices. Apologies for harkening back to the musicals so often, but I think there is a specific choice made by Queen Serenity in The Legend of Kaguya Island which, from another angle, rightfully vilifies her in the eyes of the antagonists, and I always find such possibilities really interesting.

There is, as they say, more than one way to skin a cat.
 
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Because other than that, it was shown that Demande did care about his men and brother. I believe the sisters also mentioned about him. Nor did the BMC kill Usagi's friends.

Beryl didn't show it. She had her chance to give up but instead went to Metallia for power.

Also in the video game Another Story when they traveled back to the past. Usagi did meet Sage Beryl, she was trying to fight Metalia's corruption and Usagi did feel bad for her, as was a few other senshi like Hotaru. But before that they still defeated her in North Pole again.
Eh, not really. He did legitimately care about Saphir. But he was indifferent to Rubeus and Esmeraude’s deaths. He was willing to sacrifice them if he could get revenge on Crystal Tokyo. And that’s what happened in the end.
 
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Eh, not really. He did legitimately care about Saphir. But he was indifferent to Rubeus and Esmeraude’s deaths. He was willing to sacrifice them if he could get revenge on Crystal Tokyo. And that’s what happened in the end.
He did feel bad for Esmeraude's death. He never asked any of them to die. Even after Rubeus' failure he just wanted to remove him from the commander position rather than "YOU HAVE FAILED ME".

He also didn't pursue the sisters for their betrayal. Overall his doing was for the BMC ppl, and the revenge was also misguided by Wiseman, he was not beyond redemption at all.
 
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He did feel bad for Esmeraude's death. He never asked any of them to die. Even after Rubeus' failure he just wanted to remove him from the commander position rather than "YOU HAVE FAILED ME".

He also didn't pursue the sisters for their betrayal. Overall his doing was for the BMC ppl, and the revenge was also misguided by Wiseman, he was not beyond redemption at all.
Well, I’m not saying he was like Beryl or Galaxia. But he really didn’t care when Esmeraude died, he just said her name and moved on. And when Esmeraude lied to him about Rubeus’ fate, he said he was disappointed in Rubeus. He didn’t really feel bad for them. And of course, they were all misguided by Wiseman.
 
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I don't know about irredeemable. I'm not sure I would be comfortable with a depiction of Usagi who, one hundred per cent, did not have any doubt in an action that could end another living creature's existence either, that feels somewhat dissonant to me. I'm certainly not here to tell you to think any differently, but I feel that when you look at archetypes in mythology with whom we could associate with Beryl—Phaedra perhaps—it is not impossible to read Beryl's overall arc as one of tragedy.

Again though, I'm not trying to make you change your opinion, I just think there is room for a different interpretation of how she came to make her choices. Apologies for harkening back to the musicals so often, but I think there is a specific choice made by Queen Serenity in The Legend of Kaguya Island which, from another angle, rightfully vilifies her in the eyes of the antagonists, and I always find such possibilities really interesting.

There is, as they say, more than one way to skin a cat.
Sure, that’s totally fair. I wouldn’t consider her Pure Evil but it’d be hard to redeem her.
 
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Yeah same here, I would've loved to get more info on their childhood on Nemesis and how they met and joined up with Esmeraude, Rubues & the Sisters. (What I would give for a 90's anime BMC spinoff in particular!)

When you say their storyline was too rushed, do you mean you would've liked to have gotten more lore on the BMC and why they even had to be cleansed in the first place? Because if so I agree, the manga gives us a very detailed background on why the BMC were banished (refused immortality) but in the 90's anime the Silver Crystal granting longevity doesn't exist, so what did they even need to be cleansed of?

I'm still sticking to my headcanon that they're a clan of half demons and the cleansing was originally meant to turn them fully human and get rid of their demonic powers such as Demande's 3rd eye and such. Would make sense why the Ayakashi Sisters are named that since Ayakashi is just another word for Demon in Japanese.



Rubeus I believe is really the only fully evil "human" member of the clan. It's so weird how he's a member being the way he is in the 90's anime. In the 90's anime the BMC are portrayed as ultimately well-intentioned extremists who were just used by Wiseman, whereas in the manga they're actually evil. Someone like 90's Rubeus better fits in with the Manga/Crystal BMC while Manga!Rubeus fits in better with the anime.



I'm not sure if I would count those two in the "never redeemed category," they were just Galaxia's prisoners in the end and working for her against their own free will. They weren't redeemed either, but I don't think they were ever evil to begin with.
Well, that’s simply not true. Saphir was the only moral member of that Clan in the 90’s anime. The others were quite awful (to different degrees obviously). Petz and Calaveras were just as cruel to their younger sisters as Rubeus was. And Esmeraude was a vain, selfish, and jealous woman in the 90s anime. And she was quite ruthless when she wasn’t used for comic relief. She deliberately went to Rubeus when he failed and enjoyed leaving him there to die. And she purposely told Demande a different story afterward. And keep in mind, Rubeus is following Demande’s orders. He truly believed in Demande’s cause to avenge their Clan and was willing to die for it (which is exactly what Wiseman wanted). Rubeus’ problem was that he was to prideful and arrogant which makes him look like an asshole to the viewer. But being an asshole doesn’t mean you’re beyond redemption. He definitely would’ve changed his ways if Usagi was able to save him from his burning UFO after Esmeraude betrayed him.
 

julayla

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Sure, that’s totally fair. I wouldn’t consider her Pure Evil but it’d be hard to redeem her.
And yet the ending of the PC Engine game of Sailor Moon (no matter which character you picked) went for this route with Sailor Moon using the crystal to have her reborn (and it's never revealed if it succeeded or not). It's never confirmed or denied if it's canon or not, but I found it a little strange.
 
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Tsundereshipper

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But I will definitely say Crystal/manga Rubeus is definitely a better person than his anime counterpart.
Which is ironic considering the BMC in the manga were definitely an outright evil organization when compared to the 90's anime more morally grey clan.


Well, that’s simply not true. Saphir was the only moral member of that Clan in the 90’s anime. The others were quite awful (to different degrees obviously). Petz and Calaveras were just as cruel to their younger sisters as Rubeus was. And Esmeraude was a vain, selfish, and jealous woman in the 90s anime. And she was quite ruthless when she wasn’t used for comic relief. She deliberately went to Rubeus when he failed and enjoyed leaving him there to die. And she purposely told Demande a different story afterward. And keep in mind, Rubeus is following Demande’s orders. He truly believed in Demande’s cause to avenge their Clan and was willing to die for it (which is exactly what Wiseman wanted). Rubeus’ problem was that he was to prideful and arrogant which makes him look like an asshole to the viewer. But being an asshole doesn’t mean you’re beyond redemption. He definitely would’ve changed his ways if Usagi was able to save him from his burning UFO after Esmeraude betrayed him.
90's anime Esmeraude never struck me as completely awful, idk maybe it's the way her last episode made her out to be so pitiful & obviously manipulated (Though I still don't like how her ending ultimately went down) or the way they played her up as comedic relief and showed her enjoying everyday things like baths & cakes. They showed a more human side to her that they never showed with Rubeus, who like Jadeite, was just a douche from beginning to end. She was responsible for Rubeus's death sure and then proceeded to cover it up but I always got the feeling there was bad blood between those two in general and I'm not so sure she would've done it to any of the other clan members. Keep in mind too that it could've been corrupted by the Dark Crystal earrings she wore which might''ve further amplified her negative feelings, Saphir might've been the only moral one because he was still himself and refused to wear the earrings. I suppose that also applies to Rubeus, but they never show a sympathetic side to him like they do the rest of the clan so he's harder to sympathize with.
 
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Which is ironic considering the BMC in the manga were definitely an outright evil organization when compared to the 90's anime more morally grey clan.




90's anime Esmeraude never struck me as completely awful, idk maybe it's the way her last episode made her out to be so pitiful & obviously manipulated (Though I still don't like how her ending ultimately went down) or the way they played her up as comedic relief and showed her enjoying everyday things like baths & cakes. They showed a more human side to her that they never showed with Rubeus, who like Jadeite, was just a douhe from beginning to end. She was responsible for Rubeus's death sure and then proceeded to cover it up but I always got the feeling there was bad blood between those two in general and I'm not so sure if she would've done it with any of the other clan members. Keep in mind too that it could've been corrupted by the Dark Crystal earrings she wore which might''ve further amplified her negative feelings, Saphir might've been the only moral one because he was still himself and refused to wear the earrings. I suppose that also applies to Rubeus, but they never show a sympathetic side to him like they do the rest of the clan so he's harder to sympathize with.
Well, the Malefic Black Crystal definitely corrupted Rubeus too. Wiseman corrupted them all, which makes them all pitiful since they weren’t all in a sane state of mind. Unlike Saphir, who was still himself due to him not wearing the earrings. And Rubeus wasn’t awful in the earlier episodes and they are a few nice moments he had with the Spectre Sisters. But he progressively got worse since he was under immense pressure to succeed in his mission. I don’t know if you noticed but everytime Rubeus did something awful, he had earlier spoken to Wiseman. Wiseman was more subtle in the earlier episodes but he was obviously egging Rubeus on. Esmeraude is essentially the Zoisite of the Black Moon Arc. Is played for comedic relief mostly but can be monstrous when needed. Zoisite’s death was played to be pitiful too but that doesn’t change the fact he was a monster for murdering Nephrite. I’m not sure if Rubeus and Esmeraude had bad blood. It was more just of a rivalry in appeasing Demande. Rubeus was just more intimidating and threatening than Esmeraude since he wasn’t used for comedic relief. Additionally, she was willingly go against Demande by blinding him with dark energy so that Usagi could escape. Sure, Demande was in the wrong for that but Esmeraude didn’t do it out of the goodness in her heart. She did it out of vain jealousy for Usagi. So if anyone got in the way of her objective, she was just as willing to take extreme measures. Also that Dragon Esmeraude turned into was a physical manifestation of her emotions and feelings. So she definitely was monstrous too. And I can’t really sympathize with her that much since she went directly went to Wiseman for power knowing that there was a catch. Wiseman didn’t seek her out at all and was quite surprised that she went to him on her own. In the end of the day, Wiseman wanted ALL of them to die for his grand plan. And Rubeus was the first one to sacrifice his life for nothing, if Rubeus knew that he would’ve changed. He’s very aggressive and rude but so was Petz, I don’t see why he wouldn’t change. But I’ll definitely say Rubeus got the bad end of the stick since he should’ve been the most sympathetic member according to the manga. I really wish we saw his and Esmeraude’s backstory in the anime. This is just speculation but I’m sure they both weren’t always this messed up. Wiseman must’ve corrupted them over the years.
 
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Tsundereshipper

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Well, the Malefic Black Crystal definitely corrupted Rubeus too. Wiseman corrupted them all, which makes them all pitiful since they weren’t all in a sane state of mind. Unlike Saphir, who was still himself due to him not wearing the earrings. And Rubeus wasn’t awful in the earlier episodes and they are a few nice moments he had with the Spectre Sisters. But he progressively got worse since he was under immense pressure to succeed in his mission. I don’t know if you noticed but everytime Rubeus did something awful, he had earlier spoken to Wiseman. Wiseman was more subtle in the earlier episodes but he was obviously egging Rubeus on. Esmeraude is essentially the Zoisite of the Black Moon Arc. Is played for comedic relief mostly but can be monstrous when needed. Zoisite’s death was played to be pitiful too but that doesn’t change the fact he was a monster for murdering Nephrite. I’m not sure if Rubeus and Esmeraude had bad blood. It was more just of a rivalry in appeasing Demande. Rubeus was just more intimidating and threatening than Esmeraude since he wasn’t used for comedic relief. Additionally, she was willingly go against Demande by blinding him with dark energy so that Usagi could escape. Sure, Demande was in the wrong for that but Esmeraude didn’t do it out of the goodness in her heart. She did it out of vain jealousy for Usagi. So if anyone got in the way of her objective, she was just as willing to take extreme measures. Also that Dragon Esmeraude turned into was a physical manifestation of her emotions and feelings. So she definitely was monstrous too. And I can’t really sympathize with her that much since she went directly went to Wiseman for power knowing that there was a catch. Wiseman didn’t seek her out at all and was quite surprised that she went to him on her own. In the end of the day, Wiseman wanted ALL of them to die for his grand plan. And Rubeus was the first one to sacrifice his life for nothing, if Rubeus knew that he would’ve changed. He’s very aggressive and rude but so was Petz, I don’t see why he wouldn’t change. But I’ll definitely say Rubeus got the bad end of the stick since he should’ve been the most sympathetic member according to the manga. I really wish we saw his and Esmeraude’s backstory in the anime. This is just speculation but I’m sure they both weren’t always this messed up. Wiseman must’ve corrupted them over the years.
Regarding Esmeraude helping Usagi to escape, to be fair even Saphir didn’t stop her escape purely out of petty jealousy, and he wasn’t even wearing the Black Crystal earrings! So even the so-called most moral member of the BMC doesn’t have a moral high ground to stand on in comparison to Esmeraude when it comes to this department, she really wasn’t that bad. The point I was trying to make on why there might’ve been bad blood between Rubeus and Esmeraude is because I think that could be the reason why she let him die on the ship and openly mocked him, I really don’t think she would’ve done that with any other Clan member, I do think she had history with Rubeus that caused her to harbor a personal grudge towards him. (I suppose the same could also be said for Zoicite and Nephrite but the difference being Zoicite outright killed Nephrite himself rather than just letting him die, and he was more underhanded and manipulative with him in general with the use of Naru than Esmeraude ever was)

I do find it highly ironic however that in the manga Rubeus was the most sympathetic Clan member while in the 90’s anime he was regulated to least sympathetic. (Sans Wiseman of course who I don’t technically count as part of the Clan)