Hotaru/Chibiusa creepy?

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Jun 20, 2013
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#1
someone on my FB recently tagged me in a repost about lgbt characters in Sailor Moon. the post even talked about characters who were gender swapped for the dubs:

SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT

EPISODE III

HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE SERIES

(Feel free to laugh at the “Straight” thing there)


Sailor Moon is famous for having a comparatively large cast of gay, bi and lesbian characters, and, depending on interpretation, trans* ones as well. The English dub is rather infamous for CENSORING these characters’ sexualities (though it’s far from the only dub to do this), so a lot of people who have never seen the Japanese version of the series did not know the truth about the characters. The usual method of censorship was gender-swapping, but when that was not possible, the relationship between the characters was changed to be...familial. (Which is its own can of worms right there.) For the most part I will be discussing canonical representations of LGBT characters, but there are a few (as you see in the picture here) that are debatable. For the debatable ones, I will put “FANON” next to them. And there are some fanon interpretations I’m not going to discuss at all since I don’t feel there’s enough evidence for them.


USAGI (FANON)

Usagi’s one true love is Mamoru and that is indisputable. However, in the manga, she doesn’t exactly act 100% straight, which makes me suspect she is bi-curious at least. This panel is from the Dark Kingdom arc, Act III. She has just seen Rei for the first time, and...well, this is not exactly a typical reaction a girl has for another girl. Usagi has hearts in her eyes and she’s dazedly following Rei (because she’s so pretty) instead of remembering her mission. Later on in the Infinity Arc, her reactions to Haruka are kind of interesting. It’s clear that while on one hand she is guilty because she feels that letting Haruka/Uranus kiss her (twice!) is a betrayal of Mamoru, she’s also guilty because she clearly feels attracted to Haruka, and isn’t quite sure which gender Haruka is.

ZOISITE AND KUNZITE

Zoisite was the first of the English dub’s victims to get a gender swap. That’s right, Zoycite’s a dude. It was easily pulled off (as were many of the other gender swaps) because Zoisite is effeminate, but notice that, comparatively speaking, “she’s” very flat-chested. As far as their relationship goes, it’s clearly romantic, and such a major part of their characters, DiC couldn’t just cut all the scenes out and walk off whistling. One thing that is important to remember is that Zoisite and Kunzite are NOT a couple in the manga, nor are they gay. This is because Naoko Takeuchi had an aborted idea where the 4 Generals would be paired off with the 4 Inners (Mars/Jadeite, Mercury/Zoisite, Jupiter/Nephrite, Venus/Kunzite). Only Venus/Kunzite got any sort of development whatsoever (beyond Jadeite being attracted to Rei) but still shouldn’t be considered canon.

HARUKA & MICHIRU

Cloverway tried to disguise their relationship as “cousins,” but left in all the scenes of them being physically affectionate, and the romantic music accompanying them. So...more than a few kids just saw these cousins acting like lesbians. A+ job there, Cloverway. Haruka & Michiru are one of the most famous lesbian (or yuri, if you prefer) couples in anime. They are never shown kissing in the series (except in Sera Myu), but their body language and demeanour towards each other makes the nature of their relationship obvious. Haruka also clearly has a crush on Usagi, as she flirts with her constantly (and kisses her twice in the manga). Also, by the SuperS movie and the Stars TV series, they’re making innuendo at each other constantly, so their relationship has at least by then become a sexual one. They have lived together since the beginning of the S series, but by Stars, Setsuna has moved in with them, and the three of them raise baby Hotaru. Hotaru refers to Michiru and Setsuna as “Michiru-mama” and “Setsuna-mama,” but calls Haruka “Haruka-papa.” There were a few homophobes trying to argue that Haruka & Michiru weren’t a couple because they weren’t shown kissing, but let’s point and laugh at them.

TAMASABUROU (FANON)

We don’t actually see any evidence for Tamasaburou’s sexuality (he might be too young for that) but the reason why I included him is because he was another victim of a gender swap in the Cloverway S dub. His name was kept the same, but he became a she. Another easy swap since Tamasaburou is also effeminate. This change was made because, at the end of the episode, he cross-dresses as a Sailor Senshi after becoming inspired by Sailors Moon & Chibi-Moon. Usagi and Chibiusa are weirded out by this, but what is even funnier is that Haruka and Michiru are weirded out by him too. Cross-dressing can be considered under the umbrella of homosexuality (e.g. the drag queen) BUT it does not necessarily mean the character is gay.

FISHEYE

Also a dude! Surpriiise! Fisheye can be interpreted as one of the trans* characters in the series, because Naoko Takeuchi describes Fisheye as “wanting to be a she” in her notes in the Materials Collection. Fisheye is also probably one of the most effeminate males in the series, and also enjoys cross-dressing. And he is definitely gay, since he prefers attacking male victims for their Dream Mirrors, and harbours an extremely deep crush on Mamoru, even kissing him while he’s unconscious at one point. Before the S and SuperS dubs came out, basically everyone predicted that Fisheye would get the “Zoisite treatment.” What we couldn’t have predicted was Zirconia’s gender swap. Like...why? What was the point of that?

YOSHIKI USUI (FANON)

This is one of Fisheye’s victims. I think the screenshot is pretty definitive, but the reason why this is considered fanon is because Usui is only in one episode and it’s never actually confirmed for sure what his sexuality is. Fisheye approaches him as he actually is, not in drag, which is a sign right there, but the body language of his assistant shown here tells me that they’re more than friends. Another clue is that the assistant was changed to be Usui’s “brother” in the Cloverway dub. They wouldn’t have felt that was necessary if they didn’t suspect something.

SEIYA

Now here’s a weird one - Seiya gets a partial gender swap in the ANIME. In the manga, the Three Lights are biologically women, and just cross-dress as men. In the anime, they physically become men while in civilian form, and transform back into women. But either way, Seiya is biologically female, and canonically in love with Usagi. As for why this change was made in the anime, I’ll discuss that further in the full Starlights topic once it’s won the votes. There is some theorizing that Seiya’s love for Princess Kakyuu transferred over to the similar Usagi, but I do think that Seiya’s love for her was genuine. One thing that is a little irritating in the anime is that Usagi clearly tells Seiya repeatedly that she has a boyfriend, and yet he keeps pushing his affections. At least near the end she accepts that Usagi has not chosen her, nor will she ever choose anyone but Mamoru. A lot of people prefer Seiya as Usagi’s ideal match, though I do find it kind of suspicious how many of them “conveniently” forget that Seiya’s a she.

SAILORS LEAD CROW & ALUMINUM SEIREN (FANON)

Another one that is never actually confirmed in the series (anime only), but I think there’s enough evidence that there was something between them. What I don’t think is that they ever were able to enter into a relationship since being under Sailor Galaxia probably had more than a few stresses. But Lead Crow repeatedly goes out of her way to help out Seiren, and gets frustrated at her ditziness not because she dislikes her, but because she’s scared for her. When Seiren dies, Lead Crow wraps her arms around her protectively, and clearly never gets over her death. She still thinks about her and talks about her often. And, when Tin Nyanko causes her death, Lead Crow’s last words were, “I’m sorry, Seiren.”


- Manga panels by Miss Dream, anime screenshots by me
- Some info borrowed from Wikimoon.


i commented on the fact that it didn't mention Hotaru, the original poster wrote back saying " I think she's too young to really determine a sexuality for, and that people are misinterpreting her affection for Chibiusa. Little girls are usually affectionate with each other. ~Hotaru"
and when i linked to this page from the manga, adding a =P just because i think personally this is a pretty clear indication of crush-like feelings, and thought it was a bit silly to overlook it simply because of her young age. i got back "SHE'S A CHILD. She's holding hands with her best friend, and she sees it as normal because she sees Usagi and Mamoru hold hands all the time. Don't bring this up again, or I'm deleting it. I find the whole attempt to sexualize Hotaru and Chibiusa sickening. ~Hotaru"
i wasn't trying to offend the person nor was i trying to sexualize her.. romantic love is not always acted upon or even really talked about especially at a young age but i do think that people early on in life can definitely feel that they like someone in a distinctly separate way than they would a friend. what do you guys think about this, and about Hotaru's feelings for Chibiusa?
personally i don't understand the objections; i know that it isn't explicitly stated and i don't think anything would have been expressed between the two of them even when they aged, because Chibiusa seemed to have feelings for Helios and probably would have acted on those before anything else, but i still think there was something there.
am i being a creep? .-.;
 
Aug 31, 2011
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The Nostromo
#2
Hrrrmmm.... Well, I'm not sure. I always hear that LGBT people say that they "were born gay," but, I didn't recognize my own sexuality until I was about fifteen or sixteen years old. However, I vaguely recall me kissing other boys at a young age, and my boyfriend is also my childhood friend that I've known since I was two. I couldn't tell you if I was attracted to him at a young age, although I think it's a possibility (I doubt it).
So to say that Hotaru is "to young for that," I'm not sure. There are arguments for both sides.
 
Feb 12, 2012
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#4
Come on, Hotaru and Chibiusa were just good friends, clearly different from Zoi x Kun and Ruka x Michi
 
#5
I do think it's possible that Hotaru could have had a crush on Chibiusa in the manga. I was actually the same age as she was in the Mugen arc when I realized I was attracted to women. Regardless, I think their relationship was closer than normal friends, be it sister like or semi-romantic.
 

SailorSophia

Luna Crescens
Jun 3, 2013
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Why dont you guess chav?
ask.fm
#6
just searched up who Tamasaburou was.... ._.

Damm.. Though about Zoisite and Kunzite,there was one panel in the manga with them,that I was quite unsure of but neverless I think they had a hidden relationship which is my opinion and if you dont like it well..

Hotaru and Chibiusa are 5 right? Maybe there just growing up? I think they are just good friends, maybe leave her with helios.
 
Feb 12, 2012
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#7
Well, technically, Chibiusa is way older, just that she doesn't age.
 
Likes: HappyMoon

Rika-Chicchi

Staff member
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May 7, 2009
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#9
Hotaru seemed to harbor a crush on that athlete in the anime, tho, so she could be either straight or bi. :)
 
Jun 20, 2013
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#10
right, Chibiusa is supposed to be over 900 years old in the manga, and Hotaru's age on the wiki is listed between 8-11. i actually got my first boyfriend when i was 11 so i don't think that that's too young an age to know you like someone. she's 11 in Stars, right? i thought that she was around that age in her first appearance in Mugen as well but was she meant to be 8 then? Chibiusa looks younger than her, i always thought she looked about 8.
ah, that's true! also, about the bi thing, this is a bit off subject but i always thought Michiru was bi even though i always see fans refer to her and Haruka both as lesbians. but wasn't there a series of scenes in the Mugen arc of the manga where Michiru flirts with Mamoru at the same time Haruka is flirting with Usagi? she's not as forward but i remember them both asking the other two out to the same concert and always thought she had kind of a thing for him then.
 

Rika-Chicchi

Staff member
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May 7, 2009
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#11
chibi chibi in bliss said:
right, Chibiusa is supposed to be over 900 years old in the manga, and Hotaru's age on the wiki is listed between 8-11. i actually got my first boyfriend when i was 11 so i don't think that that's too young an age to know you like someone. she's 11 in Stars, right? i thought that she was around that age in her first appearance in Mugen as well but was she meant to be 8 then?
She was 12 in S, & looked like an 8-y.o. or so in Stars. :wink: BTW, I've also got my 1st GF when I was 11, tho I'd had a number crushes before then. XD
 
#12
Apollo Gramarye said:
Hrrrmmm.... Well, I'm not sure. I always hear that LGBT people say that they "were born gay," but, I didn't recognize my own sexuality until I was about fifteen or sixteen years old.
Same here. I was never perfectly "straight", ever since I started having any kind of sexual feelings (11 or 12 y.o.) I was a bit bi-curious and for a few years I was bisexual. Now I'm a lesbian with no intentions or desire of getting romantically or sexually involved with a man.

chibi chibi in bliss said:
personally i don't understand the objections; i know that it isn't explicitly stated and i don't think anything would have been expressed between the two of them even when they aged, because Chibiusa seemed to have feelings for Helios and probably would have acted on those before anything else, but i still think there was something there.
am i being a creep? .-.;
I always thought that it was just that they had some secret chemistry that made them a cute yuri pairing, but those manga pages you pasted made me change my mind. ^_^' It does still seem to me that they are good friends, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be something else as well. It's possible that they are some sort of "eternal companions" (IDK :p ), bound by both platonic and romantic love but not necessarily by sexual feelings.

Chibi Chibi Swifty said:
If kids younger as 5 can tell they were born in the wrong body, then kids that young can know they are gay.. just like anyone else it is different.

it is also possible that they are close like sisters. so they could or couldn't be
According to my understanding it's fairly rare for little children to recognise this stuff, though.

Mamo Two-Face said:
Come on, Hotaru and Chibiusa were just good friends, clearly different from Zoi x Kun and Ruka x Michi
Really? :P "I feel like I've given my daughter away as a bride", "'Even though we're both girls, I think it must've been fate... it must've been our destinies joining together' 'I think so too'"? Especially that bride-thing is definitely too much to be just something fished out by yuri fanboys, unless the translator isn't involved in here I'd say Naoko put it in there on purpose.
 

Rika-Chicchi

Staff member
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May 7, 2009
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#13
Chibi Chibipon said:
Chibi Chibi Swifty said:
If kids younger as 5 can tell they were born in the wrong body, then kids that young can know they are gay.. just like anyone else it is different.

it is also possible that they are close like sisters. so they could or couldn't be
According to my understanding it's fairly rare for little children to recognise this stuff, though.
While sexual orientations can still be ambiguous to them at that tender age, they're more readily to feel that they're "trapped" in the body of the opposite gender if they're really so. :)
 
Jun 20, 2013
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#14
"eternal companions" is a good way of putting it. with a lot of the senshi I feel like there were varying degrees of commitment and love that seemed to overlap with the way you'd treat a romantic interest even though the girls (except for Haruka and Michiru) never acted on it. I don't necessarily think they were all in love but there are bonds between some of them that could easily develop into romantic love if they chose to go that way with each other if that makes sense? like Minako and Rei in the manga for instance. there are such strong ties between certain members of the group that seem more than friendly. Hotaru and Chibiusa being one of the major ones. in Ai Yazawa's Nana and in Evangelion I feel like Hachi and Nana and Shinji and Kaworu have the same kinds of relationships. whether or not I ship them as a couple or just think coupley pictures or scenes between them or cute, there's always been something about that kind of dynamic that I like, and because my best friend and I are this way I feel like I can relate a lot to it. I just don't think that every time someone falls in love sex has to be involved. there are so many different kinds of love and though it is a hard thing to explain I think you can be in love with someone and just be close to them, hold their hand, take care of them, and let that be entirely enough.
 
Aug 31, 2011
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The Nostromo
#17
Zhortac said:
Someone looked WAY too far into a friendship between two CHILDREN.

It's like the weirdos that think, when two characters hate and want to kill each other, they secretly want each other...it's stupid.
Usually, I'd agree with you, however, I'm not necessarily looking into an actual Hotaru/ChibiUsa pairing so much as pointing out the possibility of someone their age having a romantic attraction. It is certainly plausible for children as young as 12 to develop a crush or romantic attraction to another person. However, yes, people tend to take shipping too far, and this is probably one of those times. However, it's not uncalled for for couples to have known each other at an early age and having a relationship develop over the years. My relationship with my boyfriend possibly being one of them.
 
#18
chibi chibi in bliss said:
"eternal companions" is a good way of putting it. with a lot of the senshi I feel like there were varying degrees of commitment and love that seemed to overlap with the way you'd treat a romantic interest even though the girls (except for Haruka and Michiru) never acted on it. I don't necessarily think they were all in love but there are bonds between some of them that could easily develop into romantic love if they chose to go that way with each other if that makes sense? like Minako and Rei in the manga for instance. there are such strong ties between certain members of the group that seem more than friendly. Hotaru and Chibiusa being one of the major ones.
Yeah. These kinds of relationships are pretty typical of Takeuchi, in the manga any way.
 

trendyfunlover

Lumen Cinererum
Feb 12, 2013
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Somewhere in Neverland
#19
chibi chibi in bliss said:
I just don't think that every time someone falls in love sex has to be involved. there are so many different kinds of love and though it is a hard thing to explain I think you can be in love with someone and just be close to them, hold their hand, take care of them, and let that be entirely enough.
Congratulations! :ohmy: You've won the first price of being the first person who thinks the same way about me on this thingy. And the price is... nothing actually. :P Anyways, you're really the first person I've seen think, like this way. ;)

As for the question, I think they are really close friends, more like sisters. :o I mean, like a lot of girls say they'd do anything for their BFF, consider them the sister they wanted to have/never had ("I feel like we were destined to meet") and love them to pieces. I don't that makes 'em, like officially gay. (no offense to gays/lesbians) And that for me is, like plain stupid. :| Talking about stupidity, did I seem smart writing this? :P Anyways, I also think that Hotaru's age was, like old enough to feel something but not to tell. I mean, c'mon, I've had my first crush when I was, like 9. And it was a boy I knew, not a movie star. But anyways, don't worry, cuz somebody will, like ruin all that I wrote. Guaranteed. :D Like in... well, some time. :P Oh, and for the Lead Crow/Seiren pairing, I like it but I don't think they were more than just friends. I mean, like wouldn't somebody be very sad if their friend moved away or worse, died? :o I always remember that scene in which Lead Crow looks at a photograph with Seiren and says she would've smiled a bit more if she knew it was the last time. I think every person would feel that way if something happened to their friend + when she says I'm sorry before she dies, I think it was for, like not avenging her friend. ;) I mean, like c'mon, a crow + a seiren (I know seiren or siren means mermaid in Italian or Spanish) don't mix. P-: And finally, I'm done. :keke:
 
Jun 20, 2013
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#20
i actually really hate when people just pair characters randomly or take a tense relationship and make it sexual tension, i also can't stand when there are two characters who clearly love each other in a purely platonic way (like a lot of characters in One Piece for example) and they make it out as if everyone wants to [BLEEP] everyone else all the time always just because they smiled and made a friend. that being said, i wouldn't have started the topic if i didn't think it was more than that in the canon to begin with. i don't think it was something physical, at all.
i felt strange for bringing it up in the first place but was really curious about other people's interpretations. personally i just see some relationships as being close and intimate and beyond sex, in a really beautiful way and Naoko is really good at this kind of thing.
yeah, i definitely think the Seiren/Crow thing was taken a bit too far, i know from personal experience a close family friend and my mom's best friend died a couple of years ago and she looks at her and the situation the same way; she cries when she remembers her, is totally devastated to be without her and misses her dearly however they were only friends.
i'm glad someone else thinks of love this way :innocent:
i honestly wish there were alternative words for "best friend" and "love" because there are times when those don't cut it, they're overused and can be confusing when trying to explain a particular kind of relationship. i'm in love with someone and that doesn't mean i want to sleep with them or even kiss them or that i'll get jealous if they get a partner. there's a place that lies between friends and lovers that is not easy to achieve or explain but when it is actually achieved it's very beautiful. there aren't enough terms to describe the bond you can have with someone like that.