I rewatched Cosmos today... and it got worse

[HappyMoon]

Something interesting about the movie, and maybe there is a translation screw up but the official english dialogue claims Sailor Chaos was defeated and then Sailor Cosmos was so blackpilled she went back in time.

However, in the 3 translations of the manga I have read* the heavy implication is that Cosmos went back in time because Sailor Chaos was too powerful to defeat. I also recently read 2 fan mangas (one in English, one Japanese) which clearly depicted Cosmos returning to the future in order to fight Chaos. This leads me to believe that either Netflix's subs/dub made a mistake, or Takeuchi or whoever tweaked things.

Also, the movie is less ambigious and in a way, more optimistic than the Manga regarding Sailor Cosmos' identity and fate. The implication of the movie is very heavily that Sailor Cosmos is 100% an evolution of Neo Queen Serenity. Maybe this means she is NQS when she gets her Senshi powers back, or something else. Point is there is much less room to interpret her as say from a possible future or for her to be literally anyone else other than Usagi/NQS deeper into the future.**

Furthermore, not only does she succeed in defeating Chaos but Guardian Cosmos' dialogue also seems to be different and more optimistic. In the manga translation I have, Guardian Cosmos' last few lines have her saying Chaos is gone but could return because everything is possible in the Galaxy Cauldron. However, the movie's subs and dub actually have her say if Chaos returns she is sure Sailor Moon will defend everyone. Which sort of corroborates the earlier statement in the movie that Sailor Chaos was defeated.

Finally, the framing of Sailor Cosmos's melancholy is different. In the manga Sailor Cosmos's dialogue leads us to believe that Chaos is too powerful to be defeated, has annihilated A LOT of the galaxy and that things can never be the same. Sailor Cosmos, naturally, is left wondering what is she even fighting for.

However, the movie's presentation of events frames it more as the price of victory being so high Sailor Cosmos is left wondering whether it was worth it. Of course you could argue that her POV was the same as in the manga, the difference being that, even after defeating Chaos, there are more villains still around to fight. However, the fact that Sailor Chaos was defeated imo changes everything. Because, with Chaos defeated, it more or less means Cosmos is just kind of...tired? Plus the flashbacks (er, flashforwards I guess) seem to imply the war with Sailor Chaos was predominantly on Crystal Tokyo.

Like in the manga it was a case of she is up against an enemy that is too much for her to defeat, so it seems like there is no hope, other than the idea that everyone will endlessly go through this cycle of life/death/rebirth. However, in the movie, she kind of is just looking at things from a glass half empty POV. There is no dialogue asserting that things could never be as they were before, so she could use her OP restoration magic to just fix everything. Like, why can't she just resurrect everyone? Or go back to the Galaxy Cauldron to factory reset everything the way Eternal Sailor Moon did?

In the manga, I, and I presume most everyone else, presumed this was not an option because she couldn't defeat Sailor Chaos.

I'm not even saying this as a criticism strictly speaking, more an observation. Perhaps she forgot she could do that? Perhaps the message here is that as she grew older and more jaded she lost touch with her youthful optimism? I've always interpreted that being the message at the end of the manga in regards to the Usagi/Cosmos relationship

*2018 Kodansha, Miss Dream and Mixx. Never read the 2011 Kodansha translation

**To my knowledge, one of the musicals implies Cosmos might in fact be Chibi-Usa in the future.

There are also a couple of major translation mistakes in the Italian Netflix translation. I have no idea how they came up with those.

Anyway, as I’m not a native speaker, I find the English version a bit unclear about whether she might have defeated Sailor Chaos in the future. It’s not explicitly stated, is it? I hope I’m making sense, lol.

 

[Al Evans]

There are also a couple of major translation mistakes in the Italian Netflix translation. I have no idea how they came up with those.

Anyway, as I’m not a native speaker, I find the English version a bit unclear about whether she might have defeated Sailor Chaos in the future. It’s not explicitly stated, is it? I hope I’m making sense, lol.

Paraphrasing the exact dialogue from the Netflix sub:

This is my fault because I am nothing but a coward. I selfishly ran from an overwhelming future. I simply abandoned everything.

My history is littered with repeated massacres. A prolonged and arduous battle with Sailor Chaos...

...Sailor Chaos was very powerful, almost impossible to defeat. The fighting continued. It seemed endless. The damage Chaos inflicted, and the price we paid, were far too great. I didn't know what to do. I asked myself "What are we fighting for?"

The Netflix English Dub is identical.

However, here is the dialogue from an unofficial sub I found:

I'm nothing but a coward who comes from a future too distant to contemplate. I gave up on everything and fled here.

For all eternity there are constant slaughters, and a long, hard fought battle with Sailor Chaos...

...Sailor Chaos was strong and immense. I had no hope of beating her. The fight continued for a long, long time. The damage done, the price paid was too great. I just didn't know anymore. What was all the fighting for? What was the right answer? "

Now, something important to bear in mind. In 2023, there was an fansub of the Cosmos films circulating which to my understanding did not do a ground up translation of the film itself, but rather used the 2018 Kodansha translations of the Manga as the basis for the fansub. I personally suspect that the above dialogue is derived from that specific fansub because here is Sailor Cosmos's dialogue from the 2018 English Manga:

I come from a future too distant to contemplate. I abandoned my fight with Sailor Chaos. I gave up on everything, and I fled here.

Constant slaughter.

Long, hard-fought battles.

Our new enemy, Sailor Chaos, was strong and immense.

I had no hope of defeating her if I kept fighting as I had before.

Even if I did defeat her, even if I did take back the peace that had been ours, the damage done...the prices paid...were too great.

Nothing would truly be the same.

I just didn't know anymore. What was all the fighting for? What was the right answer? What was I supposed to do?

As you can see, the word choices in the fansub are eerily similar to those from the manga translation.

 

[Memelord_Yoshi]

I didn't go on a tangent, the thing is that it's a common complaint that Stars had the same structure as the other seasons, it stuck to the same MotW format and therefore it feels as more of the same rather than a grand finale. But surely such criticism may not be all there is to it, and it may not be your main point now that you developed it further. Still, I'll agree with you that anime Stars could (should?) have added some nods to the events and characters that have come before, even though I still think the connections you mention the manga had are largely overblown, more on that later.


My problem with this way of reading is that what you call "building off elements shown in previous arcs" is more like retconing and bringing up ideas only to not develop them further. Phobos and Deimos being aliens comes out of nowhere in the Dream Arc and it's never explained or detailed, then it's suddenly brought up again in Stars and it's still inconsequential. The cats being from another planet is also something that comes out of the blue and is never developed. The existence of other Sailors out of the Solar System and everyone having Sailor Crystals are new concepts and, while I'll concede that the Silver Crystal attracting enemies is a nice touch, the way it's mentioned is so brief (just like the mentions of past villains) it becomes one more element in a disjointed parade of ideas that are never explored. If this makes you feel like a more fitting finale, that's great. But the way I see it, it's clinging to crumbles, overrating and overblowing throwaway elements. One more time, if it works for you (and apparently it works for a considerable part of the fandom), great. However, while I can say something is not my cup of tea while recognising it has a lot of merit, it's hard to see manga Stars as anything but a messy patchwork of shock value and platitudes.


And yet moving into deep space makes no difference whatsoever, Galaxia's base might as well have been on a mountain in Tibet of an underground military facility in Arizona.



I knew the popularity of the anime waned, especially after SuperS, but I was wondering if the manga also saw such a sharp decrease in popularity as well.

A lot of people love saying SuperS would’ve been a success if it had stuck to the manga, and I wonder, ' really? Are you sure about that? Do you even know where the series ranked in its fourth year in Nakayoshi? Let alone the fifth.'
Sometimes I wonder... what if Toei really did want to change a large part of the plot for TV because of the poor results in Nakayoshi? I know that’s not the reason for the changes, but it does make me wonder.

 

[Al Evans]

For the record, I think some of the critiques of anime stars is misguided. MOTW format was innate and integral to the identity of Sailor Moon, not just from a production reality POV but also a 'that's why I came here' POV.

When Super Sentai seasons get to their latter arcs they still have MOTW story structures they just get very ambitious in how they utilise them. The fact that the MOTW in Stars were humans turned into Senshi I think qualifies as that and more to the point the season was shorter so it wasn't like there was a big abundance of that sort of thing. how many MOTW did we deal with before we got to Iron Mouse's death? Maybe ten?

The notion that Stars was flawed because it had the same story structure as prior seasons is also inaccurate. Stars did have 4 arcs like every season (exempting SuperS which kind of only had 2). However, the first of those was a highly ambitious filler free 6 episode arc which re-did the ending of SuperS. The final arc with Tin Nyanko also focussed much more upon the inter-personal drama of Usagi/Seiya and their respective Senshi teams than it did upon the MOTW. It was also relatively short with few MOTW centric episodes before we hit the multi-part climax where everyone battled Galaxia. The latter itself was different to prior arcs as we'd never had a situation where it was ostensibly everyone vs. this one specific villain for multiple episodes. That was something you saw in DBZ but not Sailor Moon.

Furthermore, Stars reverting to the traditional story structure if anything was a streangth not a weakness as it's mission statement was to win people back over after SuperS had burned them. There is a reason Chibi-Usa abruptly disappears off screen. There is a reason the first 6 episodes are a do-over of Nehelennia but with the Outers. There is a reason the season puts the focus squarely upon Usagi and weaves her into every narrative more often than not. People didn't like Sailor Moon not being the main character in her own show.

The notion that the season wasn't a grand finale is...I'm sorry, I have to question what people were watching if they feel that way. It was 100% a grand finale in so many ways. It returned to aspects of the show in overt and subtle ways that had not been touched upon in a while. The show in a sense was 'summing itself up' before bowing out, but even then, how do you watch the last several episodes and not say 'this is a grand finale'. It was an absolute reaffirmation in the most action packed of ways of who Usagi is, what she was all about. It developed her organically into the person we know she will be in Crystal Tokyo. By episode 200 you have absolute confidence that she has what it takes to build Crystal Tokyo tomorrow because what is that feat next to saving the Galaxy through her empathy. She defeated, but did not kill, the most powerful Senshi of all time, thereby proving her own power to be superior.

 

[Late to the Game]

For the record, I think some of the critiques of anime stars is misguided. MOTW format was innate and integral to the identity of Sailor Moon, not just from a production reality POV but also a 'that's why I came here' POV.

When Super Sentai seasons get to their latter arcs they still have MOTW story structures they just get very ambitious in how they utilise them. The fact that the MOTW in Stars were humans turned into Senshi I think qualifies as that and more to the point the season was shorter so it wasn't like there was a big abundance of that sort of thing. how many MOTW did we deal with before we got to Iron Mouse's death? Maybe ten?

The notion that Stars was flawed because it had the same story structure as prior seasons is also inaccurate. Stars did have 4 arcs like every season (exempting SuperS which kind of only had 2). However, the first of those was a highly ambitious filler free 6 episode arc which re-did the ending of SuperS. The final arc with Tin Nyanko also focussed much more upon the inter-personal drama of Usagi/Seiya and their respective Senshi teams than it did upon the MOTW. It was also relatively short with few MOTW centric episodes before we hit the multi-part climax where everyone battled Galaxia. The latter itself was different to prior arcs as we'd never had a situation where it was ostensibly everyone vs. this one specific villain for multiple episodes. That was something you saw in DBZ but not Sailor Moon.

Furthermore, Stars reverting to the traditional story structure if anything was a streangth not a weakness as it's mission statement was to win people back over after SuperS had burned them. There is a reason Chibi-Usa abruptly disappears off screen. There is a reason the first 6 episodes are a do-over of Nehelennia but with the Outers. There is a reason the season puts the focus squarely upon Usagi and weaves her into every narrative more often than not. People didn't like Sailor Moon not being the main character in her own show.

The notion that the season wasn't a grand finale is...I'm sorry, I have to question what people were watching if they feel that way. It was 100% a grand finale in so many ways. It returned to aspects of the show in overt and subtle ways that had not been touched upon in a while. The show in a sense was 'summing itself up' before bowing out, but even then, how do you watch the last several episodes and not say 'this is a grand finale'. It was an absolute reaffirmation in the most action packed of ways of who Usagi is, what she was all about. It developed her organically into the person we know she will be in Crystal Tokyo. By episode 200 you have absolute confidence that she has what it takes to build Crystal Tokyo tomorrow because what is that feat next to saving the Galaxy through her empathy. She defeated, but did not kill, the most powerful Senshi of all time, thereby proving her own power to be superior.

I'm typing with my feet because my hands won't stop clapping.

 

[kasumigenx]

There is a reason Chibi-Usa abruptly disappears off screen. People didn't like Sailor Moon not being the main character in her own show.

Nor did Naoko initially plan for Chibiusa to return to Stars as I had said earlier in other threads, it was a decision that she made when Stars is being serialized.

 

[Lady Pen]

Something interesting about the movie, and maybe there is a translation screw up but the official english dialogue claims Sailor Chaos was defeated and then Sailor Cosmos was so blackpilled she went back in time.

However, in the 3 translations of the manga I have read* the heavy implication is that Cosmos went back in time because Sailor Chaos was too powerful to defeat. I also recently read 2 fan mangas (one in English, one Japanese) which clearly depicted Cosmos returning to the future in order to fight Chaos. This leads me to believe that either Netflix's subs/dub made a mistake, or Takeuchi or whoever tweaked things.

Also, the movie is less ambigious and in a way, more optimistic than the Manga regarding Sailor Cosmos' identity and fate. The implication of the movie is very heavily that Sailor Cosmos is 100% an evolution of Neo Queen Serenity. Maybe this means she is NQS when she gets her Senshi powers back, or something else. Point is there is much less room to interpret her as say from a possible future or for her to be literally anyone else other than Usagi/NQS deeper into the future.**

Furthermore, not only does she succeed in defeating Chaos but Guardian Cosmos' dialogue also seems to be different and more optimistic. In the manga translation I have, Guardian Cosmos' last few lines have her saying Chaos is gone but could return because everything is possible in the Galaxy Cauldron. However, the movie's subs and dub actually have her say if Chaos returns she is sure Sailor Moon will defend everyone. Which sort of corroborates the earlier statement in the movie that Sailor Chaos was defeated.

Finally, the framing of Sailor Cosmos's melancholy is different. In the manga Sailor Cosmos's dialogue leads us to believe that Chaos is too powerful to be defeated, has annihilated A LOT of the galaxy and that things can never be the same. Sailor Cosmos, naturally, is left wondering what is she even fighting for.

However, the movie's presentation of events frames it more as the price of victory being so high Sailor Cosmos is left wondering whether it was worth it. Of course you could argue that her POV was the same as in the manga, the difference being that, even after defeating Chaos, there are more villains still around to fight. However, the fact that Sailor Chaos was defeated imo changes everything. Because, with Chaos defeated, it more or less means Cosmos is just kind of...tired? Plus the flashbacks (er, flashforwards I guess) seem to imply the war with Sailor Chaos was predominantly on Crystal Tokyo.

Like in the manga it was a case of she is up against an enemy that is too much for her to defeat, so it seems like there is no hope, other than the idea that everyone will endlessly go through this cycle of life/death/rebirth. However, in the movie, she kind of is just looking at things from a glass half empty POV. There is no dialogue asserting that things could never be as they were before, so she could use her OP restoration magic to just fix everything. Like, why can't she just resurrect everyone? Or go back to the Galaxy Cauldron to factory reset everything the way Eternal Sailor Moon did?

In the manga, I, and I presume most everyone else, presumed this was not an option because she couldn't defeat Sailor Chaos.

I'm not even saying this as a criticism strictly speaking, more an observation. Perhaps she forgot she could do that? Perhaps the message here is that as she grew older and more jaded she lost touch with her youthful optimism? I've always interpreted that being the message at the end of the manga in regards to the Usagi/Cosmos relationship

*2018 Kodansha, Miss Dream and Mixx. Never read the 2011 Kodansha translation

**To my knowledge, one of the musicals implies Cosmos might in fact be Chibi-Usa in the future.

But if Sailor Cosmos is NQS, why didn't she revive everyone in the end? NQS did it after Death Phantom was defeated, and even Usagi did so when Saturn took Pharaoh 90 away. Why the sadness??? She is the goddess, the super powerful queen turned into a more powerful Senshi.

I don't understand anything.............................................................................................................. How would you explain this?

 

[Al Evans]

But if Sailor Cosmos is NQS, why didn't she revive everyone in the end? NQS did it after Death Phantom was defeated, and even Usagi did so when Saturn took Pharaoh 90 away. Why the sadness??? She is the goddess, the super powerful queen turned into a more powerful Senshi.

I don't understand anything.............................................................................................................. How would you explain this?

I do not know. But, by the same token, why couldn't Sailor Cosmos just restore everything the way she did as Chibi Chibi when Galaxia attacked Juban? Chibi Chibi is Sailor Cosmos with depleted energy so you would think at full strength she could do it.

My suggestions for possible answers:
a) The damage is to such a scale and such a vast surface area her magic literally cannot pull it off. Like her restorative magic has a limited range
b) It is somewhat redundant to try restoring everything when Sailor Chaos is undefeatable. You restore everything and Chaos kills them all again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[kasumigenx]

But if Sailor Cosmos is NQS, why didn't she revive everyone in the end? NQS did it after Death Phantom was defeated, and even Usagi did so when Saturn took Pharaoh 90 away. Why the sadness??? She is the goddess, the super powerful queen turned into a more powerful Senshi.

I don't understand anything.............................................................................................................. How would you explain this?

I do not know. But, by the same token, why couldn't Sailor Cosmos just restore everything the way she did as Chibi Chibi when Galaxia attacked Juban? Chibi Chibi is Sailor Cosmos with depleted energy so you would think at full strength she could do it.

My suggestions for possible answers:
a) The damage is to such a scale and such a vast surface area her magic literally cannot pull it off. Like her restorative magic has a limited range
b) It is somewhat redundant to try restoring everything when Sailor Chaos is undefeatable. You restore everything and Chaos kills them all again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I think the answer would be letter B, why won't Cosmos change the past so that Usagi does not have to jump to the Cauldron in that case though, so she won't suffer being targeted by Chaos anymore.

 

[Wild Rose Rebellion]

I didn't go on a tangent, the thing is that it's a common complaint that Stars had the same structure as the other seasons, it stuck to the same MotW format and therefore it feels as more of the same rather than a grand finale.

By same structure I wouldn't mean MotW. What I mean is that Sailor Stars is the last season but a lot of the Galactica part doesn't feel like the last season because other than the villain being a Sailor, it attempts to make little difference in victims, setting or stakes compared to S or SuperS. The last stretch of episodes step up and build the story up for a grand finale, but it's a grand finale to its own plot, with almost no story links to the plots of previous seasons.

The anime could have had MotW with increased dangers and stakes, a change of setting, include things from previous arcs, anything to make Sailor Stars stand out as a last season, but they chose to make it self-contained, and that's fine. In contrast, the manga shakes up the formula from its first act by killing off Mamoru, then killing off the senshi and leaving Earth, and does so while including many plot elements from previous arcs, so when the finale arrives it feels like it's ending the entire series and not just its own arc.

I thought what I'm saying was clear but it feels like everyone is misinterpreting it as if I'm attacking MotW or dissing on Usagi's Love when I'm not.

it becomes one more element in a disjointed parade of ideas that are never explored. If this makes you feel like a more fitting finale, that's great. But the way I see it, it's clinging to crumbles, overrating and overblowing throwaway elements. One more time, if it works for you (and apparently it works for a considerable part of the fandom), great.

Parade of underexplored ideas is actually a fair way of describing a lot of the manga, but their worth depends on how you choose to take them. You don't think it's worth it to engage with things that weren't developed and that is fine, but I'm replying to you because you asked why people enjoy it and I'm telling you why, it's because for a considerable part of the fandom, it's fun to have those ideas and think about how they fit and how they'd be if you would explore them further. It's the same reason Osabu gave in the interview I quoted that you dismissed earlier in the thread, so at this point, it's like you just don't want to understand why someone would enjoy something you do not.

However, while I can say something is not my cup of tea while recognising it has a lot of merit, it's hard to see manga Stars as anything but a messy patchwork of shock value and platitudes.

Messy or not, manga Stars' shock value and platitudes are built from elements from the previous arcs. The 90s anime largely discarded or downplayed them, and that's the difference. You don't need to see the merit in that, just to acknowledge that it is a difference that exists and that others might like.

And yet moving into deep space makes no difference whatsoever, Galaxia's base might as well have been on a mountain in Tibet of an underground military facility in Arizona.

Moving into deep space gives the story a difference sense of scale that you wouldn't get in Tibet or Arizona, and the cauldron element wouldn't make much sense there. It's fine if the setting did nothing for you, but goalposts don't move because of your personal likes.

That's very interesting! Where can I find data?

I'd like to know too, because it's hard to find that data from 90s manga in general.

The notion that the season wasn't a grand finale is...I'm sorry, I have to question what people were watching if they feel that way. It was 100% a grand finale in so many ways.

Sailor Stars was a grand finale to its own plot. You're arguing about how its themes conclude character arcs for the overall show and how its structure responds to meta goals and I agree with that, but in regards to plot, the only previous thing it connects to is Nehelenia, and even that is downplayed.

 

[Starlight]

at least tying the previous seasons to Shadow Galactica like the manga did.

The scene where Galaxia asks about what happened to Chaos and Usagi replying it went back to where it belongs, back to people's hearts achieved exactly that. It suggested that Chaos resides within everyone and therefore all the villains they had encountered were another manifestation of it. It was just more nuanced and classy than the ham-fisted way the manga attempted at a connection.

 

[Wild Rose Rebellion]

This scene where Galaxia asks about what happened to Chaos and Usagi replying it went back to where it belongs, back to people's hearts achieved exactly that. It suggested that Chaos resides within everyone and therefore all the villains they had encountered were another manifestation of Chaos. It was just more nuanced and classy than the ham-fisted way the manga attempted at a connection.

So when the manga shows direct connections and flashbacks to previous arcs it's a ham-fisted throwaway attempt that shouldn't count, but when the 90s anime has lines that don't refer to any past season it's actually a classy and nuanced reference we're meant to infer even if it doesn't make sense since anime Metalia and Pharaoh 90 weren't ever people with hearts? Boy, I wonder if this double-standard has anything to do with personal preferences of adaptation.

 

[Al Evans]

[QUOTE="Wild Rose Rebellion, post: 1029533, member: 25046"


Sailor Stars was a grand finale to its own plot. You're arguing about how its themes conclude character arcs for the overall show and how its structure responds to meta goals and I agree with that, but in regards to plot, the only previous thing it connects to is Nehelenia, and even that is downplayed.[/QUOTE]

No I'm talking about it as a grand finale for the whole 200 episodes as well as its own plot.

So, for starters let us not sit here and pretend prior seasons had deepset connections with what came before that they played upon routinely. Continuity was never Sailor Moon's forte, indeed it has never been the forte of any given Super Sentai season I have seen. They are selective with what continuity they decide matters and when and always have been. For better or worse, that is a feature as opposed to a bug of both Sailor Moon and its tokusatsu inspirations. Otherwise we would be left to wonder why the girls do nt have hardcore PTSD given that they have died ore than once.

In fact, being selective with the existence of prior seasons is fundamental to Sailor Moon S, the oft touted best season of the show, and te characterisations of Uranus and Neptune, the fan favourites from that season. If we were to sit here and rake Stars over the coals for neglecting to acknowledge prior seasons, then Sailor Moon S automatically becomes by far the worst season of the entire franchise.

- Why are Uranus and Neptune not acknowledging that Usagi is their Princess/future Queen?

- Why do they have no faith in her and the Silver Crystal when the fact they ever got reincarnated is proof of its messianic power

- Why is the show pretending Pharaoh 90 is the most powerful villain they have ever faced when the anime's power scaling has made it clear to us that the Princess forms are more magically powerful than the regular Senshi forms and Neo-Queen Serenity specifically is THE most powerful form of Usagi (an inversion of the Manga where she is weaker). In the R finale Death Phantom required Usagi to become NQS, Chibi-Usa to upgrade to her princess form, get back up energy from the Inners and use TWO Silver Crystals to defeat him, but because of an off-hand line by Sailor Pluto (who wasn't even present at the end of R) we are supposed to buy that Pharaoh 90 is somehow worse?

-Why are Uranus and neptune dismissive and jerkoffs to the Inner Senshi considering the Inners are objectively more battle experienced than they are, having saved the world THREE times before S (four if you count the movie)

-Why is the show even trying to run this 'ideological debate' concept throughout the S season wherein we have to wait and see if Usagi's idealistic faith in finding 'another way' is right or if Haruka's more realistic pragmatism is the right way, with Hotaru future being the personification of their struggle? If we have seen seasons 1-2 we KNOW Usagi is correct. We KNOW she can in fact reliably generate magical miracles with the Silver Crystal. It is literally building a story arc around whether Jesus's way of doing things are going to work when you have ALREADY seen him do miracles. At that point it isn't even blind faith, faith in miracles is just the established magic system of the narrative.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that you know what Sailor Stars AND Sailor Moon S both suck for inadequately acknowledging the prior seasons. Even then I'd disagree.

The heart of Sailor Moon, in all iterations, is, unsurprisingly, Sailor Moon herself. Usagi. As I have said this is why SuperS I think irked so many people. She was second fiddle in her own show.

When it comes to Usagi herself, Stars Usagi is frankly her most outstanding season when taken as a whole. She is honestly the sum of her experiences in so many ways with character growth both overt (Luna literally telling us she has changed in the 7th episode of the season) and subtle. And it is these subtlties that really shine in my view.

Seiya raises the idea that Mamoru is toying with Usagi's feelings. Usagi matter of factly says he wouldn't do that. In my opinion you could easily argue this as growth from both the break up arc and every instance of sitcom jealousy Usagi had in prior seasons.

Seiya is going to spend the night at her home. Usagi, who loves to nap, loves to slack off, is a crybaby oft-times...takes the initiative to clean the house up and, in her modest way, try to be a good hostess. When Luna sternly tells her to pay attention for life advice about men, Usagi sits up to pay attention. Luna isn't threatening her into listening and she isn't being distracted or sleeping. She has matured and knows Luna is a legitimate source of knowledge worth listening to, and not just for Sailor Business.

Usagi discovers another bun-headed child who has hypnotised her family. Usagi's treatment and relationship with her is night and day compared to Chibi-Usa and she actively invites her to sleep in her bed. Chibi-Usa snuck in and Usagi didn't like that. She also runs after and is generally a responsible elder sister to her. She has matured from her time with Chibi-Usa. Indeed, likely because of her time with Chibi-Usa.

Usagi's growth is not confined just to regular life maturity though. Arguably she is more proactive as a Senshi during battle and in terms of building bridges. Even if you do not think so, she definitely mastered her Eternal Sailor Moon powers quickly and was very proactive in trying to rescue Mamoru. Is this a meta reflection from the end of Season 1? Perhaps, but I do not regard 'character is in similar situation to something from before and is now better at handling it' as meta. Usagi was so bad ass in how she went after Mamoru the Sailor Star Song is somewhat written specifically about that aspect of the first 6 episodes.

More than anything else though, her role as a healer illustrates her growth in this season.

Healing magic is special in the context of Sailor Moon. Most magic users can't do it and even the few that do can either only do it to some degree to do a darkside version of it, see Evil Endymion. The power to heal and restore and redeem is something consistently framed as special and more to the point associated with the head royals of a solar system. Queen Serenity, Usagi, Princess Kakuyuu. The Starlights are outright surprised when Eternal Sailor Moon heals a Phage because from their POV that was never an option because they lost their own Princess.

In SuperS, Usagi to my recollection, never uses healing magic. I don't recall if anyone does to be honest, except in the sense of getting rid of the evil magic hurting someone. IIRC, even the Quartet rather than get magically redeemed just change their minds and walk away.

In S Usagi does invoke potent restorative magic when she saves Hotaru and arguably saved Uranus and Neptune mid-season, although you could say that was just a bi-product of her getting the Holy Grail.

In R she heals the Spectre Sisters, Black Lady and in a flashback we see NQS heal the Earth entire, which in turn forges Crystal Tokyo, arguably the singular most high-end healing/creation magic feat of the anime.

In Classic, obviously, she was using Moon Healing Escalation for half a season and then resurrected herself, Mamoru and the Inners.

In contrast to all of that Sailor Stars is the ONLY season wherein Usagi is consistently using Healing magic all the time. That is no accident.

The season practically begins with a vision of NQS becoming Eternal Sailor Moon and in those first 6 episodes we have at least 2 other parallel drawn directly between the Usagi of the 20th century and NQS. Once in the vision of her and King Endymion and another when Chibi-Usa specifically refers to Usagi as her mother. The latter was in the same scene where Usagi rebuilds Nehalennia's entire kingdom including all her dead subjects and reverts Nehelenia to a child.

The message of those first 6 episodes is clear. we are now watching Usagi evolve closer to who we know she will become, the QUEEN of the Earth, the great healer who will forge a fairy tale utopia. Hell, a rejected character design for Stars (suggested as a substitute for Eternal Sailor Moon) was specifically intended to include features reminiscent of Neo-Queen Serenity. This idea that Usagi is evolving into her adult self was foundational in this season.

Not only is this emphasised by her constant use of healing techniques in the season, but obviously by what she does at the end. She temporarily takes up a sword, an explicitly destructive weapon (and one Haruka tried and failed to use against Galaxia no less) and in doing so makes things worse. Her using that sword ushers in Chaos Galaxia.

By contrast, when Usagi literally strips herself naked with nothing but her Silver Crystal, ostensibly her heart on full display, she succeeds. She is at her most powerful. She saves Galaxia, she saves the entire galaxy. She defeats Chaos in a mature way, which is by NOT seeking to destroy it but acknowledging it is part of life. She went 1 v1 with a powered up version of the already most powerful Senshi in the galaxy and WON.

The audience are left in absolute conviction that Usagi could forge Crystal Tokyo tomorrow because her wielding of healing magic just did the most OP thing ever. She doesn't need to mature anymore, she is already there, she is already ready to assume the throne (not that she wants to).

This isn't even getting into how the Star Seed of the most powerful Senshi apparently had the same 'feeling' (and sort of appearance) as Usagi, subtly conveying to us that Usagi is on Galaxia's level as a Senshi. So, we have gone from a girl who is a crybaby screw up and the least competent member of her team (until Chibi-Usa joins) to the girl who is subtly communicated to be in fact the GREATEST Sailor Senshi ever.

Now, if you want to talk about the other characters from prior seasons who didn't get enough pay off to all they had been through, I hear you. However, again, the anime was never good about that sort of thing. The ultimate proof of this is the Outers absence from SuperS and Saturn's absence from the already non-canonical SuperS movie which still bothered to include the other Outers.

The plot really centred around Usagi in Stars and it did that in prior seasons as well. Hell, through his absence, even the Miracle Romance was more relevant than it had been since season 2 as Usagi dwelt upon Mamoru and was tempted by Seiya.

*I will say I don't think 'its meta' is automatically a mark against the worth of a story.

 

[Wild Rose Rebellion]

So, for starters let us not sit here and pretend prior seasons had deepset connections with what came before that they played upon routinely. Continuity was never Sailor Moon's forte, indeed it has never been the forte of any given Super Sentai season I have seen. They are selective with what continuity they decide matters and when and always have been. For better or worse, that is a feature as opposed to a bug of both Sailor Moon and its tokusatsu inspirations.

You're right and that's most likely why Sailor Stars had a mostly self-contained plot, but the point is that it is a mostly self-contained plot, and there's nothing wrong with that, it just means that it will naturally lead to a finale that will mostly conclude its own plot. The manga isn't the best at continuity either but except for Black Moon, every arc ending leads to or hints at the next, and the final arc attempts to increase the continuity callbacks, so its ending will naturally harken back to the entire series' plot.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that you know what Sailor Stars AND Sailor Moon S both suck for inadequately acknowledging the prior seasons. Even then I'd disagree.

Your entire post assumes that stating that something is self-contained means that that something is flawed or lesser, and I'm not saying that. A self-contained plot is just different than that a plot that makes attempts to maintain continuity with previous arcs, and it's up to personal taste to prefer one or the other, and it feels like it's the fifth time I've said that.

The heart of Sailor Moon, in all iterations, is, unsurprisingly, Sailor Moon herself. Usagi.

What follows after this is an analysis of the character arcs and themes, and once again I agree with most of what you're saying, but none of it shows a plot or storyline connection to previous seasons and that's what makes its finale different than the manga. Other than the characters coming from previous seasons and the link to Nehelenia that Sailor Stars downplays compared to the manga, the season is self-contained because it was meant to be self-contained.

*I will say I don't think 'its meta' is automatically a mark against the worth of a story.

It isn't and I've never implied it is something against a story's worth, I just mentioned it because you did.

 

[Al Evans]

I'd also add that the villains being Senshi is highly relevent to the narrative of the Stars season. Yes, on a meta level it rampts up the stakes as the fact is audiences just always respond to 'the heroes but evil' as a trope. Venom is the most famous and popular Spider-Man villain for a reason. Shadow is very popular to Sonic fans. Goku Black is regarded as a high point of Dragon Ball Super. I don't think it is a legitimate criticism to say 'but functionally it makes no difference' when in function it would because audiences are inherently going to be inclined to check that out for its concept alone.

But, if we strictly go by execution and purely practicalities, it 100% matters.

1) Because the Sailor Senshi are coded as good guys and therefore ALL of the villains are in fact corrupted people in need of being healed (no one in the season is pure evil), thereby furthering Usagi's development as a Healer Goddess.

2) It raises the possibility, which is fulfilled with Uranus and Neptune, that our heroes may come under Galaxia's control too. So we are waiting for that to potentially happen

3) Because we know the Sailor Senshi are powerful since we have watched them for 200 episodes, it automatically builds up Galaxia. This is a villain our heroes are not going to defeat merely by virtue of being special warriors chosen by destiny to defend the Earth because our villains are literally cut from the same cloth. In the main villain's case it is a bigger deal because she is explictely supposed to be THE most powerful Senshi out there, so no matter what our heroes can or have done, she can out do them. Her name alone conveys this. You are Senshi powered by a planet I am powered by a whole Galaxy.

4) It organically justifies the inclusion of the Starlights, because otherwise it would just be a big coincidence that there are other Senshi out there and they happen to come to Earth and meet our heroes. This happens specifically because our heroes ARE the targets. They are being targeted BECAUSE they are Senshi

5) It serves Usagi's character arc because she emerges as unquestionably the best and greatest Sailor Senshi of the whole universe because she fought and defeated the supposedly top dog Senshi of the universe and the ultimate source of evil the Senshi exist to combat in the first place.

 

[julayla]

I do not know. But, by the same token, why couldn't Sailor Cosmos just restore everything the way she did as Chibi Chibi when Galaxia attacked Juban? Chibi Chibi is Sailor Cosmos with depleted energy so you would think at full strength she could do it.

My suggestions for possible answers:
a) The damage is to such a scale and such a vast surface area her magic literally cannot pull it off. Like her restorative magic has a limited range
b) It is somewhat redundant to try restoring everything when Sailor Chaos is undefeatable. You restore everything and Chaos kills them all again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

That and c) She was in grief and she probably didn't think about that.

 

[Al Evans]

You're right and that's most likely why Sailor Stars had a mostly self-contained plot, but the point is that it is a mostly self-contained plot, and there's nothing wrong with that, it just means that it will naturally lead to a finale that will mostly conclude its own plot. The manga isn't the best at continuity either but except for Black Moon, every arc ending leads to or hints at the next, and the final arc attempts to increase the continuity callbacks, so its ending will naturally harken back to the entire series' plot.


Your entire post assumes that stating that something is self-contained means that that something is flawed or lesser, and I'm not saying that. A self-contained plot is just different than that a plot that makes attempts to maintain continuity with previous arcs, and it's up to personal taste to prefer one or the other, and it feels like it's the fifth time I've said that.


What follows after this is an analysis of the character arcs and themes, and once again I agree with most of what you're saying, but none of it shows a plot or storyline connection to previous seasons. Other than the characters coming from previous seasons and the link to Nehelenia that Sailor Stars downplays compared to the manga, the season is self-contained because it was meant to be self-contained.


It isn't and I've never implied it is something against a story's worth, I just mentioned it because you did.

But it didn't JUST have a self-contained plot as I laid out. The narrative pays off Usagi's growth. The manga Stars arc, if we are being honest, also has a mostly self-contained plot until the very tail end when it refers back to prior arcs. And even then a slight re-write and you could have ommitted those. The history in both cases happened and is therefore relevent, it need not be thrust into the forefront. The most relevent thing in both versions is Usagi's growth and her relationships with her loved ones, which were forged over the course of the 5 arcs in both versions.

A very good example of this would be modern (well 2005) Doctor Who. When the show revived classic villains it gave scant details about past encounters, but it was enough for us to know the Doctor had encountered these villains before and they have major history. It wasn't necesarry to thrust several details from those old stories to the forefront provided the consequences and weight of those encoutneres was reflected.

However, as I've said Sailor Stars on a meta level harkens back to the past as well. I don't think that is irrelevant because meta stuff is typically caught by the already invested fans, which 5 years in everyone who was still watching in 1996 was that. The arc was not trying to get new people but win back old ones so I don't think it is fair to dismiss or mark down Stars for it's connections to the past being mostly meta.

I think we might be using plot and storyline in diffeent ways and thereby talking past one another. To me a storyline is everything that happens, which inherently includes character development. Therefore, Usagi's arc in the season and how it pays of the earlier seasons is part of the storyline.

 

[Wild Rose Rebellion]

I think we might be using plot and storyline in diffeent ways and thereby talking past one another. To me a storyline is everything that happens, which inherently includes character development. Therefore, Usagi's arc in the season and how it pays of the earlier seasons is part of the storyline.

I think that's it. I agree that character development is part of the storyline, but Sailor Stars' plot is designed to work without the viewer knowing about Usagi's past development, the story doesn't require you to be aware of it because while it develops it in its theme, the plot is self-contained. On the other hand, manga Stars needs the previous stories to make sense and resorts to including flashbacks to them to keep readers up.

 

[Late to the Game]

Parade of underexplored ideas is actually a fair way of describing a lot of the manga, but their worth depends on how you choose to take them. You don't think it's worth it to engage with things that weren't developed and that is fine, but I'm replying to you because you asked why people enjoy it and I'm telling you why, it's because for a considerable part of the fandom, it's fun to have those ideas and think about how they fit and how they'd be if you would explore them further. It's the same reason Osabu gave in the interview I quoted that you dismissed earlier in the thread, so at this point, it's like you just don't want to understand why someone would enjoy something you do not.

I find it hard to come to terms with what Osabu said, no only because I think it's disingenuous, but also because I don't think it rings true at all. Sure, as you said, for lots of people it's fun to speculate, but the way he put it it's like Sailor Moon owes at least part of its popularity to its many moot points and plot holes. And it's no like the other arcs (in the manga and in the anime) don't have their fair share of unexplained and unexplored ideas, but from what I gather being on and off the fandom over the years, Stars is held on a different level. You could arguably put it down to all the "new ideas, throwbacks and difference in scales" of manga Stars, more on that following.

Moving into deep space gives the story a difference sense of scale that you wouldn't get in Tibet or Arizona, and the cauldron element wouldn't make much sense there. It's fine if the setting did nothing for you, but goalposts don't move because of your personal likes.

Except it doesn't, at least not automatically. It's not rocket science. You could write a story that takes place in space or across multiple dimensions and still have a limited, mundane scope (both in a good or bad way). It's never so much the setting as what happens in the setting. I don't wanna go all academic, quote Umberto Eco, bring in Greek tragedy or anything, but it's not rocket science. Please take no offence (I appreciate your being polite and respectful), but implying a change of setting automatically entails a difference sense of scale is a very superficial way of reading things, like being enticed by frills and trinkets and not noticing what's behind all the garnish. Of course, one's way of reading and one's taste are two different and largely independent things, and I'm not judging anyone's taste (regardless of what might cone across). I think I wasn't clear, I don't think you can really explain rationally why you like this or that. What makes me bemused is how on Earth so many fans seem to have bought the discourse of manga Stars (and, to a certain extent, Dream) being a such an outstanding, daring and tightly-knit narrative that the 90s anime could not hold a candle to. In other words, what I'm questioning here is the way the form, cohesion and structure of said works (Stars and Cosmos) is viewed. That also seems to be the direction @Al Evans goes through, more like a formal analysis rather than just stating likes and dislikes like so many people do (not saying that YOU are doing it, though).

I'd like to know too, because it's hard to find that data from 90s manga in general.

Summoning @Lady Pen who posted it in the first place, then!

I think that's it. I agree that character development is part of the storyline, but Sailor Stars' plot is designed to work without the viewer knowing about Usagi's past development, the story doesn't require you to be aware of it because while it develops it in its theme, the plot is self-contained. On the other hand, manga Stars needs the previous stories to make sense and resorts to including flashbacks to them to keep readers up.

The way you say it, it sound as if manga Stars is just full of flashbacks and mentions of past events, but it's not. There are, what, two or three pages of flashbacks and that's about it.

And, by the way, @Al Evans ...

The heart of Sailor Moon, in all iterations, is, unsurprisingly, Sailor Moon herself. Usagi. As I have said this is why SuperS I think irked so many people. She was second fiddle in her own show.



When it comes to Usagi herself, Stars Usagi is frankly her most outstanding season when taken as a whole. She is honestly the sum of her experiences in so many ways with character growth both overt (Luna literally telling us she has changed in the 7th episode of the season) and subtle. And it is these subtlties that really shine in my view.



Seiya raises the idea that Mamoru is toying with Usagi's feelings. Usagi matter of factly says he wouldn't do that. In my opinion you could easily argue this as growth from both the break up arc and every instance of sitcom jealousy Usagi had in prior seasons.



Seiya is going to spend the night at her home. Usagi, who loves to nap, loves to slack off, is a crybaby oft-times...takes the initiative to clean the house up and, in her modest way, try to be a good hostess. When Luna sternly tells her to pay attention for life advice about men, Usagi sits up to pay attention. Luna isn't threatening her into listening and she isn't being distracted or sleeping. She has matured and knows Luna is a legitimate source of knowledge worth listening to, and not just for Sailor Business.



Usagi discovers another bun-headed child who has hypnotised her family. Usagi's treatment and relationship with her is night and day compared to Chibi-Usa and she actively invites her to sleep in her bed. Chibi-Usa snuck in and Usagi didn't like that. She also runs after and is generally a responsible elder sister to her. She has matured from her time with Chibi-Usa. Indeed, likely because of her time with Chibi-Usa.



Usagi's growth is not confined just to regular life maturity though. Arguably she is more proactive as a Senshi during battle and in terms of building bridges. Even if you do not think so, she definitely mastered her Eternal Sailor Moon powers quickly and was very proactive in trying to rescue Mamoru. Is this a meta reflection from the end of Season 1? Perhaps, but I do not regard 'character is in similar situation to something from before and is now better at handling it' as meta. Usagi was so bad ass in how she went after Mamoru the Sailor Star Song is somewhat written specifically about that aspect of the first 6 episodes.



More than anything else though, her role as a healer illustrates her growth in this season.



Healing magic is special in the context of Sailor Moon. Most magic users can't do it and even the few that do can either only do it to some degree to do a darkside version of it, see Evil Endymion. The power to heal and restore and redeem is something consistently framed as special and more to the point associated with the head royals of a solar system. Queen Serenity, Usagi, Princess Kakuyuu. The Starlights are outright surprised when Eternal Sailor Moon heals a Phage because from their POV that was never an option because they lost their own Princess.



In SuperS, Usagi to my recollection, never uses healing magic. I don't recall if anyone does to be honest, except in the sense of getting rid of the evil magic hurting someone. IIRC, even the Quartet rather than get magically redeemed just change their minds and walk away.



In S Usagi does invoke potent restorative magic when she saves Hotaru and arguably saved Uranus and Neptune mid-season, although you could say that was just a bi-product of her getting the Holy Grail.



In R she heals the Spectre Sisters, Black Lady and in a flashback we see NQS heal the Earth entire, which in turn forges Crystal Tokyo, arguably the singular most high-end healing/creation magic feat of the anime.



In Classic, obviously, she was using Moon Healing Escalation for half a season and then resurrected herself, Mamoru and the Inners.



In contrast to all of that Sailor Stars is the ONLY season wherein Usagi is consistently using Healing magic all the time. That is no accident.



The season practically begins with a vision of NQS becoming Eternal Sailor Moon and in those first 6 episodes we have at least 2 other parallel drawn directly between the Usagi of the 20th century and NQS. Once in the vision of her and King Endymion and another when Chibi-Usa specifically refers to Usagi as her mother. The latter was in the same scene where Usagi rebuilds Nehalennia's entire kingdom including all her dead subjects and reverts Nehelenia to a child.



The message of those first 6 episodes is clear. we are now watching Usagi evolve closer to who we know she will become, the QUEEN of the Earth, the great healer who will forge a fairy tale utopia. Hell, a rejected character design for Stars (suggested as a substitute for Eternal Sailor Moon) was specifically intended to include features reminiscent of Neo-Queen Serenity. This idea that Usagi is evolving into her adult self was foundational in this season.



Not only is this emphasised by her constant use of healing techniques in the season, but obviously by what she does at the end. She temporarily takes up a sword, an explicitly destructive weapon (and one Haruka tried and failed to use against Galaxia no less) and in doing so makes things worse. Her using that sword ushers in Chaos Galaxia.



By contrast, when Usagi literally strips herself naked with nothing but her Silver Crystal, ostensibly her heart on full display, she succeeds. She is at her most powerful. She saves Galaxia, she saves the entire galaxy. She defeats Chaos in a mature way, which is by NOT seeking to destroy it but acknowledging it is part of life. She went 1 v1 with a powered up version of the already most powerful Senshi in the galaxy and WON.



The audience are left in absolute conviction that Usagi could forge Crystal Tokyo tomorrow because her wielding of healing magic just did the most OP thing ever. She doesn't need to mature anymore, she is already there, she is already ready to assume the throne (not that she wants to).



This isn't even getting into how the Star Seed of the most powerful Senshi apparently had the same 'feeling' (and sort of appearance) as Usagi, subtly conveying to us that Usagi is on Galaxia's level as a Senshi. So, we have gone from a girl who is a crybaby screw up and the least competent member of her team (until Chibi-Usa joins) to the girl who is subtly communicated to be in fact the GREATEST Sailor Senshi ever.



Now, if you want to talk about the other characters from prior seasons who didn't get enough pay off to all they had been through, I hear you. However, again, the anime was never good about that sort of thing. The ultimate proof of this is the Outers absence from SuperS and Saturn's absence from the already non-canonical SuperS movie which still bothered to include the other Outers.



The plot really centred around Usagi in Stars and it did that in prior seasons as well. Hell, through his absence, even the Miracle Romance was more relevant than it had been since season 2 as Usagi dwelt upon Mamoru an
d was tempted by Seiya.



*I will say I don't think 'its meta' is automatically a mark against the worth of a story.

I'm having your comment printed and nailed to the door of anyone who dares say that anime Usagi doesn't grow and mature, but manga Usagi does.

 

[Lady Pen]

That and c) She was in grief and she probably didn't think about that.

Like in all the arcs of the manga. Usagi is in grief, Mamoru kisses her, she gets wet and uses the Silver Crystal to revive everyone.

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OMG, this thread has become.....

Would you like to be my friend?? I've lost all my supporters.