Is Naoko Takeuchi the Problem?

[saintfighteraqua]

As frustrating as it is to see people blame Sailor Moon for being a "Girl Manga" for it's lack of success lately, I think that does have something to do with it.
I work at a game store where we sell a lot of anime-related merchandise. We get mostly Dragonball, My Hero, Demon Slayer, Naruto, and One Piece. The only female-oriented anime we get any merch for is Sailor Moon, which says something. BUT, men come in and buy almost exclusively the Shonen series and you know what? So do most of the women.
I will say "We just got in some new Sailor Moon merch" and they go "Oh, I love Sailor Moon!" but then buy something MHA related and gush about they just love their Bakugo and then preorder more MHA collectibles, leaving Sailor Moon on the shelves (until I inevitably buy it all).
It's true we do get some Sailor Moon sales that are not me, including from some kids and since the Netflix deal more young kids have recognized it.

And almost every customer regardless of age or gender has said they prefer the 90s anime and they don't like Crystal.

But all in all if women are preferring Shonen over Shojo, what is there to do? Is it any wonder the 90s anime did so well since it had so many Shonen elements and both male and female fans loved it?
There will always be a market for Shojo (thank goodness) but Sailor Moon seems to do better when it leans a little Shonen. I love the flowery girlishness of the series and I don't think it should lose that, but for all the complaints about how far off 90s Usagi and Rei are from their beautiful, perfect manga counterparts, people prefer those versions.
I'm just going to say it. Manga/Crystal Rei is unrelatable, flat and boring. I like her, I think she's amazing, but it's that kind of characterization that makes
Crystal so unpopular with the average anime fans. People say 90s anime Rei is a brat or worse, but at the end of the day, she's more relatable and even more likable. Venus, Jupiter, Mercury...all flat and boring in Crystal, what people remember are their 90's personalities.

 

[TTTD-K]

Maybe they should've shifted fully to appealing to the male demographic, instead.
I remain convinced that they should've embraced the waifu factor and just ran with that. After all, besides GenXer Japanese women, the only other demographic that cares about Sailor Moon are dudes who like the girls, or Black Dog.

But Toei execs first thought that SuperS was a good idea back in '95. Then they thought that making the Star Lights genderbenders was what the male demographic actually wanted (they should've waited a couple of decades for that, they truly were ahead of their time).


And then we got Crystal lol

 

[kasumigenx]

Maybe they should've shifted fully to appealing to the male demographic, instead.
I remain convinced that they should've embraced the waifu factor and just ran with that. After all, besides GenXer Japanese women, the only other demographic that cares about Sailor Moon are dudes who like the girls, or Black Dog.

But Toei execs first thought that SuperS was a good idea back in '95. Then they thought that making the Star Lights genderbenders was what the male demographic actually wanted (they should've waited a couple of decades for that, they truly were ahead of their time).


And then we got Crystal lol

The gender bender starlights are what the female demographic wanted due to yaoi and bishounen.

CLAMP does not really make attempts to market MKR and CCS to a new female demographic besides the fact that CCS has Clear Card, mind you there were ads of MKR's rerelease in Tsubasa RC volumes.

 

[TTTD-K]

The gender bender starlights are what the female demographic wanted due to yaoi and bishounen.

Man, I really need to update my information, because all the [BLEEP] I parrot here is stuff I heard 15 years ago.

 

[saintfighteraqua]

Maybe they should've shifted fully to appealing to the male demographic, instead.
I remain convinced that they should've embraced the waifu factor and just ran with that. After all, besides GenXer Japanese women, the only other demographic that cares about Sailor Moon are dudes who like the girls, or Black Dog.

But Toei execs first thought that SuperS was a good idea back in '95. Then they thought that making the Star Lights genderbenders was what the male demographic actually wanted (they should've waited a couple of decades for that, they truly were ahead of their time).


And then we got Crystal lol

I don't think they should have focused solely on men, I just think a lot of what they did through the first three seasons really appealed to men and women both. They should have refined that. Instead they doubled down on repetitive MOD episodes with one-shot characters we never saw again and dropped all the side characters we did care about.
SuperS and Stars are both equally awful in a lot of ways. I can still find a lot to like in both, but what I dislike makes me dread rewatches each time. That's not me saying the first three seasons didn't have problems, they definitely do...but it's like they took the worst parts of the first three seasons and dropped the good parts when they made SuperS and Stars.

As for the manga, as much as I enjoy the Dream Arc and Stars, I've accepted they are still not the best written. Dream feels like it's all fan service at times and has some weird concepts that go nowhere and Stars isn't really a satisfactory ending. If Naoko isn't to blame for that, I don't know who is.
I love her work but every time I reread it I notice more and more how she has very little sense of pacing. If it was Toei and Bandai rushing her on that, I really wished they'd have backed off and just did more filler seasons like Ail and En and let her flesh out an arc before they butchered it further.

 

[B sizzle]

As frustrating as it is to see people blame Sailor Moon for being a "Girl Manga" for it's lack of success lately, I think that does have something to do with it.
I work at a game store where we sell a lot of anime-related merchandise. We get mostly Dragonball, My Hero, Demon Slayer, Naruto, and One Piece. The only female-oriented anime we get any merch for is Sailor Moon, which says something. BUT, men come in and buy almost exclusively the Shonen series and you know what? So do most of the women.
I will say "We just got in some new Sailor Moon merch" and they go "Oh, I love Sailor Moon!" but then buy something MHA related and gush about they just love their Bakugo and then preorder more MHA collectibles, leaving Sailor Moon on the shelves (until I inevitably buy it all).
It's true we do get some Sailor Moon sales that are not me, including from some kids and since the Netflix deal more young kids have recognized it.

And almost every customer regardless of age or gender has said they prefer the 90s anime and they don't like Crystal.

But all in all if women are preferring Shonen over Shojo, what is there to do? Is it any wonder the 90s anime did so well since it had so many Shonen elements and both male and female fans loved it?
There will always be a market for Shojo (thank goodness) but Sailor Moon seems to do better when it leans a little Shonen. I love the flowery girlishness of the series and I don't think it should lose that, but for all the complaints about how far off 90s Usagi and Rei are from their beautiful, perfect manga counterparts, people prefer those versions.
I'm just going to say it. Manga/Crystal Rei is unrelatable, flat and boring. I like her, I think she's amazing, but it's that kind of characterization that makes
Crystal so unpopular with the average anime fans. People say 90s anime Rei is a brat or worse, but at the end of the day, she's more relatable and even more likable. Venus, Jupiter, Mercury...all flat and boring in Crystal, what people remember are their 90's personalities.

You make a good point. From what I have seen most people prefer 90’s mercury, Jupiter, Mars, and Moon way better. It is mixed on usagi and minako, some people prefer usagi not maturing in the 90’s, while they like how she matures in the manga. It seems split right down between 90’s and manga Venus.

It seems most people prefer the 90’s anime when it comes to the first four arcs to the manga’s first three. Also most like the first story of sailor stars to the first half of the stars arc where they offed the sailor guardians the way they do, despite their resurrection later on.

The ones where the manga is preferable to most people is the dream and second half of stars.

Also it seems most vastly prefer manga Pluto and mamarou to their anime counterparts.

Overall the 90’s anime just appeals more to people. Also having people like Ail and En, Fiore, helps quite a bit.

 

[Neo Queen Serenity]

When I think of Sailor Moon I immediately think of the 90s anime. It makes me laugh, cry, smile and go awww at the TV, and sometimes it just makes me yell at TV too. Crystal doesn’t make me feel that way at all, I like it but comparing it to the 90s anime it doesn’t give me all of the feels that the 90s anime does. I don’t hate Crystal but it just doesn’t give me an emotional response like the 90s anime does. Though when I watched PGSM for the first time I remember getting emotionally invested. And when I watched the original English dub too for the first time I got emotionally invested too.

 

[saintfighteraqua]

You make a good point. From what I have seen most people prefer 90’s mercury, Jupiter, Mars, and Moon way better. It is mixed on usagi and minako, some people prefer usagi not maturing in the 90’s, while they like how she matures in the manga. It seems split right down between 90’s and manga Venus.

It seems most people prefer the 90’s anime when it comes to the first four arcs to the manga’s first three. Also most like the first story of sailor stars to the first half of the stars arc where they offed the sailor guardians the way they do, despite their resurrection later on.

The ones where the manga is preferable to most people is the dream and second half of stars.

Also it seems most vastly prefer manga Pluto and mamarou to their anime counterparts.

Overall the 90’s anime just appeals more to people. Also having people like Ail and En, Fiore, helps quite a bit.

Yeah, me personally, I like the characters in all their iterations, in spite of how mean I might come off to the manga versions.
But I think in general how you summed it up is right, especially regarding Mamoru and Setsuna.

Manga Venus benefits from having an entire 15-16 chapters devoted to just her outside the manga and a mostly strong presence in each arc. The other three girls are basically broken down to the smart one, the pretty one and the tough but girly one.
Minako is basically "better Usagi" in a lot of ways, lol.

And that's where I have to think Naoko isn't the whole problem. While Codename: Sailor V isn't the best thing ever, it does show that Naoko can characterize her heroines if she has room to breathe.
her villains are still mostly one-note and flat, save for one in that series. Naoko is smart and she knows how to tie things together IF she has time and I have to think only if she is enjoying herself. She seemed to be having fun with Sailor V both to it's benefit and detriment....

Side rant connected to my last post:
The anime Rei and Usagi dynamic might annoy some people but it is so important. They argue and fight but at the end of the day they are probably one of the strongest relationships of any kind in the series.
I don't think they are lovers or anything, but they do have a powerful connection and attraction to one another.
Rei's last words to Usagi in Stars (not counting the quick little line when she revives) is so touching. I've seen it translated several ways but the gist of it:
Rei "You're too soft, you need to stay strong."
Usagi: "Don't leave me, we promised we'd be together until the end. Don't leave me alone!"
(One could argue it is all of the girls she's saying this to.)
It's also Rei who takes the bullet for Usagi in that scene and its Rei that Usagi grabs hold of and Rei who holds on the longest for her (which could be from Usagi's power herself)
Manga Rei is just part of the hive mind that is the inners and doesn't share any special bonds individually besides a throwaway scene with Minako and a side story also with Minako.

 

[Neo Queen Serenity]

Side rant connected to my last post:
The anime Rei and Usagi dynamic might annoy some people but it is so important. They argue and fight but at the end of the day they are probably one of the strongest relationships of any kind in the series.
I don't think they are lovers or anything, but they do have a powerful connection and attraction to one another.
Rei's last words to Usagi in Stars (not counting the quick little line when she revives) is so touching. I've seen it translated several ways but the gist of it:
Rei "You're too soft, you need to stay strong."
Usagi: "Don't leave me, we promised we'd be together until the end. Don't leave me alone!"
(One could argue it is all of the girls she's saying this to.)
It's also Rei who takes the bullet for Usagi in that scene and its Rei that Usagi grabs hold of and Rei who holds on the longest for her (which could be from Usagi's power herself)
Manga Rei is just part of the hive mind that is the inners and doesn't share any special bonds individually besides a throwaway scene with Minako and a side story also with Minako.

Also, if you watch the subbed version of the 90s anime you can tell that Usagi and Rei are close because Rei doesn’t use honorifics with Usagi and refers to her as Usagi which if I remember correctly is something that Japanese people only do if they’re really close to someone.

 

[~kawaii~]

I am similar to umino do believe the real problem is the problem is more Toei than Takeuchi.

 

[kasumigenx]

Side rant connected to my last post:
The anime Rei and Usagi dynamic might annoy some people but it is so important. They argue and fight but at the end of the day they are probably one of the strongest relationships of any kind in the series.
I don't think they are lovers or anything, but they do have a powerful connection and attraction to one another.
Rei's last words to Usagi in Stars (not counting the quick little line when she revives) is so touching. I've seen it translated several ways but the gist of it:
Rei "You're too soft, you need to stay strong."
Usagi: "Don't leave me, we promised we'd be together until the end. Don't leave me alone!"
(One could argue it is all of the girls she's saying this to.)
It's also Rei who takes the bullet for Usagi in that scene and its Rei that Usagi grabs hold of and Rei who holds on the longest for her (which could be from Usagi's power herself)
Manga Rei is just part of the hive mind that is the inners and doesn't share any special bonds individually besides a throwaway scene with Minako and a side story also with Minako.

The senshi are more of a hive mind in the manga, if that is not a thing the manga will have more volumes.

 

[Lady Pen]

I love her work but every time I reread it I notice more and more how she has very little sense of pacing. If it was Toei and Bandai rushing her on that, I really wished they'd have backed off and just did more filler seasons like Ail and En and let her flesh out an arc before they butchered it further.

Naoko is smart and she knows how to tie things together IF she has time and I have to think only if she is enjoying herself.

Yes, Naoko knew how to develop characters, but the thing is she couldn't/can't deal with a group of characters at the same time. That's why only some had the privilege to have a personality in the manga.

I think all the parts involved in SM (including Naoko) were responsible for the messy pace of the manga. Toei wanted new material, Bandai wanted Naoko and Kodansha to advertise the new merch in each chapter, Naoko was limited to approximately 12 chapters per arc or so, there was no room for a good story in those conditions.
Then we've got Osabu, I think he was... incompetent at some points. For instance, Act 16 Abduction - Sailor Mercury. We have 4 pages (4!!!!) where loads of side characters, most of them can barely be called like that, were discussing with Ami and Makoto the events of Act 15. This went nowhere. It would've been better if Naoko had used those 4 pages to tell us something about Ami. Osabu should've realised about it before sending the manuscript to Kodansha. IIRC, Sakai omitted that sequence for Crystal and gave Ami some introspection.

At the end of the day, the manga feels like a first draft or something like that every fan should have, at least one set.

 

[Star Angel Haruki]

Sailor Moon is more interesting when it combines all the elements it is supposed to. Of course the 90's anime would be best. It's what popularized Sailor Moon internationally. It's the characters everyone loves. It's the version were even the enemies are expanded and not one offs. Manga is pretty okay itself but imo is kinda "shallow". It's mostly just pretty with not too much depth. That's perfectly fine in the static form in a sense but is a sin in anime form for such a scale of a series.

I do kind of see why Sailor Moon had to end. We know all too well what happens when a series gets out of control with too many fingers trying to handle it.

Crystal had good intentions but not lasting personality. The Senshi could fight, felt more powerful but then..... the girl's all seemed like carbon copies with no personality.

I actually think Crystal Venus is better than 90's Venus at times though. I actually like Crystal Usagi better too.

The rest of them, especially Rei, they can keep cause I don't want em. I don't "hate" them but I don't care to see them as often. Lol

 

[kasumigenx]

Yes, Naoko knew how to develop characters, but the thing is she couldn't/can't deal with a group of characters at the same time. That's why only some had the privilege to have a personality in the manga.

I think all the parts involved in SM (including Naoko) were responsible for the messy pace of the manga. Toei wanted new material, Bandai wanted Naoko and Kodansha to advertise the new merch in each chapter, Naoko was limited to approximately 12 chapters per arc or so, there was no room for a good story in those conditions.
Then we've got Osabu, I think he was... incompetent at some points. For instance, Act 16 Abduction - Sailor Mercury. We have 4 pages (4!!!!) where loads of side characters, most of them can barely be called like that, were discussing with Ami and Makoto the events of Act 15. This went nowhere. It would've been better if Naoko had used those 4 pages to tell us something about Ami. Osabu should've realised about it before sending the manuscript to Kodansha. IIRC, Sakai omitted that sequence for Crystal and gave Ami some introspection.

At the end of the day, the manga feels like a first draft or something like that every fan should have, at least one set.

I agree that she was forced to rush the manga.

To be exact the First Three arcs and the Neherenia arc of Stars was adapted from the Manga, Super S, and Stars which were different, the Super S plot was different from the manga due to it removing the Outers since TOEI chose to put them in the 5th Season and Naoko discarded the material where the Sailor Stars anime was based from(something I said in my earlier replies and posts) but the theme of the anime and manga of stars was the same.

 

[saintfighteraqua]

I actually think Crystal Venus is better than 90's Venus at times though. I actually like Crystal Usagi better too.

The rest of them, especially Rei, they can keep cause I don't want em. I don't "hate" them but I don't care to see them as often. Lol

I can see that. Cystal/manga Venus has some good scenes. She still gets some good scenes in the 90s too, I love her quirky, scatterbrained nature and how she frustrates Ami in conversations...but the stronger, leader Venus in the manga is awesome. I will still never forgive Crystal for giving her best kill to Sailor Moon. Absolutely pointless, imo. Usagi gets enough kills, having Venus take out the big bad's top general was so amazing in the manga.

 

[B sizzle]

Yeah, me personally, I like the characters in all their iterations, in spite of how mean I might come off to the manga versions.
But I think in general how you summed it up is right, especially regarding Mamoru and Setsuna.

Manga Venus benefits from having an entire 15-16 chapters devoted to just her outside the manga and a mostly strong presence in each arc. The other three girls are basically broken down to the smart one, the pretty one and the tough but girly one.
Minako is basically "better Usagi" in a lot of ways, lol.

And that's where I have to think Naoko isn't the whole problem. While Codename: Sailor V isn't the best thing ever, it does show that Naoko can characterize her heroines if she has room to breathe.
her villains are still mostly one-note and flat, save for one in that series. Naoko is smart and she knows how to tie things together IF she has time and I have to think only if she is enjoying herself. She seemed to be having fun with Sailor V both to it's benefit and detriment....

Side rant connected to my last post:
The anime Rei and Usagi dynamic might annoy some people but it is so important. They argue and fight but at the end of the day they are probably one of the strongest relationships of any kind in the series.
I don't think they are lovers or anything, but they do have a powerful connection and attraction to one another.
Rei's last words to Usagi in Stars (not counting the quick little line when she revives) is so touching. I've seen it translated several ways but the gist of it:
Rei "You're too soft, you need to stay strong."
Usagi: "Don't leave me, we promised we'd be together until the end. Don't leave me alone!"
(One could argue it is all of the girls she's saying this to.)
It's also Rei who takes the bullet for Usagi in that scene and its Rei that Usagi grabs hold of and Rei who holds on the longest for her (which could be from Usagi's power herself)
Manga Rei is just part of the hive mind that is the inners and doesn't share any special bonds individually besides a throwaway scene with Minako and a side story also with Minako.

I think all of the characters are good in different ways in both adaptations myself. Even Mamarou in the anime is great first and setsuna in the anime is not bad. It seems , mercury, and Jupiter are the same in the manga as the anime personality wise but they get more screen time in the anime. Honestly when I started watching sailor moon and saw Rei in intro prior to her showing up, I thought she would be more like the manga version than the anime version.

Everyone seems to agree setsuna and mamarou are way better in the manga. I love the fact she is in love with mamarou in their past lives. She was just more fleshed out. Seems the outers got a better deal in the manga despite stars but everyone of the main cast got it bad in stars. They got to be in dream. The anime still has done Neptune and Uranus very well, as well as Saturn. I loved the tension between the outers and inners in the anime. I wish Neptune and Uranus had been for real at being pissed with usagi for letting Saturn live in the anime at the end of s and made another storyline, there was so much potential there.

Yeah manga Venus gets a lot of time dedicated to her through codename sailor v. She gets quite a few chapters and it helps her character development quite a bit. Then she gets featured a lot in the manga and it’s storylines, epically killing queen beryl which is massive as she did not make it to the final battle in the anime. Yeah Minako seems to be a more competent usagi, in both the anime and manga. They are so similar and both horn dogs, epically minako in the anime where she two timed tiger’s and hawks eye.

It seems like with mercury, mars and Jupiter they just highlight their characteristics and not much else expect for the dream arc. It feels kind of bland it really does.

I agree with you when it comes to usagi and Rei in the anime. A lot of people may hate when they bicker but I love it and it is entertaining. Like you said it is important they bicker because really it means they are as close as sisters. The anime relationship between usagi and Rei feels like a friendship version of Ranma and akane. I remember when usagi said when Rei got her pure heart stolen and usagi said that rei was her best friend.

To me they have the most powerful connection in the 90’s anime, even more than her and mamarou. It feels genuine while the connection to mamarou feels forced like many on here have. From what I heard Rei in the final arc has some very touching words for usagi as she dies along with the rest of the inners. Her and Usagi clearly have a even closer connection than anyone, even if she has a close relationship with the rest of the inner guardians as well. It makes sense for rei to sacrifice herself for usagi and live the longest of the inner guardians. Like you said she lived the longest of the rest of them in the end of both the dark kingdom and stars. It makes sense she held on as long as she could because of the bond her and usagi share.

Like you said rei is the first to talk when her and the rest of the sailor guardians/mamarou get resurrected in stars and makes sense for her to. She is the closest to usagi so the welcome backs should be started by her. Mercury is probably the second closet to usagi, in fact calls usagi her best friend in the episode where they go to the beach with Shingo.

Yeah manga rei does not share any special bond with usagi or anyone else but like you said Venus in one scene and one story on the side. Venus and mars are really close at the end it seems. However when it comes to usagi all of them seem like loyal servants to their leader more than friends.

 

[kasumigenx]

Yeah manga rei does not share any special bond with usagi or anyone else but like you said Venus in one scene and one story on the side. Venus and mars are really close at the end it seems. However when it comes to usagi all of them seem like loyal servants to their leader more than friends.

Isn't that what happened in rebellion of Madoka prior to Homura absorbing Madoka's powers the rest of Magical Girls became like Madoka's slaves.

 

[B sizzle]

Isn't that what happened in rebellion of Madoka prior to Homura absorbing Madoka's powers the rest of Magical Girls became like Madoka's slaves.

Well what it sounds like happened with madoka absorbing homura’s powers and the girls trying to rebel and become slaves is different than sailor moon to me. The sailor guardians willingly serve usagi and her as usagi and Neo queen Serenity in the future. They feel as a sense of duty to her and mamarou but are not forced into serving them. If they wanted to stop fighting they would be allowed to, honestly I see usagi forcing them to stop fighting for her that way they do not die again like on stars before forcing them to serve her. Plus also they are all friends still so they will never leave her, even in the manga.

 

[Star Angel Haruki]

I can see that. Cystal/manga Venus has some good scenes. She still gets some good scenes in the 90s too, I love her quirky, scatterbrained nature and how she frustrates Ami in conversations...but the stronger, leader Venus in the manga is awesome. I will still never forgive Crystal for giving her best kill to Sailor Moon. Absolutely pointless, imo. Usagi gets enough kills, having Venus take out the big bad's top general was so amazing in the manga.

It was expected because they took Mars' and Jupiter's kills and I was like....why did they do that? What are they planning? I first started noticing issues with Crystal because it seemed like they were taking out all the "shounen" type elements. I was wondering during why they got rid of Sailor Moon kick? I like the scene in 90's where SM beats that dude with the camera youma's a$$ with awesome dodging and a good Sailor Moon kick...proving she was a capable fighter by herself...but that was shortlived..lol

I definitely like the little nods Venus got in Crystal though (90's too). Even when she disguised herself as a boy using her compact from her Sailor v days in the wonky Season 3, to her nicely choreographed transformation from 1 season.

I was stupid enough to believe that at least Mars and Jupiter would be redeemed in Black Moon thinking Toei would change it around and let them take out their respective counterpart instead of Sailor Moon cause they changed the setup in the original with the generals not being killed by them.. but Nope...it would have been nice to see Koan being torched by Burning Mandala and Petz being fried by Sparkling Pressure before getting captured.

 

[saintfighteraqua]

It was expected because they took Mars' and Jupiter's kills and I was like....why did they do that? What are they planning? I first started noticing issues with Crystal because it seemed like they were taking out all the "shounen" type elements. I was wondering during why they got rid of Sailor Moon kick? I like the scene in 90's where SM beats that dude with the camera youma's a$$ with awesome dodging and a good Sailor Moon kick...proving she was a capable fighter by herself...but that was shortlived..lol

I definitely like the little nods Venus got in Crystal though (90's too). Even when she disguised herself as a boy using her compact from her Sailor v days in the wonky Season 3, to her nicely choreographed transformation from 1 season.

I was stupid enough to believe that at least Mars and Jupiter would be redeemed in Black Moon thinking Toei would change it around and let them take out their respective counterpart instead of Sailor Moon cause they changed the setup in the original with the generals not being killed by them.. but Nope...it would have been nice to see Koan being torched by Burning Mandala and Petz being fried by Sparkling Pressure before getting captured.

I agree, each time they let Sailor Moon wipe out someone else's target I was so mad and wondered why needed a reboot if we were just going to see Usagi take out the MODs each episode again.
I would have been on board with extending season one and giving the Shittenou more backstory but I would take their quick manga deaths a million times over to the trash we got in Crystal with the wailing women and pointless backstory we had shoehorned in.