Is the Dream arc overrated?

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Feb 8, 2021
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#44
I tend to think that If Ikuhara did not leave Sailor Moon, we would have Sailor Stars under him, since the issue of the Super S movie was with the Producers of Sailor Moon, not Takeuchi herself, I think Utena being designed by Takeuchi and her doing the Utena manga is also possible, I think she can do better than Chiho Saito on the Utena Manga, I remember reading Ikuhara's comments in the Utena forums that some of the fan artists are better than Chiho Saito.
 
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Jul 17, 2006
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#45
I hated how Luna became Sailor Luna. I thought it was a useless concept. She look cute in concept art. But I totally thought it was unnecessary.
I think it was just a way to appeal to little girls... I love Sailor Luna, she's funny and yeah useless :yay:

If both the Manga and 90s Anime had Galaxia as incarnations of Chaos as Takeuchi's originally planned and likely ending in her being sealed, Galaxia reviving Neherenia in 90s Sailor Stars would have made more sense
:loltext: I think we got it after your 50000 posts about it :loltext:
 
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#47
I hated how Luna became Sailor Luna. I thought it was a useless concept. She look cute in concept art. But I totally thought it was unnecessary.
Nephrite's take was a huge meh since his character was such a success in the old anime.

While if you look at the material book, he was set like that.
 
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#48
Nephrite's take was a huge meh since his character was such a success in the old anime.

While if you look at the material book, he was set like that.
What sad about Nephrite is that he didn't get in PGSM a conclusion to his story... Which is quite sad because every other ones got one, Jadeite offering his eternal love to Bery, Kunzite dying protecting his master, Zoizite by protecting the princess. With Nephrite it seems they forgot about him as the last episodes where coming...

But I'm still a HUGE fan of PGSM... Even if sometimes the DRAMA inside was a bit too much overexaggerating.
 
#50
What sad about Nephrite is that he didn't get in PGSM a conclusion to his story... Which is quite sad because every other ones got one, Jadeite offering his eternal love to Beryl, Kunzite dying protecting his master, Zoisite by protecting the princess. With Nephrite, it seems they forgot about him as the last episodes were coming...

But I'm still a HUGE fan of PGSM... Even if sometimes the DRAMA inside was a bit too much overexaggerating.
Yeah, that sucked how Nephrite never got a conclusion to his character arc in the live action series. The last we saw of him in civilian form, he was buying something for Ami.
 
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#51
Yeah, that sucked how Nephrite never got a conclusion to his character arc in the live action series.
Yeah it a big miss, specially because PGSM was so good from the beginning to close every arc stories... I never understood what happened exactly maybe some problem with the power to be and the actor... no idea.
 
Feb 8, 2021
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#53
I really don't like that Neherenia Arc scrapped the Eternal Senshi uniforms of the Guardian Senshi and Chibiusa, I guess that fits with the 90s Anime backstory of Galaxia better since Usagi is hinted to rank higher than the other Princess Senshi in the manga where Galaxia is in the 90s Anime and Chibimoon having a star in her Eternal form hints that Usagi/Sailor Moon is ranked higher than Chibimoon and Kakyuu as Sailor Senshi in the Manga and that would not make sense in the 90s anime.

I like the Eternal outfits a lot.
 
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Tsundereshipper

Lumen Cinererum
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#54
It is ambitious indeed, the problem is the execution as always. I’ve just finished reading it and from my point of view the last arc emphasises in the worst sense the manga flaws. Naoko Takeuchi, through Sailor Galaxia, destroys Usagi’s world so that Usagi can get it back afterwards as a reward for saving the day by using the silver crystal.

Usagi is too perfect, except Luna earlier in the story, nobody scolds the main character for her actions, either good or bad choices because she’s the princess. She’s got loyal friends that cannot be allowed to grow up and they sacrifice themselves for her (sometimes Usagi doesn’t care), a handsome prince, a royal background, a future (she holds onto it too much to face some menaces), a daughter, a magical gem that does wonders… and when somebody takes all that away from her or Usagi doesn’t get away with something, she becomes depressed or gets in a paddy! She doesn’t experience arguments with her friends (and among the Inners there isn’t any either), doesn’t undergo a rupture, and so on. She’s selfish, focused on herself and always justified by everyone for what she does, even when she’s wrong. To top it all Usagi speaks to Galaxia as if she knew everything about life, giving lessons she hasn’t experienced.

I conclude that the Sailor Moon manga transpires the Naoko’s immaturity as an artist. After checking her biography I saw she’d done a handful of romance stories before Sailor Moon, 80’s shoujo short stories, where the absolute protagonist is a teen girl and it seems even in those stories the main character is not well developed. Sailor Moon is too big, colossal, ambitious for an author that lacked maturity in her profession.

I hardly believe a work like Sailor Moon (manga) caught the hearts of everybody around the world back then. So I’m looking forward to see the Anime, everyone says it’s different and checking the staff info there are many recognized writers and directors involved in the production.

What I read in the final chapter was that Usagi gets married, we can see the palace, her crown, she achieves her dream in comparison, she’s happy, she’s pretty, and the others just get dressed as brides and are happy for her. Hotaru is still a child, so it hasn’t been so long since their reincarnations. I think that says it all.
That's why you dislike Stars? Because you got out of it that Usagi was too perfect and had too happy an ending? Funny I had the exact opposite feelings as you. I don't know how anyone could call the Stars arc of the manga a completely happy ending when it's revealed the Senshi (yes, including Usagi) will continue to fight, die, reincarnate, fight, die, reincarnate and rinse and repeat because they are Sailor Crystal holders and so they can never truly be normal girls, they will always beholden to their destiny and Chaos will always be coming back in some form because it being a failed star, seeks the Sailor Crystal which Usagi holds. The only other alternative they have to truly escape this cycle would be to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron itself but doing so would end the existence of all life itself in the universe so Usagi really doesn't have a choice.

You taking issue with the fact that Usagi makes that grand speech to Galaxia when she's never experienced any of it--- UMMM SHE'S LITERALLY LIVING THROUGH IT RIGHT NOW! She's been part of endless wars, did her past 4 big battles mean nothing? (To say nothing about the literal war she lived through during the SilMil in the past which led to her suicide) She has experience with being the holder of the universe's most powerful Star Seed which everyone is continuously after and blames her for, which the Stars arc itself delves deep into. Usagi's whole life across two lifetimes has been one big tragedy after another where she's never able to just live, simply because she had the "luck" of being born with the universe's strongest Sailor Crystal, and it's confirmed her future will continue to be full of tragedy what with the existence of Sailor Cosmos and the future she comes from.

The Stars arc ending is bittersweet at best and downright horrifying at worst, I suggest you read this thread I made awhile ago because it seems to me you didn't "get" Stars and overlooked some important subtext in it. Sailor Moon was the first Magical Girl Deconstruction

If anything the Stars arc is an exercise in throwing Usagi off her pedestal rather than continuing to uplift her.

As far as your other points go I personally find Usagi more of a "perfect" character in the 90's anime, in the 90's anime she's portrayed as the epitome of purity with barely any negative emotion, sure this is offset by her flaws but the flaws are really more superficial tacked on flaws like "Oh she's clumsy or bad at school, isn't that cute? tee-hee" rather than any serious personality deficits that she needs to grow from. Whereas in the manga at least she has a dark side to her and it's acknowledged and explored and something she learns she needs to grow from. Don't you remember her extreme jealousy of Chibi-Usa in the Black Moon Arc? That was never glorified and she was shown to be in the wrong there with it finally culminating with a realization within herself when she was at her lowest when faced with Demande & Black Lady's methods that love can't be forced, that we all want our special someone to ourselves but we have to understand that their love has to be freely given and we can't just monopolize them to the detriment of everything else.

I know you said you have yet to watch the 90's anime but 90's anime Usagi by contrast never learns such a profound lesson like this, we never get deep into her psyche to explore the hidden darkness in it, her jealousy of Chibi-Usa there is more played just for laughs and she's otherwise treated as the paragon of Purity. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate both versions of Usagi but I'd definitely say that Usagi in the manga is a much more well-rounded and deeper character, while Usagi in the anime is a much more stagnant and shallower character and therefore comes off as more "Sueish" then her manga counterpart ever does.

Now I'd like to address your problems with the Dream arc because I realize I forgot to cause I wanted to know first what problems you had with Stars, but here's my response to each of your points.

"Why did Ami, Makoto and Rei remember a conversation with Setsuna, Haruka and Michiru respectively that never took place? The pace of the Infinity arc story never gave space for these conversations and interactions to happen"

You're supposed to infer that none of the arcs are as short as they appear to be and that this all happened offscreen. Unfortunately Naoko was strapped for time so she wasn't able to fully flesh out the arcs and make them as long as she would've liked. If you'd like better context on this point I'd recommend you read the Princess Kaguya short story (and all the short stories really, they truly do go a long way in better characterizing the girls) it's a side story which the 2nd Sailor Moon movie is based on and it takes place during Infinity. During the story we see Haruka, Michiru, & Setsuna being quite cozy with the Inners, working together with them and even having been invited to Minako & Makoto's double birthday bash.

See this never rang strange for me because I first read the manga through the old Tokyopop/Mixx editions and there they didn't separate the short stories into their own collections. The Kaguya story was volume 11 right before the start of the Dream arc and chronologically labeled as volume 11 right after volume's 10 wrapping up of Infinity so I was able to get the gist right away come Dream that the Inners & Outers became close sometime during Infinity. I imagine it was probably more awkward for those who first read the later editions of the manga like the Kodansha version which separated the short stories into their own separate collections.

"One of the praises of this saga is the great character development of the supporting cast. But what I saw was how the bad psychological depiction kept going. The Inner Senshi dreamt about being a soldier, protecting their princess and saving the world rather than dreaming as human beings. The author kept treating these characters as a piece or a tool to move the story, like something disposable, also maintaining that cold Princess - slave relationship forged in their previous lives."

Like I said before, read my thread on how the Sailor Moon manga is meant to be a deconstruction. These girls acting slavish to their Princess and being seen as tools in conflict with their own dreams & personal aspiration was a deliberate writing choice, yes you're supposed to think this is bad and horrifying and that they're being treated poorly. I would recommend another readthrough of the manga, also read the Sailor V manga as well which serves as prequel to Sailor Moon and better contextualizes this.

"Another aspect that gets a lot of praise is the human forms of Rei's crows and the cats. It's fine. But why now? I mean, the author had 3 previous arcs to do so. As a reader I need an explanation.
Again, they've got the ability to turn into humans, but why now? Because potatoes? To move the story? A convenient plot device? It's ok... but not good, and doesn't benefit the narrative."


This does get explored in Stars though, its part of the specific alien races they belong to. Phoebus & Deimos are part of a humanoid-crow hybrid race hailing from the planet Cronis and the cats are Mautians which is a humanoid-cat hybrid race.

"Who's Zirconia? Suddenly she disappeared and in the final battle Nehellenia turned into her? Nehellenia is Zirconia? It's not clear."

Yeah this is definitely a valid criticism. One way I interpreted it is that Zirconia is meant to be Nehellenia's Chaos form manifested in pure, physical form.

"The enemy is boring. I know, almost all the enemies in Sailor Moon are boring. But at least former antagonists like Tomoe or Demande had different motivations than being a Beryl rip-off. Nehellenia just came from the dark side, therefore she is evil. That's all."

She gets more personality in the 90's anime, so if you're looking for that you'll be pleased on that front (One thing the 90's anime tends to do objectively better than the 90's anime is it's villains, barring a few exceptions like Beryl & Galaxia who are actually downgraded in depth in the 90's) but I personally find her actual backstory much more interesting and intriguing in the manga. Her background in the 90's anime in comparison is a mess lore-wise.

"The final battle"

No arguments there, one of the main weaknesses of Naoko that's almost universally recognized is that she moves way too fast pacing wise and isn't that good at paneling.

Never in all of the 90s anime there wasn't even a hint Minako x Rei. In fact when u think about it they were probably the ones that interact less and don't have many scenes just the two of them. Nothing beyond some promotional artwork. The 90s anime was focused on Yuichiru and Rei. Rei was obviously heterosexual and interested in boys in the 90s anime. So was Minako. Even in the manga we have like one suggestive moment that is blown out of proportion. I am not homophobic in the slightest, just both Rei and Minako in the manga as well as Sailor V were with established interest in men. Casablanca Memory shows that, so does Rei's nightmare in her dream arc. As for Minako - countless guys in Sailor V. Most likely it could have been the case in the Sailor Moon manga if Naoko had more time dedicated to each if the girls. Even the parallel story, which is not canon, but still is a nice look into the feature, shows them as married to some nameless guys. Some people really took one image and created this whole ship, which most likely wasn't intended.
Rei is actually probably bi in the 90's anime considering how much subtext she gets with Usagi and how big of a Usagi/Rei shipper Ikuhara was. Also you're wrong about the fact that Reinako is being extrapolated just based on that one "we don't need men" panel in Stars. There's plenty of other little hints such as in the short story when Mina goes to Rei's school for a day, and then also at the end of Stars during the UsaMamo wedding there's a panel where Minako & Rei are holding hands that comes right after a panel showcasing HaruMichi hand-holding, signalling to the reader that we're supposed to draw parallels between these two pairs, and of course PGSM itself is just one, big fat ship tease for Reinako and makes them practically canon.

Also just because Rei & Mina are both shown to have interest in men in the manga doesn't mean they can't be a thing, bisexuality exists, which Naoko obviously acknowledges subce you're clearly supposed to view Usagi as bi in the manga what with her interactions with Haruka.

I do think Minako is probably straight in the 90's anime though.
 
Mar 12, 2021
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#55
That's why you dislike Stars? Because you got out of it that Usagi was too perfect and had too happy an ending? .
No, that’s why I don’t love the manga overall. I like it, however there’s a lot of wasted potential because of a suboptimal writing.

The Stars arc has many ideas thrown in awaiting to be developed, concepts created in one panel and dropped on the next page, characters meant to get killed without any real function in the story, others just provide information about something and then get murdered by another disposable character. The rest of the sagas have the same problem, though in Stars it’s more noticeable along with being Usagi-centric. I gave my opinion about her, I’m not gonna change my mind, I see your point and I agree, but your reason does not exclude mine.

I know the final isn’t sweet and happy, precisely I love the message of Stars. It’s about life and for everybody. I love how Naoko relies on asian philosophy and the way she handles the “Destroy everything to get it reborn afterwards because there’s always hope and future” thing. Very Lao-Tse. :booze:

My biggest problem with the manga is the narrative. I remember reading dialogues, then stopping and staring at the pictures attempting to grasp Naoko’s intentions. That’s the thing, in a well written manga you don’t have to stop at every second to try and see what’s happening or the thoughts the character has at that moment (I used to guess thanks to the facial expressions because Takeuchi didn’t always write them down, especially in the first arc) or the actions Naoko didn’t draw.

It’s good in content, bad in execution. It’s a comic, and I had the impression I was playing a game in which I had to find out what the author wanted to tell.

You're supposed to infer that none of the arcs are as short as they appear to be and that this all happened offscreen. Unfortunately Naoko was strapped for time so she wasn't able to fully flesh out the arcs and make them as long as she would've liked. If you'd like better context on this point I'd recommend you read the Princess Kaguya short story (and all the short stories really, they truly do go a long way in better characterizing the girls) it's a side story which the 2nd Sailor Moon movie is based on and it takes place during Infinity. During the story we see Haruka, Michiru, & Setsuna being quite cozy with the Inners, working together with them and even having been invited to Minako & Makoto's double birthday bash.
I read that story and didn’t fit well in Infinity. Everyone had already got those heart-shaped brooches, and when they got them after Super Sailor Moon introduction, Chibiusa died and all of them went directly to the battle against the Death Busters. There’s no gaps in the story where all those imaginary conversations the Inners had with the Outers can take place.

Like I said before, read my thread on how the Sailor Moon manga is meant to be a deconstruction. These girls acting slavish to their Princess and being seen as tools in conflict with their own dreams & personal aspiration was a deliberate writing choice, yes you're supposed to think this is bad and horrifying and that they're being treated poorly. I would recommend another readthrough of the manga, also read the Sailor V manga as well which serves as prequel to Sailor Moon and better contextualizes this.
And I understand your point. But at the time the Dream arc was being written Stars hadn’t been planned yet. Imagine for a second that Stars doesn’t exist. All the guardians are just mere dolls, robots devoided of human lives and dreams. Although I got to finish reading the manga, there are people who don’t because they get bored halfway through it, they can’t relate to Ami, Makoto, Haruka, Rei, etcetera. There’s no a reason why they’ve got to like those characters. Why do they have to resort to short stories to know them? In Act 15 Naoko should have told us something about Rei, her motivations, dreams, whatever, instead of introducing a character like Kotono and the rest of the useless background characters who talk about aliens, for instance.

This does get explored in Stars though, its part of the specific alien races they belong to. Phoebus & Deimos are part of a humanoid-crow hybrid race hailing from the planet Cronis and the cats are Mautians which is a humanoid-cat hybrid race.
Undeveloped concept as always and doesn’t answer my question. Why do they acquire human forms at that point and not before? Because reasons? Many things happen in this manga at plot convenience.
 
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#56
And I understand your point. But at the time the Dream arc was being written Stars hadn’t been planned yet. Imagine for a second that Stars doesn’t exist. All the guardians are just mere dolls, robots devoided of human lives and dreams. Although I got to finish reading the manga, there are people who don’t because they get bored halfway through it, they can’t relate to Ami, Makoto, Haruka, Rei, etcetera. There’s no a reason why they’ve got to like those characters. Why do they have to resort to short stories to know them? In Act 15 Naoko should have told us something about Rei, her motivations, dreams, whatever, instead of introducing a character like Kotono and the rest of the useless background characters who talk about aliens, for instance.
Stars had been already planned/outlined during the time Dream Arc was made and it is even hinted at in the Dream Arc, however, the originally planned backstory of Galaxia was changed when Naoko was writing it, the materials collection even hint at it.
 
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#57
Stars had been already planned/outlined during the time Dream Arc was made and it is even hinted at in the Dream Arc, however, the originally planned backstory of Galaxia was changed when Naoko was writing it, the materials collection even hint at it.
In that case, weren't Mars and Venus Crystals supposed to be inside Rei's and Minako's bodies?

I like Galaxia even though her story is a little bit... shallow? thin? It's a shame because this character is brilliant and deserves a deeper background.
 
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#58
In that case, weren't Mars and Venus Crystals supposed to be inside Rei's and Minako's bodies?

I like Galaxia even though her story is a little bit... shallow? thin? It's a shame because this character is brilliant and deserves a deeper background.
Because their Crystals are inside their Sailor Power Guardians, this case if Galaxia kills the Senshi, she just needs to target the Sailor Power Guardians, in their case, I think the Solar Sailor Senshi live on the earth rather than their own planets compared to the Starlights and other Senshi that is why the Sailor Power Guardians have their Sailor Crystal.

I just hope Crystal elaborates more on Galaxia's backstory.
 

yaya_ikuto

Lumen Cinererum
Jan 16, 2018
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#59
No, that’s why I don’t love the manga overall. I like it, however there’s a lot of wasted potential because of a suboptimal writing.

The Stars arc has many ideas thrown in awaiting to be developed, concepts created in one panel and dropped on the next page, characters meant to get killed without any real function in the story, others just provide information about something and then get murdered by another disposable character. The rest of the sagas have the same problem, though in Stars it’s more noticeable along with being Usagi-centric. I gave my opinion about her, I’m not gonna change my mind, I see your point and I agree, but your reason does not exclude mine.

I know the final isn’t sweet and happy, precisely I love the message of Stars. It’s about life and for everybody. I love how Naoko relies on asian philosophy and the way she handles the “Destroy everything to get it reborn afterwards because there’s always hope and future” thing. Very Lao-Tse. :booze:

My biggest problem with the manga is the narrative. I remember reading dialogues, then stopping and staring at the pictures attempting to grasp Naoko’s intentions. That’s the thing, in a well written manga you don’t have to stop at every second to try and see what’s happening or the thoughts the character has at that moment (I used to guess thanks to the facial expressions because Takeuchi didn’t always write them down, especially in the first arc) or the actions Naoko didn’t draw.

It’s good in content, bad in execution. It’s a comic, and I had the impression I was playing a game in which I had to find out what the author wanted to tell.



I read that story and didn’t fit well in Infinity. Everyone had already got those heart-shaped brooches, and when they got them after Super Sailor Moon introduction, Chibiusa died and all of them went directly to the battle against the Death Busters. There’s no gaps in the story where all those imaginary conversations the Inners had with the Outers can take place.



And I understand your point. But at the time the Dream arc was being written Stars hadn’t been planned yet. Imagine for a second that Stars doesn’t exist. All the guardians are just mere dolls, robots devoided of human lives and dreams. Although I got to finish reading the manga, there are people who don’t because they get bored halfway through it, they can’t relate to Ami, Makoto, Haruka, Rei, etcetera. There’s no a reason why they’ve got to like those characters. Why do they have to resort to short stories to know them? In Act 15 Naoko should have told us something about Rei, her motivations, dreams, whatever, instead of introducing a character like Kotono and the rest of the useless background characters who talk about aliens, for instance.



Undeveloped concept as always and doesn’t answer my question. Why do they acquire human forms at that point and not before? Because reasons? Many things happen in this manga at plot convenience.
that's why like some said would have been better or good they animate the extra story's as ovas or specials, like they did some in the 90s anime, mh they could add some of that plot line
yeah for me the only thing is what happen when they give them that recommendations,
but i think the other things could be, because of power in the eternal movies when usagi power up to eternal they could finally change to humans, i would be much convenient but maybe with the power ups they unlock more memories from the past and remember hers castles, and they are princess
well i think some said about the senshi been like usagi slaves or usagi force them, that's not true because they decided to continue on with the battle wanting to save the world
and well some uf them actually live their lifes, like makoto maybe having a thing with mamoru kohai, and rei keep the work with her studies and even that help her more making predictions, and ami keep studing, they even enter high school we dont know more about the story except pararell sailor moon
and well in crystal we have a hinch on luna human form
 
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#60
well i think some said about the senshi been like usagi slaves or usagi force them, that's not true because they decided to continue on with the battle wanting to save the world
The problem with the princess-slave relationship is that the author didn't decide on the approach she wanted to take. For example, in the first arc the girls are nothing more than battle partners. Most of their meetings were held in the command centre to talk about the enemy or the mission they had to accomplished. Once the princess had awoken, Usagi started being treated as The Master. After defeating that ridiculous black fart / gas creature called Queen Metalia, Takeuchi tried to sell that there is a deep and true bond of friendship between the girls to the reader by illustrating a panel where the girls warmly hugged each other. It's not believable.

If the author wanted to show us the existence of a princess-slave relationship, that's fine. However, I think she should've been more consistent about it. It is impossible for the Senshis to change their relationship from one panel to another. Naoko didn't show the reader how those powerful bonds of friendship were forged and that she insisted so much on. The kind of friendship she tried to represent needs a maturing process.

You taking issue with the fact that Usagi makes that grand speech to Galaxia when she's never experienced any of it--- UMMM SHE'S LITERALLY LIVING THROUGH IT RIGHT NOW!
I forgot.

I reckon you shouldn't compare Sailor Galaxia's years of solitude to Sailor Moon's sudden loss. As I said Usagi had it all. When Galaxia takes everything away from her, Usagi gets in a paddy, and decides to get everything back to be happy again. The loneliness that Galaxia experiences is deeply ingrained compared to the unexpected shock Usagi gets. And as I said, Usagi has never cared about her "friends", she has never experienced arguments, breakups, nobody said anything every time Usagi was wrong, how could a spoiled girl give moral lessons to someone who was suffering more than her?
 
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