Is there a double standard regarding Naoko as a mangaka?

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Do you think there’s an unfair double standard being applied to Naoko

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 57.7%
  • No

    Votes: 11 42.3%

  • Total voters
    26
Aug 16, 2014
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A lot of Sailor Moon fans around the world would love to get a complete and faithful redub in their own language. Hell, some of us don't even have a subbed version. So the notion that the new dub shouldn't exist sounds absolutely bonkers to me.
It's a weird notion.A lot of people wanted a new dub version.In fact we never got stars.
 
Aug 16, 2014
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The reason why people don't care about the Tokyopop version of the manga being out of print is two-fold.
  1. Fans don't care as much for the manga in general.
  2. Prices for the out of print books are at least for now...reasonable. (likely due to #1)
The fans who do want to read the manga are usually looking for a more an authentic experience and are self-selected to prefer authenticity. Generally, reading is a semi-active experience in that you actually have to actively look for what you want to read.

Likewise, people don't go on "tirades" about PGSM because PGSM was not for them. PGSM aired on TV in Japan in a format for a Japanese audience that would be impossible to localize as is. It was never presented to be for a Western audience.

By contrast...the old English-language anime was literally put in the faces of Canadian and American fans. In an era of streaming and serialized viewing this may be hard to remember, but once upon a time, watching TV was a very passive experience. Yes, there were schedules and such, but basically, you turned the TV on and something was automatically playing for you (it still works like that now). For most really old-school fans who were not anime junkies, we didn't go, "Sailor Moon sounds interesting, I'll check it out." No, for many of us, it just happened to be something that was on the TV that day, we saw it, we liked it, then it was on again and we liked it.

That means the Sailor Moon fans who generally preferred the old dub aren't fans who wanted to seek out new experiences but were fans who got hooked because that show was on TV and grew to like it out of sheer exposure. And the vast majority of those fans, once the episodes stopped coming on TV, stopped liking the show. That's perfectly fine.

But when you wait well over ten years between the end of the old dub and the start of a new one (and nearly 20 years after the dub first started airing), long enough for Sailor Moon to become a nostalgia project and for the TV watching landscape to change, people who do remember Sailor Moon from their childhoods want to see that version. They don't want to see a version that looks like the version they remembered but is different. It's like changing the recipe but calling the product the same thing in a revival campaign. Of course people will be less than happy because people's memories and experiences are being deliberately messed with, and with the old version only accessible through non-mainstream links, it will be not only forgotten but replaced with memories of the new version.



First of all, since Naoko Takeuchi has control of the franchise, ALL of our opinions are meaningless. Even if you were her best friend and knew everything about her, your singular opinion is meaningless. We're all equal in that regard.

Next, you don't have to personally know someone to make an informed opinion about them. Let's suppose you have a job at a major company with a CEO. Let's suppose the company is very profitable and strong, and the CEO is rewarded for his efforts. Let's suppose the CEO announces everyone in your department to take paycuts and work twice as hard for half the pay. Are you trying to say, "You don't know the CEO so you can't have an opinion on him?" Please. I don't care if he donates his salary to charity and volunteers his time to help the unfortunate, he's still an awful person to do that to employees. Even if as an employee you can "leave" it's still a scummy thing to do. And, yes, I would not like a CEO who did that to other people even if I didn't work under them.

But aside from that, even if our hate is based on a "strawman" that doesn't make it invalid. You later state that I'm denying the reality of her existence (and if she exists as a person, she's a valid target for hate), and in fact, I'm going to skip ahead because what I wrote above applied to your next two points.

But I don't have the anime I like as there is no fandom. Everything that surrounded that anime -- and that fandom which surrounds it is a part of it -- is gone because you and Takeuchi took it from us.



I disagree. If that apple pie recipe was a success and a cultural touchstone, it would be supremely arrogant to not acknowledge that the apple pie was enjoyed and then instead force those same people to eat a cherry pie when they were previously served an apple pie. If people eat an apple pie and like it, even if it's not intended, then you serve them the apple pie.


She should have respected the work of localizers in all regions, not just the US, as she has also interfered with the dubs of other countries. Otherwise she's suggesting that she's the center of the world, and she's not.



Because it was the first dub. Artistic integrity is irrelevant. It was released first and is what people saw and that should be respected.

When old video games are re-released as virtual ports and not remakes, everything typically remains the same as when it was first released. The same is generally true of movies to the point where it's controversial when edits are made to later editions. If someone is remaking a game or a movie, that's a different story. Again, localize Sailor Moon Crystal by 2010s standards since that's a remake (and likewise the 2010s manga was a new edition, so a new translation was appropriate) but they should have left the old anime stay dead.

Plus, Toei is the one who signed off on the censorship, and not in a passive way, either. Toei didn't just have to approve DiC's edits. Toei, as Cloverway, was the later license holder. The whole "cousins" thing may have been recorded by Optimum, but TOEI is the one that endorsed it. Note how the old manga translations, while having its own issues, was not censored the same way even when it used "dub names?" Because that was handled separately.

It's not Toei...it's PNP. Naoko.



Who are you to say someone is overly attached to anything, as if there's a single way to be a perfect fan?



I thought you said the hate wasn't based on reality. Now, you admit it is based on reality by acknowledging her existence instead of a strawman whose name appears as the creator of Sailor Moon. If we don't know her in reality, then I can project whatever I want on her. If she is a person, then I have a reason to hate her for her existence. Simple.



Now who's strawmanning? I want the material that was released in my market to be available in my market when re-released. I don't want new material put in place of the material I saw. It's not entitled to want what you had before. That's basic human experience. Giving people different things when they're expecting the same thing destabilizes and disorients people and purposely causes confusion to the point where they cannot even trust their own experiences.

I'm not backpedaling. My point is that if you just accept that Sailor Moon as a franchise isn't and never will be about the one version you like, and if you simply engage with things you like and disregard things you don't instead of demanding reality to bend to your liking, then you wouldn't be acting entitled anymore, and you'd be a lot happier to boot.


None of the fans of the original version did this when the dub was airing or even after it stopped airing/ And guess what? They did get reality to bend to their liking, so their "entitlement" paid off, The squeaky wheel gets oiled.




The redub is the only thing rewriting history. Sailor Moon was Serena in the English version and now people pretend Sailor Moon was not Serena.




No, it doesn't. It doesn't exist as "Sailor Moon" what people think of and see when they look up the television show, and people aren't directed to it when looking up Sailor Moon episode.

Funny, before there was a redub, people claimed that we "needed" a redub so the next generation could see what the show was all about. Never mind that people could look up the subtitled version of the show even when Sailor Moon was unlicensed. People wanted the anime licensed and dubbed. They weren't happy with the show being dead. So why should fans of the dub that was in existence just roll over when you stole what we had? You got the redub by "whining." Again, the squeaky wheel gets oiled.





Also, there is an important difference between never having something and losing what you had. Generally, the latter tends to hurt worse.
Why I like the dic dub.I think your ignoring a few factors here.The dub for all purposes was dead before Viz liscensed it.The dvds went out of print, and they did not even finish stars.Why it's true toei did sign off the changes.Were not sure who is running toei now.
The biggest other factor is that most fans.Whrn I was online did not like the dub anyway and did not consider sailor moon Serena anyway.A lot people consider sailor moon the original Japanese version and not the dub.Why should not the redub happen?

I think it would be worse Naoko did not let the redub happen?IIts not disrespectful for allowing another redub to happen.Because fans want it.

I think it unhealthy to hate someone because.A version of a dub is still not being reprinted and new redub was made.Nothing is being erased, and everyone knows the dic version of sailor moon started the USA fandom.
 
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PGSM being broadcast internationally or not doesn't matter to me; it was used as an example for the fact that it exists at all. The point being made was people shouldn't consistently or actively engage with things they don't/won't like (my example was me not necessarily liking PGSM), especially if it's going to be such a source of an issue for them if it isn't already. Though I believe that's not to be confused with something like critiquing art and having an opinion for it or giving an opinion on a story if someone wants to share what they think (e.g.; again, I feel the animation for Seasons 1 & 2 of Crystal was poor enough to be just that distracting for me, whereas I preferred Season 3); but there's a difference in that compared to some of the derogatory posts I've seen that are derogatory simply for the sake of being derogatory (obvious jokes aside) and sometimes quite hateful. I know it's a Sailor Moon forum so of course it seems amplified in a bubble but some posts border on being so nasty to Naoko (if not outright) that it's almost laughable as much as it comes across as bizarre.
Couldn't have said it better myself! Overall, even if I am one of those who prefer Crystal Seasons 1&2 to 3, and even if my favorite adaptation is the live action series, I agree with you and I think we're able to agree because we're not trying to impose our likes and dislikes on the rest, we appreciate different things in our own way and that's okay.

I think these are two plausible reasons, but they are not the two primary reasons. The two primary reasons, I feel, are:

1: The TokyoPop manga is a legitimately bad translation and the artwork is flipped. Yes, Western manga readers (in general, not just Sailor Moon fans) do regularly prefer authenticity, and these two aspects speak to that. Me personally, I think the TokyoPop manga is charming despite being a terribly flawed product, and I sometimes go back to enjoy it when the mood strikes me.

2: Scans and downloads are available online.
I think it's important to note that these two reasons can also apply to why some people might not care about the DiC dub being out of print. It was also a legitimately bad translation and entire episodes (and a whole season!) were missing or edited out. This does not speak ill of its own merits or charm, or the validity of people liking it, but it just didn't attempt to translate the source material so it is a bad translation in that sense. Likewise, downloads and streams are available online (and really, they're very very easy to find, just be more specific when Googling!), so you can still watch it and it's not a big deal for most.

Going by this logic, you are not defined by the people around you. You are defined by your *reactions* to the people and situations around you. And you can always choose to react differently. [...]
Who cares? You can easily access it. Why does it matter what other people think? Enjoy the show, enjoy your memories, enjoy watching it again and again if you'd like.
Great points and I think allowing yourself to react negatively to inconvenient situations is at the core of this. It feels wrong to keep discussing the feelings of others so I won't, but I will insist that it doesn't sound healthy to allow yourself to be bitter and hate others you don't even know when you could just enjoy the things you like. Isn't resisting hate and bitterness and keeping it positive a leitmotif in this very series we're talking about, no matter which version or dub? Just something to consider.

A lot of Sailor Moon fans around the world would love to get a complete and faithful redub in their own language. Hell, some of us don't even have a subbed version. So the notion that the new dub shouldn't exist sounds absolutely bonkers to me.
Also something important to consider... this is why I argued it was entitled to insist that the DiC dub should be a priority. It's a big world and lot of us had different dubs and experiences about our access to the series, and if we're meeting on an international forum it feels strange to be told that I'm wrong because I don't think the English dub should be PNP's priority. I'm not bringing my own nostalgia into everything I say and I guess I just wasn't expecting others to do so.
 

Memento

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Mar 8, 2012
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In fairness, even though the old English dub is fairly well available online, it's not necessarily always available in the best quality or on the most reliable sites, so its accessibility is limited for fans who are concerned with viruses or legality, etc. An official, legal, HQ, remastered release would be ideal and as much appreciated by fans as the new dub (etc.) is. (And even if the materials for the old dub are incomplete, or doing a remaster would be too expensive or whatever, there's no reason why Viz couldn't just throw the show onto their official YouTube page, or add it to PlutoTV.)

That said, I do also think that's a very materialistic, capitalist perspective, that the way to celebrate and preserve the legacy of the original dub is by making it available for purchase. Unless a miracle happened, the people who actually worked on that dub would not receive royalties from a re-release, so I don't know how much they'd really care. The fact that so many of the voice actors have been invited to conventions, invited to do panels and podcasts and interviews --- that they've gotten their overdue recognition and flowers --- I think that's what really matters.
 

JayD22460

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Dec 20, 2011
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Well it’s somewhat a progress because last week, criticizing Naoko and the way the franchise was handled was « HATEFUL » :luna:
I can’t speak for last week and of course business/writing/art critiques are something very different, but I think people literally saying they “hate” Takeuchi counts as “hateful” lmfao. But who knows if they mean it or not. Hate is such a strong word, that has become a relatively neutered word.
 

Clow

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Jul 29, 2012
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I agree that hate is a very strong word and feeling.

Another aspect to consider is that people would have felt unhappy, irrespective of PNP and VIZ’s decision.

(A) If the DVDs had been re-released with the DIC dub and format, fans would have been unhappy. Many fans wanted a new dub. And even with VIZ delivering a product that in my opinion felt close to what fans wanted… there are still fans who are unhappy.

(B) Because VIZ created a new dub and dismissed the previous existence of the franchise, then yeah, again, the fans of Sailor Moon, the fans of the Sailor Moon experience that existed in the 90s, felt unhappy.

But what must be considered is that people would have felt unhappy, no matter if A or B won.

If VIZ had kept the DIC format, then a lot of people would be unhappy and complaining and demanding a new dub. I think the VIZ dub is great (personal opinion) and sometimes I read tweets of people complaining about it.

I grew up with many dubs (Portuguese, Spanish, original) and as far as the 90’s anime goes, I would prefer the Spanish and Portuguese dubs.

Being a manga purist, my favorite format is Crystal and I like the original Japanese dub.

I do hope that someday the DIC fans get an official release, so that they can “get their franchise back.” Meanwhile, I think the best solution for everyone is to find a way to co-exist.
 
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They could have chosen to dub the Stars first then the other arcs later.
 

Masquerade

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I think I understand the frustration because season 1 (classic) is my favorite season, the first anime I watched, and I would like to have the Portuguese dub… just like it was presented to me.
Toei stated that they could never recover it from the first licensor in Brazil. Basically, it's lost since the 90s.
What makes everything worse is that they literally left three of the four seasons whose dubbed audio they own (R, SuperS, Stars) ROT and they don't even bother at least subtitling the rest. They announced new dubs at least twice since 2017, and it never happened :lol:
 

Lady Pen

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Toei stated that they could never recover it from the first licensor in Brazil. Basically, it's lost since the 90s.
What makes everything worse is that they literally left three of the four seasons whose dubbed audio they own (R, SuperS, Stars) ROT and they don't even bother at least subtitling the rest. They announced new dubs at least twice since 2017, and it never happened :lol:
Should we use our unhealthy behaviour to find the person at fault? :dance:
 

Clow

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Toei stated that they could never recover it from the first licensor in Brazil. Basically, it's lost since the 90s.
What makes everything worse is that they literally left three of the four seasons whose dubbed audio they own (R, SuperS, Stars) ROT and they don't even bother at least subtitling the rest. They announced new dubs at least twice since 2017, and it never happened :lol:
The woman who voiced Serena/Usagi in the 90s had the perfect voice. It is truly a shame that the Portuguese dub from the 90s has been lost forever. I watched a few scenes of the S dub in Portuguese and I didn’t like it (personal opinion, of course). If I had to watch the 90’s anime, I would possibly choose the Spanish dub (it has some aspects that remind me of my original Sailor Moon experience, e.g. Zoisite being a woman) or the VIZ English dub.
 

Masquerade

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The woman who voiced Serena/Usagi in the 90s had the perfect voice. It is truly a shame that the Portuguese dub from the 90s has been lost forever. I watched a few scenes of the S dub in Portuguese and I didn’t like it (personal opinion, of course). If I had to watch the 90’s anime, I would possibly choose the Spanish dub (it has some aspects that remind me of my original Sailor Moon experience, e.g. Zoisite being a woman) or the VIZ English dub.
You can watch it in a pretty good quality through Project Nostalgia. It's lost through official means, not between fans.


I also have a strong dislike for "Serena's" Brazilian replacement actress. She is basically our Linda Ballantyne, but with a voice that actually suits a teenager.
 
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Nadia

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I have been reading this thread back and forth…

and my understanting is that fans of the DIC dub do not merely wish to keep their Sailor Moon experience to themselves… they wish to share their Sailor Moon experience with other fans.

If you are a millennial and you live in North America, then you probably caught Sailor Moon on TV and you fell in love with that particular experience. And it’s not only the dub or the magazine… boomers defined how Sailor Moon would be consumed in North America (they made decisions for you). For example, they didn’t like the Japanese dolls and decided to create their own.

To summarize, I think what she is saying is that in the past Sailor Moon was more commonly accepted as a localized American show: Serena went to an American school and Darien worked as a model to afford his tuition, but as time progressed that old Sailor Moon experience was replaced with a new one … and it became more and more difficult to share that old experience with other fans.

I think that is what she is saying. Of course, I apologize if my interpretation is wrong.

:kero:
Your interpretation is mostly correct...

I will say that while it was accepted by those who looked at it on TV and did not dip their toes into the fandom, many of the same people who claim that being critical of Naoko Takeuchi were just as harsh, if not harsher, on the old dub and those invovled in producing it. There was no "let people watch what they want to watch" back in the day. Instead it was "dubbies die" or "you're not watching Sailor Moon properly" and all sorts of hate for the dub and its fans. They were fine with people writing whole fan sites about why the dub is awful, but as soon as even a hint of the vitriol is directed at Takeuchi, people throw up energy shields to protect someone who's making money off them.

So, I don't want to get into this too deeply, but I really want to challenge some of what I'm seeing here.
Going by this logic, you are not defined by the people around you. You are defined by your *reactions* to the people and situations around you. And you can always choose to react differently.
No, you are defined entirely by people's reactions to you. For instance, if people give you money, you're rich. You do not define yourself. Collective reactions define others. The only thing you can choose to do is to not add to collective hurt.


I found them fairly easily (maybe because my search turned out to not be nearly as broad as "sailor moon episodes"), and while I would honestly love to direct anyone else interested to them, the forum has rules against what I'm sure are all and any forms of pirating and I doubt it'd be an exception for me to post any links here.
That's my point. You have to pirate, which means it's not accessible. Not everyone either wants to or even can sail the high seas. I want the dub to be as accessible as it was to the lowest common denominator. I'll never have that and I will always resent Takuechi for her hand in making sure that specific version was withheld and a new one took its place.

I'm bowing out now because I've derailed this thread long enough, and there are other issues one could criticize Takeuchi for (like how her lackluster skill at arranging manga panels to tell a story).