Is there a reason the '90's made Mamoru such an asshole?

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Nov 16, 2016
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#42
Don’t get me wrong, I love Minako in the 90’s anime, she is the funniest and my favorite character—but the Minako that we see in the 90’s anime is not the same Minako that we see in Crystal and in the manga.
She is the one we see in Sailor V. Even in the dramatic final chapter she's back to being cheerful in the last few pages.

that was the 90s i remember much of the super s episodes when that happen and in some of s and r
but in the manga when usagi know it was her daughter she didnt do that, and in 90s we have the fight over and over again between chibi usa and usagi, most that episode when some girl was interest in mamoru, chibi usa said was her girlfriend and usagi was angry or the super s movie she have to ask mamoru who he loves more puf
and even angry because chibi usa and mamoru go to buy a t-shirt
jealous of who give mamoru takoyaki in s well in that time mamoru at least told them to back off
Those were comedy scenes and weren't meant to be taken seriously. Also, speaking of the SuperS movie, remember when she asks Mamoru if she loves her more than Chibiusa and realizes it's a dream when he replies "yes?" That scene actually lead to some meaningful growth.

Again, I really don't understand the double standards manga purists have. Anime!Usagi and Chibiusa bickering like sisters throughout the show's lighthearted moments gets picked apart, but Manga!Usagi saying stuff like "even if she's a child, she's still a woman!" in a dead serious scene doesn't.
 
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Jul 29, 2012
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#43
Also, speaking of the SuperS movie, remember when she asks Mamoru if she loves her more than Chibiusa and realizes it's a dream when he replies "yes?" That scene actually lead to some meaningful growth.
SuperS annoyed me so greatly that I did not even watch the SuperS movie.

but Manga!Usagi saying stuff like "even if she's a child, she's still a woman!" in a dead serious scene doesn't.
Because—in my opinion—it has depth. Chibiusa is a child, but wants to be a woman just like Usagi is, as explained in the Dream arc.
 
Nov 16, 2016
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#44
SuperS annoyed me so greatly that I did not even watch the SuperS movie.
That's your problem.


Because—in my opinion—it has depth. Chibiusa is a child, but wants to be a woman just like Usagi is, as explained in the Dream arc.
That doesn't really explain or excuse Usagi seriously acting like Mamoru is about to date a prepubescent girl. If Mamoru is an asshole for some scenes in the early 90's anime, then Usagi doesn't see anything wrong with pedophilia in the manga.
 

CrystalBard

Lumen Cinererum
Nov 19, 2020
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#47
I thought Usagi’s behavior towards Chibiusa in the manga is interesting. Usagi, too, is a kid. She may have super powers, but she is still a middle school student, she is still a girl wanting to enjoy life like any human being, and she suddenly realizes that she has to share Mamoru with a kid—and that the kid is her daughter.

By the end of the Black Moon arc, Usagi is no longer the kid she once was; she has matured, she is a mother, and in the manga, specifically, she acts and behaves like a mother.
All of the Sailor Guardians grow and develop. Rei and Mina go from loners to team players. Mako reveals her softer side. Ami gets more confident (even confident enough to face the enemy one on one.) Chibiusa even gets some development. I know this will get me burned at the stake like a witch in Medieval Europe, but I think Crystal has better characterization.
 
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#48
Alot of biased views here
Why can't we all just agree to disagree?! I like some elements from the manga, others from the 90's anime, live action, musicals, etc. Each iteration has brought something new to the table.
 
Nov 16, 2016
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#49
My apologies if I came across as rude.

My views about the 90’s anime—and specifically SuperS—are my own and do not reflect those of others. I am a fan of many episodes of the 90’s anime, but I like the manga better.

Again, I am sorry if I sounded aggressive.
Don't worry, you're fine!
Likewise, I didn't mean to sound aggressive either. Sorry about that.

We're all allowed to like and dislike what we want.

Why can't we all just agree to disagree?!
True. It's only when fans don't do this and start the whole "it's morally wrong to like this" thing that it becomes toxic. I was trying to show how pointless it was with my manga Usagi example, but it ended up adding fuel to the fire and I apologize for that.
 

Tsundereshipper

Aurorae Lunares
Jun 17, 2019
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#50
I feel he was treated quite good in the latter seasons honestly.
I'm the opposite, he at least had some semblance of a personality in the first 2 seasons (as jerkish as that personality was) from S onwards he became stale and felt more like a dad to Usagi than an actual boyfriend.

To be fair, he wasn’t treated fairly in the manga, either. He was the protagonist‘s Prince and loved one. He was brainwashed a lot. He was given some attacks and a chance to shine in the Dream arc—and that’s it.
To be fair, Mamoru as a character was always meant to be a reversal on the damsel in distress trope and the "token chick" archetype you commonly see featured in old Superhero stories. Sailor Moon, being the very feminist and girl-power series that it is played around with these tropes so in return we get a franchise that puts the girls front and center in power while the boy serves as "just the love interest" for a change.

Then we see him in the first part of R, memoryless, and while he's not as much of a jerk in that part, he's still not Mr. Personality, either. (What do Usagi and En see in him?). If the deleted material is anything to go by, a big part of the reason why he "chooses" Usagi is due to him regaining his memories...but what type of a choice is that if it's made based on his past life?
This is also something I feel the second part of R dropped the ball on. His excuse for breaking up with Usagi was valid (We shouldn’t date just because we were lovers in another lifetime) but it ended up just being an excuse and he never actually believed it it was just him wanting to protect her from a bad omen that turned out to be a test from his future self because...reasons? (I kinda liked that the DiC dub originally implied Wiseman was responsible as that would have made a bit more sense)

We kinda sorta see Usagi and Mamoru bond in the babysitter episode and the last two episodes of the Ail/En arc but even then its so underdeveloped we have no reason to believe these two would date if not for getting memories of their past lives and the opportunity to have Mamoru fall for Usagi for who Usagi is not who he and Usagi were was just squandered so bad.
This right here is why I could never buy them as a couple in the 90's anime and was always very "meh" about their romance in general. In the 90's anime at least it really does come off like Mamoru is only together with Usagi out of "destiny" and she wouldn't be his first choice if he had any say. A

Again, I really don't understand the double standards manga purists have. Anime!Usagi and Chibiusa bickering like sisters throughout the show's lighthearted moments gets picked apart, but Manga!Usagi saying stuff like "even if she's a child, she's still a woman!" in a dead serious scene doesn't.
As Clow said before, the difference is that plotline was used as an obstacle to help Usagi grow. Usagi is only 14 years old and was heavily sheltered both in her past and current life, it's heavily implied that Princess Serenity in particular was extremely immature (hence the suicide) so it should only be natural that Usagi would experience some negative feelings over the prospect that she's suddenly not front and center in everyone's lives for once, especially with her very first boyfriend who she just managed to get back from death and who had to wait over a millennia in order to finally be together again. Whereas Usagi's "jealousy" of Chibi-Usa in the anime is treated as just a joke and the same schtick keeps repeating itself over and over again for the sake of "humor." (You'll also notice in the manga, that as soon as Usagi deals with her insecurities and jealousies and gets over them she and Chibi-Usa never really fight over Mamoru ever again and she begins acting more motherly, showing clear signs of growth)

This is another thing that makes the Manga/Crystal version of the Black Moon arc overall superior to the 90's anime (again, except for most of the villains) Usagi actually grew and underwent significant character development. Were the pedophilic and incestual undertones stemming from Usagi's jealousy creepy? Undoubtly, but at least it helped facilitate Usagi's growth and she learned an important lesson regarding the forcing of love when confronted by Black Lady and Demande as opposed to the 90's anime where she was pretty much entirely stagnant as a character for the entire R season and learned nothing.
 

morri

Luna Crescens
Jan 8, 2021
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#51
ok Iagree, I have only found it on tvtropes and a blog that Kunihiko Ikuhara dislikes tuxedo mask. It would be a good reason for getting shafted like he did though. I love Manga (and eternal) mamoru who has at least some more to contrbute that ahem lengthening sticks.
 

Tsundereshipper

Aurorae Lunares
Jun 17, 2019
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#52
90s Mamoru >>>>> manga Mamoru cmon now
I'm not sure how anyone can think this, early Classic-Makaiju arc Mamoru maybe I could see, but 90's anime Mamoru as a whole? Where he's always shoved into the background, made into a jerk and gets little to absolutely no development when compared to his manga self both battle-wise and personality wise?
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#53
ok Iagree, I have only found it on tvtropes and a blog that Kunihiko Ikuhara dislikes tuxedo mask. It would be a good reason for getting shafted like he did though. I love Manga (and eternal) mamoru who has at least some more to contrbute that ahem lengthening sticks.
tv tropes is often inaccurate and completely clueless. Seriously its worse than your average wiki. It is by no means a valid source.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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#55
According to one twitter's user post;
In Animage when 90 anime was on the air, Ikuhara and Tomita talked about "They didn't have scene a confirmed their feelings for each other, it would look like they were only together because of their previous lives, regardless of their current efforts, so we made a development where Mamoru rejects Usagi to prevent that from happening".
Tomita also said, "Both are still in love with each other as they were destined to love each other from a previous life, but I feel like that's not true love".

However, they were too busy with the making of R Movie, it's almost neglected to do so.

Anyway, Animators wanted to give them time to reflect on each other regardless of their previous lives. It's not that Ikuhara really dislikes Mamoru.
 
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B sizzle

Lumen Cinererum
Dec 26, 2021
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#56
I did not mind the way he was in season 1 but I feel like they should have kept it going. I liked the whole ranma and akane vibe going. They went from fighting like those two to being lovely dubby to him leaving her to getting back together then they are lovely dubby.

After season 1 they really struggles with his character.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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#57
I do feel a certain one of frustration with the way 90s Usagi and Mamoru's romance was portrayed, but I'm not saying it was bad.

Reason why Mamoru abandoned Usagi was to protect her from danger.
I think Mamoru was recreating Endymion's situation that ”Can't be with Serenity but can't stop loving her".
90's Endymion was more active in love and went to see Serenity, Serenity was killed in a romantic entanglement over Endymion. so Endymion may thought that Serenity was killed because he fell in love with her. It’s not surprising that Mamoru thinks he and Usagi's love will ruin Usagi (Don't forget to Mamoru knows he really almost killed Usagi when he was brainwashed).

Usagi is everything to Mamoru, he lost his family when he was very young. He hadn't been deep with anyone before meeting Usagi (maybe), Endymion's will in himself did not let him have a girlfriend (maybe). To Rei, he was an unfaithful boyfriend.
When Mamoru abandons Usagi, it also means that he abandons his happiness. This is also connected to the theme of Ikuhara's anime, self-sacrifice. Learning who Chibiusa was, Mamoru learned their future was bright.

Neo Queen Serenity and King Endymion may not have experienced Black Moon Clan's attack, King Endymion may have interfered in their romantic relationship to factor in changing their future.
 
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Dec 18, 2021
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#58
I don't think 90's Mamoru was an awful person at all. Mamoru treated Usagi like a kid until he learn she was Sailor Moon.
If Dark Kingdom had not shown up, it would have taken years for them to fall in love. I personally think that animators wanted to express this in some way.
 
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Lady Pen

Lumen Cinererum
Mar 12, 2021
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#59
According to one twitter's user post;
In Animage when 90 anime was on air, Ikuhara and Tomita talked about "They didn't have scene a confirmed their feelings for each other, it would look like they were only together because of their previous lives, regardless of their current efforts, so we made a development where Mamoru rejects Usagi to prevent that from happening".
Tomita also said "Both are still in love with each other as they were destined to love each other from a previous life, but I feel like that's not true love".

However, they were too busy with tha making of R Movie, it's almost neglected to do so.

Anyway, Animetors wanted give them time to reflect on each other regardless of their previous lives. It's not that Ikuhara really dislikes Mamoru.
Interesting. If Animage magazine said so, it should be true. It seems they wanted to portray a real relationship and strengthen it. As I said in another thread, at the beginning of R, episode 60, Usagi & Mamoru were a weak couple. They only had a previous life in common, a confrontation was necessary. In the episode 64 Usagi realised what she liked more about him and Mamoru states during the entire series why he loves her, to be more precise in the first season, SuperS and Stars. So, they were not always leaning on the so called Miracle Romance.

We don't know what happened between King Endymion and Neo Queen Serenity, but they've been together for enough centuries to assume they're a more mature couple.
 
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Tsundereshipper

Aurorae Lunares
Jun 17, 2019
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#60
Interesting. If Animage magazine said so, it should be true. It seems they wanted to portray a real relationship and strengthen it. As I said in another thread, at the beginning of R, episode 60, Usagi & Mamoru were a weak couple. They only had a previous life in common, a confrontation was necessary. In the episode 64 Usagi realised what she liked more about him and Mamoru states during the entire series why he loves her, to be more precise in the first season, SuperS and Stars. So, they were not always leaning on the so called Miracle Romance.
According to one twitter's user post;
In Animage when 90 anime was on air, Ikuhara and Tomita talked about "They didn't have scene a confirmed their feelings for each other, it would look like they were only together because of their previous lives, regardless of their current efforts, so we made a development where Mamoru rejects Usagi to prevent that from happening".
Tomita also said "Both are still in love with each other as they were destined to love each other from a previous life, but I feel like that's not true love".
If this is what they were really going for then they should have used the excuse Mamoru gave at the beginning of the Break Up arc as the actual reason (“Why should I be your boyfriend just because we were lovers in the past?”)

Amazing that this was their train of thought and they had the actual compelling and sensible plotline right under their nose and they still chose to go for the completely asinine and nonsensical: “Threats from King Endymion in order to “test” their love, because reasons.”


I do feel a certain one of frustration with the way 90s Usagi and Mamoru's romance was portrayed, but I'm not saying it was bad.

Reason why Mamoru abandoned Usagi was to protect her from danger.
I think Mamoru was recreating Endymion's situation that ”Can't be with Serenity but can't stop loving her".
90's Endymion was more active in love and went to see Serenity, Serenity was killed in a romantic entanglement over Endymion. so Endymion may thought that Serenity was killed because he fell in love with her. It’s not surprising that Mamoru thinks he and Usagi's love will ruin Usagi (Don't forget to Mamoru knows he really almost killed Usagi when he was brainwashed).

Usagi is everything to Mamoru, he lost his family when he was very young. He hadn't been deep with anyone before meet usagi (maybe), Endymion's will in himself did not let him have a girlfriend (maybe). To Rei, he was an unfaithful boyfriend.
When Mamoru abandons Usagi, it also means that he abandons his happiness. This is also connected to the theme of Ikuhara's anime, self-sacrifice. Learning who Chibiusa was, Mamoru learned their future was bright.

Neo Queen Serenity and King Endymion may not have experienced Black Moon clan's attack, King Endymion may have interfere in their romantic relationship for factor in changing their future.
If this was the case they should’ve done a better job at implying that the whole “test” thing was a bs excuse and that this was just a manifestation of King Endymion’s insecurities and guilt over putting his wife in danger bubbling to the surface.

They didn’t so we’re expected to take his “test” explanation completely at face-value, which reads as incredibly dumb because if Endymion is already married to Serenity then he should know himself how strong their love is and wouldn’t need to “test” their past lives.