Naoko’s aversion to gay men?

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MariaTenebre

Systema Solare
Jul 22, 2009
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#21
Honestly I think a better argument would be to say that Naoko Takeuchi might hold Misandrist views in general as opposed to a specific hatred of gay men. Especially as she very much likes many gay male fashion designers. Really aside from Mamoru and certain male villains no male character is of that much importance. The only one I think that could be of importance would be Helios but really he is also just Chibiusa's future love interest.

Naoko Takeuchi even said I believe that she liked weak men so she could dominate them. I think this would speak more of a general apathy to men then otherwise. I mean if a man said the reverse he would have been cancelled ages ago. Unless he was in a protected group that wasn't a Cis Het White Christian Man.
 
Feb 8, 2021
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#22
Naoko Takeuchi even said I believe that she liked weak men so she could dominate them. I think this would speak more of a general apathy to men then otherwise. I mean if a man said the reverse he would have been cancelled ages ago. Unless he was in a protected group that wasn't a Cis Het White Christian Man.
I think it is also important to note that Takeuchi inspired more lesbians to write manga and helped the birth of modern Yuri genre.
 

MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#23
I think it is also important to note that Takeuchi inspired more lesbians to write manga and helped the birth of modern Yuri genre.
Yup she sure did and Haruka and Michiru are probably in many ways two of the best known Yuri couples in the world.
 
Likes: kasumigenx
Feb 8, 2021
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#24
Yup she sure did and Haruka and Michiru are probably in many ways two of the best known Yuri couples in the world.
Many Yuri series also lack male cast as well, which I think is an influence from Sailor Moon and Marimite.
 

foenyanko

Solaris Luna
Sep 21, 2010
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#25
Naoko Takeuchi even said I believe that she liked weak men so she could dominate them. I think this would speak more of a general apathy to men then otherwise. I mean if a man said the reverse he would have been cancelled ages ago. Unless he was in a protected group that wasn't a Cis Het White Christian Man.
She seriously said that?
::eeklez:
 
Likes: kasumigenx
Jul 5, 2009
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#27
Just because the author doesn't feature enough gay men for you doesn't mean she is "averse" to them or finds them distasteful. That is a ridiculous jump in logic there, hun. Obviously Takeuchi just prefers to focus on female relationships. Cancel Takeuchi! LOL
These days almost anything can get cancelled. Just look at Pepe Lepew and a few books by Dr. Seuss. XD
 

MariaTenebre

Systema Solare
Jul 22, 2009
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#28
I wish that instead of cancelling cartoon characters we could I don't know cancel certain ideologues of certain political and religious faiths that actually promote more insidious ideologies.
 

Boro

Solaris Luna
May 19, 2012
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#29
Does she have a distaste for them?
If she has a distaste for them, then she must hate the sick from the bottom of her heart, making the spartans who threw the sick children off cliffs look egalitarian by comparison.

sheesh.

Is your name Karen?
I'm sure the Karen National Union (KNU) appreciates using their name as an insult. However KNU officials are probably busy with more pressing issues, such as their bases being bombed by the junta, or their people being turned into refugees. But I have high hopes that once the civil war they are fighting in is won, they will be able to send their regards and respond in kind.
 
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MariaTenebre

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Jul 22, 2009
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#30
Boro you know Karen is used as a name for the archetype of the obnoxious annoying White Woman be she on the right or on the left and people who act like annoying White Woman wanting to speak to your manager, complain and censor anything they don't like or be nuisances like making false police calls, false assault charges, false rape charges, call the police on Black People just having a picnic or anyone they don't like and who just in general act a entitled mess in public. I have lived in the South and have known numerous Karens in my life usually of the more bigoted Christian sexist, racist and homophobic woman so I am very happy that this type of woman is finally getting the hatred she deserves along with people who laugh like her and believe me almost every hyper religious Southern White Woman is a Karen. and are absolute annoyances to be around. I have quite a few of them in my family especially on my dad's side.
 
Likes: Dazer12

Zyvik

Lumen Cinererum
Oct 26, 2014
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#34
I can kind of see the point that maybe she doesn't like men that much, since Mamoru is like the only dude in the manga, who isn't a raging dillhole.
which is funny how the original anime had him be sorta like that, in the early parts.
Artemis, Helios, Motoki, Asanuma, the Shitennou...
 

MariaTenebre

Systema Solare
Jul 22, 2009
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#36
Huh. Now I'm stupidly curious what her reaction would be to some of my fanart... O.o
I will say from many of your fanart pieces I do like the alot especially your OC Death Busters group. The Death Busters are my favorite villain group and Eudial is one of my two favorite villains alongside Sailor Galaxia in Sailor Stars. I even wrote something in my story tieing the Death Busters and the Tau Galaxy aliens to Sailor Chi and Sailor Phi.

Likewise I have made many female and male villains in my story including male Senshi. I even thought about doing maybe a spin off team in another nation with a 5 Man band male Senshi team. I was sort of inspired by Saintia Sho a Spin Off of the Shonen Magical Boy series Saint Seiya to have a Magical Girl series with a 5 Man Band Female cast.
 
Likes: kasumigenx
Mar 25, 2008
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#37
Zoicite and Kunzite being a thing, Saphir’s heavily implied more than brotherly feelings for Demande (and his for him?), Fiore’s whole character, Fish-Eye being gay, all of these were 90’s anime inventions and are little to non-existent in the manga
This is one of the reasons I love the 90s anime so much. They took her characters and gave them all personality which lacked in the manga. These particular characters who were changed gay gave a diverse mix and allowed people like myself who is gay to feel they could be themselves.
 
Feb 8, 2021
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#38
Naoko Takeuchi does not talk on Twitter, respects her fanbase, and focuses on her merchandise line and licenses, she is better than J.K. Rowling in that way.
 
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Dazer12

Lapis Lunaris
Apr 5, 2014
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#39
If she has a distaste for them, then she must hate the sick from the bottom of her heart, making the spartans who threw the sick children off cliffs look egalitarian by comparison.

sheesh.



I'm sure the Karen National Union (KNU) appreciates using their name as an insult. However KNU officials are probably busy with more pressing issues, such as their bases being bombed by the junta, or their people being turned into refugees. But I have high hopes that once the civil war they are fighting in is won, they will be able to send their regards and respond in kind.

Wut?
 
Jun 17, 2019
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#40
Naoko created four queer male characters, all of them villains: the Amazon Trio in the manga and Banane for the SuperS movie. She describes all of them as "okama," a very politically incorrect word meaning an effeminate (gay) man who cross-dresses. (The word is roughly analogous to "tr*nny" in English.) It's also worth pointing out that the main villain in Toki*Meca was also revealed to be a transwoman. Naoko's issue doesn't seem to be with "gay men" then, so much as with transwomen / gender-nonconforming men.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think Naoko is some gross transphobic trashhole like a certain British bigot. Rather, I think that, like a lot of Japanese people, Naoko was very ignorant about trans identities and thoughtlessly replicated a lot of ignorant and harmful tropes in her work. It's been 12 years since Toki*Meca ended. Since then, Naoko's been interviewed by a transwoman journalist, a transwoman singer recorded covers for the 20th and 25th anniversary tribute albums, a transwoman played Kunzite in The Super Live, and a recent video game collaboration featured a non-binary model and had a campaign that seemed to center around the idea of inclusivity. I hope that this is a sign that Naoko is now a lot more educated on what it means to be trans and that, if she ever writes another manga, she won't portray trans people as villains, gag characters, or use gender reveals as plot twists.

(I've also never heard the rumor that Naoko designed Fiore before and I'm 100% certain that's not the case as she's said she had no involvement in the R movie, Fiore is just a modification of Ail, and his design doesn't match Naoko's aesthetic sense.)

ETA: I also want to point out Zoisite, who disguises himself as a woman on two separate occasions. That doesn't necessarily indicate anything about his sexuality or gender identity, but it does further play into harmful tropes about deceitful / villainous trans(women).
I haven't read all of the Material Collection notes yet so I had no idea that the Amazon Trio were meant to be gay in the manga. Tigers Eye & Fish-Eye in the manga at least always read as straight to me since we only ever see them attempting to seduce women (then again they have such limited screentime in the manga to begin with that that might not mean much)

I knew Naoko had a penchant for drawing crossdressers/transwoman as Hawk's Eye, Zoisite & Nephrite all cross-dress to various degrees in the manga but that's still not the same as being a gay male. It's a common misconception but not all transwomen who transition were originally attracted to men, lots of them are gynephilic and while Naoko might've written transwomen characters she still has yet to write actual cis gay male characters. (Though according to her notes the Amazon Trio are meant to be gay supposedly?)


Just because the author doesn't feature enough gay men for you doesn't mean she is "averse" to them or finds them distasteful. That is a ridiculous jump in logic there, hun. Obviously Takeuchi just prefers to focus on female relationships. Cancel Takeuchi! LOL

Oh and another thing....what do you mean when you say Takeuchi didn't "bother" to make a male character gay? Her art, her choice, I say. Clearly she was pretty liberal-minded person given the other relationships in the series and, you know, her art. Is your name Karen?

I wasn't trying to make a moral judgement either way, just making an observation and pointing out how odd it is that the 90's anime made a good portion of her male villain characters gay or bi yet Naoko didn't want to go along with that.

I find this line of thought kind of funny because to this day, despite widely available information and more out and outspoken LGBT+ folks are out there, cis writers often take flack for their representation of anyone LGBT+ due to ignorance, stereotypes, etc.

To this day LGBT+ acceptance is nowhere near as far along in Japan as it is in much of the west, and oftentimes the attitude there is it's best to just not speak of things that are considered outlandish or outside the 'standard.' Japanese, as a whole, are raised to stick with the standard and not draw attention to themselves, of course with some exceptions.

So I don't find it hard to believe that a very young woman (20s) in the very early 90s in Japan simply didn't have much knowledge or perspective of gay relationships between men. She's definitely someone who wrote a lot of her work based on personal knowledge - look no further than the Astronomy and geology/chemical constant references and plots.

Hell, she didn't write much about men, period. Except for Mamo, hardly any male appears in the manga who isn't there simply because there's either a woman they're somehow tied to present, or was just present, or about to be. Doesn't mean she's anti-man, that's just not the focus of the manga.
You make a good point. Maybe Naoko herself is bi and that's why she felt more comfortable writing about female homosexuality? Though she certainly had no qualms with writing about men who crossdress & transwomen despite her not being trans herself.

It's really not that unusual. Many people have no problem with lesbians but despise gay men. I'm not claiming she does, but it might be the case.
Usually the only people who have no problem with lesbians but hate gay men are frat boy dudebros.


This is one of the reasons I love the 90s anime so much. They took her characters and gave them all personality which lacked in the manga. These particular characters who were changed gay gave a diverse mix and allowed people like myself who is gay to feel they could be themselves.
Yes these are one of the changes I strongly prefer that the 90's anime did as well, not only did it improve their characterization and helped queer men better emphasize with the show by giving them representation but it also introduced really great shipping dynamics & couples which is always a welcome bonus.
 
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